Hi folks:

For those of you who don't believe that you can POJA a wayward spouse (it has to wait until recovery)---I'll tell you that I'm not making this up. This method is directly from the horse's mouth (or the horse's son---Steve Harley). I counseled with Steve for nearly a year, so let me save you the session fee$ by explaining.

When in Plan A, you do need to confront an affair and negotiate an end to it. Exposure to outside parties is an interesting topic---Steve was not adament about exposure six years ago when I was working with him, but Penny Tupy is very much so now (and I'd love to see the data to support this). Regardless, part of the betrayed spouse's responsibility in Plan A is to establish a consistent track record of good marital behavior: including Complete Honesty, willingness to use the POJA, and the elimination of lovebusters. In regards to saving the marriage, there are virtually no time these principles don't come into play (including spyware) during Plan A.

The conversation I outlined above for Bob was very similar to dozens of situations that I had with my fog-bound wife. The procedure is relatively simple---you ask yourself how your spouse will feel if you do "X". If the answer is horrible or angry or anything negative---you need to figure out whether there's a different way to do "X", whether "X" needs to be done at all, or if "X" is absolutely necessary, how to mitigate the hurt involved.

I gave Bob the procedure for doing "X" in this case, using the one-sided POJA and honesty. The reaction that he would have gotten from his wife is probably nearly the same that he got doing it his way---so what's the difference??

The difference is that when the affair is truly over, and the fog has begun to lift---the wayward spouse has to make a decision. Do they come back to the marriage? Or do they go off in a different direction. Plan A often looks like the most futile thing on the planet to the betrayed spouse: I was convinced that when I was in Plan A, I was having no effect at all on my wife. Her behaviors and actions were just like Bob's wife.

But after being in Plan B and having the affair end---my wife told me how much those Plan A efforts meant to her, and how, without them, she couldn't have imagined coming back to the marriage.

Plan A is an effort to end the affair, in a caring and thoughtful way. It's also a set-up for Plan B---so that when the affair ends and the WS's brain clears---they have memories of the good that you were trying to do those last few months of the marriage.

POJA=
Bob will agree to end any and all contact as soon as W agrees and sticks to doing the same.
Problem solved for BOTH of them.

(I know, I know... with a WS its never that easy).
Sadly, Selfishness Knows NO Bounds (and accepts NO boundaries).

Sure she's angry. Let her vent and bluster ... then she'll calm down.
Much the same emotional process you had to go through when you first found out about the A.

WS's get upset and rage at EVERY step of exposer.
All NORMAL, Normal, normal. (But never easy or comfortable to live with).

We have communicated over exposure albeit unconventionally.

I found the 'proof', copied it and left a note saying " discovered, copied and replaced. Nothing taken - Bob"

WW must've called OM immediately as in an hour she said to me "OM begs you not to send to GF as his son has just died". Calm, but very very sad.

I replied " I haven't decided what I'm going to do with it yet. Are you sure about the boy ? So many falshoods have surrounded us these past weeks".

WW " yes would OM lie about THAT ?"

And so I did nothing with them, OM GF did not request them in our second call. I did nothing except respond to OM by saying that I would have no reason to ever make unsolicited conmtact to anyone in his family ever again if he sent an NC letter anmd kept it. No threat, ust a statement of fact.

I heard nothing expect from OM GF who told me in our next call he was reconcoling liek mad, had gone dark even before son and was terrifed of what could happen. Still denying a PA but admitting and EA.

SO them OM GF called me, asking for any evidence I have. She needed to get him to admit his affair to continue reconiliation. " I am tired of the lies, Bob. Aren't you?" She said.

So I sent her the stuff. I don;t know how WW found out, I guess it must be OM.So, not exactly POJA, but not a surprise. I also sent WW a note today that described exactly what happened, along with the number OM called from and the time so she can verify I am not lying.

Tonight WW texted me a msg "please bring wine and bread on your way home".

A good sign.

Arrived home to find WW still here but very cold.

Shmaley, just wanted to clarify. Sorry, but I actually disagree with the statement you quoted. That can be true, but it doesn't have to be. CV

d_rose,

I posted a reply, but it got lost in cyberland. However, K was posting at the same time and articulated it much better than I did. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The bottom line is you have to be consistent. You have to use the POJA all the time. You can’t “pick and choose” the times to use it, otherwise your spouse will just follow that same example. That’s usually what leads to a very unhealthy marriage, and a much more difficult recovery.

-HD

I haven't read all of the posts here since K first cited POJA as reason to alert WS that Bob was providing info to OM's GF. I did read Pep's "enthusiastic" endorsement of K's recommendation.

I don't think this is one size fits all. Case in point: I don't believe a BS should alert a WS that he/she (BS) is about to expose an affair to OP's spouse.

If we can agree on that, it seems that POJA may not be operative until MUCH later in the crisis. IMHO, Bob may be at that point, maybe not.

WAT

Dave,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think this is one size fits all. Case in point: I don't believe a BS should alert a WS that he/she (BS) is about to expose an affair to OP's spouse.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I have this issue about using MB a la carte. Why on earth would you not let your WS know that the affair is going to be exposed? In the end, this isn't my opinion---this is what Steve Harley was recommending, and it's consistent with the material here on the website.

I am too sad and scared to engage in an academic discussion of POJA right now, that and I am a newbie. However I would appreciate someone explaining teh benefits either of us gain from this when my WW is in thi speriod of antagonistic fog.

mw " I am considering meeting OM GFs request for proof what do you think?"
WW " Arrrgh ! Kill ! Kill ! ARRRRGH "
me " well you have made your position very clear, we do not have enthusiastic agreement, however I'm going to do it anyway"
WW ( silently) " I will give OM enough notice to put some spoilers in place to reduce effectiveness of proof"

?? What use was that ?

My WW would not agree to do anything that involved either her or OMs discomfort or my apparrent gain right now so what use is POJA now? Just clumsty, unnatural words that adds an unusual "mechanical" threat to every discussion.

Please call me stupid, whatever you want but this looks like legalistic application of the MB tenets even though one party is unable to contribute to or benefit from it. I do not clkaim to understan dmuch of MB even though I am trying to learn fast.

Help me with this please.

I would be happy to have this explained.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why on earth would you not let your WS know that the affair is going to be exposed? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">K, I think the reason I too don't believe in doing this in all cases, 100%, is because the WS can be soooooo unpredictable with their behavior. I truly feared that if my H found out I was exposing his A, he was going to attempt to kick me out of our home, move himself in, and try and take custody of our children.

Do I think he could have succeeded at this? No. Do I think my children would have been traumatized in the process, and immeasurable hurt done because of H's emotional/mental instability? Yes.

These are choices I made, based on what was going on in my own personal situation. My H's reactions frightened me. We couldn't even POJA in MC on the issue of exposure! To him, it was unacceptable for any reason. To me, it had to happen.

Is that MB alacart? Probably. Like a salad bar, take what you like and leave the rest. As soon as H and I were able to communicate, even before reconciliation (but when the A was over FINALLY), I did practice POJA. One-sided sometimes, but H was focused on NOT doing anything else to harm our children. He found his center.

I agree with what you are saying, K, I just also know that I tried that in my own sitch, and it didn't go over so good.

SS

**edited to add: My H didn't care if I exposed HIM. However, he was under great pressure from OW to have HER not exposed. And he was willing to go to great lengths, to include inadvertantly hurting his boys, to try and "control" me in that way. And his rage came in his frustration at not being able to "control" me. H even went so far as to tell me more than once that the A never happened, that he lied to me to get me to D him, and if I told anyone any different he would "destroy" me. So, I did what I needed to do, and I didn't talk to him about it. Now that he is defogged completely, he totally understands where I was coming from, and I understand where he was coming from. I think we can trust that process when the fog clears and communication is open again.

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

Want to start off with my support to what BOB has done this far, placed in this position( Never thinking any of us would be here ) I think you did what had to be done and followed MB as best as possiable.

I agree this thread would confuse the crap out of NEWBIES , and being someone here awhile it was pretty out there to me as well .

The ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL ,,, Is the perfect way to sum it up .

MB has worked for some being done by the "BOOK" Others of us here have had to use what we could grab and learn as we went along ,, and that 2 has worked .

We are all indeviduals and not here to be BRAIN WASHED that we have to do it this way or thats why it will fail , or thats the ONLY way it would work ..

MY point is BOB is learning and doing , yes it is great to give him other suggestions and more MB materials to read and aply .

BUT ,, thats not saying it will not contridict something else we learn in other princepals ,, its spliting hairs .

TO a FOGGED WS BOUNDERIES are DEMANDS .
POJA to a WS means your manipulating me and if the BS does COMPRIMISE they may be told the WS manipulted them !

Every situation alittle different ,,, some say WS says this or that out of anger and won't follow through on there threat ....

BUT if you know your WS you know witch ones they will follow through with and won't .

SEE "one size does not fit all "

Some times it all is a roll of the dice ,,, or there would be no A's or D !!!!

This is not a perfect science for that reasons , it is a guide line . JMO .

With all that rambling ,,, BOB good luck and I would continue to expose and PLAN A till there is N/C .BE strong

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">mw " I am considering meeting OM GFs request for proof what do you think?"
WW " Arrrgh ! Kill ! Kill ! ARRRRGH "
me " well you have made your position very clear, we do not have enthusiastic agreement, however I'm going to do it anyway"
WW ( silently) " I will give OM enough notice to put some spoilers in place to reduce effectiveness of proof"

?? What use was that ?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You still expose. If you feel that this WW response of "spoiling" exposure is really an issue (it's not), you could always do so 30 seconds after the discussion.

