WW knows I send proof to OM GF - very very angry

Well I guess it was bound to happen.
OM must've called WW and told her I sent the proof.

She is angry, sad, spiteful, vengeful.

says " I asked you not to give it to her ! Why did you send it just because SHE asked ? !!!"

Says its all over now, theres no chance of saving our M.

I do wonder if this was the right thing to do for ME, although it was right for OM GF.

It is the day of OMs estranged son's funeral today too. I am working away.

I feel terrible like I did a really bad and stupid thing. My hands are shaking.

Dear God, please use this mess for good. And do not make my WW finally leave over this.

And let me be functional for the day, I am wrecked right now.

Bob,
I feel you did the only thing you could do, please don't beat yourself over it. Your W must let go of OM! It's not up to you when she will do this. It may take weeks or months for my W to accept she must give up her A partner. You did nothing improper. Think about it Bob, why would she not want OM GF to know the turth?
So it would be safe to reignite the A at a later date is why.

You did the right thing. I did the right thing going to PlanB and accepting the fact my W is not in our home. These hard things that we have done, are not of our own choice. If it were up to you and I we would be happily married enjoying our lives and loving our wives. It is our wives who have forced us into these very uncomfortable, painful positions of applying tough love, boundaries and the upheavel of their destructive fantasy worlds.

Take heart Bob, this too shall pass. This was inevitable and if exposure forces her out the door I dare to say, she would have went anyway...just at a later date. I know that's how I sleep at night, or don't sleep at night. I hope you catch my meaning.

Hey BP,

You hang in there!!! Remember, YOU are not responsible for your W's feelings...

You're doing a great job and doing what you feel you must do to protect your family. You are in a battle for your family right now, and you are winning...

Your W may leave, but I suspect that she won't... Think about it:

* OM doesn't want her...
* Your W doesn't have the finances to start out on her own...
* You've been in a great plan-a...
* She's in withdrawal from the fantasy of the A
* She will eventually come out of her fog... it may take a while, but she will.

You can acknowledge her anger, but don't try to "fix" it for her... it is HER responsibility!

Semper Fi,
RIF90

Bob Pure

I just wanted to let you know that I have been following your story.

Hang in there!!!!! Her reaction is normal!!!!
Of course she is mad and "someone" has to be responsible.

And of course this "someone" is "you" for her right now. She's in complete "fog".

You didn't do anything wrong!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

hugs
bb

RIF 90 your summary of the facts is true, but I am still frightened. I pray she stays in my house an dlife while she works out her anger against me.
She told me once before that I had thrown away any chance of saving our marriage, yet she stayed.

I pray she will do the same now.

I am frightened.

Blondblossom, I know you are right.

I know that the lie at the heart of this affair is now completely out in the open. There is no more deceit.

I pray this does not work against me.
I want wy wifes love bcak and today I did something which has made her very sad and angry.

* sigh *

If she has made me dinner when I get home, we'll be OK. If not, well....we'll see. That could be a shibboleth.

I have a big day at work today - press interviews and stuff. I am normally good at this but all I can think of is my lovely wife and how angry I have made her. I pray one day soon she realiss that it was braver for me to do this, than not. I did it out of love, not spite.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bob Pure:
She is angry, sad, spiteful, vengeful.<hr /></blockquote>....and very predictable.

Bob, you knew to expect this, right? You ARE Public Enemy #1. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Don't forget that not only were you doing the right thing for GF, you were also doing the right thing for Bob and your wife - hopefully driving a stake into the heart of the affair from the other side.

Also, the fact that she responded as expected provides comfort in knowing that she's still a normal WS. Thus, further decisions on your part can be based on tried and true approaches.

WAT

Hey Bob, WAT is right. They always get mad, but they always get over it. She will get over it. What you did just did MORE to burst her little fantasy bubble than anything else you could do. She realizes that her valued love letters look pretty sleazy when exposed to the light of day and is probably quite embarrassed.

Bob,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> ...but I am still frightened. I pray she stays in my house an dlife while she works out her anger against me.
She told me once before that I had thrown away any chance of saving our marriage, yet she stayed.
<hr /></blockquote>Never fear the truth when you are morally right.

Unless your W hit the lotto, how's she going to live on her own? Again, I don't think the OM's GF is going to welcome her into her home... and you said that the OM doesn't have the means to support your W, much less himself...

Past behavior is a good indication of future performance... Your W didn't leave the last time... she most likely won't this time. My W threatened to leave when I found out about her first A... be she never did... Common threat by many WS...

Try to focus on your work today... don't worry about dinner... if she has it ready, thank her... if not, then take her and the kiddos out to Chuck-E-Chees for dinner... make it a family night...

Remember, you are not responsible for her feelings... Keep up your plan-a and be the best that you can be... Be her knight in shining armor... she's going to need it... she's crashing hard righ now...

Semper Fi,
RIF90

Bob, of course your wife is angry. Did you really expect any other reaction? You are a very intelligent man, so I know you didn't, but it IS hard to be the target of that anger and it IS normal to "second guess" your actions because of what you fear might be the fallout from that action.

If I can say anything that might give you some comfort it would be this; virtually nothing you do during your wife's withdrawal is going to register in her as a "positive," at least not until later when she clears the fog and can see just what you did during a horrendous time. Right now this is more akin to the "buzz bomb" attacks on London. As you push against this "evil," the evil will try to fight back to terrorize you. Stay the course. As WW II was long, so will this be. But the cause is just and the outcome ,and in God's quite capable hands.

While I know it might sound a little wierd, she is hurting and she is focused on "her" pain right now. She will interpret anything that she thinks will increase the "pain" (i.e., "attacks"{truth} on the OM, the probable increased destabilization of their affair, etc.) as "hurtful" to her and will react with emotional anger, her "Taker" in complete control.

It's a tough time to go through, no doubt about it. But it's the RIGHT thing to do, and the right time to do it. THEY "prospered" in deceit and lying and secrecy. That is HOW sin is allowed to grow and appear "justified" to the sinners involved.

But the "light of day" exposes the sin for what it is, ugly and totally self-indulgent. No longer can it be hidden and ignored, it must be dealt with. Yes, the continued denial and anger may still be there for a while (how else to justify something that THEY know is wrong for them to have engaged in?), and it IS necessary for your wife to see the depth of your pain and anguish also. There will be a time when she is past withdrawal and will begin to understand just what SHE has done TO you. That's when the guilt will replace the anger.

Here's another reality; one can "run and hide" from God, but there is no place one CAN run to where God cannot see and know exactly what you are doing. Your wife knows this too, even though she still thinks she can. Remember the pain that Judas felt when the reality of what he had done hit him? The utter contempt for himself that Peter felt when the **** crowed and the reality of his weakness and denial of Christ hit him full force? This is just the beginning for her pain. Before long her anger will begin to be directed at herself for what she has done. THAT is when you will need to be the "model of forgiveness" that she will need, her anchor even when she thinks that you should "hate" her. That is when recovery will begin.

Bob, right now you are still in the "destabilization of the affair" mode. You WILL hear "hateful" things. She WILL very likely threaten to leave, may actually leave for a while "to get her head straight" or some other escapist reason.

She WILL likely try to blame you for everything and tell you that there is "no hope" for the two of you. Don't believe it.

Let me add a caution for you because I see you as an "impatient fixer". Since you have admitted to your "nature" of seeing things in a "short time frame" to fix (i.e., money, etc.) you have to remind yourself EACH DAY that relationships DO NOT grow, or get fixed, in a short time, especially when there has been deep emotional wounds that need healing. You have to think about it on the basis of a "medical recovery" from a severe trauma. The GOAL is full recovery, the reality is that it will take and be accomplished by "one day at a time," sometimes painful to get to the "next level" but NECESSARY for continued healing and restoration. It requires a firm commitment to "see it through to the end," to endure when necessary, to forgive and to ask for forgiveness whenever it is needed, to "patiently wait on the Lord and His timing."

Remember, too, that there ARE two people involved in the affair. Your wife can fantasize all she wants, but she cannot control the OM's thoughts and behaviors any more than you can control hers. Right now he is getting a "full dose" of reality. Right now, the things that he thinks are important to him are in danger because of HIS actions. Right now he is facing the reality that nothing he can do will ever give him "one more day" with his deceased son. His "time" for that is over. He cannot make it "right" anymore. The book on that part of his life is closed.

Now his relationship with his GF and the child of that relationship is in direct danger of being "ripped" from his life too. All because of HIS actions. So let's "assume the worst" for a minute. Suppose in their anger and pain they decide to "take up their affair again." So what? Do you really think that their "fantasy" can ever be rebuilt again? No more so than the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, or Santa Claus can be "real" to a child anymore once they have "learned" or "been told" the truth. There is a fatal crack in their relationship...and it's called REALITY. Truth or fiction? Truth wins every time.

There comes a time in every Wayward Spouse's life during recovery when they "wake up" one day and realize that what they have been seeing from their Betrayed Spouse IS love. It's not the "Hollywood" version of "exciting and tingly" lust feelings. It is the sort of love that "bears all things." We humans ARE by nature a selfish race. "Looking out for Number One" is our NORMAL behavioral stance. It takes LOVE to deny self, to take up your "cross" daily, and to serve another for their good.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. (1Cor.13:4-8a, NIV)

If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent - not to put it too severely. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. The reason I wrote to you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven - if there was anything to forgive - I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes. (2Cor.2:5-11, NIV)

For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. (2Cor.16-20a)

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, fadtons and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. (Gal.5:19-6:2, NIV)

Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. (Eph.4:29-5:2, NIV)

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for the saints. (Eph.6:10-20, NIV)

Bob, the battle has been joined. Check your armor and stand with God in faithful obedience to His commands. "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of is love."

God bless and strengthen you in this time of trial. May you feel His peace and comfort and rest in the sure knowledge that God IS in control.

You did the right thing.
Sure, she is going to sit around and thow accusations at you because you are not giving validity to her affair by supporting her in it, and sadly, part of what she may be feeling is a sense of betrayal because you are not protecting her.
It is probably quite an eye opener, goold ol'trustworthy Bob isn't there for her in a way she knows he knows is important.
Gads, it's like buying a drunk more beer and when you won't for their sake and yours, they turn on you.
Because they are DRUNK. That's her, it's becasue she is in her fog.
Can guarantee you that a year from now, if this woman is the person , deep down inside, that you believe she is, not only will she be back in your arms, she will be humiliated and horrified by herown behavior.
Your steady heart, standing your ground, will win out in the end.
Lay your foundation, keep your boundries and as much diginity as you can. You will thank yourself for being firm with love.
Been there, I know this is true. Worst experience of my life and maybe yours. Keep your faith, whatever your faith may be, and you will keep your strength.
YOU DID THE RIGHT THING FOR YOU TOO.

