Dear D/M 2 - 3 boys,

Good to hear from both of you and glad to see the 'progress'. It is you know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

As for the OW, well her true colors will come out and it won't be pretty. Time will tell so that you can see what the rest of us are already seeing.

The A is not a pretty sight yet in the fog, that is all some can see. If you can understand this D2-3boys, the fog is clearing and you are getting back your sense of reason.

Keep up the good work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OW is patient, she will bide her time and not give up, she is trying to get me jealous now. I still have the urge for a fix but at least I know now it is just that. OW is feeling betrayed and soon may come reprisals and or threats </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, that is true! Take it from me, my friend, that day is coming when you are going to see parts of her you never thought existed. "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!" My OW told me every day how much she loved me, cared about me, couldn't imagine life without me, was proud of me, would never lie to me or hurt me. Then the day came when I realized our A had to end. She turned into a monster that still keeps me up all night. You are going to be amazed. You are going to be incredibly hurt. You are going to feel like the biggest fool in the world. You don't have to believe me now. Just wait.

But this will be a positive thing for you and your marriage. You will see her true colors and you will be glad you did not sink further into the sand with OW.

Just be prepared. Like me, you may even lose some of your faih in humanity. I mean, if love (or whatever it is) can turn into hate, and a great friendship can turn two people into enemies ... then is there nothing sacred anymore?

I am on anti-ds because I am so incredibly hurt still. I am p all night sometimes and can't think straight because I can't believe someone I cared about and trusted and believed and was friends with turned into such a monster. It has changed my life; however. Yes, I am less truesting of "strangers" now, but I am now involved with Amnesty International, some of my political views have changed, I am much more understanding and sympathetic to others, and I now try to do as many GOOD things as possible because I want to be the exact opposite of her.

Imagine if people tried to be as GOOD as they could be instead of being as BAD. What a great life and world we would all have, huh?

Good luck!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by whiteknight:
<strong> [QUOTE] ....Oh, that is true! Take it from me, my friend, that day is coming when you are going to see parts of her you never thought existed. "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!" My OW told me every day how much she loved me, cared about me, couldn't imagine life without me, was proud of me, would never lie to me or hurt me. Then the day came when I realized our A had to end. She turned into a monster that still keeps me up all night. You are going to be amazed. You are going to be incredibly hurt. You are going to feel like the biggest fool in the world. You don't have to believe me now. Just wait.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow WK, your OW sounds a lot like PBR. You sure you weren't seeing her or her twin? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Whenever the OW (PBR) thought she was losing (I stepped out of that A game long before - the nutty OW was playing by herself), she would try to pick a fight with me by sending me e-mails or making hang up calls to my work, cell and home #s. Her last straw was sending me an e-mail while I was on vacation at my parent's telling me she was sorry to hear my mother was dying. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I was furious. I called the WS and told him to keep his plane ticket and go live with the OW. A major boundary for me was to get her out of MY life. I wasn't the one having the A why did she need to contact me? Welp, because she was losing hold of the WS (he choose to come home) and she told him she was going to make my life miserable. Well she sure tried but I didn't give her that satisfaction. I later saw her in court when she tried to bring RO charges against the Xws. Xws asked me to go as a support for him and I did. OW tried to look like the victim. Instead she looked like a woman scorned and did a poor job of being a victim. The judge even told her that her story was poor at best. The RO was granted because he realized they both needed to stay away from each other.

Her true colors showed. She wanted to apologize to me (that is how she headed her e-mail) but within a few sentences I had to read words like (H loved her more but had to go back to his family, H wanted to put in her gate so he did and they said they would always love each other, etc.).... you see how Ows can be? Quite dangerous characters when they feel they have been betrayed. Doesn't matter that they are betrayers also. For some dumb reason they feel it is their right to ruin others lives and that the BS owes them an apology. Oh yea, I was told I had to apologize to her (via an e-mail to the then WS). I told him to tell her to take a hike, I did nothing to apologize for and would not apologize to the like of a 'creature like her'. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

The point is watch for those OWs claws. The female gender of this population don't fight clean, they sometimes play quite dirty.

Protect yourselves.
L.
ps: Not all of the female persuasion are bad ya know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Originally posted by dadto3boys:
easier said than done

Most things that hold great value and worth are "easier said than done". Like college. Like Med school. Like parenting. Like keeping a family together.

I still feel zero at home except for the family as a whole, the romance has been absent for years though(way before the A started) What about that?

That is 50% your responsibility.

Romance involves effort.

After an affair, the romance is MORE your responsibility. Why?

because....

You've wounded your wife! Her womanhood is very tender. She's been rejected.

Be a man. Show her some empathy and some compassion.

Your selfish tryst robbed her of her sense of safety in her own bed ... and desecrated her sense of desirability.

The reasons you strayed are unimportant right now.

Selfish withdrawl will not heal your marriage and protect your family from divorce.

OW says go ahead, go back and "make the best of it" like I have been for years. It will be worse she says but that is YOUR choice.

Wow. Sounds like she's a real expert at long-term relationships! (sarcasm)

This comment by OW is telling. It says her views about marriage and family are:

Marriage vows are not sacred.

Hard times means reduce your efforts.

Families hold a lower priority to emotional feelings.

Selfishness before hard work.



I need time away from her for sure but she may be right too

She has an agenda.

Her remarks are not those of a woman with honor.

Her remarks may be those of someone with habitual conflict avoidance tendencies.

She's got an ax to grind.

Not words of compassion or wisdom to offer your suffering children.

Puke!

Pep
( an RNP with years of experience .... I teach residents!)

Originally posted by dadto3boys: "She said no one had ever made her feel the love she had for me "

Every single affair is just so special!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ALWAYS .... the love is "unique".

These are the lies affairees tell themselves to make infidelity "OK".

This is nearly universal.

"This would be wrong, except that our love makes sin so right."

~~~~~~~~~

And then you said:

" by getting to know her son I felt worse about missing my kids. "

You got to know her boy? You made her child a party to your adultery? Thus making adultery an acceptable choice to this child?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

This is harm intentionally inflicted upon another innocent child. ..... But OW was "OK" with this harm inflicted upon her boy .... because her feelings of being in love with a married man ... made her feel happy.

Her son's innocence sacrificed for her happiness.

What a woman! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Pep

Originally posted by dadto3boys:
I have a terrible streak in me that when I see myself as the bad guy I make things 10X worse on purpose to those I love to punish myself. I fear in a fight dowm the line this will happen, I forever have a criminal record in the court of matrimony, a convicted felon the moral highground is gone.

I LOVE this!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You have a flair for the drama.

and

You have the gift of introspection and self-insight!!!

Here's the great thing about this.

An opportunity to learn humility.

This is a very great gift, this opportunity.

Can you see this ---> that self punishment (ten fold worse ) is an act of arrogance <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Refusal to consider the possibility of forgiving yourself is also a hugely arrogant act! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Feeling that you require moral superority over your wife as a pre-requisite for marital bliss .... is supremely arrogant.

Contemplate true humility.

What does that mean .... humility...?

And how can humility guide you to forgiveness and redemption .... and therefore a renewal of self-respect and your position as head of the house....

hmmmmmm?

I think you and your wife are two really wonderful people.

She deserves the more humble soul that resides hiding behind all your drama. (although, I must confess .... the drama is amusing)

Your humility will open your soulful empathy. You will feel more alive than you ever thought possible! Your humility is a gate to a level of love for your wife you cannot imagine!

Here's a book I recommend to certain people .... and now you are among them:

"Passionate Marriage" .... by David Schnarch. It's a tough read. But one I believe will open your mind first, then your heart, letting free your humility and .... flood you with love for yourself and for your wife.

Pep

<small>[ April 12, 2004, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

DT3B,
I have read your posts and the ones in reply to you. You have gotten excellent advice! Despite everyone's best efforts you chose to disregard this advice. I sincerely hope you are not as arrogant as you portray yourself!?

You have shown very poor judgement in regards to your professional relationships at the NH.

You turned to the OW instead of your W...again poor judgement.

You do not seem to understand the concept of "boundaries".

I doubt your ability to make sound decisions with the best interests of your W, kids and yourself in mind. You would be wise to set aside your arrogance and take the wonderful advice that has been given to you.

All M's go through bad times but, not all individuals engage in A's.

You made a commitment on your wedding day. You have a responsibility to your W and your kids. Quit feeling sorry for yourself and do whatever it takes to fix this M! You do not have the right to walk away until you have done everything you possibly can to make the M work. If you wake up one day, look at yourself in the mirror and can honestly say "I have done everything I possibly can and it's still not working." Then D is an option. A M should end because the two parties involved did everything they could to make it work and it just wouldn't. It shouldn't end because of a third person.

Awesome post mgm, Dad, are you reading?

At this point, your W is the only one fighting for your marriage. You are spending your free time on the computer and neglecting her and your 3 sons. I only hear your concern for the son of the OW, have you forgotton that you are the FATHER of 3 boys who need you? Your concern for the OW's feelings and those of her son are seriously misplaced.

Your continued defense of the working relationship with the OW is sickening. I understand that money is a very powerful motivator, how much of that will you lose when you are paying child support?

I know this is harsh, it is intended to be. Wake up and be a responsible husband and father and give at least as much energy to your family as you do to your work. In the end, if you marriage fails and you have tried, you can hold your head up. Right now, you should be ashamed at your blatent indifference to your family responsibilities. We are trying to help you here, please try to help yourself.

<small>[ April 12, 2004, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Ladysing58 ]</small>

Ok I admit to supreme arrogance, always been that way, a coping strategy, defense mechanism I guess. My problem here is committment, still on the fence, that is what it boils down to. The OW is not the answer I know that just an easy escape from the hard work as you put it. Give it my best shot that is it? OK fake it until we fall in love again? I know time is running out.

What kind of response is this??

Committment? Are you unsure or what? What is the alternative? Infinitely floating around at sea pondering yourself and the situation? Ugh.Take a stand dad.One way or another make some progress here.It is infuriating when I read posts from WS's who seem incapable of just making a darned decision.It's going to be hard which ever path you choose but if you don't put the EFFORT and TIME into one or the other they both sink.

And if mom is like me,she is tired of the wishy washy fence sitting approach you have taken.If you are in the marriage now then dag nabit get to work! This isn't going to magically resolve itself over time.It's action.He** yes give it your best shot.What about this is NOT CLEAR? Your response to this thread now is quick and full of doubt.If you can't even take the time to seriously review what we have been trying to help you with on this computer it must be worse at home.

