I vote for a healthy, loving, respectful, honest marriage...oh, not an option in this poll of 2 life altering, generally negative, choices for the BS.

Excuse me, 2 "learning experiences".

We've debated ad nauseum exactly what, if anything, a BS stands to learn or grow from an affair. (where IS that vomit greamlin???) If this is such an enormous opportunity for growth and learning (and assuming that BS's aren't the ONLY ones expected to learn) what growth and learning potential does it afford WS's? And do the POSITIVE things they learn about themselves outweigh the negative?

For instance....is finding out that you really truly love your wife/husband worth the humiliation, dishonesty and pain you cause them to get there or the risk that you will destroy your family? Even if it's worth it to you....is it realistic to expect it to be worth it to THEM? What entitles anyone to obtain knowledge through the misery of others simply for the SAKE of knowledge? Isn't knowledge obtained through the necessity of hurting others the most selfish way of learning when so many other avenues of self actualization are available?

Hi Sufbd,

I think you answered your question.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">by sufbd: I agree (again) how one experiences a divorce is situational...but that isn't what the poll is about, it is a rational question, but it is being answered emotionally. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's a rational question, in that it's proper English and is easily understandable by the reader, but what you are missing is that most people cannot be rational about such severely traumatic experiences. Period.

Also, I’m surprised by now that you haven’t figured out that you, sir, are an odd duck <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . Your personality type compromises roughly 1% of the population. You are extremely logical, you must know this, but you still seem surprised that other people give such weight to their feelings. You must have run into this all your life.

You try to logically rationalize that the tremendous pain people have experienced may have in fact made them better, wiser human beings. What I think you don’t realize is that most people don’t consider themselves broken, or in particular need of growth. Blissfully ignorant? I have to admit that I’ve said more than a few times, ‘gosh, wouldn’t be nice to go through life so unaware?’ Looks good from where I’m standing, sometimes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The NT personality makes constant demands on himself, taxing himself with constant improvement, holding a sort of mental stopwatch over himself, recording his gains and losses. He must be wholly competent in his work and in his play, and he never gives himself respite from this self-imposed level of excellence. This constant striving for peak efficiency, explains many things about NT behavior: why they put their trust in the precision of logic, for example, or why they are so hard on themselves when they make errors </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most people are not like this. Something like 3% of the population has this persistent need to improve themselves. I am like this, and I can almost go with you on your theory, but not quite. I do see how I’ve changed and grown as a result of my marriage difficulties. And I didn’t experience a full-on A, public embarrassment, or STD, so the trauma I experienced was much less than those here. But I’d be hard pressed to say I’d go through this all again JUST for the personal growth I experienced, as I think I would have eventually gotten to this point anyway.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thus the problem is not that Conceptualists are cold and inhuman, but that they are by nature both abstract and highly focused, and have to be reminded to get their nose out of their books, their technical journals and their computer files-to get out of their heads-and join the family circle.

NTs tend to focus on the future, regarding the past as something dead and gone. The past is useful only as a means of giving direction to the future and for deciphering the lessons of history, taking heed to the warning that "He who remains ignorant of history is doomed to repeat it." The NT is never willing to repeat an error. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see where you are going with this. You’ve just got to realize that others won’t share your point of view when it comes to logically looking at feelings. In fact, aren’t Feelings and Logic 180 degree opposites? I’m just surprised that you are surprised by the results you are getting. Take care - Dru

My daughters and I take ballroom dance lessons.
Some instructors encourage the students to switch dance partners every few minutes during the lesson.

Here's why:

Inevitably beginning dancers will make mistakes. When they do, they usually assume it's their partner that has made the mistake - not themselves. (Some even argue during class - dance rage LOL). But if you practice dancing the same steps with several different partners, and you notice that ALL the partners you practiced with made the exact same mistake... then you (should eventually) realize that it is YOU that is out of step and needs to make a necessary adjustment (a humbling 'learning/growth' experience)...

<small>[ May 27, 2004, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Not-so-Silent-Observer:
<strong> I believe I have an example of a couple where divorce papers would have served as a better learning opportunity than an affair did.

That well know couple SNL and Thinker. Now it's obvious that their marriage was in trouble well before an A came into the picture. Neither was very happy, SNL probably more so, but neither seriously brought up divorce or actually served the other with divorce papers.

Then the A happened and the process of actual legal separation/divorce began to be a real issue instead of an empty threat.

Now, I feel that had SNL presented Thinker with divorce papers instead of waiting until critical mass was hit and had an A that perhaps Thinker would have been forced to confront her failings in the marriage and actual restoration or at the very least a split that left her able to contemplate what went wrong might have been the outcome instead of the raging bitterness that's pretty evident to this day.

But with the A in the picture it was all too easy to blame the demise of the marriage on that rather than on the conditions that made it happen. Thinker was handed a ready made scapegoat on which to pile the blame and thus was robbed of the opportunity to actually examine her role in the state of her marriage. The A did nothing at advance Thinker's knowledge about marriage and relationships and only left her with the idea that men leave when they find someone else to be with.

So actually, I think being served with papers absent an A would have been a much better learning opportunity for Thinker and would have made her have to look at her own faults and the problems in the marriage instead of focusing on the smoke and mirrors of the A.

Just a thought. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if the A was never over? The issues in the M may have existed to some degree but the exaggerated tool of the A never died, then what? How justified is the divorce? In whose eyes is it justified?

Has S, duped you all into thinking he was fully justified by his D? That his xw is a psycopath and deserves to have her family turned against her? That the xw is the only one of his family suffering from the D and that the children and other relatives are happy with his current lifestyle?

If you do, think again. This jabber of his isn't adding up. Not even way out here on the west coast.

Sorry S, I know you have good points about you but you are on a course that isn't healthy and I believe you know it. Please go get some help, real help. Don't rely on those who promote A's for support and advice. Don't try to make the bad actions appear to be good or acceptable.

What betrayed you? Your own anger. For those that know you, your anger gives you away every time. It shows you are covering up something that refuses to be hidden. The A never did end did it? How can you tell others to stop the A when your actions c/b promoting it?

Your words belie the truth, S. I know you don't always like my posts but they are said because sugar coating or stroking your ego won't help you get better.

Please find that nice man, I spoke to before. The one that had some sense. I know he was even better than that prior to his coming to MB. I know he had the sense to take care of his family. I know he had a hard time expressing deep feelings and covered it over by generalizations of philosphy.

Look in the mirror S, the good man is still there, deep down inside. I think he wants to come out.

I heard he has a nice smile and likes lemon meringue pie. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Don't let a bitter disposition ruin what you have left. Also if you are having an A, you know where that will head. Regardless of the mental state of the OP, a WS is in no position to help an OP who has also lost it.

Remember PBR? She is still out there being a hazard to the community. Her hands reach far, even to other states. The only one that can stop her is herself. Until she realizes she needs help and is a danger to herself and others, she will continue to reek havoc.

I would hate to see anything like that happen to you and your family.

take care,
L.

ps: smile..... your face won't crack. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
That's what I had to tell my H. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ May 28, 2004, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

:barf:

o..what if the A was never over? The issues in the M may have existed to some degree but the exaggerated tool of the A never died, then what? How justified is the divorce? In whose eyes is it justified?

sufdb...what does this have to do with anything, much less the point of this poll/thread? Which is about growth from life experiences. I suppose we could speculate endlessly about everything and everybody....*****EDIT*********** Maybe MB is really nothing more than a money tree (all those materials for sale doncha know...I mean only a tiny fraction of the visitors here seem to go to better marriages, so maybe the whole thing is a big con job). *********EDIT*******..geez orchid where does it end? You have no choice but to accept what people right as the facts as they seem em....and if they seem inconsistent in their own words, or obviously aggressive, emotional, etc. etc. they observe accordinly. Further some seem obsessed over the rightness or wrongness of affairs, justification, blah blah blah....this is so dumb, affairs just happen, they happen everywhere to everyone....and almost no one sets out to have one (except for the actual screwed up people, few who seem to post here)...who cares about right/wrong/justification has nothing to do with anything....what counts is what you do afterwards...do you learn? Do you stop a dysfunctional marriage ( fixing or ending it), do you affair proof yourself (bs and ws...cause roles may reverse, as is common here...everyone is a ws, because we are all humans, and humans are a promiscuous, as well as social species).

o....Has S, duped you all into thinking he was fully justified by his D? That his xw is a psycopath and deserves to have her family turned against her? That the xw is the only one of his family suffering from the D and that the children and other relatives are happy with his current lifestyle?

sufdb...Hmm... I suppose, and I guess their kids are just complete idiots who cannot think for themselves...but you, who have no idea at all about their lives are somehow more knowledgeable. But let me get this straight...so no one can "make" another have an affair (that is the bs mantra right?)...but now you propose one can "make another act aggressively, lovebust continuously (even long after the marriage ended), aleinate their adult children, and continue to trash her exh at every opportunity to whoever will listen to the tale of woe (as opposed to making amends with him, and working together for both their benefits.... So how does that work...he makes her do this? Hmm...then maybe she made him have an affair...can't have it both ways....either we are all responsible for out behavior, or we are not....which is it?

o...If you do, think again. This jabber of his isn't adding up. Not even way out here on the west coast.

sufdb...ya know, it is attitudes like this which validate victimhood, and keep people stuck....rearrangeing the facts provided for over a long period of time into whatever concoction fits your agenda. I assume you are talking about thinker/snl, they clearly (since both posted) had serious compatibility problems, as well as no disagreement over the facts (been living seperated in the same home for years...different bedrooms, essentially no sex (or interest by either party), seperate vacations, and a frequently stated desire for divorce by thinker, as well as a huge amount of lovebusting, years of counselling had made no difference, they both were well aware the marriage was nothing more than a childrearing situation, they shared nothing with each other, and thinker by her own admission was emotionally connected to her father, and never her H (something snl had complained about to no avail their entire marriage)....so now you suggest he is what...some kind of devious manipulaor...you need help with your analysis skills....why not just accept the facts for what they are....regardless of either persons "character" they cannot be healthy together, just brings out the "worse" in both of them I guess. And why do you think the exw is a psychopath anyways?

o...Sorry S, I know you have good points about you but you are on a course that isn't healthy and I believe you know it. Please go get some help, real help. Don't rely on those who promote A's for support and advice. Don't try to make the bad actions appear to be good or acceptable.

sufdb...what? If you refer to a question on another thread about my well-being....I am fine, I understand what happened in my life, and why....going all the way back to my naivete about marriage and relationships, which is where my trainwreck started. Im my case, I broke up twice (for cause) with the woman I married, I didn't follow my own instincts which told me that though we were both good people, we did not do well together...but I am a rescuer, and I had become physical with her (we were both first), and she promised to change, and I believed her....and the rest was predictable. What I have tried to do was craft a healthy exspouse relationship, but even that doesn't work... clearly they cannot and should not have been married...and they both are equally responsible for that fact.

o...What betrayed you? Your own anger. For those that know you, your anger gives you away every time. It shows you are covering up something that refuses to be hidden. The A never did end did it? How can you tell others to stop the A when your actions c/b promoting it?

sufdb...anger? Hardly, where? The only anger I have is over the continuing and unceasing attacks on everthing that makes me...me, by my exw, including a huge amount of lies...but even this is anger over the unfairness of character assasination.....however, both our lives are much much more peaceful, now that we do not live together********EDITED********I have stated many times I think affairs are really poor choices, and that is how you actually affair proof yourself, by figuring out it is a losing proposition. I figured that much out before even discovery (and it was a very short-lived affair, couple months after friendship boundaries crossed, followed by the usual withdrawal issues). The affair ended mutually (she figured out the same thing). The primary consequence (of the affair) being I was no longer going to live a sacrificial marriage, or tolerate the emotional neglect/abuse, and I was going to start considering myself, and what was healthy for me. This change in focus on my needs infuriated my wife, who after a very very brief (and totally ineffective) plan a, returned to her previous behavior, likewise I could see no reason to continue the marriage, all we did is fight, one particularly destructive component was her relentless efforts to convince me our marital difficulties were all about the affair, and my various character defects...she made no effective effort to psychoanalyze herself, or effect any permanent changes in her behavior, and things rapidly went back to pre-affair interactions...I don't blame her for anything, she is who she is, I am who I am, and we do not do well together....but I am not angry about that....the past done, over, fini....it serves no purpose but to learn from, and move on...I have offered her a good exspouse relationship, she has rejected that offer, and choose rather to embitter herself and blame me. That always worked in the past, I hated to see her unhappy, and I would scurry about trying to fix whatever...we never talked or addressed my needs...any mention of such resulted in an immediate dismissal of them, a litany of her complaints/needs, or a fight if I didn't back down...that hasn't changed a bit.