Bob, I only wish I would have done this 2 1/2 years ago. I agree with everyone else you have save yourself a painful future. Whether she stays or goes is not written yet. But if she stays and you always leave the door open for the A to re-ignite you'll never have a full nights sleep. You have brought closure to a very painful chapter in your life. If can only get better. I admire your courage.

Bob:

Good for you!

Sadly, it sound like your WW is showing her true self. Sorry to be blunt, but is this the type of person you want?

Live your life. You only have this one chance at it. Go on, recover, rebuild. If you WW suddenly wakes up one day down the road, well good for her. By then, you will be seeing that you are a worthy and honorable man, who does have value, who brings value to others' lives, and who is worthy of the love of a good woman.

If she sees that, then she'll know what she threw away.

I just said a prayer for you Bob. hang in there.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Sadly, it sound like your WW is showing her true self. Sorry to be blunt, but is this the type of person you want? <hr /></blockquote>Uphill - Give us all a break. What a totally selfish and self-serving question. None of "wants" the person who is drowning in an affair, we want the person we know our spouse can be. We also know that during an affair, we are NOT going to hear "nice things" from our spouse. We ARE NOT focusing on "today," we are focusing on helping our spouse through a "major illness" and into restored health.

Your attitude displays a lot of your own personal pain and a very unforgiving nature. I would surmise that if anyone did anything that you felt was a personal affront to you, you would cut them out of your life with no chance for change or redemption.

Thank God that God did not view us with that attitude.

That IS NOT, at the very least, a Marriage Builders attitude.

[ September 01, 2004, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bob Pure:
Well I guess it was bound to happen.
OM must've called WW and told her I sent the proof.<hr /></blockquote>So sorry, Bob. I'm only glad you knew this would be the reaction.

I (I can only imagine how you feel) am *very* confused over one thing. I think I know the answer--which is bad--but...Why did the OM contact your WW? I guess so much for him wanting to rebuild his family--one of which he is burying today. Priorities are still very much disarray with him, I suppose. Shouldn't have to worry about him, though.

Keep yourself busy. Get prepared for this trip. Keep your head up. Keep praying.

Bob et all,

I know Uphill's post is not MB proper; however, being one who went through the rollercoster ride for 15 years, I have to agree with him.

I found the following on Barbara De Angelis's website, and am posting to show a somewhat different view. I changed the genders. I am tired of everyone assuming that men are the only adulterers.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> How Should You Deal With a Cheating Partner Who Denies Having an Affair?

I just found out that my wife of fifteen years has been cheating on me. I’ve suspected this for a while, but wasn’t sure until a friend confessed that he knew about it. I confronted her with the information, but she still totally denies it. Should I try to keep my family together and hope she will get over this?

What do you hope your wife will “get over” – Her total disrespect for your feelings, her flagrant dishonesty, her moral weakness, her selfishness, her denial, or her lack of morality? Wake up and face the facts! Not only is she having an affair and breaking your marriage vows, but when confronted, she doesn’t even have the courage and decency to tell you the truth! She is treating you like dirt. You know it, and she knows it.

Here is the real question you should be asking yourself: “Why do I want to stay with a woman who is behaving in this disgusting manner towards me? Why do I want to remain married to someone who obviously doesn’t care enough about me to be honest?” Remember – affairs are symptoms of relationship already in trouble. Even before the infidelity, I have no doubt that there have been some significant problems in your marriage, whether you acknowledged them or not. So ask yourself, is this marriage as it truly is, not as you wish it would be, worth saving? Or has it been over for a while, and you just haven’t admitted it to yourself.

…. Our fear of loss overrides our fear of being hurt or humiliated. Thus, we stay with women we should leave, put up with behavior we shouldn’t tolerate, and feel we will be successful if we “keep the marriage together,” even if that marriage is totally dysfunctional.

I think, in part, this is what’s happening to you. You speak about “keeping your family together.” So I ask you, what does that really mean? That you all get to live in the same house, even though your heart is broken? That none of your friends or family will think there is a problem because there won’t be an “official separation?” That your kids will mistakenly believe everything is fine as long as Mommy doesn’t move out, even though Mommy’s out screwing someone else? That’s not my idea of “together.” What you are describing is called “denial.”

If you want to be a good father to your children, and a loving caretaker to your own inner self, you will inform your wife that she has to move out immediately – no discussion, no excuses, no negotiation. By lying and cheating, she has lost her right to live with you as her husband and live in the house as part of the family. Perhaps being kicked out will wake her up out of her stupor and help her to see the light. If this occurs, she confesses the truth, and begs for another chance, you can consider the possibility that you may be able to resurrect your relationship only under the following conditions:

What To Do When You’ve Been Cheated On:

1. You and your partner physically separate immediately. If you wish to stay in your home, she should be the one who must leave.

2. If she wants another chance, she must immediately break off all contact with her lover – no phone calls, no letters, nothing.

3. She must immediately enter intensive therapy in order to determine why she had the affair, to understand what problems within herself and the marriage caused her to cheat.

4. You must also immediately enter intensive therapy in order to determine why you ignored the warning signs of her infidelity for so long, to deal with your feelings of anger and betrayal, and to take an honest look at the relationship.

5. If after some time, you both feel you are seeing your relationship through new eyes, and think there might be a chance for reconciliation, you will need to enter intensive therapy together.

6. If after undergoing intensive therapy together, you both feel you have learned enough to understand how your relationship fell apart, and feel willing to try again, you will need to start from the beginning. YOU CANNOT GO BACK TO THE OLD RELATIONSHIP. IT IS DEAD. IT FAILED. YOU JUST START FROM SCRATCH, BUILDING A NEW RELATIONSHIP JUST AS ANY COUPLE DOES.

This means you continue living apart and begin to date, getting to know one another again. You have new ground rules, new goals for yourselves individually and for the relationship, and new skills with which to create healthy communication and intimacy. You take it slowly, and see how it goes.

I cannot emphasize strongly enough how important it is to follow these guidelines if you wish to salvage a relationship that has ended in infidelity. And I know how difficult it may sound, and how much courage you will need to stick to your resolve when your wife is crying and pleading with you to forgive her, but don't give in. The only chance you have of experiencing a true and complete healing on this issue is to see the situation as it truly is, and to start treating yourself with the love and respect you would hope one day to receive from the woman you love.
<hr /></blockquote>

Bob, this quote comes to mind. Forgive me if Foreverhers already wrote this quote. "The truth shall set you free." Just because your W and the OM wanted to continue telling their lies doesn't mean you or GF had to comply. Getting this all out in the open is the best thing.

I am going to write a disclaimer before I write what I'm going to write next. This isn't necessarily MB, but CV. So take it with a grain of salt. If she goes on blaming you I might say something like, "W, you have told me how wonderful your R is with OM. You have told me how you want to be with him. I'm confused. I would think if this is all so beautiful you would be happy the truth is out." OK, maybe you shouldn't say that. Just my fantasy life about your situation operating here. Hang tough Bob! We're here for you!

RAG, I think much of what you quoted from Barbara Di Angelis was pretty good. However, because of what I went through and what I've read about As, some of what she wrote is untrue. "Affairs are symptoms of relationships already in trouble." I just saw a CNN special on infidelity, and also the author of "Not Just Friends" both said this is a myth. As can happen in good Ms. In my case every star that could have been alligned to foster the environment for an A to occur were in place.

"You must also immediately enter intensive therapy in order to determine why you ignored the warning signs of her infidelity for so long" is a statement I also disagree with. In my case every gut feeling I had I confronted H. I asked him several times if he was having an A. My biggest mistake is that I was so naive I didn't understand how people become such liers in As. I actually thought if I asked my H if he was having an A he would tell me. My therapist told me months ago that sometimes the BS can do everything right and still there S will have an A, or lie about it.

Just my 2 cents. Plus, Barbara might be a bit more prone to recommend ending the M because I believe she has been Med several times herself. CV

I'm a newbie but sounds like you did the right thing to me. I know that I will be doing something similar when the time comes. Hang in there I'm praying for you.

Forevehers that was one of the most inspirational posts I have seen. Thank you!

CV55 said: <blockquote>quote:<hr /> "Affairs are symptoms of relationships already in trouble." <hr /></blockquote>This is so very true. When I said this in a MC session WW looked totally confused. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But it is always true. In my case all the signs were there I just refused to deal with them.

C.

Bob,

Was this reaction a surprise to you? I think you need to work very hard on the Policy of Joint Agreement and Radical Honesty with your wife. I don't want to hear any excuse about how you can't---because your wife is fogged-bound and a liar.

The one-sided Policy of Joint Agreement states:

Never Gain at Your Spouse's Expense.

If you both practice that, you see how it becomes "mutually enthusiastic".

Now, you had an issue. The GF requested that you send her the phone records. What you should have done was to let your wife know that this happened, and discuss your proposed response (to send them). Your wife probably would have blown up---but you should try to keep her engaged in the 'brainstorming' process and come up with a solution that was agreeable to both of you. Let's assume that you couldn't. Then you tell her that while you respect her opinion and appreciate her feedback on this matter---you need to do this anyway.

You're being honest and demonstrating good negotiation techniques if you do it this way. The way you did it was behind her back. The result is the same (transfer of phone records), but the mechanism is much different, and the path you took cost you LB points.

Does it do "real" damage to your marriage? Probably not too much. But you need to start practicing the "correct MB way", if you want to rebuild this marriage.

Originally posted by K:

The one-sided Policy of Joint Agreement states:

Never Gain at Your Spouse's Expense.

If you both practice that, you see how it becomes "mutually enthusiastic".

Now, you had an issue. The GF requested that you send her the phone records. What you should have done was to let your wife know that this happened, and discuss your proposed response (to send them). Your wife probably would have blown up---but you should try to keep her engaged in the 'brainstorming' process and come up with a solution that was agreeable to both of you. Let's assume that you couldn't. Then you tell her that while you respect her opinion and appreciate her feedback on this matter---you need to do this anyway.

You're being honest and demonstrating good negotiation techniques if you do it this way. The way you did it was behind her back. The result is the same (transfer of phone records), but the mechanism is much different, and the path you took cost you LB points.

YES YES YES !!!!

This is way better advice than anything I have ever written to you ....

Do this K's way ....

****practice negotation techniques****

.... coz you're gonna need 'em.

