</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but there is something about rejection for another person that really grips people and leads to some serious soul searching like nothing else can, as well as some real interesting reactions.....do you (and pep) agree with that analysis? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">okay....here is the part of this statement I CAN agree with. Yes, there is a certain element of rejection (of any kind) but especially rejection over another person that can lead to real soul searching. But the opportunity for soul searching can be prompted by so MANY MANY things that are capable of producing results that to see an affair as a desirable because of that seems really short sighted. The divorce, would free me completely to pursue those sorts of opportunities....like education, travel, spirtual endeavors, work just to name a few....that affair recovery may not since I would still be responsible for meeting the needs of someone else. Divorce allows me to meet my own needs without that responsibility. I spend an incredible amount of my time....assessing and providing for my husband....what if I didn't have to? What could I potentially do with all that time? I think I could use it for personal growth and would.

To extrapolate this:

that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger...

To mean this:

so that which almost but just short of killing you will make you strongest....ie all agree an affair is more painful than straight up divorce...ergo, more growth opportunity.

completely ignores the fact that greater risk doesn't always equate to greater gain....sometimes, greater risk simply increases the likelihood that a higher percentage of folks will be "killed". </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">star, you are kinda mixing up stuff here, and confusing the issue, I am the poll God (on this one) so it has to be confined as I sat. Yes, the moment we move on to specific situations, we have an endless variety of answers. In your case, seems you feel all your growth was accomplished, and for you the affair was just a pain in the butt, and restrictive....you really sound like you should have divorced. Are you leading a primarily sacrificial life now, and have you done the person self work to be sure you are not (assuming you are gonna demur).

Yep risk is an issue, greater risk despite greater rewards also gaurantees great cost, sometimes too much for sure...but the poll was the general case, and reflects the risk willingness of the respondents. In the case of affairs, the outcome of stds is a strong reason to give up the growth opportunities....of course many affairs have no stds, but interestingly that was only mentioned by one person as a consideration in assessing the answer....most were influenced by a desire to reduce emotional pain.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb wrote:
....I see mostly pain...humiliation and degradation are self-inflicted injuries (in that you choose how to respond to such situations), and suggests a large need for more self-actualization, which of course is one of the growth opportunities. Jesus was degraded/humiliated but I have no sense that He felt that way, or saw it as defining Him. You cannot define anyone, we define ourselves, if we let others define us, we need to grow.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what I'm reading from you is that learning and growing is to become robots and not FEEL? Not feel pain, not feel anything.

So, then a question regarding our power over ourselves to NOT feel any emotions. If one was "sad and lonely" in a marriage, wouldn't you then say that it was their choice to feel sad and lonely?

Jo </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes, to some extent jo, continuing to feel sad and/or lonely would be a choice...if you do not act to change circumstances.

No, one cannot choose their emotions, did I say that? But one can choose how to react to them, and if you "feel" humiliated of degraded that is about you, and you can take healthy actions....but no one "did" this too you....pain on the otherhand is just pain, labeling it is irrelevant, but avoidance is a natural reaction and seems to be the reason for the poll outcome. Accepting pain is also a choice, for perceived benefits (such as medical procedures)...my premise was that the pain of an affair experience may be worth the cost because of growth opportunities...this was related to the stated desire for people to remain married....if an affair is a greater growth opportunity than it suggests a greater chance at healthy recovery, so it perplexed me why people regularly say they would rather be served divorce papers as the marital crisis....a scenario that may have a smaller likelihood of good outcome, maritally or personally.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In your case, seems you feel all your growth was accomplished, and for you the affair was just a pain in the butt, and restrictive....you really sound like you should have divorced. Are you leading a primarily sacrificial life now, and have you done the person self work to be sure you are not (assuming you are gonna demur).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, divorce might VERY well have been a better option for me...but I didn't get the luxury of making that decision at a time when it would not impact 3 other human beings...my children. So the potential benefit for me was not worth the loss of stability for them since I am the type of person who is capable of overcoming the pain of the affair.