You know,I would like to think that you will NOT be one of those WS's that decides,"Well,this is too much work and hey I can't really even get started so,I may as well just throw in the towel and cut my losses".Then,each post becomes smaller and less frequent and then POOF,he's gone for good.

Then what.The OW starts looking more attractive again as a choice(puke) and then what has happened? You have started all over AGAIN.You can't even stop the phone calls to/from OW now so you are still in this A.I told mom that a few days ago.She is convinced(100% as she says) that you are not in an A.I don't buy it.Not now.Prove me wrong??

O

D23B's, you're wife and I are in very similar positions. If she feels anything like I do, then you are right, time is running out. Every BS has their limit. I don't know what your W's limit is. I know I am trying hard to stick with my H during this hell of withdrawal. I also told him recently the love bank is beginning to run a bit dry from this end. I also realize that it isn't all about him choosing me, but about whether I want to choose him. Let me tell you Dad, at this point in time you WS's aren't exactly the biggest prize in town. Maybe to the lovely OW's, but please! I am sticking with my H for many reasons. It still shocks me that I didn't dump him. But it is an act of will. And I know, just like your W, that whatever happens I have incredible strength. I will be Ok, and I'll have my integrity. If H and I don't make it maybe one day I'll end up with someone else. I can tell you, it will never be a married man.

As far as the work goes. When a couple behaves in a loving way, and learns how to communicate and deal with conflict, the M really isn't that much work. My H and I had actually achieved that. Then we had a year from hell, and OW waiting in the wings.

I hope you are thinking hard what your life will be like if you split up your family, whether you end up with OW or not. Do you really think the issues with your W won't resurface with someone else? Why not get it right this time with your W?

The reality that I realized about my H, and it applies to you also, is us BS's can't make you choose the right path. You have to get it yourself. My H is in IC now, and knows he needs it. If he gets the help he needs he will be a much happier person. I hope you can find your way so you can stop using things like arrogance as a defense mechanism. I am rooting for you. At least you are posting and I think trying to make sense out of your confusion. CV

Sorry Dad, the above post was written by me, not on the edge. I keep forgetting he logs in here now too!

Dad,

You are still in your affair...if not physically you are emotionally.

Your W loves you. She has stood by you. She does not deserve this.

Yes some of your colleagues have survived this kinda of scandal before, some of ours have too.
But will your marriage? You need to LEAVE that RH...I would insist that my H do it..you just dont S*** where you eat. And if you do...then prepared for the consequences.

This CRAP with the LVN trying to make you jealous
WOW..GAG ME !!!!!!...your jealous ?? you have so lowered your standards....That home is into this because ..seriously what are the chances that a MD would leave his family for a step up from a nurses aide??? Best story I have to match that is that I know a Doc that left his W for an Xray tech (a 4 year degree)...
Funny thing..I saw him a few weeks ago..he looked like he had aids...he doesnt BUT he looked like S***...he realized he made a mistake BUT his W was not as generous to give him another chance...He asked ME to talk to his W. I asked him what it is I was suppose to say to his W ?...he was desparate....WHY the choice was TAKEN from him

Tough for you control freaks...isnt it ?

Dad I was the potentional WS...Not the BS..
I understand the ego thing (I lived and worked with it for 20 years)..
It's the lack of RESPECT..you have for your family that upsets me so much..

Everyday you go there...you are disrespectful to MOM and your Boys..

I hope your W gets strong...really strong..

I hope for your sake she does not make the decisions for you...sure would take the fun out of that sail of yours...
Maybe if you and that OW and the rest home cronnies could just graduate High school (refering to this ....making you jealous crap) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
I hope those in your ER dont know...Cuz at least in MY ER (level 3 trauma) we would be laughing at you all not with you..

I know I need to stay away from your threads..
I just see you as pulling the wool over your family's eyes...If you were serious about saving your family...you would RESIGN...
AND YES YOU CAN...

I am sure it will be cheaper in the long run...

Disclaimer: I am new here..if Mods need to edit because I just am not buying into Dads excuses
then feel free...

Mom: I hope I dont hurt you...PLEASE KEEP WORKING ON YOU...for you..

D23B,
You and my H seem a lot alike. I don't know how M23B is coping. I just found out three weeks ago and am at the end of my rope. I gave my H and ultimatum this morning. Maybe I screwed up because I really love him, but I can't keep torchering myself. What is it that goes through a man's head. My H is very arrogant and will never admit he needs help, but right now, he is a mental case. He acts like he wants to be here one minute and the next he is on the phone with her. Is there anything I can do to make him want to stay?

Every time you skim over the replies you have gotten and ignore the innate message you insult every person who used their EQUALLY valuable time to reply to you!

No, grin and bear is not enough.
No, fake it 'till it works is not enough.

What is enough??

Enough, is doing everything you need to do to do your part to make the M work. It means being totally open and honest about everything. It means acknowledging what your A has done to the people who really know and love you. It means you get counselling with someone who can help you recognize why you did what you did and help you repair the part of your psyche that is in denial, defensive etc., etc.. It means you make the 100% effort to be present in your M and in your kid's lives. It means being responsible and accountable.

One thing that our MC told my FWH and myself during our MC was you'll never turn 90 wishing you'd made that extra million or that you'd worked 70 hours a week. You'll look back and wish you'd been there for the important family moments. Will the OW be there for you when you are 90?? Probably not. Do you want to have a great relationship with your kids when you are 90 and share great memories with them?? Probably you do. So, how does that happen? Hard work, my friend. Nothing is more important that your M and your kids, not the OW, not your job, nothing. Do you get it now??

