Well, having seen the disastrous fall-out from my MIL's affair and divorce, none of which she's ever explained to her now adult children, IMO assuming the kids will be 'protected' by a cover-up is not a good idea. Her 4 kids from her first marriage are up to 5 divorces (when WH divorces me it will be 6)...

And one of the major problems WH has is thinking lying = loving, that it doesn't matter what he does to me AND daughters, as long as we all lie to cover it up. Since his mother kept secrets to 'protect' her kids, he lies to us to 'protect' us, and we are expected to cover-up for him or else we don't really 'love' him.

Also, I tried keeping quiet about my WH's past affairs and it just enabled him to do it again. Plus the kids, even at a very young age, knew something was up anyway. Little kids assume everything's their fault so it's actually kind of cruel to not give them at least enough of the facts so that they can just stay kids and not try to guess what's going on, thinking it must be their fault.

My daughters are teens and they suspected their father was having an affair before he moved out and before I said anything about my suspicions to them. THEY have confronted me many times about their father's behavior and lies. They would just lose all respect for me if I had tried to lie to them (even a lie of ommission).

IF they ever respect and trust their father again it will ONLY be because he has earned it - as it should be.

And they don't distrust ALL males - only the ones who behave like their father. And THAT is a lesson that will help ensure they have a happy future.

Also, they are aware that I have read books and tried to save my marriage. They have a right to know that at least one of their parents tried to keep the family together. Why let them assume neither parent cares enough about them to try everything possible to save the marriage? IMO that would be cruel.

The concept of a 'no-fault' divorce is a fiction and nobody knows this more keenly than a kid whose parents are getting a divorce. The 'it's nobody's fault - Mommy & Daddy are just going to split up' line is a lie. BOTH parents owe it to the kids to do absolutely everything to keep the marriage and family together, including protecting the marriage from the destruction caused by an OP.

<small>[ May 07, 2004, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

I agree meremortal...

For those parents who think that lying is protecting the children (and yes, ommission of facts is lying) then please don't be surprised when they lie to you some day and not blink twice, they were taught well!!!

Maybe I should clarify my story and that will help you better understand my point. That is--the affair pretty much ended when I found out. I was the one who left him. That's right--I left him. He did not leave me, per se, for his girlfriend. We were actually apart when he was screwing around, but that's because we were both in the military and stationed on opposite ends of the country. We had been reunited, geographically, when I found out. Finding out about the affair gave me the answer as to why he was acting so weird and being so nasty to me. I couldn't take his hostility any more, so I packed my suitcase and went back to the US, hoping that when he realized I wasn't playing, he would feel sorry and come and get me. It was a great deal of hurt pride on my part. He didn't come and get me for over a year. He was ashamed, and he also couldn't leave his job. And other reasons--like the fact that he had found porn and the local nightlife (buy-me-drinky) to be a comforting substitute for a wife, and that was good enough for a guy like he was.

The OW was also living in the US with her husband by then. In short, he blew it with both of us. (Actually, I helped him "blow it" with her because I phoned her and warned that if she came near my family again I would. . .well, I aint gonna say, but I would probably be writing to you from prison if I could have done what I felt like.)

The affair was the reason for the breakup, but it was over when I found out. So, OW wasn't really a part of the picture after I discovered (but I had almost two years worth of their chat and e-mails stored on our computer, so I knew exactly what had transpired during that time. It made me feel even more angry to know that I had been decieved for so long.)

OW was no longer really a threat to me. Therefore, it was not necessary to mention her in any way. It should have not been necessary, in my case, to tell my kids that their father had been cheating on me and that's why I left him.

I have had a very sucessful recovery--pretty much. The hurt never really goes away, it's always down deep in that filing cabinet. For a long time, I knew exactly which files to pull when I was pissed off and wanted him to know how mad I was. Those times have gotten far between. I am not perfect either.

As I have had a so-far sucessful recovery, I am just telling you all from my experience what I would have done differently, and this is the number one thing. You all can argue if you like--you know your families and you know what's probably good for them. But me, I would never again tell a five year old kid that dad has a girlfriend (knowing that it would give him the idea that he had a new mommy lined up.)