I am not leading a sacrificial life at all...quite the opposite. Since I had no intention of remaining in my marriage ONLY for my children....I have been diligent in helping to create a new and better marriage...and one of the requirements was that my H made an equal commitment. I think he has. I would have respected him more if had had done it without becoming involved in affairs....but I don't punish him for it.

My growth was definitely not a fait accompli by the time of the affair...if I had to stop growing at any point in my life, I might as well stop living....sounds stagnant and boring. I just do not agree that the affair offered me the better opportunity to growth. Out of the two....divorce did that. My first husband did me an enormous favor...I truly believe that. He wasn't ready...and he knew it. He saw no reason to continue down a path that would expose me to more pain and limit his options as well. My second husband did me no favors. The fact that I have recovered my marriage nicely doesn't change that.

Is this not just one huge exercise of futility?

someone mentions the risk of an STD...early on in this post...
YOU nip that one in the bud...not wanting such "details" to be part of the decision making process...

then turn around and state...

In the case of affairs, the outcome of stds is a strong reason to give up the growth opportunities....of course many affairs have no stds, but interestingly that was only mentioned by one person as a consideration in assessing the answer....most were influenced by a desire to reduce emotional pain.

that's because you told people not to use the STD one .....

So now do you want all the people to vote again using the std factor as a "detail"...

You deny universal FACTS about affairs...

the most important being that the dishonesty needed to carry out an affair is a consistant FACT in every affair....
as is the disrespect...
and it involves dishonesty perpertrated on the BS....

you can't spin it any other way...

and the fact that dishonesty/disrespect may exist in a marriage in many other forms.... doesn't water down the fact of its existence in an affair...
nor does it justify it
nor does it rationalize it...

a divorce... if nothing else... is the HONEST act that someone no longer cares to be with you...

the pain, the potential for growth, are all irrelevent....

there are no garuntees in life that every experience is one for growth or not..
and no one can place value on that growth for anyone else but themselves...

If I were to survive cancer and find it in my life to be a great learning experience...I sure as heck wouldn't encourage anyone else to get cancer or have cancer...because I wouldn't want them to miss out on MY experiences...
cause there is no way for them to be garunteed to have the same learning experience that I did...

ark

2morrow's number is expected 2 be 0572429085723, which is more than 15 times the number on the same date last year, and 490875 higher than the average for this season.

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> 2morrow's number is expected 2 be 0572429085723, which is more than 15 times the number on the same date last year, and 490875 higher than the average for this season.

-ol' 2long </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok, I will bite.... what the heck is this...but don't tell outright, give clues

Mars temperature...?

It's an admittedly sarcastic commentary on the value of polls like this one.

"Your love life is governed by the distant planet Fringus, which is only 3 inches in diameter" - You Were Born on a Rotten Day: An Unofficial Horoscope

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> Mars temperature...? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">lol ... that was so funny!

Do you know, is it also foggy up there?

damm..

I wanted to answer before pep...

I was SURE it was the number of brain cells I wasted today....

or the number of typos by me....

infact that's my final answer....

ARK

<small>[ May 27, 2004, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

"Do you know, is it also foggy up there?"

It can be where I work, but not 2day.

-ol' 2long

It seems that most here would have rather been served divorce papers then to have discovered an affair.

I guess what I don't get is . . . if divorce is what you would have wished . . . why not just do it? Get divorced. Move on.

Dealing with an affair is hard. Fighting for a marriage is certainly harder then just walking away.

If a marriage is worth fighting for, even after being damaged by an affair, why would the marriage have so little value that you could prefer it to have been ended by your spouse? And if that is the case, why do so many here try to keep the marriage alive?

I guess I just don't get it.

I would rather have been served papers too, I guess. At least it is over in a sanitized fashion.

Well..

wouldn't it be that the divorce papers don't automatically equal the end of a marriage...

and the field of marital repair though difficult and painful...
is no where equal to the field of marital repair where there is infidelity....