Pep

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

****practice negotation techniques****

.... coz you're gonna need 'em.

<hr /></blockquote>...if you ever want to have a good marriage again.

-HD

K/Pep,

Can you have any sort of POJA with a fogbound WS still in contact with OP? K, I see your "don't try to tell me" part of your post. Maybe I need to go back and read up on the POJA and the one-sided part to better understand.

I just think that sending it was another level of exposure that is needed in this case, which probably late in coming anyway.

It seems to me that POJA is part of recovery and that Bob and WW aren't quite there yet. I agree with your points about POJA and negotiation, but don't know that it's possible for them yet. I'd be interested in your clarification here.

Bob, I don't believe her threats about "it's all over and there's no chance of saving our M now." She's said it before and she's lashing out at you. Keep on, keepin' on. You're doing fine.

[ September 01, 2004, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Nemo16 ]

She IS too fog bound still to have POJA during her withdrawal of OM.

He called her to let her know the proof arrived. Ha! That is not NC! GF should know that!

She IS too fog bound still to have POJA during her withdrawal of OM.

He called her to let her know the proof arrived. Ha! That is not NC!

I don't think Bob was sure HOW WW found out...He just assumed OM called her...It may have been though the GF or WW may have called OM???

IMO, all this COULD have and SHOULD have waited until AFTER the OM's son's funeral.

What is a few more days compared to a lifetime?

It would have been more Christ-like, less of an LB, more humane and more sensitive of Bob to have waited until after the funeral...which I thought in the beginning Bob had said he would do...Wait.

Regardless what many may think...OM and OW (our wondering spouses) have feelings and hearts; even though they are side-tracted and headed the wrong way. (Hopefully they get BACK on the right track.)

Sincerely, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

K said:

If you both practice that, you see how it becomes "mutually enthusiastic".

Key word both. I'm not advocating the "she's-not-doing-it-so-neither-am-I" approach....but I know how difficult it was to be mutually enthusiastic about anything with my wife while she continued contact with OM.

I think at this point even though the affair has been exposed to the GF Bob did the right thing. This "proof" had been offered to the GF prior by Bob with a "if you ever want it I have it" kinda statement. Well now she wants it and Bob gave it.

Maybe the timing is bad for the OM, oh well bad things always happen at bad times.

In my mind, POJA isn't really an option. I know it is the MB way but isn't that for when the affair is over and Bob's wife isn't trying to contact OM anymore? If you can't negotiat the end of the affair how is the "exposure" going to be negotiated.

Never gain at your spouse's expense

What is Bob gaining?

OM's GF could have waited until after the funeral but she didn't and that was her call. Can't fault Bob for what she did even if he gave her the info.

God Bless,

Doug

[ September 01, 2004, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: d_rose ]

Hasn't Barbara DeAngelis been married several times? I am thinking 6 but I'm not sure. I don't think she's someone to seek for advice. How can someone who has been married so many times and can't speak from the experience of a strong and committed marriage give anyone else advice? From reading that post, she obviously promotes the attitude to split and run verses MB who promotes working on the relationship. I think MB has the right idea...

dbl post
P.S. Bob, hope supper is waiting for you tonight when you get home!

[ September 01, 2004, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]

RAG:

Maybe Bob should just shoot his W? Oops, that's probably illegal where Bob lives.

Maybe Bob should just sue the OM? Oops, affairs probably aren't illegal where Bob lives.

What 2 do? Sure, he could make ultimatums and throw her out. Much of what you 2uoted contains "truths." But there is a certain level of vindictiveness there as well. Don't you agree?

K's got the right idea. And I do believe that POJA is possible even with a WS deep in the fog. It may just be about simple things for now, like who picks up the kids or makes dinner 2night. But seizing the oppor2nity 2 hone your POJA skills is a good idea.

When a blatant "full-blown" A is going on right under your nose, it's a lot harder for the BS 2 think clearly and do the POJA. But this isn't one of those cases. And if Bob tossed his W 2 the curb, they wouldn't have much time for practicing, would they?

Not clear-cut. Bob must decide.

-ol' 2long

Originally posted by Nemo16:
K/Pep,

Can you have any sort of POJA with a fogbound WS still in contact with OP?

Well.... I have been thinking about this for awhile, coz it came up earlier on a post by K ...

When my boundary became ---> "I will not live with you unless you go to AA and stay there.".... that was my boundary. My bottom line.
H proposed various other "solutions" to his drinking .... and we did have a negotiating session, but my boundary did not move.

My H had the choice, AA or he could choose his freedom and live outside my firm boundary. This was not done behind his back. My H was given a choice, a voice. He was not treated as a child , but as an adult. He chose his action knowing what his alternative choice was.

I think K is right, and I have been giving wrong advice on some of these areas. (thanks K, for the reminder)

Pep

[ September 01, 2004, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Bob,
My sturdy English friend, your W telling you not to send evidence to GF would seem to make you an accomplice in the affair!!

Looking at it that way, what choice did you have?

Hope your TV interviews go well. What channel might we see you on in SoCal?
k

<blockquote>quote:<hr />In my mind, POJA isn't really an option. I know it is the MB way but isn't that for when the affair is over and Bob's wife isn't trying to contact OM anymore? If you can't negotiat the end of the affair how is the "exposure" going to be negotiated.<hr /></blockquote>I think the idea is that Bob should have gone to her first and tried to negotiate the issue. Of course she probably wouldn't have "agreed" to it, but there's a larger picture here that needs to be addressed. The POJA all revolves around respectful negotiations. He needs to set the example by using it himself whenever he can.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Never gain at your spouse's expense

What is Bob gaining?<hr /></blockquote>Bob gained the satisfaction of exposure without letting his wife know he was doing that (ie - he did it behind her back). He let her find out through other means, not through himself, and then he was able to say, "gotcha!" This makes him guilty not only of not trying to use the POJA in his marriage, but also for not following the concept of "honesty."

If he can't follow it himself, how can he ever expect his wife to? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

-HD

Your W's anger is her GUILT pouring out. She wanted to keep it a secret, is ashamed to know that someone else read those words.

She is angry at you right now, but soon...hopefully...she will begin to be angry with the person who caused all this...herself.

How can she be angry with you??? (Hope this isn't too US business an allegory) but it's a bit like you getting mad at the credit bureau for an accurate credit rating that keeps you from getting a house...it's YOUR fault, they are simply the messenger.

This anger is natural, normal, and displaced. Hang on tight, no apologies, take what you can, get away when you need to. There will come a time that you can point out to her that this was the honest thing to do, and you did it to SAVE your M by destroying the A.

BT...we were down that road with the other thread. These are decisions *Bob* needs to be making for *Bob* and *Bob's* family. I'm still not sure why you don't get it. Giving him a "I still don't know why you did it" is *NOT* helping the matter anyway you look at it. *Bob* made his decision, based on the facts and possibilities. Do *you* have to sleep in *Bob's* bed that was made for him? Regardless if you agree or disagree, posts like that do *NOT* help.

[ September 01, 2004, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: LINY ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by HurtingDeeply:
 I think the idea is that Bob should have gone to her first and tried to negotiate the issue. Of course she probably wouldn't have "agreed" to it, but there's a larger picture here that needs to be addressed. The POJA all revolves around respectful negotiations. He needs to set the example by using it himself whenever he can.

<hr /></blockquote>But Bob said that she said, "I told you not to but you did." So it seems as though there was some level of communication about it. I'll have to read back to see if there is any context posted.

Lots of gray area here, but I do believe this POJA discussion is a good one.

I still have trouble with this. Last night, my W was reminded, by something on TV, of her best friend ratting on her at work, and never so much as apologizing for doing so. They haven't spoken in over a YEAR.

Worse, I still don't know how 2 deal with this, but I intend 2 ask Penny her thoughts. I want 2 be supportive of my W in her recovery, but I don't entirely disagree with what her friend did (though it certainly would have been better if she'd at least told her she was going 2 do it - it 2k a 2ple months for the "rumor" 2 get back 2 my W).

This is important 2 me (and relevant 2 Bob's actions), because like Bob's W, my W has threatened that "it'll be OVER if you contact RM again". I don't look forward 2 that kind of anger again, not just because I'm "chicken", but because when MY W gets that angry, she withdraws from EVERYBODY back in2 her shell for LONG, LONG periods of time.

I believe in communication. I'm cruddy at it, though, and want 2 improve. I think I can learn a lot from what Bob is doing now.

thanks, bob!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
-ol' 2long

HurtingDeeply,

Not trying to split hairs here and don't want to threadjack too much.......

I think the idea is that Bob should have gone to her first and tried to negotiate the issue. Of course she probably wouldn't have "agreed" to it, but there's a larger picture here that needs to be addressed. The POJA all revolves around respectful negotiations. He needs to set the example by using it himself whenever he can.

Maybe I can live with he could broached the subject with her first.....maybe.

Does the POJA approach hold true with the initial exposure? or the installation of spy-ware, using a voice activated recorder, looking at the spouses email or "obtaining" their cell phone records.

NO. Normally that advice isn't given here. Bob was stuck in a rough place. He did the best thing, in his mind, for his marriage, his wife and himself.

Bob gained the satisfaction of exposure without letting his wife know he was doing that (ie - he did it behind her back). He let her find out through other means, not through himself, and then he was able to say, "gotcha!" This makes him guilty not only of not trying to use the POJA in his marriage, but also for not following the concept of "honesty."

here is how I see it.....
He didn't let her find out....She found out because there was contact. More than likely it was the OM who told Bob's wife.
OM found out after his GF confronted him with the proof that she got from Bob. The proof that made deniability a little more difficult for him.
The GF decided that he needed to be confronted about the affair prior to the funeral. He gets pissed, calls Bob's wife and blames Bob for showing her the proof.
She in-turn gets pissed at Bob and says "it's over (marriage)."

Typical flow of events read here almost everyday if you ask me. I don't fault Bob for not POJA'ing because IMO it wasn't the time or place for it.

Bob,

You do what you can, when you can and as best as you can.

God Bless

Doug

Well Bob

just because someone has asked you to keep a lie doesn't mean you should. Not in something like this.
Anyway it is done and most experienced people here say thats good, time will tell.

But in the end, nothing you do or say Bob will 'make' her stay or go. Your WW will decide that one day regardless of what you have done in this regards.

Keep to your plan, make decisions as you see them as right, use the experienced posters for advice as you will, not much more we can do.

But Bob, its darn hard isn't it.

Actually, Bob's wife asked him what he was faxing when he was in the process or had just faxed the cell phone records. He answered honestly...only she did not believe him at the time.

I do like the idea of at least trying to practice POJA with the WS even if they aren't really ready for reconciliation...but he would of had to go ahead an fully expose anyway...because it was the right thing to do.

Over 90% of the people here told him to give GF info when she asked for it, EXPOSE EXPOSE EXPOSE, FOLLOW HARLEY'S ADVICE TO END FANTASY LAND! Now people are coming on to say...."BAD BOB" YOU SHOULD HAVE WAITED" "YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS OR THAT" "THE TIMING WASN'T RIGHT", "YOU DIDN'T HAVE FULL PARTICIPATION WITH YOUR WS"! BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH
Newbies on this forum are already 2nd guessing themselves when it comes to exposure because they are afraid to follow through and deal with an even angrier WS. Threads like this one will certainly make BS not take action to end the fantasy and instead may enable it!
It's done, get over it, move on, NEXT!
Bob - you did what should have been done from day 1! You can't reason with a WS in fogland so don't try. Continue on your path, nothing has been done that isn't WS textbook so relax if you can and see the bigger picture!

Hi folks:

For those of you who don't believe that you can POJA a wayward spouse (it has to wait until recovery)---I'll tell you that I'm not making this up. This method is directly from the horse's mouth (or the horse's son---Steve Harley). I counseled with Steve for nearly a year, so let me save you the session fee$ by explaining.

When in Plan A, you do need to confront an affair and negotiate an end to it. Exposure to outside parties is an interesting topic---Steve was not adament about exposure six years ago when I was working with him, but Penny Tupy is very much so now (and I'd love to see the data to support this). Regardless, part of the betrayed spouse's responsibility in Plan A is to establish a consistent track record of good marital behavior: including Complete Honesty, willingness to use the POJA, and the elimination of lovebusters. In regards to saving the marriage, there are virtually no time these principles don't come into play (including spyware) during Plan A.

The conversation I outlined above for Bob was very similar to dozens of situations that I had with my fog-bound wife. The procedure is relatively simple---you ask yourself how your spouse will feel if you do "X". If the answer is horrible or angry or anything negative---you need to figure out whether there's a different way to do "X", whether "X" needs to be done at all, or if "X" is absolutely necessary, how to mitigate the hurt involved.

I gave Bob the procedure for doing "X" in this case, using the one-sided POJA and honesty. The reaction that he would have gotten from his wife is probably nearly the same that he got doing it his way---so what's the difference??

The difference is that when the affair is truly over, and the fog has begun to lift---the wayward spouse has to make a decision. Do they come back to the marriage? Or do they go off in a different direction. Plan A often looks like the most futile thing on the planet to the betrayed spouse: I was convinced that when I was in Plan A, I was having no effect at all on my wife. Her behaviors and actions were just like Bob's wife.

But after being in Plan B and having the affair end---my wife told me how much those Plan A efforts meant to her, and how, without them, she couldn't have imagined coming back to the marriage.

Plan A is an effort to end the affair, in a caring and thoughtful way. It's also a set-up for Plan B---so that when the affair ends and the WS's brain clears---they have memories of the good that you were trying to do those last few months of the marriage.

POJA=
Bob will agree to end any and all contact as soon as W agrees and sticks to doing the same.
Problem solved for BOTH of them.

(I know, I know... with a WS its never that easy).
Sadly, Selfishness Knows NO Bounds (and accepts NO boundaries).

Sure she's angry. Let her vent and bluster ... then she'll calm down.
Much the same emotional process you had to go through when you first found out about the A.

WS's get upset and rage at EVERY step of exposer.
All NORMAL, Normal, normal. (But never easy or comfortable to live with).

We have communicated over exposure albeit unconventionally.

I found the 'proof', copied it and left a note saying " discovered, copied and replaced. Nothing taken - Bob"

WW must've called OM immediately as in an hour she said to me "OM begs you not to send to GF as his son has just died". Calm, but very very sad.

I replied " I haven't decided what I'm going to do with it yet. Are you sure about the boy ? So many falshoods have surrounded us these past weeks".

WW " yes would OM lie about THAT ?"

And so I did nothing with them, OM GF did not request them in our second call. I did nothing except respond to OM by saying that I would have no reason to ever make unsolicited conmtact to anyone in his family ever again if he sent an NC letter anmd kept it. No threat, ust a statement of fact.

I heard nothing expect from OM GF who told me in our next call he was reconcoling liek mad, had gone dark even before son and was terrifed of what could happen. Still denying a PA but admitting and EA.

SO them OM GF called me, asking for any evidence I have. She needed to get him to admit his affair to continue reconiliation. " I am tired of the lies, Bob. Aren't you?" She said.

So I sent her the stuff. I don;t know how WW found out, I guess it must be OM.So, not exactly POJA, but not a surprise. I also sent WW a note today that described exactly what happened, along with the number OM called from and the time so she can verify I am not lying.

Tonight WW texted me a msg "please bring wine and bread on your way home".

A good sign.

Arrived home to find WW still here but very cold.

Shmaley, just wanted to clarify. Sorry, but I actually disagree with the statement you quoted. That can be true, but it doesn't have to be. CV

d_rose,

I posted a reply, but it got lost in cyberland. However, K was posting at the same time and articulated it much better than I did. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The bottom line is you have to be consistent. You have to use the POJA all the time. You can’t “pick and choose” the times to use it, otherwise your spouse will just follow that same example. That’s usually what leads to a very unhealthy marriage, and a much more difficult recovery.

-HD

I haven't read all of the posts here since K first cited POJA as reason to alert WS that Bob was providing info to OM's GF. I did read Pep's "enthusiastic" endorsement of K's recommendation.

I don't think this is one size fits all. Case in point: I don't believe a BS should alert a WS that he/she (BS) is about to expose an affair to OP's spouse.

If we can agree on that, it seems that POJA may not be operative until MUCH later in the crisis. IMHO, Bob may be at that point, maybe not.

WAT

Dave,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I don't think this is one size fits all. Case in point: I don't believe a BS should alert a WS that he/she (BS) is about to expose an affair to OP's spouse.<hr /></blockquote>Again, I have this issue about using MB a la carte. Why on earth would you not let your WS know that the affair is going to be exposed? In the end, this isn't my opinion---this is what Steve Harley was recommending, and it's consistent with the material here on the website.

I am too sad and scared to engage in an academic discussion of POJA right now, that and I am a newbie. However I would appreciate someone explaining teh benefits either of us gain from this when my WW is in thi speriod of antagonistic fog.

mw " I am considering meeting OM GFs request for proof what do you think?"
WW " Arrrgh ! Kill ! Kill ! ARRRRGH "
me " well you have made your position very clear, we do not have enthusiastic agreement, however I'm going to do it anyway"
WW ( silently) " I will give OM enough notice to put some spoilers in place to reduce effectiveness of proof"

?? What use was that ?

My WW would not agree to do anything that involved either her or OMs discomfort or my apparrent gain right now so what use is POJA now? Just clumsty, unnatural words that adds an unusual "mechanical" threat to every discussion.

Please call me stupid, whatever you want but this looks like legalistic application of the MB tenets even though one party is unable to contribute to or benefit from it. I do not clkaim to understan dmuch of MB even though I am trying to learn fast.

Help me with this please.

I would be happy to have this explained.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Why on earth would you not let your WS know that the affair is going to be exposed? <hr /></blockquote>K, I think the reason I too don't believe in doing this in all cases, 100%, is because the WS can be soooooo unpredictable with their behavior. I truly feared that if my H found out I was exposing his A, he was going to attempt to kick me out of our home, move himself in, and try and take custody of our children.

Do I think he could have succeeded at this? No. Do I think my children would have been traumatized in the process, and immeasurable hurt done because of H's emotional/mental instability? Yes.

These are choices I made, based on what was going on in my own personal situation. My H's reactions frightened me. We couldn't even POJA in MC on the issue of exposure! To him, it was unacceptable for any reason. To me, it had to happen.

Is that MB alacart? Probably. Like a salad bar, take what you like and leave the rest. As soon as H and I were able to communicate, even before reconciliation (but when the A was over FINALLY), I did practice POJA. One-sided sometimes, but H was focused on NOT doing anything else to harm our children. He found his center.

I agree with what you are saying, K, I just also know that I tried that in my own sitch, and it didn't go over so good.

SS

**edited to add: My H didn't care if I exposed HIM. However, he was under great pressure from OW to have HER not exposed. And he was willing to go to great lengths, to include inadvertantly hurting his boys, to try and "control" me in that way. And his rage came in his frustration at not being able to "control" me. H even went so far as to tell me more than once that the A never happened, that he lied to me to get me to D him, and if I told anyone any different he would "destroy" me. So, I did what I needed to do, and I didn't talk to him about it. Now that he is defogged completely, he totally understands where I was coming from, and I understand where he was coming from. I think we can trust that process when the fog clears and communication is open again.

[ September 01, 2004, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]

Want to start off with my support to what BOB has done this far, placed in this position( Never thinking any of us would be here ) I think you did what had to be done and followed MB as best as possiable.

I agree this thread would confuse the crap out of NEWBIES , and being someone here awhile it was pretty out there to me as well .

The ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL ,,, Is the perfect way to sum it up .

MB has worked for some being done by the "BOOK" Others of us here have had to use what we could grab and learn as we went along ,, and that 2 has worked .

We are all indeviduals and not here to be BRAIN WASHED that we have to do it this way or thats why it will fail , or thats the ONLY way it would work ..

MY point is BOB is learning and doing , yes it is great to give him other suggestions and more MB materials to read and aply .

BUT ,, thats not saying it will not contridict something else we learn in other princepals ,, its spliting hairs .

TO a FOGGED WS BOUNDERIES are DEMANDS .
POJA to a WS means your manipulating me and if the BS does COMPRIMISE they may be told the WS manipulted them !

Every situation alittle different ,,, some say WS says this or that out of anger and won't follow through on there threat ....

BUT if you know your WS you know witch ones they will follow through with and won't .

SEE "one size does not fit all "

Some times it all is a roll of the dice ,,, or there would be no A's or D !!!!

This is not a perfect science for that reasons , it is a guide line . JMO .

With all that rambling ,,, BOB good luck and I would continue to expose and PLAN A till there is N/C .BE strong

<blockquote>quote:<hr />mw " I am considering meeting OM GFs request for proof what do you think?"
WW " Arrrgh ! Kill ! Kill ! ARRRRGH "
me " well you have made your position very clear, we do not have enthusiastic agreement, however I'm going to do it anyway"
WW ( silently) " I will give OM enough notice to put some spoilers in place to reduce effectiveness of proof"

?? What use was that ?<hr /></blockquote>You still expose. If you feel that this WW response of "spoiling" exposure is really an issue (it's not), you could always do so 30 seconds after the discussion.