o...Your words belie the truth, S. I know you don't always like my posts but they are said because sugar coating or stroking your ego won't help you get better.

sufdb...Like? Not really the relevant word. Your comments are innacurate, your analysis self-serving re your own agenda (that is a risk we all take when we get into others lives, as I have been accused too), you are just plain wrong, and that helps keep people stuck. I do beleive your intentions are good though.

o...Please find that nice man, I spoke to before. The one that had some sense. I know he was even better than that prior to his coming to MB. I know he had the sense to take care of his family. I know he had a hard time expressing deep feelings and covered it over by generalizations of philosphy.

sufdb...that nice man is alive and well, better now that he doesn't have to listen to all his defects, and how awful he is day in and day out. He treated his wife well, was (and is) a good dad, a good and loyal spouse, and friend (even now to his exw who doesn't deserve it judging by how harshly she treats him, and messes with him regularly).

o...Don't let a bitter disposition ruin what you have left. Also if you are having an A, you know where that will head.

sufdb...I am incapable of bitterness, it is a useless emotion, and I am so glad God made me that way....As for your insulting (to not only intelligence, but my veracity) suggestion (thinly disguised by if)...of having learned nothing, and would choose an affair, why would I do such a stupid thing? No orchid, not only am I single, but I will never involve myself with a married woman again. ***********EDITED**********

o...Remember PBR? She is still out there being a hazard to the community. Her hands reach far, even to other states. The only one that can stop her is herself. Until she realizes she needs help and is a danger to herself and others, she will continue to reek havoc.

I would hate to see anything like that happen to you and your family.

sufdb...me too, but fortunately I don't know any psychopaths...I feel for ya.

o...ps: smile..... your face won't crack. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
That's what I had to tell my H.

sufdb...I do, but I suspect I would more if my exw would stop trashing me. Still, that is her issue, all I can do is endure it....but hey, it is making me stronger...It has become much harder to push my buttons, which has helped in relationship conflicts with my kids...and that is a good thing....growth is where you look for it....I really wish she would do the same...she has so many blessings, and opportunities...but just won't look at the half full part it seems.

<small>[ May 29, 2004, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

SNL/LA/'ufdb:

I think I've figger'd it out. You ARE a logical person. But that's your problem, not your salvation.

Don't get me wrong. This has bothered me for days because I always thought that *I* was a very logical person. Heck, I've got 2 graduate degrees and I'm doing what I always wanted 2 do professionally. I'm a scientist. We're logical as hell.

But logic failed me miserably in my M. Not that it wasn't/isn't useful. It's just not all that useful in the face of irrational drives that lead one 2 have an A or withdraw from one's spouse such that they choose 2 have an A.

I was devastated by my W's A precisely because my love for her has never been "logical." The "loss" of her cut my feelings right off at their knees. No amount of logic would fix that. I have 2 understand my feelings, and being a logical thinker, that required that I change gears completely 2 another transmission. And it's been a weird and fabulous journey.

You can be as logical as you want, post as many polls as you want. But if you never had the emotional connection with your xW that flew in the face of your logic, you'd never have had the 2ls 2 prevent your A, or even care enough about what you were doing 2 your xW 2 stop.

It should be possible 2 still care about an xSpouses well-being even after a DV that came as a result of infidelity.

The MB plans are methods, they're not principles. They're empirically-derived means 2 help us deal with and corral our feelings. No amount of logic will help us here - only help us organize the past in our minds (and we all have different minds and different memories of the past).

Take a look in2 the strange, sometimes unfathomable realm of feelings. Leave the logic for figuring out why the Buick won't start in the morning.

-ol' 2long

2Long, that is an excellent commentary. I too have had the tendecy to be logical. To me everything has to make sense. Life has to make sense. I thought if you use common sense and do not do anything irrational, think about each step you take, respect those around you, care for your family, nothing regretable could happen. I always thought trouble came to those who looked for it. I too am a scientist with two advanced degrees. But that has not helped me to understand why spouses make choices that hurt everyone. Maybe in terms of the overall question of this topic, being serve divorce papers is painful but there is a chance of talking through it. There is a possibility of reexamination before the gradual process that lawyers and the courts take to decide. But to be hit by an affair, when it has already happened and there is little that can be done but to suffer the consequences. That is probably the worse of two evils.