I don't think people are saying they would rather be divorced...
I think people are saying they would rather deal with horrible icky issues...without the issue of infidelity being in the mix as well...

the outcome is not determined by the choice....

ark
who could be wrong...because I barely understand the poll question in the first place.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong> Well..

wouldn't it be that the divorce papers don't automatically equal the end of a marriage...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">O.K.,

You're saying that folks would have rather gotten divorce papers if their spouces didn't really mean it? If they had the papers drafted . . . well . . . in error perhaps?

I guess what I thought was meant by the poll was,

1)Have your spouse have an affair with the possibility of some salvage of the marriage or 2) have your spouse just divorce you. Period.

The questions I raised in my previous post address the situation as I understood the poll. If it is designed the way you say Ark . . . where your spouse could be talked out of it . . . I fully understand folk's responses.

I guess, I too, don't have a good grasp about what was really asked.

<small>[ May 27, 2004, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

You're saying that folks would have rather gotten divorce papers if their spouces didn't really mean it? If they had the papers drafted . . . well . . . in error perhaps?

no that's not what I am saying...
not that spouses didn't mean it...

what I thought it meant was that people get a huge painful wakeup call that the marriage is way way way off the road in the ditch..

choose..
divorce papers
affair....

from what I gather the poll author believes that one offers a greater opportunity for personal growth insight and learning...not to mention a lots of nausea and weight loss... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

and the poll author believes that affairs are nothing more than an opportunity for a spouse to move up the ladder of self actualization....

lots of people get served a piece of paper and then go to marriage counseling...
and that the issues involved with infidelity are most difficult....

I don't think you talk anyone of anything...I think you two people decide to rebuild...

ark...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Written by Arkie regarding an Affair choice:
from what I gather the poll author believes that one offers a greater opportunity for personal growth insight and learning...not to mention a lots of nausea and weight loss...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One tends to think the poll author's then-wife may have heard this exact phrase at some point. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ May 27, 2004, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

Originally posted by 2long:
"2morrow's number is expected 2 be 0572429085723, which is more than 15 times the number on the same date last year, and 490875 higher than the average for this season."

Oh... oh oh....

The number of calories consumed by MBers while reading/posting on this board?????

Did I get it right??

You know, most WS eventually emerge from the fog. But this post provides convincing evidence that some simply choose to become one with the fog...

I believe I have an example of a couple where divorce papers would have served as a better learning opportunity than an affair did.

That well know couple SNL and Thinker. Now it's obvious that their marriage was in trouble well before an A came into the picture. Neither was very happy, SNL probably more so, but neither seriously brought up divorce or actually served the other with divorce papers.

Then the A happened and the process of actual legal separation/divorce began to be a real issue instead of an empty threat.

Now, I feel that had SNL presented Thinker with divorce papers instead of waiting until critical mass was hit and had an A that perhaps Thinker would have been forced to confront her failings in the marriage and actual restoration or at the very least a split that left her able to contemplate what went wrong might have been the outcome instead of the raging bitterness that's pretty evident to this day.

But with the A in the picture it was all too easy to blame the demise of the marriage on that rather than on the conditions that made it happen. Thinker was handed a ready made scapegoat on which to pile the blame and thus was robbed of the opportunity to actually examine her role in the state of her marriage. The A did nothing at advance Thinker's knowledge about marriage and relationships and only left her with the idea that men leave when they find someone else to be with.

So actually, I think being served with papers absent an A would have been a much better learning opportunity for Thinker and would have made her have to look at her own faults and the problems in the marriage instead of focusing on the smoke and mirrors of the A.

Just a thought.

Originally posted by Not-so-Silent-Observer:

" Now, I feel that had SNL presented Thinker with divorce papers instead of waiting until critical mass was hit and had an A that perhaps Thinker would have been forced to confront her failings in the marriage and actual restoration or at the very least a split that left her able to contemplate what went wrong might have been the outcome instead of the raging bitterness that's pretty evident to this day."

OMG... are you saying that an A is the result of the WS NOT problem-solving with integrity ... therefore further ~complicating~ a marriage already in trouble?????

Therefore the WS ~missed~ a learning opportunity... that being, problem solving without inflicting unnecessary pain onto two already hurting people?

WHAT a concept!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />