Hello all. I have been reading a lot of posts lately, especially Tinman's letter. It brought me to tears, especially the part about the vision of his W walking thru the door to make things right. I have a "Jerry Maguire" moment fantasy myself.

Anyway, we went to see our therapist today (not a very good MC, we will need a new one if H decides to want to work on things) and I basically gave H an ultimatum. He is going on a business trip to the city where the OW lives and he told me he would see her. I told him today that if he sees her, if he can knowingly and willingly inflict that much pain on me then I will have to move forward. That I can no longer sit and wait for him that I must talk to a lawyer about a legal separation and work on getting over him. It is just too painful otherwise.

He just says he doesn't know what he wants and that he can't tell me he won't see her. So I guess that is that.
I have written a letter that I plan on giving him tomorrow before he leaves on his trip. Oh, one side note, he did take the "Surviving and Affair" book and said he'd read it. I haven't gotten thru it yet myself but I will buy a new copy.

Question is: how do you manage no contact with children involved? We are currently sharing custoday 50/50. I or he call every night to talk to the girls and either one of us needs to answer the phone as the girls are too young (1, 3, 5). Also, he will be coming to soccer games, etc. I said in my letter that I would minimize contact to only be about the girls... I initially thought we could do lunch as a family during "switch" days. But since he won't end contact with OW, I told him I didn't think we should do that and give me or the kids false hope. See, we have a good time when we are together. We are a good family, a good couple. He just doesn't see that. Sigh.

Help on this topic is much appreciated.

Tinman - I'm sharing a glass of wine with you now. Good luck in your resolve.

That is hard. I have done a terrible, really non-existant job of handling the Plan B scenario. WH will call me about finances, questions he just MUST have answered, or he will egg me on with some sort of insult, action contrary to our agreements, etc. And I even gave him a detailed spreadsheet of all our finances, who would pay what, what the balances were, what was expected of everyone. I also recapped for him in writing what his visitation schedule was, who he was supposed to pick up where, AND HE STILL will call me to "verify" he is supposed to get the kids on a given weekend. JUST BAIT to pull me back into contact, and it is never easy. If you want a case study of why this thing must be done right, than just check my last 3-4 posts. Horrifying tales of emotional abuse, childish behavior on behalf of my WH to instagate conversation, serious damage done that I don't know if I can get over it, etc. And I have failed miserably. I have not effectively conveyed the important message that I AM moving on, that I will no longer tolerate his TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE actions, and that he better get his **** together or lose me. And I will pay for this...as it will be that much harder for WH to believe that I mean business from this point forward.

I am hiring an intermediary. I tried to get my Mom to do it, but she was just far too uncomfortable...did not want to be in the middle, etc. Can't say I blame her.

Maybe you should outline $ issues, outline visitation agreements (and arrange for a third party drop off and pick up place that is NOT at your house, but preferably, through someone else). Arrange for a certain time for him to initiate contact with the kids each night (in other words, he needs to call at 7:30pm each night if he would like to speak with them. If he calls at any other time, you will allow the machine to answer the phone and he leaves a message, and you have one of the kids call him back if you are home/available). Otherwise, any questions, contact, needs, anything, goes through the intermediary (and if you hire a third party...you don't have to worry about them being uncomfortable). I now know this will be worth any price. Plan B is supposed to free you and preserve what feelings you may have left for the WH...and I can testify to the fact that my contact with him, especially lately, has seriously damaged me, and will make it that much harder to ever face recovery (IF that ever happens).

Good luck.

I'm so confused. He's not abusive or insulting to me at all when we talk. As a matter of fact, we usually have nice conversations. I think maybe I should Plan A for a while. But it's too hurtful with him continuing his A. Talking to him is such a mind game for me. Why is he being nice and normal. Does that mean he loves me and will want to come back? Or is he just making himself feel better because I seem to be OK??

Thanks mom I've had a couple of beers so far watched the hockey game (they lost) thand God for sports takes my mind off this crap. Anyways I'm sorry that you might have to make this decision in your life you know we're here for you. I hope your H makes the right decision and doesn't contact OW. Stay in Plan A for now and take it with baby steps. It's hard to work on a M when the WS doesn't but at least he's home he knows what is the right thing to do. I know it sucks having to be the strong one, I hate it myself and like you sometimes I wonder if it's worth it. I saw that your H was giving WhiteKnight some advice which I see is progress he's trying to help people here which is proactive and a step I think. Hugs to you mom, I did put a post on dad's I hope he read it.

