K, I asked Dylan about MC she said, "sure".

There's more to it than that, but I don't know where to start or what to say once I've started. Still reeling. Still pretty confused. Feel a little more confused by the right things though...

I dunno.

John

Ooops...

(still not used to sharing a computer)

John

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but I don't know where to start</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1. 888-639-1639 for appointments
1a. SYMC

There, I made that easy. You guys may both need a ton of IC---but I am a firm believer that you start the marriage counseling FIRST, to stabilize what you have, before you work on yourselves. This is opposite "convential" wisdom around here, but it's what the experts who save marriages recommend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Still reeling. Still pretty confused.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's because you're starting off on another relationship, among other issues. Get into either 1 or 1a---and you will begin to sort things out.

I hope the two of you follow through.

Everyone is always telling me... "listen to K, listen to K"...

I totally agree with what you say. MC first so that you can stabilize your relationship while you work on the other issues. I don't know about conventional wisdom, but I do know that without stabilization, I'm doomed, dooomed, doooooomed. Dylan and I did talk some over the weekend, and among the many topics we covered, one of the things said was that she wanted to not be intimite for 2 years. Just in case no-one got the memo, I'm not likely to be able to keep it together for 2 YEARS without having some intimacy in my life. And yes, I'm talking physical intimacy. I can say I will do fine, but we all know that the fog will descend and I will slip and screw things up again.

Do I need to set myself up for failure? Haven't I had enough of that already?

So, I called those refs. The Harley number I couldn't get through to. We are out of the service area for toll free dialing. I did speak with Penny though (in person) for a bit and have her rates. Talk about a super cheery positive personality. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Anyway, the rates are way more than I can comfortably afford. But I'm willing to go for it anyway. The way I look at it, this could be the most important investment of my life and a couple of grand invested to reap 50 yrs of benefits isn't really that bad when you think about it.

Anyway, Dylan isn't keen on the idea. She maintains that she has to sort out other stuff before she even looks at MC.

This is a critical time. Things could go either way right now. And from my point of view, they better go somewhere. I cannot (as I've posted) live indefinitely in this state. I love this woman... and want her in my life... and I wish I could say I'd do anything to make it so, but I have to admit, once and for all, that I'm not capable of doing anything. I'm capable of doing something but I have limitations.

I'll invite Dylan to join this discussion.

John

Deut,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did speak with Penny though (in person) for a bit and have her rates. Talk about a super cheery positive personality.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bleech. I hate cheery... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyway, the rates are way more than I can comfortably afford. But I'm willing to go for it anyway. The way I look at it, this could be the most important investment of my life and a couple of grand invested to reap 50 yrs of benefits isn't really that bad when you think about it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good. The rates are more that I can comfortably afford too---but I've got my wife looking over Penny's stuff as well. It is, as you mention, a long term investment that will yield better than anything else in your life. I can remember when I first showed up here on MB (before forum days), and was complaining because Steve had just raised the rates from $45/session to $60. Hahahahaha. Those were the days.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyway, Dylan isn't keen on the idea. She maintains that she has to sort out other stuff before she even looks at MC.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Dylan said "sure", and now what's the deal. I personally don't worry about "keen"---what I about is giving it an honest try; to listen and do the work. If she's willing to do that (with no promises of sex in a week, or anything else that she's scared of); this will have an excellent chance of working. And from how she's posting when you run out to the bars---it's clear that she still cares.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dylan and I did talk some over the weekend, and among the many topics we covered, one of the things said was that she wanted to not be intimite for 2 years. Just in case no-one got the memo, I'm not likely to be able to keep it together for 2 YEARS without having some intimacy in my life. And yes, I'm talking physical intimacy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's a memo. The things said by people who are coming out of affairs and long-term "bad marriages" do not have much value as accurate predictors of the future. What they accurately reflect is how that person has been feeling over the past few months to the present. Here's the deal, deut: you've hurt Dylan enough for her to say that she can't imagine sex with you for two years (and she probably meant 10). Knowing how you tend to run---she's setting you up for failure, so she won't have to face what she needs to work on (it's always easiest when you have someone to blame this on---as you well know, being an expert in it yourself).

You do the same stuff to her.