To all of those who had parents that fooled around on their partners: are you glad that you know? If your parents had secretly gone through an infidelity, and came through it together, would it still be of value of you to know, after the fact, why they had fought, left the household for a time, slept on the couch, drank too much, ect ect? Or would that be something that you could really live without knowing, and not be the worse for it?

Unfortunately, children are much more intelligent than we give them credit for - especially when it comes to emotions.

As I posted earlier, when I was a kid, by the time I was 8ish, I knew that something was wrong with my parents and their relationship. I also suspected why and through the years I was able to put it all together (comments, reactions, discussions I overheard, etc.). I resented that they were so dysfunctional and couldn't tell me what I knew to be true - my dad had an affair(s), he wasn't invested in the M, he didn't participate in my activities, he lived with us but didn't parent us, etc. Later he used the excuse that my mother wouldn't let him do the "parent" stuff (bull). To this day (nearly 30 years after beginning to figure it out), I resent them both. I believe they were dishonest when it came to their relationship with my sister and me.

Depending on the age of your children and your ability to act and hide the problem, I'm not sure if you can really hide something as big as infidelity from them.

We've never provided details to our sons (13, 11) about the A. They heard the explosion when it was discovered and needed to know why this was happening. My WH and I both spoke to them briefly and separately. We told them the same things: there was ow, it was over, it was wrong (important that WH told them this), and we were going to work on rebuilding our M. This way they knew what was happening was not their fault.

Bottom line:
If you can hide it all, great - kids may not need to know. I would have gladly been oblivious to my parents' problems and not faced my own, personal fallout as a result.
If you can't hide it, however, do you want them to resent you for the rest of your life because you were "dishonest" when they knew at least part of the truth?

I do agree with some of the others, however, every situation is different and parents need to use their intuition to determine what's right for their family. Life seems to be a learn as you go situation - sometimes you're decisions are right and sometimes they are wrong. We can only do our best and hope we make more right decisions than wrong.

Maybe I should clarify my story and that will help you better understand my point. That is--the affair pretty much ended when I found out. I was the one who left him. That's right--I left him
I don't believe that matters. No one is suggesting you HAVE to stay together after an affair.
And telling the kids, "we didn't get along" will do two things.
1 - Let them know it is okay to simply leave a situation when "they don't get along" (marriage/relationship, job, etc.)
2 - Keep them wondering if THEY had done something which made you not get along or if they could have done something to make you get along better.

Simply knowing the truth does not give the person the ability to deal with the truth.
But would you rather NOT be told the truth and have the same mixed up feelings and NOT understand anything of why you are feeling like this?
At least if you know the truth, you won't be making up things in your head which have little to do with reality.

And as I said previously, what is told to them should be age appropriate. And even when they are old enough know everything, they don;t need to know everything you know.
Don't try to make out your ws as the "bad guy". Simply explain they made a poor choice (to have an affair).

<small>[ May 07, 2004, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

This is from No Divorces and my thoughts are the same.

"From the mouths of babes...
Many people feel children should be sheltered from exposure to the issues of divorce and unfaithfulness, but nothing could be further from the truth.
Too often, children suffer tremendous pain and take on blame for their parent's divore, and often when these issues are avoided, children are exposed to a terrible example of unfaithfulness and dishonesty that never goes challenged. They learn it is OK to be unfaithful, and it is OK to pass responsiblity off onto others, and this plants seeds of unfaithfulness and divorce into their hearts and minds from the time they are children.

In truth, much of the motive for sheltering is not really so much to shelter the child, but to shelter the unfaithful from disapproval in the eyes of their children--a disapproval that should rightfully be there. It is time to bring responsiblity for faithfulness back to the parents who promised it to their spouses and to their families."

Ok.I feel a need to clarify my own situation.