One more thing.
I'm a nurse in a large hospital and I know what that environment can be like. I know you can always get a job somewhere else if it's important enough to you. Decide soon what your priorities are! As a nurse who is ultimately responsible for the good care patient's need I need to evaluate every physician's order I recieve. So, let me totally honest, you have lost alot of professional credibility and need to fix your M and then fix this. Don't kid yourself that your orders are being routinely carried out. As a nurse I can tell you that the nurses where you work are probably thinking you have shown very poor judgement and are scrutinizing every order you give.

Let the professional credibility go for now...your first priority is your M. I can tell you that resolving your marital woes would go a long way in proving to those you work that you can make sound professional judgements.

Originally posted by dadto3boys:
Ok I admit to supreme arrogance, always been that way, a coping strategy, defense mechanism I guess.

Or, a manipulation technique!

My problem here is committment,

What a huge crock! You already made a commitment. You vowed better or worse. You made 3 kids.

You problem is not commitment. Your problem is a selfiish character trait and lack of courage.

still on the fence, that is what it boils down to.

On the fence about what kind of man you'd like to be when you look in the mirror?

The OW is not the answer

Correct. Being a better you is the answer.

I know that just an easy escape from the hard work as you put it. Give it my best shot that is it? OK fake it until we fall in love again? I know time is running out.

It has been my experience that most affairs (of previously normally functioning adults) come as a result of a personal crisis ... an identity crisis.

So this "fence" you ride .... is one that will define who you are.

Your character.
Your courage.
Your morals.
Your reason for living.

Because what it all comes down to this this ...

What gives your life meaning?

Pep

Dad,
On the fence???What is that???
On the fence is when you are deciding if you want to pursue a new relationship or break it off with a girlfriend.

You are undecided about being a husband and father? That decision was made at the alter and in the delivery room, you can't go back even if you do not remain married to your W. You are a father, you are letting your own selfish desires decide the fate of 3 innocent children that you fathered.

I have read your posts and Mom's. You are not doing ANYTHING to make your marriage better but say that time is running out. Who's time? your children's? Are you just bored with the commitment thing and want something new and exciting? Look in the mirror and say that again and decide if you deserve the loving patient wife that you have. decide if you deserve to be the father of your children. You are acting like a spoiled brat.

Stop hiding behind your description of arrogance, it elevates you in your own eyes while diminishing you in your families eyes. You are selfish and weak. You did not get where you are as a doctor by being weak, it was all about you. You are a strong man who has tires of the responsibilities of life and want to cast 4 people aside in the wake.

Unless you decide to put your family before yourself, I hope that your W is ready to move on and build a life without you, she deserves better...

I have read a lot of responses of caring people who have taken the time here to try to help you and you have ignored every one of them. Your computer, race car and OW are not going to very valuable in the future, you are throwing away a precious family.

Ok, have you and mom filled out the EN questionnaires and LB questionnaires? If so, what have you found out is your biggest EN, and what is your biggest LB?

You want more excitement, and less stress? But wait a minute...these 2 things are complete opposites? You throw yourself into your work because it fulfills some strong needs. Could admiration be the big one? Mom is having a tough time admiring you because she is so full of resentment? time for you to have a talk with her about what your top 3 needs are and how she can fulfill them!!!

LB's, I'd be willing to bet your biggest one is independent behavior...same for my H too. Us womens need more of your time...not all of it...just more... You'd be amazed how 15 minutes out of an hour of undivided attention can make a difference. Or take one or two nights a week to completely devote to the family...or to mom! She doesn't need it all, but SH recommends 15 hours a week, and that's for a M not in trouble...

wow strong words, easy to type em. If all was well in the marriage I sure would not be here now would I? Ofcourse it is a crisis, the character issue? I have already crossed over that boundary when I knowingly and willingly had the A, I knew I was lowering myself then. Everyone wants me to do the right thing I KNOW WHAT THE RIGHT THING IS I AM NOT STUPID! The issue do I want to do it and for the right reason. I must WANT IT for it to work, yes my W wants it, yes she has done all she can do but if I do not learn to love her again it will not do anyone in the family any good period. I am trying and have made some progress with SH, I do see the flaw in the reasoning behind the A, I am distancing myself from it more and more. I do see the pain in my W eyes, the joy in my kids eyes, Tthis will just take time and alot of patience and changes on my part.

Dad I'm not here to beat you down or anything like that. I just had a thought because I was reading Mom's posts, I think that the thought of having someone else fill your shoes as a H and a father is what might have made you look into yourself to try and work on your M. If it was maybe you should think of that when the OW or the addiction gets to strong. I'm still glad your here and posting and trying. I could be way off base with this post and if I am I'm sorry, that's just my .02. I wish you luck dad hang in there I would like to see you and mom on the recovery board some day knowing that the sacrifices that both of you make to work on your M and all the hard work you guys will put in will pay off. Prayers to you dad.