Which hockey game? Which team were you rooting for? I'm watching QVC and looking to buy things. Retail therapy!!
That actually isn't my husband who's been posting... at least not as far as I know! Maybe it was dadto3boys... I've got the 3 girls!

momof3girls,

I think you need a better marriage counselor now---and I would suggest that you try either the phone counseling available here (Steve and Jenn Harley) or the email/phone counseling with Penny (SaveYour MarriageCentral.

I want to go over your post and illustrate why I think you need someone who can help you with a coherent plan.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyway, we went to see our therapist today (not a very good MC, we will need a new one if H decides to want to work on things) and I basically gave H an ultimatum.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Look up ultimatum in the "Lovebusters" area of the website. It's not a marital behavior that you should be indulging in, especially now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is going on a business trip to the city where the OW lives and he told me he would see her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is good and bad. The good is that he's not lying to you, and honesty should be encouraged. You certainly should have responded with questions on why he was going, and how it made you feel, especially how it damages your love for him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I told him today that if he sees her, if he can knowingly and willingly inflict that much pain on me then I will have to move forward. That I can no longer sit and wait for him that I must talk to a lawyer about a legal separation and work on getting over him. It is just too painful otherwise.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not a MarriageBuilding message. Plan B is not about "getting over" the spouse. You would be best served by letting him know how his actions make you feel (once or twice---you don't need to harp on it), and not threaten consequences for his behavior.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have written a letter that I plan on giving him tomorrow before he leaves on his trip.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Be very careful with letters of this nature. I have seen many posted here, and 99% of them would do nothing to help the marriage. I'd suggest that you post it here (if it's safe) before giving it to your husband. If it's not safe to do so, take an old-timers advice and just not give him the letter. The only letter he should be getting is a carefully crafted plan B letter---when it's time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See, we have a good time when we are together. We are a good family, a good couple. He just doesn't see that. Sigh.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is good. I have no idea what your situation is with regards to the affair, but if you've not been responsible for major liabilities in your marriage (honestly assessed)---in other words, you're not a lovebustin', emotional needs-witholdin' fiend---then you should only spend a limited time in Plan A before going to Plan B. Plan A is to separate your husband from the affair. You do this by exposing the affair, by treating him with thoughfulness (instead of anger), by addressing any major marital issues you can, and by trying to negotiate an end to the affair.

Plan B is hard with kids, but not impossible. I would suggest that you give him weekends, and maybe a night a week. Try to work through an intermediary, or just do a drop off with minimal chit-chat. But before you go to plan B on your own, I'd strongly urge that you get some professional MB counseling.

Duh yeah your right I thougt it was mom23boys. sorry I was watching the Redwings play Nashville. Oops then disreguard what I said then feeling kinda dumb here. LOL

Momto3girls,

I am in a very similar situation with you. I have 3 children, S 8, D 12.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But since he won't end contact with OW, I told him I didn't think we should do that and give me or the kids false hope. See, we have a good time when we are together. We are a good family, a good couple. He just doesn't see that. Sigh. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My WH was the same thing, we even went to Toronto last weekend. But now he played the same disappearing game, which drived me nuts. I am seroiusly thinking about Plan B. I have to think about how to deal with kids. Let's keep sharing ideas.

Lots of love and hugs.

Thanks LostnHurt. This is so confusing. I did give him a letter saying that I needed to work on how to move on without him. I'm sitting here w/ my 3 kids while he is off in another city and seeing the OW. I can't live like that. It's unreasonable for him to think that I can while he has his cake & eats it too. I told him that I needed to close my heart to him to try to end all the pain & hurt. And if he decides to end w/ her then we can talk about how to work on our M. If it's not too late by then. How can he see her when he knows that he will be inflicting the worst pain possible on me??? I guess that's the fog. How can he possibly look at me and tell me that???

