Hey Bob, off topic here, but I noticed your comments regarding your boss...I am assuming from your comments that you work for IBM? My company (think large Anglo-Dutch) has contracted with IBM to offshore alot of our IT work to India. I am advising on US export control related issues....small world!

With regard to your WW, I think you are handling all of this brilliantly. Stay the course.

Regards,

Brit's Brat/BS-43
XH-45
DS-almost 3
Status: D-Day May '02, Divorce final May '04.

WW just told me how violently angry she is that I sent the proof to OM GF against her wishes. I said that I am sorry if she is hurt, but I had to do the right thing.

She then asked me where my loyalties lie.

I couldn't go on without a LB so I said "I can't have a discussion about loyalty now".

she also told me how hurt she was to hear my 'over the top' talk to my friend the other night. Dear God I wish I had a time machine, that was such an LB it is untrue.

She said "thats it, its all over"

I said " well, you will have to do what you think is right".

She said " I know what I want to do"

Oh dear its all going horribly wrong. * sigh *

I think if she had any chance of leaving me she would today, but she can't.

I must just continue to planA. very sad though. It seemed to be going well up to my stupid talk to my friend and the exposure.

* edited to keep my chn up *

Well if she was REALLY seriou sshe could easily leave. Just drop everything and drive off taking our money out of the joint account. But instead she is being mean to me, sleeping in my bed, living in my house, fetching my groceries, saying please and thank you when I make coffee and stuff.

Its all small but she is not ACTING at all like a woman who really wants to leave me. Shes talking a whole lot like one though.

I'm very sad, but I have been told to expect this. I am her most hated person right now, but I am also her ONLY person.

Poor girl. If only she KNEW she was behaving like teh MB template says she should. If only she knew that in tiem she can be happy again. Right now she thinks she will be angry at me for ever.

BTW I did well not to LB. She said " can you imagine how crass it was to send that information on the day before OMs sons funeral? Have you no soul ?"

I said " I sent them because OM GF asked for them and after prayer it seemed the right thing to do. I had no right to control what OM GF did with the information once she had asked. I am sorry if people are hurting, but there are many reasons for hurt".
WW not impressed by that answer.

Bearing in mind that TXT is my WWs preferred communication with OM, her friends and even me, she just stormed off to collect the kids from school (to deny me the pleasure of collecting DD from high school first day I guess:( so much for POJA this morning...) I just sent her 2 txts to follow on from our brienf painful talk :
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I have done nothing without much prayer and soul searching. It is all hard. I hurt SO VERY much. I am sorry you are hurting. No more surprises from me,promise
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
...except my rant to (mate)the other night. That was just stupid and I am SO sorry. Out of order. Even Andy told me to SHUT UP till I was talking ense. He knew I was just venting. *sigh* </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I KNEW that was an LB but carried on with my stupid mouth. Dear oh dear. All those weeks of hard plan A took huge steps back that night, compounded by the exposure. I think I have to start again now. Ah well.....

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

K:

"Nowhere in that phrase does "rat-meat" or "hairy ape" get used... "

Don't forget "phlegm bag"! It doesn't get used either! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

22bbllee ppoosstt!!

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Bob, her words are so predictable right now. And it is just as another poster said, it is actually comforting that she is still being a "normal" WS. AND, acting how a "normal" WS acts when their fantasy is being torn down around their ears.

If she asks about loyalty again, say it is to her and your M. That is the truth! That is what you are working so hard for.

Babble back to her, don't LB, don't take things she tells you that are hurtful to heart. I hope you saved lots of energy for this next fun stage! We are all here for you. Just keep posting.

SS

Bob,

What a WS says in a fogged state is not anything to get worried about. However, when she asks you questions---give a very consistent, pro-marriage response.

For example: Where do your loyalties lie?

Spoken answer: With my family and my marriage.

Answer in little puffy cloud above head: With my wife---will you please bring her back here??

Bob, don't beat yourself up. IF you made a mistake, you did. You are human and are going through one of the worst experiences of your life. What you did or didn't do is not going to make or break your M. As has already been said, your W is in fogland. Give yourself a break. CV

K thats excellent advice. Why didn';t I think of that half an hour ago ? SHOOT !

I think my LB was to humble me. I DID hurt WW needlessly by venting to our mutual friend. I needed to made to feel bad to get of my dam' wounded moral high horse.