The use of it is that you are exhibiting good marital behaviors that your wife will remember after her affair is over. You are helping to rebuild the marriage, even if you get " Arrrgh ! Kill ! Kill ! ARRRRGH " as a response. If you don't understand that---I can't help you.

SS: If there are safety issues involved, then separation is usually recommended as the first course, before any other issue.

I can't understand the idea of giving your WS and their OP a heads up on everything you plan to do. POJA has a key word in it....joint. It can't be practiced on a one way street. Maybe it can very late in the "crisis" period, but when the BS is fighting for their marriage to survive another day, they need every possible tool to work with. You cripple those tools when you inform the "other side" (as it usually happens to be) of your intended moves.

That was my case. After D day was past and contact started back again, I was contacted by OM's W for my take on the situation. Me, trying to be so "above board" filled my WW in on pretty much everything said and any future words that came to mind. Every single time my attempts at POA (minus the J) came back to bite me in the a**....hard. WW and OM were one step ahead of me and it was my own fault. It took numerous 2x4's from folks here to get me to wake up to the fact that there are times for POJA (when it's joint) and there are times that the gloves come off in defense of the marriage.

I think Bob is completely justified in what he did, but justified even more by the fact that the GF specifically asked for it.
It really would have seemed silly for Bob's conversation with her to go "So you want me to send you the proof? Right now?....Well, let me talk to my W about it and I'll get back with you."

Bob, stay the course you're on. I know for sure you've got a better grip on the MB ideas at this early time in your situation that I probably do today after 18 months.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
If you don't understand that---I can't help you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had a math teacher at school called Mr. Savage; He was too, a fearsome man!. He has a great reputation having been a senior don at the school for many years. However...some of us, even some bright kids...didn't really get on in his class. If someone didn't understand he would just repeat the text slower and louder until the kid backed off or the penny dropped. I'm afraid the penny didn't drop for me much with him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I was moved down into a 'second stream' Math class 2A. My parents were gutted as I was considered to be smart, but, well, can't argue with test results. I went into Mr. Stone's math class. I absolutely thrived: If a pupil didn't understand the textbook, Mr Stone would work out an analogy that would help each particular student understand using an example from his own life. With me, I was a music and Rugby crazy kid !I will never forget his integral calculus explanation using a rugby scrum ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I have used it with my daughter, but changed it to horse riding !

We laughed, we learned. I graduated an A (hons) Math student.

Years later I met Mr Stone in the pub after we had played squash. I shook his hand and thanked the now balding teacher.
I said " Sir, can you tell me something....why did you never get to teach PRIME math class when you are such a fantastic teacher ?"

He replied. " I Taught prime class for years until I was good enough to teach 2A, Bob".

K, This is real example, I am not being clever or trying to be hurtful.

I need your help, and understanding not your brickbats. PLEASE help me to understand this alien stuff, K. Do not shout at me, I feel bad enough. I may be slower at learning some of this stuff than others, but I am TRYING, K, God knows I am TRYING.It is not instinctive for me.

HELP me understand the hard stuff, PLEASE I need your help. It is clear you are Mr Stone, please don't teach me like Mr. Savage.

Thanks. {{{{{k}}}}}

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SS: If there are safety issues involved, then separation is usually recommended as the first course, before any other issue. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We already were separated. And "safety issues" is such a broad statement. Was I worried he would hit me? No. Was I worried that my children would be hurt by his REactions to my actions (ie, attempting to get me out of the house, get custody of our kids, etc. to "lash" back at me)? Yep.

So, I actually took the advice I got from a very respected poster here at MB and did not power struggle with H anymore. I did what I needed to do, lined my ducks in a row, got a Plan and stuck to it, and my process unfolded like so many here do. The A ended, H and I reconciled, he came home, and we are 5 months into recovery.

I love MB. I love the concepts, the support, the process. For many different reasons. Number one, it helped me grow up, find myself, my courage, and showed me I didn't "need" my H.

Bob, don't second-guess yourself. The OM's GF asked for something she needed to move on. She didn't create this mess her life is now. She just wants to know what she is up against, what she needs to consider if she can move past. That is what we all as BS's want to know.

WHEN your WW defogs, I believe that she will understand what you did. She might not AGREE, but she will understand. That is how it worked out for H and I. And we had MAJOR exposure anger episodes. Pressure from the OP is very powerful motivation for the WS to respond to. Once his thumb is not on her head anymore, so to speak, her behavior and emotions will shift.

Bob, try not to focus so much on this one incident. I know it is hard, with it just happening, and there is so much going on right now. Try and focus on your long-term goal. WHY you exposed. To end the A (which is ALWAYS ugly, BTW), reconcile with your WW, and recover your M. Everything you are doing is to that end. You are doing the best you can in the situation you are in.

