Are you telling me that you are allowing your W to attend the same church as HIS WIFE and be around her without her knowing that she was screwing around with her H?

REALLY??

It will be worse for you if the affair resumes...

if she is still seeing him at church, she will not withdraw...without withdrawal there can be no recovery...you are changing churches, right? Since this A happened at a church retreat, I also feel that the pastor should be informed...

If she really wants to recover your marriage...then she will eventually understand and get over any anger...It sounds like you just don't want to "upset the apple cart"...but I fear that you are setting yourself up for a false recovery with this line of thinking...

Yes, the OMW MUST know...you do understand that you are now an accomplice to the infidelity by helping the infidels hide their dirty little secret and CHOOSING not to tell her, right?

Mrs. Wondering

Yes, I guess I am telling you that.

But, "screwing around" is not really correct - there has been no PA. If there had been a PA, I would have exposed immediately (and left my W too). My W has downplayed the whole thing and she has never done anything like this before - not even close.

She thinks this thing has been overblown - says they were just friends who got a little too close for 3 weeks. Now, she may be lying about that - I don't know for sure, but if she is telling the truth and if I am making too big a deal out of it, then she will be royally pissed if I tell OM's wife. That's my dilemna. Am I being naive?

She may very well try to kick me out if I tell OM's wife.

Also, our kids are friends (it's his step-kid - this is his second marriage). I don't think I can do anything about that. It will be next to impossible to completely have NC forever because of kids and church.

W (and OM) also know that I have considered exposure to OM's W. They knew a month ago. He has not called her since he realized I had considered it. I think it scared him away from his little game.

I do feel terrible for OM's wife. On the other hand, if this really is not a big deal (which I don't know) am I making OM's wife miserable by telling her something she doesn't really need to know?

So, I really don't know what to do.

How often are you confronted with a moral dilemma?

When you are confronted by a moral dilemma, go with your principles, not with your fears.

Mrs. - The pastor does know. We told him 2 days after I found out. WW had to extricate herself from the group meeting that started all this and she had to talk to him to do that. So we told him the whole story. Unfortunately, we go to a relatively liberal church and he didn't make a huge deal out of it.

Please don't forget, however, it was an EA - not a PA. I think that is why the priest didn't get too worked up about it.

You are right, I don't want to upset the apple cart. I am admittedly being a baby - I am scared to upset it.

Do you really think I am an accomplice to infidelity when there was no PA?

Please see what I wrote above too - maybe they really were just friends.

I heard 2 calls on my recorder. The first was her telling him I had her cell phone records and he told he wasn't to call her anymore and she got very upset - started crying etc. The other call was about 3 weeks later and it was pretty much nothing - about like me talking to a guy friend - I was sort of glad to hear that call because it was nothing. Of course, I was royally pissed because she wasn't supposed to be calling him at all....

So, I am not 100% convinced that they weren't just friends. Of course I could be in denial because by her own admission he did tell her he loved her. She says she didn't say that back to him, just that she had a "crush" on him.

On the other hand, she says she still considers him to be a friend -

Pepper - You are right. The problem is, I am not sure what the right thing is to do here - I am not sure what my principles should be here.

If this really wasn't a big deal (which I don't believe, but I don't know), then I would be causing the OM's wife alot of grief and trouble for nothing. That's part of the dilemna.

I also do not have a ton of evidence - I have a couple of phone calls, cell phone records and a list of pros and cons my wife made for leaving me and it lists the OM and his W as a con - since he's happily marries. I think her IC made her make the list.

Anyway, at this point that is all I have.

Of course, she could check his cell phone records and we could quickly determine if they are still talking. W was calling some from public phones...

Also, my W may get so mad if I do expose that my M may be over. That's part of the dilemna too.

Thanks.

If your wife was not the one who had the affair, I would give her opinion about the need for exposure more weight...

What is morally right is not changed by an angry wife.

Mrs. Wondering. Thank you. I can certainly understand that POV.