First,I am not hiding anything from my children rather it is a conscious effort on my part to sheild them at THIS time from the issue of Infidelity.There will no doubt be a time when they will be told more but now is not the time for us.Too much is uncertain such as to whether or not we will come through this A and be together again working on our marriage or be divorced.In NO WAY am I condoning adultery or giving the impression to my girls that adultery is right or even that what daddy is doing is right.

What they know is that daddy has made some bad decisions that hurt mommy and mommy wants to try and fix the problems in our marriage but daddy does not and it takes two people to fix problems.They also have been told numerous times that what is going on between their dad and me is not their fault,there was nothing they could have done to prevent it(i.e better grades,clean their rooms better,etc) and that mom does not want to talk or be with daddy until he can get some help.Things like that.I have periodically had time with my girls where we have "girls night" and talk about what is going on in our lives,what they know,how they feel,give them an opportunity to ask questions and give them all of my time.So far,what they have been told is enough to satisfy them.One day there may be the time where I will have to tell them about this homewrecker but it will be on MY terms.I do not trust my WH to tell them what is going on.

My girls and I are very close and have lived without WH a lot for the past 8 months and even before that due to his job.It has always been us three and I'll be DAM sure that my girls know that their mother was strong,level headed,patient and caring despite what I am going through and they already know what it means to treat someone you love with respect.They will have no doubt about their father and when the time comes,they will deal with him in their own ways.They will be completely heartbroken because of the special relationship they have had with him but he has changed and not for the better.

I do not want my girls laying awake at night thinking about why daddy will not stop seeing the homewrecker or spend time with her instead of us and all those disgusting painful ideas because right now WH will not stop the adultery and that is also why I will not tell them specifics yet.Overall my girls are doing very well,happy and life has conitnued on without WH so I will not destroy their world until I know for SURE that I have to.The consensus seems to be to bring the children right into the middle of the disaster and I am not going to do that.My WH actions will be known,but at the right time.As someone mentioned,it is a personal choice for each family how to deal with this.

O

I am not hiding anything from my children rather it is a conscious effort on my part to sheild them at THIS time from the issue of Infidelity.
Why do they need to be "shielded"?
9 & 12 are not too young to understand the basics of what is going on.

In NO WAY am I condoning adultery or giving the impression to my girls that adultery is right or even that what daddy is doing is right.
I don't think that is what you are doing.

My girls and I are very close and have lived without WH a lot for the past 8 months
And they ae pretty clueless as to WHY daddy doesn't want to live at home.

I do not want my girls laying awake at night thinking about why daddy will not stop seeing the homewrecker or spend time with her instead of us and all those disgusting painful ideas because right now WH will not stop the adultery and that is also why I will not tell them specifics yet.
You don't need to get too specific.
Maybe something like, "Dad chose to live with another lady right now.
That is not something that married people should do.
Everyone, including us (parents) make mistakes. Remember when I (tell them when you screwed something up and what you did to fix it).
The best way to handle when you make a mistake is to say your sorry and make sure you don't do it again.
I still love your Dad and I want him to come home, but he chooses not to at this time."

The consensus seems to be to bring the children right into the middle of the disaster
The consensus is that you children ARE ALREADY in the middle of the disaster and it should be explained why the disaster is happening and what you are doing to slow it down.

<small>[ May 07, 2004, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

I can understand why Octobergirl is choosing not to disclose too much information to her girls. Her story reminds me a lot of my own parents.

My Dad cheated on my Mom with many different woman. His most serious relationship (soulmate) was with my Mom's best friend. They lived next door to us and her daughter (same age than me) was my best girlfriend. We even went to the same school, played on the same soccer team etc. When my Mom found out about the affair, it was huge. I will never ever forget this during my entire life. It was horrible to see my Mom like this. The OW's H divorced her and my own parents separated. I stayed with Grandma most of the time while my Mom went back to school and worked. The relationship between my Dad and OW did not survive. Afterwards he had many more affairs - with bargirls, co-workers, you name it...

During the visitations, I was introduced to many of his OW. Some were nice to me, some were manipulative and some were mean.

After many years of separation, my parents reunited and recovered their marriage. They also had another child - a boy, my brother.