Originally posted by 2long:


I always thought that *I* was a very logical person. Heck, I've got 2 graduate degrees and I'm doing what I always wanted 2 do professionally. I'm a scientist. We're logical as hell.

But logic failed me miserably in my M. Not that it wasn't/isn't useful. It's just not all that useful in the face of irrational drives that lead one 2 have an A or withdraw from one's spouse such that they choose 2 have an A.

I was devastated by my W's A precisely because my love for her has never been "logical." The "loss" of her cut my feelings right off at their knees. No amount of logic would fix that. I have 2 understand my feelings, and being a logical thinker, that required that I change gears completely 2 another transmission. And it's been a weird and fabulous journey.

DING DING DING

That's the correct answer my dear friend!

Ice cream? My treat!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

How 'bout french vanilla on the side of some Beebop-a-Reebop-a-Rubarb Pie!?

-ol' 2long

Can I have partial credit??

Sufbd, I've always been drawn to the preciseness and clarity of your writing. You are very gifted

In MTBI speak, any natural preference taken to an extreme, becomes a weakness. I did notice this about myself and I do work on it. Being introverted, I'd guess this hasn’t been as high priority for you, nor would it ever need to be. You gotta live with you, and if you're happy to hell with everyone else.

I see it here all the time, people asking WHY, WHY, WHY did he do this, explain it to me!!! There is never a satisfactory answer for the BS. The can sometimes lay out the sequence of events, but they never understand the knife in the back, the udder betrayal, the callousness in the heart of the WS. No one ever gets a comforting answer to that.

You seem to be looking for the same kind of logical explanations as the BS does, it's almost a quest??? Good luck - Dru

Donald A. Norman is a pioneer in the narrow field of cognitive science. His 1988 book "The Psychology of Everday Things" is what brought him to international fame. His newest work revolves around creating well performing, easy to use even emotive machines. I'd like to quote him here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "The cognitive sciences grew up studying cognition--rational, logical thought," he notes. Norman himself participated in the birth of the field, joining a program in mathematical psychology at the University of Pennsylvania and later helping to launch the human information–processing department (now cognitive science) at the University of California at San Diego. "Emotion was traditionally ignored as some leftover from our animal heritage," he says. "It turns out that's not true.

"We now know, for example, that people who have suffered damage to the prefrontal lobes so that they can no longer show emotions are very intelligent and sensible, but they cannot make decisions." He cites scientific information that concludes that "emotion, or 'affect,' is an information processing system, similar to but distinct from cognition. With cognition we understand and interpret the world--which takes time," he says. "Emotion works much more quickly, and its role is to make judgments--this is good, that is bad, this is safe."

The two systems are intertwined at a biological level, Norman points out. "The affective system pumps neurotransmitters into the brain, changing how the brain works. You actually think differently when you are anxious than when you are happy. Anxiety causes you to focus in on problems; if something doesn't work, you try it again, harder. But when you're happy, you tend to be more creative and interruptible."


</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My point suf....is that by refusing to allow us to use emotion at all (only logical or cognitive thinking) when deciding between divorce or affair...you've in a sense, taken away a huge part of our abiltiy to make a decision at all...it can't be done. It's not healthy...not for us and not for you.

<small>[ May 28, 2004, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong> [QUOTE]

Has S, duped you all into thinking he was fully justified by his D? That his xw is a psycopath and deserves to have her family turned against her? That the xw is the only one of his family suffering from the D and that the children and other relatives are happy with his current lifestyle?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who used the word psychopath? Certainly not I and nor do I think that. I used the word "bitter" and yes I think repeatedly saying that your ex will burn in Hell when he dies or that he's Satanic or constantly talking about the "whore" who he had an A two years post divorce with qualifies as "bitter" not psychopathic, the two are not synonymous.

I also don't know where I said she deserved any bad treatment at all, I'm not at all sure how you inferred anything like that from what I wrote.

I'm not at all duped by S, I can read their old exchanges for myself and draw my own conclusions from what is posted in them. To me, it would seem that having divorce papers presented(not necessarily going through with it) would have been a better wake up call to the exw and maybe would have allowed for a real reconcilliation and healing much more than S having an A and giving fuel to a fire that was always simmering just below the surface in both people.

Is this post an example of the slow tortuous death WAT was talking about....

cause I'm changing my answer real soon..even if I can eat chocolate the whole way...

ARK

Where is Jeffers when I need him ?. -rh-

Perhaps I'm feeling bitter today, but here are my thoughts.

So between a divorce or an affair, I'd actually pick my husband opening his mouth and discussing the his problem with me rather than talking in code, withdrawing his thoughts and feelings, and seeking marital advice from less than upstanding women co-workers.

Why isn't that one of the choices? Wouldn't we all be a little better off if our spouses would have communicated their feelings and thoughts with us more rather than jumping into their own screwed up version of "problem solving"?

Neither divorce or an affair is the correct answer. And we as a society need to begin enforcing that or we will continue to spiral down the drain of humanity. What are we doing to one another as human beings?

firefly

Originally posted by star*fish:
Donald A. Norman is a pioneer in the narrow field of cognitive science. His 1988 book "The Psychology of Everday Things" is what brought him to international fame. His newest work revolves around creating well performing, easy to use even emotive machines. I'd like to quote him here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "The cognitive sciences grew up studying cognition--rational, logical thought," he notes. Norman himself participated in the birth of the field, joining a program in mathematical psychology at the University of Pennsylvania and later helping to launch the human information–processing department (now cognitive science) at the University of California at San Diego. "Emotion was traditionally ignored as some leftover from our animal heritage," he says. "It turns out that's not true.

"We now know, for example, that people who have suffered damage to the prefrontal lobes so that they can no longer show emotions are very intelligent and sensible, but they cannot make decisions." He cites scientific information that concludes that "emotion, or 'affect,' is an information processing system, similar to but distinct from cognition. With cognition we understand and interpret the world--which takes time," he says. "Emotion works much more quickly, and its role is to make judgments--this is good, that is bad, this is safe."

The two systems are intertwined at a biological level, Norman points out. "The affective system pumps neurotransmitters into the brain, changing how the brain works. You actually think differently when you are anxious than when you are happy. Anxiety causes you to focus in on problems; if something doesn't work, you try it again, harder. But when you're happy, you tend to be more creative and interruptible." /[quote]



thx star, the information you posted I concluded an opine about regularly, but it was not easy to arrive at. This is a process (for all of us) and because I don't poster or mask much (that is illogical) my struggles are easier to see, and explains why it is almost impossible to insult me, I have no emotional reaction to such things.....but what makes me crazy is unfairness (the predictable mapping of logic onto emotion...I supect long et al has the same problem). Unfortuneately unfairness is meaningless in emotional terms, so I must be careful about reacting strickly by logic when dealing with emotional issues, such as relationships....I had no one to teach me, I have had to figure this out myself (the good news is I am passing on this info to my kids), when I could observe my life was not working right, and logic was not fixing things...the affair was actually an emotional solution to my "problems" so to speak....I had spent years trying to convince my wife she should love me, and could not understand why she did not (I know now both the rational and emotional reasons why)....

on paper we should, but we have substantial emotional differences, when I realized that (about 10 years ago) I gave up, because I understood that cannot be fixed ( behavior can be modified, but inherentcy is well...inherent). It had nothing to do with her wrong me right, it just is, so no point in getting upset about it....rather take what the facts are, and arrive at a healthy resolution. Unbeknownst to me, in my arrogance of thinking I had logical control over my life and actions (and an affair was like...I dunno, so unthinkable as to not even be well.....thought about), instead I was wide open emotionally, and never had a clue.

The affair happened so fast, I was playing catchup all the way, trying to figure out what was happening (something important to logical people)...I knew it was wrong logically, discussed that fact endlessly with the ow, regularly we set freindship boundaries....seemed so um....logical at the time...in hindsite was so stupid. The ow was no sleazy secret tawdry thing, I have no interest in such, it was a friendship with a decent person....one which I tried to introduce to my exw. She was not interested, but had no complaint either...she just ignored me as she always did about my emotional stuff. That is not an excuse for you rabid dogs out there, just a statement of fact.

I am not emotional dysfunctional, I am just uncomfortable making emotional decsions, I have plenty of emotions, including years of marital despair (in part cause I made a logical decision to marry, and ignored my emotions which were very concerned). As the friendship became such I could not logically call it a friendship anymore, I was forced to deal with the internal conflict of my logic and emotions...and I did, I made a concious decisions to let my emotions dictate my actions, just as you all suggest..... I set specific boundaries, which I did not violate, but I wanted to see what the emotions I felt meant, and whether they were real....it was not passion, lust, pursuit, or such...the primary emotion was that I was actually likeable just for being me.....that all the things my exw disliked about me (and she said so regularly, so I was well-informed) this individual valued...that's it. The same things you see here, and many of you dislike, but a few...like.