Say some prayers, have some quiet-time with yourself, check in with yourself. You are doing very well. You are very brave. It is not easy facing the anger-beast. I know.

SS

double, sorry...slow today!

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: krusht ]</small>

Bob,
I totally agree with SS. Don't spend so much energy on this one incident.

PLUS,...IT IS DID/DONE!

HOW it was done is a woulda coulda shoulda dialogue that will go on till infinity.

K says you shoulda consulted W, but then DO IT ANYWAY if she disagreed. (Which of course she did, protecting the OM with every once of her being.) Its over and done with.

Move on to consoling and rebuilding.
k

I have no heart to post my usual thousand times today. I have had a long, hard work and travel day and an ever harder emotional day.

Thank everyone for your support and advice.

I just walked my dog ( I pray on those walks!).

It occurred to me what happened to my WW today:

She was finally exposed as a liar, and adulteress, a family-breaker and a 'bit on the side' of the OM. There is no longer the faintest hope that OM GF thinks she is a nice person, who was just interpreted wrongly. OM GF found out that WW is a liar, and adultress who TRIED HER BEST through love, sex, word, gifts, deeds to steal away OM from his son and partner. Only OMs reticence to leave GF and desire to have only flattery and sex from WW stopped her.

I am sure that WW thinks OM GF hates her with all her heart today, and with justification.

My poor baby. Today is the day that her fantasy hit the oncoming freight train.

She has ONLY me in the world now, and she doesn't love or even LIKE me at the moment. She has lost OM, even as a lover, or EA, she has lost ANY CHANCE of OM GF allowing contact between OM & WW.

She has lost any chance of her heartfelt fantasy coming true.

Her kids have chided her for all the time she spends away from them in Karate. That stung I know.

My poor baby, I could cry for her. I have prayed that God will make me what I need to be for her now in this time of her greatest need ever.

I am all she has, yet she doesn't want me. I must be attentive so she doesn't fall too low too fast.

I love her. Thats all I have to say. I love her with all my broken heart and I will do all I can to keep her safe and happy.

Thanks

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

I think you are exactly right, Bob. One night, I sat on the phone with my H for 90 minutes listening to him cry about losing OW's "love." It was soooo hard for me, BUT, I realized we began our relationship as friends, and that was were it had to begin again. So I listened to him cry about his love for another woman, because he is the best friend I have ever had. And he still is.

You are right. She does need you now more than ever. It seems she won't accept you, but sometimes these things change so quickly. Be her friend, as much as she will let you. Her life does look pretty poopy to her right now. Be her lighthouse, Bob.

SS

Bob,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I need your help, and understanding not your brickbats. PLEASE help me to understand this alien stuff, K. Do not shout at me, I feel bad enough. I may be slower at learning some of this stuff than others, but I am TRYING, K, God knows I am TRYING.It is not instinctive for me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like the last sentence. It is not instinctive. In general, when dealing with an affair, your instincts are nearly 100% wrong. If something feels good to you in regards to an action---be very hesitant. It's probably the exact wrong thing to do.

What have I been telling you that you don't understand? It's very hard to focus on these boards---you've been getting a ton of advice from well-meaning posters who do not have the consistency of knowing MB. I'd tell you to do counseling with the Harley's, except I know that this is nearly impossible when overseas.

The MB concepts (Protection, Care, Time, Honesty) and tools (POJA, etc.) are to be used pretty much at any stage of an marriage---from fighting an affair to keeping a 50 year marriage happy. I'm not upset at you for what you've done---I'm just trying to illustrate how you should be behaving with regards to future encounters with your wife (about anything---whether it's exposure of the affair to the Karate club or whether to have a '90 or '91 Bordeaux for dinner).

Do you not see how the Policy of Joint Agreement works?

Do you not see how to apply it "one-sidedly"?

Do you not understand how to use Radical (Complete) honesty?

or, do you not understand how it could do good in your situation?

And I'm trying not to shout---although it is difficult, given the state of advice given on the board.

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: K ]</small>

[quote]
Do you not see how the Policy of Joint Agreement works? Yes I do. SAA makes it clear

Do you not see how to apply it "one-sidedly"?absolutely not. Like maintaining good manners with a person in a coma. It upholds a pinciple but I don't see what good it does until the person comes out of the coma. Loving , caressing sex is also a great policy in successful marriages but it is frankly not appropriate at this stage of my marriage. Don't see how one sided POJA isn't an LB: "Why discuss it then do as you want anyway ? GRRR " as my WW said tonight over my exposure.

Do you not understand how to use Radical (Complete) honesty? sorta - total honesty can be brutal, need convincing

or, do you not understand how it could do good in your situation? see above

Thanks K.