I do not have any children, but I know that if I did then I would probably react in the same way that Octobergirl does. Her H's relationship with OW may not survive and introducing those young children to this woman could do a lot of damage that is irreversable.

I believe that a lot of my self-esteem issues as well as the kind of men that I've picked in the past and the turmoil in my own marriage is directly related to my childhood. One can never reclaim their childhood and it should be kept as precious and as innocent as possible.

I believe she is doing the right thing. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

Kati

Chris,

Just to clarify,my WH is not living with us because he is working for a company that is too far for him to commute to from home.We moved into our dream home a year and a half ago and he knows that the girls and I are not moving again for any reason(I told him so).We have followed him around for years(moving) while he went from job to job.I am finally settled,the girls are settled and I ADORE my home.

So,my WH gets work where he can and for the past year(most recently) that has meant far away from us(3 hours).We have a very expensive home and big bills so he has to get work that brings in the big income that we are accustomed to.He does not currently live with the HW,she lives in Toronto and I have no idea if she is planning to quit her job and move closer to WH or what.That is the reasoning behind daddy not living at home and I leave it at that because it is true and we have dealt with this before.

Also,our home life is anything but a disaster,I meant for other's who discuss infidelity with their kids and everything changes.On the contrary,our home life(me and the girls) is very calm,safe,loving,and wonderful.We have an amazing home and property that is so serene and private.When WH isn't here,we do very well.It is when he IS here that it is hard to cope and the girls see that I am uncomfortable around him.We do not yell and scream at each other but it is apparent that I do not feel good with WH being here,which is why I am trying to get this Legal Separation or D going.WH has to realize that he can't come here to the home every weekend,have his fix of me and the kids and try to play happy family and then leave again,back to business as usual.He wants to be Mr. Cake eater.Family on the side and HW in the wings.

I hope I have made things more clear.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

O

I'm not (necessarily <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) trying to convince YOU that YOU should tell your kids everything. This is just a discussion in general about telling the kids.
Just that most parents should be very open & honest about it, EVEN if it is painful to everyone.

I'm kinda confused about the house.
Your dream house is someplace where you cannot afford to live, so h has to move someplace else to find work which pays well enough?

Shouldn't the priorities be;
1 - living with family
2 - having a good job
3 - having a home you can afford (without having to separate)?
Also, since you're filing for divorce, what happens when you have to move (again)?
Can you afford the house on your own? Even if you get awarded alimony, child support, etc. What if he decides not to pay? Or quits/loses job and CAN'T pay?

I have two situations I am dealing with here...in my case a son who is married with two young daughters...my stance on all of this was to try to not talk to my son about his father and the ongoing drama in our lives...our son is a caring young man who we instilled morals, family values, honesty, integrity, truthfulness etc. etc...at the present time he is fulfilling all of this list and then some to his family..he loves his girls but I have to tell you the way his father has conducted himself throughout this trying ordeal has hurt him big time..it is his father's actions that govern how he feels right now...he is a young man who knows the differnce between right and wrong and at the present time his father has let him down in every way...at times I see him talk to his father like he is the parent and WS is a sixteen year old...so sad to see...it does not matter how old our children are...it hurts them and it hurts deep...my grandaughters are mostly in the dark about everything but they are very smart little girls...I will never say anthing bad about their grandfather because they adore him.. I think because of their innocent actions in a few instances lately they are the big key to making WS think about his actions and how they reflect on these precious little girls...all I can say "Out of the mouth of babes"...

Advice on discussing it with teens (from the B.A.N. site):

http://www.dearpeggy.com/question.html

Thanks for that link meremortal...this is also great for adult children:

http://www.dearpeggy.com/com021.html

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since the adult kids' feelings about the situation may be affected more by what the hurt parent DOES than what they SAY - it's important for the hurt parent to be able to show that they are not defeated, but will grow stronger and more independent as a result of dealing with this problem. This means the parent first needs to take care of THEMSELVES - instead of directly trying to take care of the adult kids. They need to set an example that the kids can follow in effectively working to understand and heal from the pain of this situation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The main concern my adult son has for me is whether I am going to be ok...he has seen me go through my initial pain stage...watched me loose so much weight...he worries about my well being in everyway..I would have to say in the last three months now that I am finally up and running he sees a big change in me...I am stronger, more independant, and he now knows I will be ok...that is the best gift I can offer him so that he can focas on his family without his previous worries..he is now happier and so am I...