Interestingly, when I did a search in the main section of this web site, using the key word "exposure" I found nothing that helped to clear up my questions/doubts. Now, granted, I'm not the smartest-computer-cookie on the block. But if exposure is such an all-important part of MB, I find it interesting that it's difficult at best -- impossible at worst -- to find any reference to it on this web site.

I also don't think questioning any principle... here at MB or elsewhere... is "dangerous". IMO, NOT questioning is the real danger. If it's such a solid principle.. those who espouse it should be able to defend it (without getting defensive) and back it up with solid examples and statistics.

I asked on another thread if any statistics were available re: exposure's long term effect on the recovery of a marriage. I was told there was not, to anyone's knowledge.

So... we're left to consider anecdotal evidence. So I start looking for anecdotal evidence and I find, on this thread, only the stories of BS's. So, I asked: Where's the other side? Where are the FWW's who've recovered their marraiges after exposure? I really think that's a valid question.

If I were a newbie BS... coming here looking for advice I could count on to reach my ultimate goal -- the healing of my marriage -- I would think it would be very valuable information to hear the stories of FWW's who were exposed... details about how they were exposed... and their reactions. For someone who is unsure, doubting etc... I would think that would carry even more weight that someone who writes a post saying esentially "Here's how it is. I know. Trust me. Don't worry. This will all blow over in time."

Again, I'd love to hear more about the manner of exposure.. how the friends/family reacted... and how in turn that affected the WS. (Mel, I noticed you touched on that a bit in your post above. Thanks)

Respectfully,
--SC

Cookie .... why are you concerned with opinions of FWW and not of FWH ???

Just curious.

Hi Pep,
Oops. Typo. Previously, I was writing FWS... FWW is just old habit (since I am one, she said sheepishly).
Outa time for tonight... I'll try to clarify my earlier point that you asked about if I get a chance tomorrow.
--SC

19...

Put yourself in the position of OMW...Would you want her to tell you about the choices that your wife and her husband had been making about your life behind your back?

If it is truly "no big deal" then why would the OM and your W care if OMW knows? Tell her and let she and OM figure that out for themselves...

Women don't cry over relationships with other men if they are, in fact, "no big deal"...seriously, they don't...

Yes, I do think that you are an accomplice to the infidelity if you don't tell her...EA or PA...it doesn't matter...betrayal is betrayal, plain and simple...you hold a secret about her marriage that she has a right to know...how is your holding on to that secret any different than what your wife and OM were keeping from you???

The friendship of your children to OM's children will NEVER be as important to them than the marriage of their parents...NO WAY...NO HOW!!!

Your marriage can survive anger...it CANNOT and WILL NOT survive an ongoing affair...

Another thing...no matter what the fallout...you DO NOT move out..NO WAY...if anyone moves it should be the infidel...NOT the BS...and if they choose to go, they go WITHOUT the children...

You have the evidence...you have the gut feelings...you know what you have to do...deep down, you know...otherwise you wouldn't be here...don't prolong it...the risk to all involved is simply too great...


Mrs. Wondering

19, now you know they are not just "friends." That makes no sense at all. An emotional affair is actually much worse for a female than a physical affair. However, this will probably escalate to a physical affair since you are willing to help them hide their secret. See, affairs thrive on secrecy so you have made it much more likely to resume, that is if it did ever end. The big issue that you have is that they are still in contact so your W cannot withdraw from the addiction she has with this man.

And you know what else? You have a MORAL obligation to alert this woman that your W and her H are destroying her behind her back. She needs to know so can take measures to protect herself.

For you to allow your W to parade around her without her knowing her H is screwing around with your W is extremely cruel. Do you realize that? She will not forget that you allowed that to happen.

I thought that was it ... just making sure the boat had not left without me (again)

19,

Additional benefit of exposure

It appears you are not willing or able (WS resistance) to change churches, well after you expose I bet they will. Saves you having to make your family switch. Bonus being...no contact can really be "no" contact.