Well, of course he has to talk to the kids each day. He called once while I was putting baby to sleep. So I kept calling his cell and he wasn't answering. Finally called back... said he didn't have his cell nearby. I told him that the kids want to talk to him and tomorrow he'd better keep the phone with him.
My 3 year old got on the phone and asked where he was. Then she kept saying "why don't you want to live here anymore?" He didn't have an answer and she just kept asking. What a heart breaker.

I don't think that I can have a true Plan B with the kids. We have to transfer once each weekend, talk on the phone each day (at a minimum answer the call and give the phone to the kids) and there are things like soccer games, dance recitals, etc.

Here's the thing. I just don't know how to act. I don't really want to be a ***** but I need to for myself so I don't get hurt again. But if I act like I'm OK... like "Oh Hi! Kids are good! Here they are." will he say "Hey, she's doing OK w/out me. What's up with that?" Or "She's doing OK w/out me. I guess I'm free to move on". What an F***ing mind game!!!

At least EVERYONE (my MIL, BIL, SIL, his best friend, etc.) agrees with what I'm doing. They all think I've taken enough and need to watch out for myself. That he is being immature, irresponsible, selfish, etc, etc. Not so much help when I'm home alone (well, kids are sleeping) and thinking that this is my future. ANd the person I really want to call is with someone else. Even if I did break down and call him (which I won't!) he probably wouldn't answer the phone and probably isn't in his hotel room and then I'd be even more miserable thinking/knowing he was with HER. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Please, momof3girls, scroll back up and read what K posted again.

I was going to post something like it after reading your first post, but K said it better (and first) and this is one person who really knows what he's talking about.

At least EVERYONE (my MIL, BIL, SIL, his best friend, etc.) agrees with what I'm doing. They all think I've taken enough and need to watch out for myself. That he is being immature, irresponsible, selfish, etc, etc. Not so much help when I'm home alone (well, kids are sleeping) and thinking that this is my future. ANd the person I really want to call is with someone else.

You will find you have no problem finding people to agree with what you are doing. He is acting in a most destructive manner. And there is very little help when you are alone doing all these things and at the same time crumbling inside.

BUT while those are all facts that no-one will dispute, what decisions are you going to draw and act on?

Are your actions going to be geared towards saving your family and making your marriage into what it should have been in the first place or are you going to give up and let it all go without a fight? I would die for my children if I had to. Certainly I'm going to do my absolute best to give them the best life I can. Right now that means patience with my wayward. Right now that means swallowing the pain and doing what I feel needs to be done to restore my family. If it isn't possible, then it isn't possible, but I refuse to live with the slightest thought that I didn't give it everything I had. As I daily refuse to give up, I'm continuously learning that my limits are way beyond what I thought they were.

Even if I did break down and call him (which I won't!) he probably wouldn't answer the phone and probably isn't in his hotel room and then I'd be even more miserable thinking/knowing he was with HER.

I messed up and did this exact thing tonight. (Only she isn't in a hotel room, but right now lives 4 hours away) I think not calling is best. Not because of what you might find, but because you need to start having some faith in your own stregnth. Let the worry go. Easier said than done. Yes, believe me, I know.

Now is the time to find and exercise that inner stregth. I'm facing a very similar issue and Plan A is (slowly) working wonders for me. It seems to be having a gradual, cumulative affect on my Wife too.

dewt

<small>[ April 14, 2004, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: dewt ]</small>

oops...

<small>[ April 14, 2004, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: dewt ]</small>

K is dead on.

Let's go easy on ultimatums and permanent sounding solutons to this.

It seems clear that you do not want a divorce and if that's the case then easy on the lawyer stuff. Lawyers get paid as long as you are fighting, not when you work it out.

Plan A is a good idea until you can't do it - he will miss the 4 of you.

At some point the thought of you and a new man raising those 3 little princesses is going to bite him real hard.

Plan B, if you are ready for it, can be a real eye opener but it is NOT a punishment. It is "Look, I do love you and i still want us to make things work - if you won't end the affair i can't be with you because it will kill the love I still have".

As a practical consideration DO NOT be the one to leave. That's for him to do.

No quick decisions right now and i'd echo the suggestion about calling the MB counselors. They have a plan, it is a plan that works and it is quite solid.

Hang in there, i know it sucks but focus on you and the girls and try not to obsess. This too shall pass - with all the comfort of a large kidney stone maybe but it will pass.