The use of it is that you are exhibiting good marital behaviors that your wife will remember after her affair is over. You are helping to rebuild the marriage, even if you get " Arrrgh ! Kill ! Kill ! ARRRRGH " as a response. If you don't understand that---I can't help you.

SS: If there are safety issues involved, then separation is usually recommended as the first course, before any other issue.

I can't understand the idea of giving your WS and their OP a heads up on everything you plan to do. POJA has a key word in it....joint. It can't be practiced on a one way street. Maybe it can very late in the "crisis" period, but when the BS is fighting for their marriage to survive another day, they need every possible tool to work with. You cripple those tools when you inform the "other side" (as it usually happens to be) of your intended moves.

That was my case. After D day was past and contact started back again, I was contacted by OM's W for my take on the situation. Me, trying to be so "above board" filled my WW in on pretty much everything said and any future words that came to mind. Every single time my attempts at POA (minus the J) came back to bite me in the a**....hard. WW and OM were one step ahead of me and it was my own fault. It took numerous 2x4's from folks here to get me to wake up to the fact that there are times for POJA (when it's joint) and there are times that the gloves come off in defense of the marriage.

I think Bob is completely justified in what he did, but justified even more by the fact that the GF specifically asked for it.
It really would have seemed silly for Bob's conversation with her to go "So you want me to send you the proof? Right now?....Well, let me talk to my W about it and I'll get back with you."

Bob, stay the course you're on. I know for sure you've got a better grip on the MB ideas at this early time in your situation that I probably do today after 18 months.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
If you don't understand that---I can't help you.
<hr /></blockquote>I had a math teacher at school called Mr. Savage; He was too, a fearsome man!. He has a great reputation having been a senior don at the school for many years. However...some of us, even some bright kids...didn't really get on in his class. If someone didn't understand he would just repeat the text slower and louder until the kid backed off or the penny dropped. I'm afraid the penny didn't drop for me much with him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I was moved down into a 'second stream' Math class 2A. My parents were gutted as I was considered to be smart, but, well, can't argue with test results. I went into Mr. Stone's math class. I absolutely thrived: If a pupil didn't understand the textbook, Mr Stone would work out an analogy that would help each particular student understand using an example from his own life. With me, I was a music and Rugby crazy kid !I will never forget his integral calculus explanation using a rugby scrum ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I have used it with my daughter, but changed it to horse riding !

We laughed, we learned. I graduated an A (hons) Math student.

Years later I met Mr Stone in the pub after we had played squash. I shook his hand and thanked the now balding teacher.
I said " Sir, can you tell me something....why did you never get to teach PRIME math class when you are such a fantastic teacher ?"

He replied. " I Taught prime class for years until I was good enough to teach 2A, Bob".

K, This is real example, I am not being clever or trying to be hurtful.

I need your help, and understanding not your brickbats. PLEASE help me to understand this alien stuff, K. Do not shout at me, I feel bad enough. I may be slower at learning some of this stuff than others, but I am TRYING, K, God knows I am TRYING.It is not instinctive for me.

HELP me understand the hard stuff, PLEASE I need your help. It is clear you are Mr Stone, please don't teach me like Mr. Savage.

Thanks. {{{{{k}}}}}

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> SS: If there are safety issues involved, then separation is usually recommended as the first course, before any other issue. <hr /></blockquote>We already were separated. And "safety issues" is such a broad statement. Was I worried he would hit me? No. Was I worried that my children would be hurt by his REactions to my actions (ie, attempting to get me out of the house, get custody of our kids, etc. to "lash" back at me)? Yep.

So, I actually took the advice I got from a very respected poster here at MB and did not power struggle with H anymore. I did what I needed to do, lined my ducks in a row, got a Plan and stuck to it, and my process unfolded like so many here do. The A ended, H and I reconciled, he came home, and we are 5 months into recovery.

I love MB. I love the concepts, the support, the process. For many different reasons. Number one, it helped me grow up, find myself, my courage, and showed me I didn't "need" my H.

Bob, don't second-guess yourself. The OM's GF asked for something she needed to move on. She didn't create this mess her life is now. She just wants to know what she is up against, what she needs to consider if she can move past. That is what we all as BS's want to know.

WHEN your WW defogs, I believe that she will understand what you did. She might not AGREE, but she will understand. That is how it worked out for H and I. And we had MAJOR exposure anger episodes. Pressure from the OP is very powerful motivation for the WS to respond to. Once his thumb is not on her head anymore, so to speak, her behavior and emotions will shift.

Bob, try not to focus so much on this one incident. I know it is hard, with it just happening, and there is so much going on right now. Try and focus on your long-term goal. WHY you exposed. To end the A (which is ALWAYS ugly, BTW), reconcile with your WW, and recover your M. Everything you are doing is to that end. You are doing the best you can in the situation you are in.

Say some prayers, have some quiet-time with yourself, check in with yourself. You are doing very well. You are very brave. It is not easy facing the anger-beast. I know.

SS

double, sorry...slow today!

[ September 01, 2004, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: krusht ]

Bob,
I totally agree with SS. Don't spend so much energy on this one incident.

PLUS,...IT IS DID/DONE!

HOW it was done is a woulda coulda shoulda dialogue that will go on till infinity.

K says you shoulda consulted W, but then DO IT ANYWAY if she disagreed. (Which of course she did, protecting the OM with every once of her being.) Its over and done with.

Move on to consoling and rebuilding.
k

I have no heart to post my usual thousand times today. I have had a long, hard work and travel day and an ever harder emotional day.

Thank everyone for your support and advice.

I just walked my dog ( I pray on those walks!).

It occurred to me what happened to my WW today:

She was finally exposed as a liar, and adulteress, a family-breaker and a 'bit on the side' of the OM. There is no longer the faintest hope that OM GF thinks she is a nice person, who was just interpreted wrongly. OM GF found out that WW is a liar, and adultress who TRIED HER BEST through love, sex, word, gifts, deeds to steal away OM from his son and partner. Only OMs reticence to leave GF and desire to have only flattery and sex from WW stopped her.

I am sure that WW thinks OM GF hates her with all her heart today, and with justification.

My poor baby. Today is the day that her fantasy hit the oncoming freight train.

She has ONLY me in the world now, and she doesn't love or even LIKE me at the moment. She has lost OM, even as a lover, or EA, she has lost ANY CHANCE of OM GF allowing contact between OM & WW.

She has lost any chance of her heartfelt fantasy coming true.

Her kids have chided her for all the time she spends away from them in Karate. That stung I know.

My poor baby, I could cry for her. I have prayed that God will make me what I need to be for her now in this time of her greatest need ever.

I am all she has, yet she doesn't want me. I must be attentive so she doesn't fall too low too fast.

I love her. Thats all I have to say. I love her with all my broken heart and I will do all I can to keep her safe and happy.

Thanks

[ September 01, 2004, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]

I think you are exactly right, Bob. One night, I sat on the phone with my H for 90 minutes listening to him cry about losing OW's "love." It was soooo hard for me, BUT, I realized we began our relationship as friends, and that was were it had to begin again. So I listened to him cry about his love for another woman, because he is the best friend I have ever had. And he still is.

You are right. She does need you now more than ever. It seems she won't accept you, but sometimes these things change so quickly. Be her friend, as much as she will let you. Her life does look pretty poopy to her right now. Be her lighthouse, Bob.

SS

Bob,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I need your help, and understanding not your brickbats. PLEASE help me to understand this alien stuff, K. Do not shout at me, I feel bad enough. I may be slower at learning some of this stuff than others, but I am TRYING, K, God knows I am TRYING.It is not instinctive for me. <hr /></blockquote>I like the last sentence. It is not instinctive. In general, when dealing with an affair, your instincts are nearly 100% wrong. If something feels good to you in regards to an action---be very hesitant. It's probably the exact wrong thing to do.

What have I been telling you that you don't understand? It's very hard to focus on these boards---you've been getting a ton of advice from well-meaning posters who do not have the consistency of knowing MB. I'd tell you to do counseling with the Harley's, except I know that this is nearly impossible when overseas.

The MB concepts (Protection, Care, Time, Honesty) and tools (POJA, etc.) are to be used pretty much at any stage of an marriage---from fighting an affair to keeping a 50 year marriage happy. I'm not upset at you for what you've done---I'm just trying to illustrate how you should be behaving with regards to future encounters with your wife (about anything---whether it's exposure of the affair to the Karate club or whether to have a '90 or '91 Bordeaux for dinner).

Do you not see how the Policy of Joint Agreement works?

Do you not see how to apply it "one-sidedly"?

Do you not understand how to use Radical (Complete) honesty?

or, do you not understand how it could do good in your situation?

And I'm trying not to shout---although it is difficult, given the state of advice given on the board.

[ September 01, 2004, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: K ]

[quote]
Do you not see how the Policy of Joint Agreement works? Yes I do. SAA makes it clear

Do you not see how to apply it "one-sidedly"?absolutely not. Like maintaining good manners with a person in a coma. It upholds a pinciple but I don't see what good it does until the person comes out of the coma. Loving , caressing sex is also a great policy in successful marriages but it is frankly not appropriate at this stage of my marriage. Don't see how one sided POJA isn't an LB: "Why discuss it then do as you want anyway ? GRRR " as my WW said tonight over my exposure.

Do you not understand how to use Radical (Complete) honesty? sorta - total honesty can be brutal, need convincing

or, do you not understand how it could do good in your situation? see above

Thanks K.

Nevermind.......kinda irrelevant <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

[ September 01, 2004, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]

Bob:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Like maintaining good manners with a person in a coma. It upholds a pinciple but I don't see what good it does until the person comes out of the coma. <hr /></blockquote>Have you heard of people who are in a coma, but when they come out of it remember the people who lovingly sat by their bedside and talked with them, held their hands? And how that constant human interaction---although with no response---sustained them while they were comatose.

Same thing here. Your positive actions will have an effect on your wife, even if she is months away from acknowledging it. It was probably four or five months after I entered Plan B (and had returned to my wife) before my wife told me how profound my Plan A efforts had affected her, and how they were critical to her coming back to the marriage.