It is about temperament folks, it always is. And even though I am the (un)fortuneate member of a very small temperament profile, that doesn't make me a bad person....just different, and therefore harder for me to find friends/mate to go deep with....Eventually logic caught up with emotions, and it was clear affairs are not a good way to build relationships, the ow knew this too, and it ended, permanently...each of us back to our lives. I frankly thought divorce was just routine, she had wanted it for years, and now she had the perfect weapon to forever blame me for her life.... that in fact is exactly what happened. But first I was suprised a bit, she did not want immediate divorce, which puzzled me, she supposedly wanted to work things out.... I didn't believe her, I have known for years we didn't love right (that is be a safe, healthy, nurturing place for both), just shared kids, and logistics....not that I thought she disliked me, just that she had no idea who I was, or any seeming interest in finding out....she is all about her emotional well-being, and protects herself aggressively. She pulled her weight, gave some emotionally to others (something which hurt me alot, cause that meant she could do it, so why not me?), and was quite responsible with anything dutiful, but what's the point? You don't need to be married for that, and I am sure we could be good exspouses in that regard. The thing is, who I am just irritates her, and she "feels" she must defend against that...and I "feel" rejected and devalued....I am who I am, I don't want to be anyone else, if that doesn't work than leave...I couldn't understand why she did not, but she said she would if she had enough money, my problem was relgious prohibition, so I didn't leave. I figured she would be reasonably happy to be rid of me, long as she was ok financially. It became clear fairly quickly that her idea of "recovery" was me groveling about, meeting her needs, and agreeing with her I am an awful person...and following all the rules.... her rules. Nowhere in this was the slightest interest in what I needed, or figuring out such things as why should we be married (logical people need to know this stuff, it is is essential to their well-being....emotional people could care less about the why's, judgeing by what I see here so often....they just "feel" like they want to be married, should be married).

But I had changed, I was determined to be seen, and I persisted in these efforts, which angered, and eventually infuriated my wife, who then(after instigateing a series of confrontational efforts to bend me to her will, one of which resulted in an unfortunate accident to her shoulder) filed for divorce....which was ok with me, we were in desperate need of boundaries, and that provided it. I asked her repeatedly, pleaded, to leave me alone, quit lovebusting, she wouldn't do it, she had to have control, and exercised that control through emotional coercion/manipulation...which not only led to bad outcomes, but absolutely convinced me my analysis of our fit, and unhealthiness to each other was correct. The affair was an absolutely inconsequential factor in the overall condition and reality of our marriage, nothing more than a very predictable occurence.... but becasue of who she is, and who I am, nothing else counts, and it is all about the affair.... There were no gaurantees, it would have taken a substantial change in my wifes behavior, for long long time, for me to reconsider my conclusions about our marital dynamics... but she wanted gaurantees and she wanted em now, and for the first time in her married life I told her no.....she reacted very badly to that...and still is.

I do not know how long she will continue to punish me, maybe forever, but it is infinitely better being punished as an ex than punished as a spouse, she never would have changed anything, she didn't have too, cause I was the "bad" one.... but at least now, natural consequences (which I had spent 30 years sheilding her from, which is me bad) have occured, and she has to react to that...

Anyways, I am not so interesting, but the role cognition and emotion play in conducting our lives is important and fascinateing. Be assured I have emotions, and act on them, I suspect I would have done moreso had I been in a safe marital enviroment (when I did express emotion, I was either neglected or trashed, not conducive to expressing such things...but definitely encourages one who is logical to find surcease in hyperlogic). Now I am free to be emotional more, and I am, my relationships with everyone kids, mother, other people has improved noticeably...with one glaring exception....I am absolutely forbidden to express emotions with my exw. I must reamain very neutral, or attentive to her, and not react to anything she says or does negatively. If I do not do so, I am threatened, and abused. That was unacceptable as a spouse, but can get by as ex'es. cause we can both hang up and/or go to our seperate homes, there is no real need or expectation to be good to each other.