<small>[ May 07, 2004, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: New Outlook ]</small>

Going by MB principles and such, I would have to agree that talking to the kids about the OP is not necessary.

How many times is it discussed on these boards that the OP's are merely SYMPTOMS of the marital problems, and not the actual problems themselves? (yes, you could argue here how some of the OP's are truly ignorant, and can also be blatantly trying to sabotage the M's involved... but again.. the issue goes back to the WS. This is all to be owned by them - the OP's involvement was welcomed by the WS, NOT the BS).

My children are very young (the twins just turned 3, and the older boy is going to be 5 in a few weeks), and I'm keeping what they know to a bare minimum. They know that daddy did some bad things at the old house, and that we don't know where daddy is anymore, and that daddy won't be coming to live with us anymore because he's living somewhere else. I don't think I've actually told them that daddy doesn't love mommy anymore, but I might have. I do know that I told them that daddy did some things that really hurt mommy, and we moved to be safe.

The truth will all come out as they get older, and start asking for details. The facts are that daddy is a sex addict, has been involved in multiple A's throughout our M and R, abused the kids by hitting them and yelling all the time (the twins don't remember... and the older boy is forgetting.. thank goodness!), he didn't provide for them (his financial needs came first... for example, new cd's to burn porn on would come before groceries or rent), he was arrested for the possession of child porn and the sexual assault on an 11 yr old girl (those charges were later withdrawn, b/c the cases weren't strong enough in court), etc. Obviously, it's WAY TOO much for the kids to deal with right now.

The ex is going to have to deal with the kids on his own over time. At the last visitation (June 2003), he brought his then "soulmate" along on it (BIG problem in my books, of course... but there was nothing I could do). OS has the most incredible memory... and I can almost guarantee that he'll come right out and ask daddy, "Where's Lisa?", should they ever have another visitation (it's still in the courts, b/c I'm insisting on supervised access for various reasons).

Oh... of course I'm getting WAY off track here. This is turning into a vent for me... a much needed vent I might add. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

All in all... I agree that the kids don't need to know about the OP, b/c they are merely a symptom of the A, which is merely a symptom of the lack of EN's being met in the M (usually).

HOWEVER... if the kids ask and want answers, then I believe that they should be told whatever can be told, at an age appropriate level.

Karen

Chris,

Ok,one more time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Yes the priorities should be:
#1-living with family
#2-having a good job
#3-being able to afford home

But,I had no idea that my WH was going to have an A while on a job in Toronto,it was probably a ripe situation for him at the time and with a homewrecker that is ready,willing and able,there was little doubt that things could have been different.If WH was feeling so "unhappy" for so long,as he put it,it was just a matter of time IMO.

If WH hadn't had an A then sure,we would have moved again to be with him and be close to his job,like we have always done.BUT,I was not about to uproot the kids nor myself AGAIN knowing that:

A) my H just started an A
B) we were finally in our dream home,something we always wanted after all these years together
C) I was not going to risk moving to be closer to WH as things were,not knowing if we could get beyond the A or for WH to even end it,have a better marriage and be happy together.

That is why I am not moving again,ever unless for some reason we are forced out.My WH has always said that he would rather live on the streets than have us lose this home and have me and the girls live somewhere else or in a smaller home,less of a nice heighborhood,etc,etc.I'll at least give him credit for that.He has never not covered us financially and he said he would even if we do D.He knows I can get what I want anyway,I have talked to a Lawyer and since he has been living comfortably on his own elsewhere,covering all our expenses and I have documentation of this,I was told that I had an excellent chance of maintaining the staus quo,which WH agreed to anyway.

Gotta run.I hope this clarifies thngs again.

o