My Plan A efforts made all the difference in recovering our marriage. I didn't have a clue until AFTER Plan B and months into recovery. If you don't do a good job of exhibiting thoughful, caring behavior NOW, you may be risking your marriage down the line when your wife has to decide whether to make a go of reconciliation.

Does that make it clear(er)?

CV55
Probably just didn't read close enough. I can see where even if a relationship is going good an A is still possible. However, the majority of the time don't you think that some EN's have to be going unmet to facilitate the begining of an A? This was the case in my situation so maybe I am just running with blinders on? If you want just reply in my thread BP gets enough attention as it is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Yes thats clearer ! So while individual attempts at reasonable negotiation, conversation, 'listening', being attentive etc, elicit little positive response, once teh fog begins to lift WW REMEMBERS that BS had been treating her with a POLICY of caring, consideration, trying to empathise and support etc. even in the face of WWS unfriendly behaviour.

They are affected by the POLICY of humble love and negotiation rather than any individual act of it.

It is the POLICY of loving, considrate behaviour that we are trying to convey,not only get small victories for reasonableness against the fog's effects ? Is that right ?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />They are affected by the POLICY of humble love and negotiation rather than any individual act of it. It is the POLICY of loving, considrate behaviour that we are trying to convey,not only get small victories for reasonableness against the fog's effects ? Is that right ?<hr /></blockquote>Exactly. You don't ever expect a "good" response from a wayward spouse. Sometimes it does happen---and it's a very pleasant surprise. But most often it does not.

What you are doing is setting a consistant track record of good (new) marital behavior that you have committed to for the duration of the marriage---to demonstrate to your wayward spouse that you are serious about making the marriage a better place. The reason that phrase is in bold is because I heard it about a million and five times from Steve Harley himself. This is to set yourself up for:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />once the fog begins to lift WW REMEMBERS that BS had been treating her with a POLICY of caring, consideration, trying to empathise and support etc. even in the face of WWS unfriendly behaviour.<hr /></blockquote>Affairs almost always end. They don't always destroy marriages. Nothaving a plan for recovery often destroys more marriages. This is part of your "Plan for Recovery", even if you aren't there yet. You're setting the table...

$h!+, Bob, you're doing MUCH better in just the short time you've been here than I have over much of the past 2.5 years since d-day for me. Heck, you're doing better than I am now.

I mean that.

Remember, folks: The MB plans are EMPIRICALLY-DERIVED METHODS, they are NOT PRINCIPLES.

Human interactions aren't 2uantifiable. If they were, ol' 2long would be a saint or a Father Teresa or something by now ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

grayness. I agree with WAT and K and what they've posted here.

I do know that, if I get 2 a point where I need 2 expose some more, I'd better let my W know how and why I'm about 2 do it. The protracted anger is just not worth the alternative approach. And I guess I'm saying that, in my case, it would be an undermining of the "politeness during her coma" preceding. Not worth it.

Some of you may not have read the last posts of Bob on his other thread. If you have, you know that he pretty much kept his W aprised of what he was doing while he was doing it. That 2k guts, resolve, and LOVE.

-ol' 2long

K,

That coma example was a Mr. Stone gem. (He was the good teacher, right?)

Thanks for your patient detailed explaination.

I saw your member #!!... and will read your posts more carefully.

k

Don't mean to be stealing your K, I sign off this way because my first name starts with K and the OM referred to me as k in his emails to my W...I went with the ironic.

k

[ September 01, 2004, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: krusht ]

Hi K -

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by K:
Why on earth would you not let your WS know that the affair is going to be exposed?<hr /></blockquote>For the very practical reason that the exposure could be undermined - in those situations in which the WS can warn the exposure recipients, e.g., OP's spouse.

You know the drill. "Honey, some crazy husband of a lady at the office thinks I'm having an affair with her!! Isn't that just TOO much?!?!?! The nerve of some people..... If you get any strange phone calls, it could be about this. He's NUTS!!!"

The same could go for exposing to the WS's family. The WS could warn them about the "crazed BS" - "He's been acting REALLY strange lately. You did know one of his closest friends passed away recently, right? I think this has REALLY affected him!"

Now, that said, other exposure situations may not present this vulnerability.

I look at POJA like this - emphasis on the J - joint agreement. Both parties need to embrace the concept before it can be effective. This doesn't mean Radical Honesty doesn't have its place and day-to-day Golden Rule truthfulness is put on the shelf. But in an affair, the greater good of saving the marriage over rides showing all your cards, IMHO. Otherwise, snooping would be "illegal."

In Recovery, POJA and Radical Honesty are imperitive.

Using Bob as an example, recovery has not yet begun. Should Bob have told his WS that he was faxing info to GF? If he could have been assured telling her would not result in the info not getting to GF, then he certainly could have. Would this have been a POJA thing to do? Maybe. It may have done more good than harm. But NOT telling her certainly did NOT result in any "gain" for him - other than any gain in ending the affair that resulted. This would have been similar to "gain" achieved via snooping or getting info FROM GF.

WAT

WAT,

While I respect your opinion and understand your point, this is not what Steve Harley teaches, and for the reasons that I outlined.

Your complaint:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />For the very practical reason that the exposure could be undermined - in those situations in which the WS can warn the exposure recipients, e.g., OP's spouse.

You know the drill. "Honey, some crazy husband of a lady at the office thinks I'm having an affair with her!! Isn't that just TOO much?!?!?! The nerve of some people..... If you get any strange phone calls, it could be about this. He's NUTS!!!"<hr /></blockquote>My rebuttal. If you have solid proof (like phone records), there's not much way to talk yourself out of that situation. And in Bob's case, if he was concerned about this, he could do one of two things:

1. Fax them 30 seconds after discussing it with WW.

2. Let the GF know that he was practicing radical honesty and POJA with his wife, and tell her that before he sent these, he would discuss it with her---and to expect OM denials.

Really and truly---this would have exposed the affair just fine, regardless of whether Bob talked with his wife prior, or whether the wife conferred with the OM to scheme up some story.

All

I have to read SAA and MB principles again with a view to rebuilding requirements. I have focussed so far on helping to end the A. Well, I could be wrong but I think the A went west yesterday.

I have been plan A'ing OK, but that must now segue into a different behaviour plan with the of helping withdrawal and sustainable rebuilding our M.

If I understand K correctly, its not as important whether i used one-sided POJA in this single unique exposure case, but that I become predictably respectful, caring and inclusive in my behaviours towards WW.

That is, give her the OPPORTUNITY to agree or disagree in all proposals I make. Make POJA my default way of agreeing what action to take with WW.

Be radically honest with her ( thats a hard one, but I must - honesty can be brutal - I need to read up what this truly means too - Radical honesty can be hurtful and crass. " how do I look ?" " like an American Idol auditioner from San Francisco" . I mean, honesty and HONESTY right ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Keep up assumed EN fulfilment until she does the questionnaire herself. (i.e. my personal imporements must NOT stop now, they muct be new default beahaviours for me).
As I said I must study anew now that it seems we approach the W and recovery phase.

Even if the A is NOT dead, there is little else I can do now to affect it. Time to look to how I can be what I need to be forever for WW, not just what I need to be to end the A.

I am gonna need some UK MC too, but I do not believe there is ANY pro-marriage counselling in Britain let alonw MB principles ones. I may have to do timezone stuff with the MB folks or Penny Tupy.

Poor baby, she is hurting so much now and I can't hold her and tell her its going to be alright. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

The real work starts now I think. I hope I can have more heart for this part when I have less FEAR of the A continuing.

Thanks again all.

[ September 01, 2004, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]

K, this set of press was about an innovative deal cut with a coupla UAE countries. The TV was a soundbyte for Reuters, they'll push through CNBC europe and Bloomberg TV europe usually if it is used.

Press was trade press only (Computing, Computer Weekly, Business Week).

It was just a 15 second " how delighted we are, groundbreaking this and that, working closely blabla" to support comments from the buying governments and my big EMEA boss ( who did jack to close the deal, but wants TV anyway:) )

If i find out its def.gonna be used I'll ping U <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Not exactly ER is it ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Dear Bob,

I've been reading "The Five Love Languages" book (Gary Chapman) and it has been very revealing.
This whole A-thing might have provided you with some very important information how to reach your wife's heart.

Mr Chapman explains in his book that people can become very frustrated in their M and feel their partner doesn't love them, while this partner thinks "Hey.. but I've done so much to show and prove my love.." It's a bit like the EN stuff.

The five love languages are:
- Words of Affirmation
- Quality Time
- Receiving Gifts
- Acts of Service
- Physical Touch

And most people have 1 particular "language" that they like to be spoken to. From what you describe of your W's A I think (think) that hers might be Words of Affirmation with Quality Time as a close second. That's the language OM spoke to her, no matter if it was a calculated thing or not.

So no matter how many Acts of Service you do (chores), how many gifts you buy her, how many hugs you give here.. she'd still feel unloved.
Don't imagine her going to karate alone means she didn't want you to spend Quality Time with her. I have done many things on my own because I thought no-one wanted to join me, and my love language is also Quality Time.

Think about how things were when you two were in love and how they changed after.. what? You stopped spending Quality Time with her? You stopped telling her Words of Affirmation?

Food for thought perhaps?
You can check out the website www.fivelovelanguages.com
if you like.

Just a thought dear Bob.. If you speak her lingo, it will be easier to reach her. Your other acts will be noted of course, but the ones spoken in her language will really be heard.

BH Thanks I will read !

BUT WW has quite deliberately pushed me away from her Karate for a couple of years at least now, perhaps wince she met OM and began an EA.

She has also agressively defended her personal time going out with friends, even to family days ( she would rather go to a theme park with her sister and her family than we with me).

I think this shows that I am failing to meet some HUGE needs ofhers to such an extent that she cannot bear to spend quality time with me.

Also during fog/withdrawal whatever she is in, she won't talk to me nor let us touch. She began to just before this latest exposure, but that is gobe now.

My WW has never been emotionally articulate, so it will be hard for her to tell me where I have failed her even when/if she drops from the fog and wants to work on our M.Until then I will do what I can do, a policy of consideration and care in negotiation, honesty, Domestic support, time spent and anything else I can do to show her in her 'coma' that I care and am here for her.

It is not an MB compliant thing but I just think Karate offered WW somthing that NO single person/husband could offer and that she came to associate time away from me as being fun time. After all I mean domesticity, looking after kids, all teh things that I love but that remind my WW that she is half way thorugh her life.

Turning 40 this year made a profound change in WWs behaviour when I think of it.Weight loss, fitness, VERY young clothes (teen almost),lots of 'you are old before your time' talk to me and others, less and less true FAMLY time, less attention to domestic support for our family, more time away from not just ME but from the kids, minivan changed for a sport car without ANY family paraphernalia in it...