This is a work in progress star and rest. My questions do not say emotions don't exist, or are not important, they are inquires, so I can see how this works in others...why does that annoy people? And why do folks continually assign meanings to me I have not specifically said? Is that some kind of emotional thing? IMO the most healthy way to live is with both cognition and emotion, and generally take no action until BOTH are in agreement....does that make sense? But I am guessing, from what I see, that relationships are governed much more by emotions, and that is a recipe for disaster. Yet the mantra is love is a decision, a very cognitive choice....but without first having it make sense....it is well....nonsensical. of little value, and in fact works poorly (unless one lucks out and has a safe partner, who is a good fit).

star...My point suf....is that by refusing to allow us to use emotion at all (only logical or cognitive thinking) when deciding between divorce or affair...you've in a sense, taken away a huge part of our abiltiy to make a decision at all...it can't be done. It's not healthy...not for us and not for you. [/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hmmm... I can't take anything away, I have no such power...but when you are conducting inquires, you must simplify all you can, otherwise you cannot be sure what the results mean....clearly the results of my poll, for those who took it, indicates a clear emotional basis for the decision (as well as a refusal to even try to be logical for discussion).....that surprises me cause I am logical....but I am not surprised cause I know emotions predominantly rule....but in this case, I was a bit surprised because I thought the liklihood an affair leads to a stronger marriage would be desireable (assuming that is true, but most seem to agree greater personal growth is better for marriages, so seems a reasonable...but probably too rational, conclusion).

<small>[ May 28, 2004, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

ff...Why isn't that one of the choices? Wouldn't we all be a little better off if our spouses would have communicated their feelings and thoughts with us more rather than jumping into their own screwed up version of "problem solving"?

sufdb....the poll was NOT about a person choosing to have an affair themself, but about how to view life events as opportunities, and compared two related ones....divorce summons and affair.

People do what you lamented about ff, often, in spades.....and nothing happens....an affair is pretty much impossible to ignore, so stuff happens. A divorce summons, is an attention getter also, but not in the visceral way an affair is...there is something about rejection for another person that really gets ones attention focused.

ff...Neither divorce or an affair is the correct answer. And we as a society need to begin enforcing that or we will continue to spiral down the drain of humanity. What are we doing to one another as human beings?

sufdb...well, affairs are almost never a good idea...but divorce often is a good solution...but first one should do appropriate self-introspective work, cuase that is the real problem....many of us have a poor understanding of ourselves, and lurch through life with reactive and emotional behaviors which are predictable poor strategies for life.

long..I think I've figger'd it out. You ARE a logical person. But that's your problem, not your salvation.

sufdb...so I should switch to being an emotional person <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

long...But logic failed me miserably in my M. Not that it wasn't/isn't useful. It's just not all that useful in the face of irrational drives that lead one 2 have an A or withdraw from one's spouse such that they choose 2 have an A.

sufdb...so what does one do, just beat the crap out of a spouse who infuriates you? Or try to figure it out, including whether you can be safely married to them (or they you)?

long...I was devastated by my W's A precisely because my love for her has never been "logical." The "loss" of her cut my feelings right off at their knees. No amount of logic would fix that. I have 2 understand my feelings, and being a logical thinker, that required that I change gears completely 2 another transmission. And it's been a weird and fabulous journey.

sufdb...agreed, you have to use both, without discounting the other....in my case, I preferred to be divorced, I clearly make my wife anxious, and distressed.

long..You can be as logical as you want, post as many polls as you want. But if you never had the emotional connection with your xW that flew in the face of your logic, you'd never have had the 2ls 2 prevent your A, or even care enough about what you were doing 2 your xW 2 stop.

sufdb...exactly. all I hade was an ethical system, which I was logically depending on to insure good behavior, and it failed for emotional reasons. This would not have happened, had I known what I do now, but then again it is unlikely we would have been married by the time the affair occured, or married at all...(at least not until we had resolved our serious pre-marital emotional conflicts).

long...It should be possible 2 still care about an xSpouses well-being even after a DV that came as a result of infidelity.

sufdb...absolutely, couldn't agree more, and promote it all the time...but all my emotional bretheren tell me I live on the good ship lollipop, and that ain't gonna happen....they have convinced me they are right.

long...Take a look in2 the strange, sometimes unfathomable realm of feelings. Leave the logic for figuring out why the Buick won't start in the morning.

sufdb...I do, I have, and I like it.