Mr. W

No, they don't need "statistics" to know that exposure is an effective tool. Nor would the "long term effects," whatever in the world that means, of exposure be relevant. We only need to know that exposure serves its purpose and there is plenty of experience on this forum and in Dr. Harley's case files. Its purpose is to bust up affairs. Dr. Harley is an exposure advocate who has years long experience with its positive effects. After all, he is one of the most successful marriage counselors in the US.

He speaks about exposure on an almost daily basis [you can hear his radio show by clicking on the link above] and has counseled folks to do the same for years. It is a good solid, effective Marriage Builders tool.

So, if you are going to question it, you should do so with countering facts and statistics [this was your standard, after all and you should live up to it] and relevant questions, instead of simply making blind challenges with no substantiation whatsoever for no reason whatsoever. That would be the "smart" way to make a challenge. Just asking aimless, irrelevant questions for the purpose of creating doubt and unsubstantiated challenge won't achieve that.

Here is a recent email from Dr Harley about his thoughts on exposure. I dont see that he leaves much question about what he believes:

"While most affairs die a natural death in less than two years, there are some that take much longer to die. That's one of the primary reasons that my first rule in surviving an affair is to never see or talk to the lover again -- even if the affair seems to have died a natural death. An affair can rekindle after it seems to be over. And to guarantee complete separation between the unfaithful spouse and the lover, extraordinary precautions must be taken, such as providing radical accountability and transparency. In many cases, I've encouraged couples I've counseled to change jobs or even move to another state to help create permanent separation.

Another suggestion I make to a couple struggling to restore their marriage after one of them had an affair is to make the affair public. Everyone should know what happened -- children, relatives, friends, and especially the children and spouse of the lover -- so that the affair is exposed to the light of day. What often makes affairs appealing is that it is done in secret. Most affairs become very unappealing once everyone knows about it.

So whether an affair is a one night stand, or has been going on for years, the basic rule for ending them are the same -- extraordinary precautions to guarantee permanent separation. But I will admit that the precautions used for long-term affairs are usually more extraordinary than those used for short-term affairs. I've helped many spouses overcome affairs that have lasted over ten years, but none of them have been easy. "

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

19, you CANNOT allow the OMW to continue to associate with your W and your children not knowing about this affair. That is cruel and she will deeply resent it when she finds out. Nor should your children be around his children ever again because that would mean contact between your W and the OM. This is the problem with keeping secrets, 19, you become an enabler to the affair, which only helps the affair. The truth needs to come out so both your families can seperate and heal. That is the only solution.

Stating the obvious for the record -- Affairs are ruinous to marriages. An affair, once discovered, left unchecked, is likely to lead to divorce. I am not questioning that point. Okay? No need to keep harping on it.

So... the next question is how best to stop the affair. MB principles say exposure is a very effective way to stop the affair. Okay, fine.

HOWEVER... this isn't the "Affair Busters" web site. It's the "Marriage Builders" web site. Most, if not all, of the people dealing with infidelity who come here are trying to achieve the long term goal of saving and improving their marriages.

So the question is -- Does the WAY exposure is handled have any impact on the long term goal of saving and improving the marriage?

Well, YES, this is the Affair Busters website. This is the "INFIDELITY" Forum. [please note sign on door] In order to save marriages, we learn how to KILL affairs. There is nothing left TO build unless that happens. And I have no idea what you mean by the "WAY" exposure is handled. WHAT "WAY?"

19
My exhusband - yes ex - was involved in an emotional affair with a co-worker - they had "feelings" for each other - they both confessed that to each other and then to their respective spouses. Then three days later they "ended" it. I never told a soul - figured I could handle it on my own - no one else needed to know my shameful secret - and yes - I thought of it as mine. Well the EA never stopped - he refused to quit his job - went out of his way to see her. And I did nothing - and now I am divorced - and he actually annuled our 26 year marriage and she is divorced and annuled her 12 year marriage and they are together. So please listen to the wise people on here - They know what they are talking about.

"Happy Finally". You are having hindsight thinking. You have no way of knowing that had you exposed to more people it would have in any way stopped this affair.

Perhaps JUST THE THREAT of ratting to others about the WS affair might help it to end. If not, then follow through with the threat and EXPOSE. JMHO