This A could just be the outworking of a huge female mid life crisis. I have much to consider.

Thanks again BH. I have almost too much food for thought right now !

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Quick update, my VP has just called me and offered me a sabbatical while I deal with this stuff. This means some time away on still acceptable pay.

She, my manager and the company as a whole have been exemplary in their support of my family at this strange time.

I can stop worrying about work for a while and concentrate on learning, and applying MB and caring for my poor WW and my kids.

Thank you GOD for these people and my company.

Bob,

That's incredibly generous of your VP to offer you that type of deal. I'm not sure that your wife is up for a full-court press right now, but one thing Harley recommends is immediately after the affair is over that the couple go on a long vacation (2 weeks +) without kids---so that no contact is "enforced" and that the WS have no one but you to rely on to meet her needs. The vacation doesn't end up being "fun" all the time, but it does help to get the WS through withdrawal faster.

What you need to weigh is your wife's willingness to have you around full time. Why, it sounds like one of those POJA situations.

One issue on honesty. Honesty can be brutal. You don't want to use brutal honesty. You want to use radical honesty---it's complete honesty, but phrased in a way that refrains from lovebusting. For example, you could tell your wife that you realize that she loves(ed) the OM, and those feeling hurt you. But that you want to show her that she can fall back in love with you, given time, and that you're willing to do the work.

Nowhere in that phrase does "rat-meat" or "hairy ape" get used... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by K:
If you have solid proof (like phone records), there's not much way to talk yourself out of that situation.<hr /></blockquote>Hi again K - I think we're in violent agreement.

I glad that you agree that absent "solid proof", like phone records, that telling a WS that you're (BS) about to tip off an unsuspecting BS of OP that an affair is underway is a huge mistake. Once done, the BS should be honest with the WS about doing this.

I DO have difficulty with the concept of "joint" anything when one party isn't a full participant.

You can't clap with one hand.

WAT

* K, I read that in SAA about the vacation. We actually DID do a vacation with the kids to our holiday home for a week after d-day, but as soon as we returned she got a secret cellphone and stayed in contact.

If/when the A dies and NC is assured I'll do just that with WW. Right now she'd rather go on vacation with Ted Bundy than me, but that may change in a week or two.

Regarding my managers offer, it is truly wonderful. My VP is a powerful (but tiny!) French lady and confided in me she has been a BS. She said " it will be up up up, and down down down, but if you love her, you can choke down the hurt and you can make it better than ever". This from a non MB BS.

" Take all the time you need. This company owes you that after your efforts. I owe you that. Be happy Bob and if you need anything, to talk even, call me".
This is a woman who runs a $28bn slice of IBM.

Awesome.

* WAT I would have agreed with you yesterday but POJA during fog isn't about getting agreement on each negotiation, it is about steadfastly applying a predictable reasonable, loving and inclusive policy to WW if I understand K correctly.

It is the POLICY of reasonableness , humilty and love that will be remembered, not every discussion about every thing.
I have tried this morning to use POJA so far regarding picking the kids up from school, making their lunch, making our lunch its all small stuff, but its BIG stuff as I am applying the same open, humble , caring inclusiveness in every decision. It is really starting to make sense after K's explaination. WW will know instinctively that I am not 'closed' to her, that I value her input and that I care about her opinion on every/most mutually affecting decisions despite the betrayal, hurt, spite etc.

WW won't recall that we discussed who should coillect which kid from school, but she will 'feel' that I involved her in every useful decision made between us today.

Now I am beginning to understand, it is clear that we always HAVE had a POJA between us until the last year when WW has done her own thing, and I have not complained.( both at fault). We both cared more for the others opinion than our own until my WW tuned forty. Then WW did not consult, and I did not confront. * sigh * And I thought it was loving to go along with her strongly held beliefs even when against my M or my family.

I think I can do this POJA/Radical honesty thing.

I cannot think of any other decisions that I will have to 'railroad' WW in now that the final exposure has taken place. So when/if WW stops hating me and being deliberately cold to me as a result of this exposure POJA mmight well become mutual.

We'll see.

Thanks everyone. Particularly Mr Stone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ September 02, 2004, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]

Bob, I am reminded that God can use ALL of the circumstances in our life to work good for us. I'll bet you never knew all that about your boss, but God did. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Not to disagree with any of the posters, but whether or not you should have informed your wife prior to sending the proof to the OM's GF, you DID it. It is DONE. Frankly, you already told your wife that you might give the GF more information if she wanted it. Your wife would NOT 'sanction' or agree to your sending that stuff anyway. You have to understand, as unreasonable as it sounds, that she doesn't want to hurt the OM. Yes, she has trouble seeing that she is hurting you, that the OM is hurting you, but she's in an emotional fog and can't see that yet. To put it another way, they "expect" you to play by "their rules" but they have no respect for yours? Sometimes we do the unpleasant, and deal with the "bumps" it might cause, because it's the RIGHT thing to do.

Please, if you have not done so yet, read the book Torn Asunder by Dave Carder. It will provide you with some much needed information, as well as things to do to foster recovery.

God bless and continue to strengthen you and show you His wisdom and love.

FH I got TA and scanned it. Will read properly now I have a sabbatical from work.

To be honest my best friend who is agnostic has said to me" you know Bob, I am not a 'believer' but so much unexplainable wonderful stuff has happened to you in this mess, with all these strangers praying for you too that it makes me wonder....."

How about if my mate is saved as part of this mess huh ? That'll be a load off my heart !

Thanks !

Bob,

I'm glad that you're getting these ideas and techniques down. And as FH says---you already did the phone records thing. I wasn't bringing it up as an opportunity to say "you screwed up", but rather as an opportunity to illustrate those principles as applied to a very difficult to POJA situation.

Dave,

Violent disagreement??? Perhaps margaritas at 10 paces??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It's OK to disagree. I'll just let you know that in MB terms, I'm right and you're wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey Bob, off topic here, but I noticed your comments regarding your boss...I am assuming from your comments that you work for IBM? My company (think large Anglo-Dutch) has contracted with IBM to offshore alot of our IT work to India. I am advising on US export control related issues....small world!

With regard to your WW, I think you are handling all of this brilliantly. Stay the course.

Regards,

Brit's Brat/BS-43
XH-45
DS-almost 3
Status: D-Day May '02, Divorce final May '04.

WW just told me how violently angry she is that I sent the proof to OM GF against her wishes. I said that I am sorry if she is hurt, but I had to do the right thing.

She then asked me where my loyalties lie.

I couldn't go on without a LB so I said "I can't have a discussion about loyalty now".

she also told me how hurt she was to hear my 'over the top' talk to my friend the other night. Dear God I wish I had a time machine, that was such an LB it is untrue.

She said "thats it, its all over"

I said " well, you will have to do what you think is right".

She said " I know what I want to do"

Oh dear its all going horribly wrong. * sigh *

I think if she had any chance of leaving me she would today, but she can't.

I must just continue to planA. very sad though. It seemed to be going well up to my stupid talk to my friend and the exposure.

* edited to keep my chn up *

Well if she was REALLY seriou sshe could easily leave. Just drop everything and drive off taking our money out of the joint account. But instead she is being mean to me, sleeping in my bed, living in my house, fetching my groceries, saying please and thank you when I make coffee and stuff.

Its all small but she is not ACTING at all like a woman who really wants to leave me. Shes talking a whole lot like one though.

I'm very sad, but I have been told to expect this. I am her most hated person right now, but I am also her ONLY person.

Poor girl. If only she KNEW she was behaving like teh MB template says she should. If only she knew that in tiem she can be happy again. Right now she thinks she will be angry at me for ever.

BTW I did well not to LB. She said " can you imagine how crass it was to send that information on the day before OMs sons funeral? Have you no soul ?"

I said " I sent them because OM GF asked for them and after prayer it seemed the right thing to do. I had no right to control what OM GF did with the information once she had asked. I am sorry if people are hurting, but there are many reasons for hurt".
WW not impressed by that answer.

Bearing in mind that TXT is my WWs preferred communication with OM, her friends and even me, she just stormed off to collect the kids from school (to deny me the pleasure of collecting DD from high school first day I guess:( so much for POJA this morning...) I just sent her 2 txts to follow on from our brienf painful talk :
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
I have done nothing without much prayer and soul searching. It is all hard. I hurt SO VERY much. I am sorry you are hurting. No more surprises from me,promise
<hr /></blockquote>And

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
...except my rant to (mate)the other night. That was just stupid and I am SO sorry. Out of order. Even Andy told me to SHUT UP till I was talking ense. He knew I was just venting. *sigh* <hr /></blockquote>I KNEW that was an LB but carried on with my stupid mouth. Dear oh dear. All those weeks of hard plan A took huge steps back that night, compounded by the exposure. I think I have to start again now. Ah well.....

[ September 02, 2004, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]

K:

"Nowhere in that phrase does "rat-meat" or "hairy ape" get used... "

Don't forget "phlegm bag"! It doesn't get used either! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

22bbllee ppoosstt!!

[ September 02, 2004, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]

Bob, her words are so predictable right now. And it is just as another poster said, it is actually comforting that she is still being a "normal" WS. AND, acting how a "normal" WS acts when their fantasy is being torn down around their ears.

If she asks about loyalty again, say it is to her and your M. That is the truth! That is what you are working so hard for.

Babble back to her, don't LB, don't take things she tells you that are hurtful to heart. I hope you saved lots of energy for this next fun stage! We are all here for you. Just keep posting.

SS

Bob,

What a WS says in a fogged state is not anything to get worried about. However, when she asks you questions---give a very consistent, pro-marriage response.

For example: Where do your loyalties lie?

Spoken answer: With my family and my marriage.

Answer in little puffy cloud above head: With my wife---will you please bring her back here??

Bob, don't beat yourself up. IF you made a mistake, you did. You are human and are going through one of the worst experiences of your life. What you did or didn't do is not going to make or break your M. As has already been said, your W is in fogland. Give yourself a break. CV

K thats excellent advice. Why didn';t I think of that half an hour ago ? SHOOT !

I think my LB was to humble me. I DID hurt WW needlessly by venting to our mutual friend. I needed to made to feel bad to get of my dam' wounded moral high horse.

Incidentally she asked for this months Mobile bill. i said I didn;t have it. Then I said, 'actually...I do. No more falsehood from me. Even though your use of the phones really hurts me, I will keep no more secrets from you. Lies cannot help us here. Here is the bill and the welcome paack for your 'secret' phone."