I'm telling you (and her) to not worry about the future---to get into counseling with Penny and do the work without worrying about the timeframe. My guess is that when it feels right---you both will start lowering the barriers and begin to meet each other's needs. And that this time frame will be months, not years; although neither one of you can even imagine that this is true.

Both of you need to just do the work. And not run away. Good on you for taking this first step---I'm proud of you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ August 16, 2004, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: K ]</small>

$45/session. Sheesh. Those were the days...

As for what's the deal... well, I'm not entirely sure. Officially, for now, there is no 'working on our marriage'. I think that should change. Particularily if we want to have any hope at all of saving it. I'm not talking intensive-put-everything-else-on-hold work, but at least a plan and a basic commitment would be a good place to start.

Obviously I cannot force Dylan to make this commitment. I wouldn't force the issue even if I could. She needs to make her own decisions and figure out what is really important to her.

For me, she is the love of my life. The woman of my dreams. I want to be married to her and spend every night for the rest of my life cuddling up in her arms. I'm willing to do a lot of work to make this happen. Like, a lot of work. But I do have my limitations... there is a point where my brain shorts out and chooses the exact wrong thing to do. I'd like to avoid that.

John

deut:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Officially, for now, there is no 'working on our marriage'. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">K, I asked Dylan about MC she said, "sure".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK---I see a bit of a disconnect. I would hazard a guess that Dylan means that she's not going to work on areas of the marriage that are uncomfortable for her (like sex) right now. If that's the case---I'm in complete agreement. I think the two of you should focus on areas where you can make real, substantial progress and not worry about failure. After the last couple years, I think an immediate plan to work on Dylan's lack of libido towards you would be bound to fail. You need to establish some trust back, and she's going to have to learn to let go of some past hurt---but probably in some other areas that she can be more successful in.

Go forward. If Dylan is truly dragging her heels, have her post to me.

No no no... Dylan is not willing to commit to working on the marriage. Sex is a whole 'nuther issue altogether.

But since it's been brought up, I suppose I should get that one clear. I don't expect her to jump on meeting my physical needs right away. Nor do I need/want a time frame for that to happen. In actual fact, the fact that she would need to 'work' on this at all makes me question whether I even have the desire to see us work out at all. My view on sex is that if the other person doesn't really want to do it, then I don't really either. I can masturbate and get about the same amount of satisfaction. Without the dirty feeling of involving another person who really just would rather rather not be intimite with me. I view that as a close step away from rape.

On the other hand, the idea that she's put a two year abstinance clause has me scratching my head and placing bets on how long it's going to be until I crack. I mean, if she finds herself 'in the mood' or otherwise desiring intimacy with me (THAT is my #1 emotional need... NOT the sex itself!) she's going to turn it off?!?!?! It's like, "hey, there's the one thing John has needed/wanted all these years, so lets just make it a rule that it can't happen." Oh yippee. Great idea!

And yeah, an immediate plan to work on Dylan's libido in my direction would fail. Again, that's not really what I'm asking for or looking for. But the idea of deliberately supressing it is just...

Howse this? When I feel wanted, it boosts me up. It makes me want to impress my mate, be better, do better, get more admiration and desirability... when I'm rejected, it makes me not want to give a shi... er... darn. It makes me feel like, "what's the point" and helps amplify the hopeless feeling that's behind my idiotic actions of self destruction. Does that make sense?

With a greater plan in place, these emotions do not rule me quite so overwhelmingly. Without the greater plan, I'm left with only my insecurities, loneliness and need to be wanted. Not happening. Had that for 7 months and look how well I did. So not only is it nigh unbearable for me emotionally, but it's also pointless. Hence, the "I give up" and me accepting Dylan's decision to not try to fix things.

If and when she decides that she would like to make a commitment to fixing us, and be ready to back it up with action (I'm NOT talking sex here) I will happily join in. But without the two of us working on things, it's doomed. I've had enough doom to last a lifetime. And I refuse to be put into situations where I'm guaranteed to fail just so that I can shoulder some more blame and own some more disasters. Got enough of those already.

As for Dylan dragging her heels, well really she's not. Without a commitment or desire to get into recovery, there's nothing to live up to and so by definition, no dragging her heels. I have brought her attention to this post, however and hope that she and thee can spark up a conversation.

John