I am sick of the lies but by becoming transparent she may learn to trust me again. I do not appear to have been very trustworthy for a heil now with my (necessary) sneaking and my exposure etc.

Bob,

You're doing fine. So you're not perfect and you slipped up (some LB, some not-POJA).. and you realised it and you're willing to do it differently next time.. what more could a W want?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Maybe you could try the language of Words of Affirmation. And Admiration. She'll need that, she's getting to an all-time low - the rug is getting pulled from under her feet. Not just the A crumbling. She must probably feel the kids are also turning "against" her even if they're not. You're the good guy, she's the bad woman, that's how she thinks people will see her. To everyone except OM and he's bailing out, so she begins to realise she'll be all "alone" soon.

I remember my H complaining he "couldn't do anything right" for me in the months following the A. When I found out later Words of Affirmation were also very important to him, as was Admiration, I started slipping in compliments. I took care to make them realistic and not "over the top" so he could accept them and not think I was just saying things to make him feel better. He needed to know I really meant it.

If you have a hard time thinking of things to compliment your W now, because there's not much to be admired in her foggy state, you could refer to things in the past.
"You always did .... very well."
"You really look good."
"You have always been a good mother."
"I admire ..."
"I'm glad you're sitting here next to me."
Don't expect an answer. Insert these sentences in a natural, matter-of-fact way, then change the subject.

Go ahead Bob! I know you can do it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ September 02, 2004, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: brownhair ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
she's getting to an all-time low - the rug is getting pulled from under her feet. Not just the A crumbling. She must probably feel the kids are also turning "against" her even if they're not. You're the good guy, she's the bad woman, that's how she thinks people will see her. To everyone except OM and he's bailing out, so she begins to realise she'll be all "alone" soon.
<hr /></blockquote>BH This has hammered home to me these two days. Thats why I feel so bad for the LB.

WW has nothing right now, not even self respect. NOTHING. Only my love, and she doesn;t want or recognise that now.

Poor girl, my heart is moved for her. I will try your approach when she allows me to speak. Thansk BH.

Call her parents or other family members to shoot the breeze ... and casually toss in loving compliments about your wife to her extended family.

In other words... if she will not allow you to tell her good things about her to her face... do it BEHIND HER BACK! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Brag about her to your friends, her friends, and the grocer....

Some of this is bound to fall upon her ears.

Especially tell the kids about how great Mommy is!!!!!!

Sabotage her with compliments! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by K:
Violent disagreement???<hr /></blockquote>No, I said violent agreement!

Looking back on this example, yes, it may have been "more better" for Bob to tell his wife his intentions. Of course, this would have tendered the same result. However, it would have afforded Bob with demonstrating an example of POJA behavior that could help in establishing a consistent behavior going forward.

In my earlier post on this when I said that one size does not fit all, I was trying to characterize that some cases of needed BS action may not lend themselves to POJA behavior if the WS is still defending their actions, e.g., trying to keep the affair secret. As you successfully point out, this case of Bob's wouldn't fit that criteria.

Keep mentioning margaritas and JL will show up.

Bob- you're doing well. Don't sweat this and keep your chin up.

WAT

Pep, another interesting strategy.

however this one might be tough :

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Especially tell the kids about how great Mommy is!!!!!!
<hr /></blockquote>WWs been a near absent Mom for a year now owing to Karate and her EA with OM. Daddy's done all the weekends and evenings while Mommy did karate.
of thei rown volition they have started beating Mommy up about spending more time with them and as a family. I am sure God did this.

Its really hard as even the kids are beating her up at this weak time, but y'know its absolutely true. She's not been a neglectful Mom, the kids have been fed and cleaned, but she hasn't been an investing mother for the best part of a year now. Karate and herself has come first noticeably. I've doine all the investing in the kids lately.

Hard to tell the kids that such behaviour makes her a great Mom. It sort of invalidates their opinion that they deserve more, see what I mean ? Sure I can find lots of nice thing sto say about Momm, but I don;t want to invalidate their valid opinion. It may be useful to get WW to thnk about investing more time in the kids. Dunno. What U think ?

Interesting though, thanks.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by K:
Violent disagreement???<hr /></blockquote>No, I said violent agreement!

Looking back on this example, yes, it may have been "more better" for Bob to tell his wife his intentions. Of course, this would have tendered the same result. However, it would have afforded Bob with demonstrating an example of POJA behavior that could help in establishing a consistent behavior going forward.

In my earlier post on this when I said that one size does not fit all, I was trying to characterize that some cases of needed BS action may not lend themselves to POJA behavior if the WS is still defending their actions, e.g., trying to keep the affair secret. As you successfully point out, this case of Bob's wouldn't fit that criteria.

Keep mentioning margaritas and JL will show up.

Bob- you're doing well. Don't sweat this and keep your chin up.

WAT

Sure I can find lots of nice thing sto say about Momm, but I don;t want to invalidate their valid opinion.

Then say nice things... it does not invalidate their feelings if you express YOURS!!!

"Mum sure looks pretty today, doesn't she?"
"Mummy was so happy the day you were born and said you were her baby angel."
"Mum made this dinner, isn't it delicious?"
"Look at these photos of us when we went to Disney Paris. Isn't Mummy cute in her Mickey Mouse ears?"

If you have a chance, take it. The benifit will come later.

Be generous. Be creative.

Pep

PS .... you are going to be fine. This is not easy. Be good to yourelf. Learn from your mistakes, then move on, do not dwell on the past. OK?

We are having our own family crisis at the moment with very elderly frail parents who live 400 miles away from us and have immediate and future needs that we don't know how we can fill from a distance... and our lives are about to change radically, and we are POJA'ing our butts off. And our previously unseen conflicts and expectations are being revealed to us ... and it is so nice to be working as a team to brainstorm the problems' solutions .... it is worth all the practice you are getting now.

[ September 02, 2004, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Brit's Brat:
 Hey Bob, off topic here, but I noticed your comments regarding your boss...I am assuming from your comments that you work for IBM? My company (think large Anglo-Dutch) has contracted with IBM to offshore alot of our IT work to India. I am advising on US export control related issues....small world!

With regard to your WW, I think you are handling all of this brilliantly. Stay the course.

Regards,

Brit's Brat/BS-43
XH-45
DS-almost 3
Status: D-Day May '02, Divorce final May '04. <hr /></blockquote>Count us in Brit's Brat. Intel is off-shoring tons.

And hey Bob, as I type this, I'm about to type an email to an engineer at Big Blue (IBM). We're collaberating on a few Blade [Modular Server] products with you folks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jo

Bob,

I am gonna post from memory of what you wrote but I can see that you are doing quite well. You have a strong group of MBers posting to you so that coupled with your desire to implement what you are learning is really helping you survive.

Now to my point:

1. Your W's makes demands of her wants vs what she needs t/d for her family. Don't let her 'wants' govern what you need t/d.

2. As for sending the proof and when you did, don't ever apologize for that. She is too fogged up to appreciate the pain you went through t/d this for your family.

3. As for her being mad at the timing of when you told, that is babble. Pure and plain fog babble. Why? Because she would have been mad at any time. Also, she is the one who claimed the furneral was on a different day. Play those words back to her. If so, then by her own calender, you did the right thing.

4. Regards to your exposing to others..... if that is important to your healing and support do it and don't apologize for it. You could let her know that this type of exposure is healing for you and if she keeps finding ways to hurt you, well you will do what you need t/d as she seems to be doing. Throw it back in her face w/o giving her more ammo info. This is reverse babble. You seem t/b getting good at it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

5. As for telling others how great she is. I would qualify that and NOT make others a part of your pain. It would seem stupid to your children and the rest of the world if you hearld the WS as a great woman. Instead I would preface it by, 'my W used to exude great qualities but this 'new character' is highly questionable. I love my W but not sure what she is morphing into.' This will allow for a sort of compliment directed to the right person not this alien character currently inhabiting your home. It will also show others that she is not displaying acceptable behavior (another type of expsoure) and they c/b primed to provide external support by being your eyes and ears to changing events.

I see that type of approach removing some of the burden of wondering about the WS off your shoulders. Proper expsoure tends to eleveiate some of the BS burden and heap it back on the shoulders of the WS, where it belongs. After all, this is their creation. Let them deal with the creature.

NOTE: It always looks bad in public when a person is seen having an arguement and slapping themselves silly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

That is what the WS will start looking like to others. Her next tendancies to defend her current character change may bring distain from others and if the others know you also disapprove, then c/b apt to voice their opinion more.

Hope this helps.
L.

[ September 02, 2004, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]

Thanks Orchid. Its all gotten nasty again. Ah well, I was expecting it at least... * sigh *

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Its really hard as even the kids are beating her up at this weak time, but y'know its absolutely true. She's not been a neglectful Mom, the kids have been fed and cleaned, but she hasn't been an investing mother for the best part of a year now. Karate and herself has come first noticeably. I've doine all the investing in the kids lately.<hr /></blockquote>ahhhh....I see....she's really just an au pair, not a "Mom." It's a job with "required duties," but putting the kids needs ahead of hers???, kids are not stupid and they KNOW when someone is just going through the motions or when what someone does is motivated by sacrificial love.

Your "investing in the kids" is not only your duty as a father, but your privilege with the gifts that God has given you. And never have any doubt that the kids don't see that. You are laying foundational stones that will stay with them for the rest of their lives.

God bless.

Bob, one other thing. NONE of is "perfect" or did the "perfect" recovery. Recovery is alikened to a rollercoaster ride or "two steps forward and one step backward" for a REASON.

Mistakes will be made. Interpretations will be made regardless of what may have been "meant" by a comment. Fears dominate and most often come out as "anger," but the underlying cause is really fear.

The key thing to remember is no one is perfect. You do the best you can and when a mistake is made, you say you're sorry and ask for forgiveness. There was an old saying going around in my "youthful days" that was so far off the mark it's scary..."Love means never having to say you're sorry." The truth is that Love means always having to say you're sorry when you have done something to offend or injure someone else.

"To err is human, to forgive divine." Another of those very useful little catch phrases to remember.

As for your "vent" to your friend, please don't underestimate the VALUE of your wife hearing your pain and anger. Later on in recovery, that memory of what you went through will be a huge help in helping to never put you through that sort of thing again. But that's later, so for now, simply understand that you are NOT in recovery yet and an ANGEL would not be well received by someone caught up in sin, so don't fret too much if you are receiving what is "standard fare" from your fogbound wife right now.

God bless.