Incidentally she asked for this months Mobile bill. i said I didn;t have it. Then I said, 'actually...I do. No more falsehood from me. Even though your use of the phones really hurts me, I will keep no more secrets from you. Lies cannot help us here. Here is the bill and the welcome paack for your 'secret' phone."

I am sick of the lies but by becoming transparent she may learn to trust me again. I do not appear to have been very trustworthy for a heil now with my (necessary) sneaking and my exposure etc.

Bob,

You're doing fine. So you're not perfect and you slipped up (some LB, some not-POJA).. and you realised it and you're willing to do it differently next time.. what more could a W want?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Maybe you could try the language of Words of Affirmation. And Admiration. She'll need that, she's getting to an all-time low - the rug is getting pulled from under her feet. Not just the A crumbling. She must probably feel the kids are also turning "against" her even if they're not. You're the good guy, she's the bad woman, that's how she thinks people will see her. To everyone except OM and he's bailing out, so she begins to realise she'll be all "alone" soon.

I remember my H complaining he "couldn't do anything right" for me in the months following the A. When I found out later Words of Affirmation were also very important to him, as was Admiration, I started slipping in compliments. I took care to make them realistic and not "over the top" so he could accept them and not think I was just saying things to make him feel better. He needed to know I really meant it.

If you have a hard time thinking of things to compliment your W now, because there's not much to be admired in her foggy state, you could refer to things in the past.
"You always did .... very well."
"You really look good."
"You have always been a good mother."
"I admire ..."
"I'm glad you're sitting here next to me."
Don't expect an answer. Insert these sentences in a natural, matter-of-fact way, then change the subject.

Go ahead Bob! I know you can do it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: brownhair ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
she's getting to an all-time low - the rug is getting pulled from under her feet. Not just the A crumbling. She must probably feel the kids are also turning "against" her even if they're not. You're the good guy, she's the bad woman, that's how she thinks people will see her. To everyone except OM and he's bailing out, so she begins to realise she'll be all "alone" soon.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BH This has hammered home to me these two days. Thats why I feel so bad for the LB.

WW has nothing right now, not even self respect. NOTHING. Only my love, and she doesn;t want or recognise that now.

Poor girl, my heart is moved for her. I will try your approach when she allows me to speak. Thansk BH.

Call her parents or other family members to shoot the breeze ... and casually toss in loving compliments about your wife to her extended family.

In other words... if she will not allow you to tell her good things about her to her face... do it BEHIND HER BACK! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Brag about her to your friends, her friends, and the grocer....

Some of this is bound to fall upon her ears.

Especially tell the kids about how great Mommy is!!!!!!

Sabotage her with compliments! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong>Violent disagreement???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I said violent agreement!

Looking back on this example, yes, it may have been "more better" for Bob to tell his wife his intentions. Of course, this would have tendered the same result. However, it would have afforded Bob with demonstrating an example of POJA behavior that could help in establishing a consistent behavior going forward.

In my earlier post on this when I said that one size does not fit all, I was trying to characterize that some cases of needed BS action may not lend themselves to POJA behavior if the WS is still defending their actions, e.g., trying to keep the affair secret. As you successfully point out, this case of Bob's wouldn't fit that criteria.

Keep mentioning margaritas and JL will show up.

Bob- you're doing well. Don't sweat this and keep your chin up.

WAT

Pep, another interesting strategy.

however this one might be tough :

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Especially tell the kids about how great Mommy is!!!!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WWs been a near absent Mom for a year now owing to Karate and her EA with OM. Daddy's done all the weekends and evenings while Mommy did karate.
of thei rown volition they have started beating Mommy up about spending more time with them and as a family. I am sure God did this.

Its really hard as even the kids are beating her up at this weak time, but y'know its absolutely true. She's not been a neglectful Mom, the kids have been fed and cleaned, but she hasn't been an investing mother for the best part of a year now. Karate and herself has come first noticeably. I've doine all the investing in the kids lately.

Hard to tell the kids that such behaviour makes her a great Mom. It sort of invalidates their opinion that they deserve more, see what I mean ? Sure I can find lots of nice thing sto say about Momm, but I don;t want to invalidate their valid opinion. It may be useful to get WW to thnk about investing more time in the kids. Dunno. What U think ?

Interesting though, thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong>Violent disagreement???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I said violent agreement!

Looking back on this example, yes, it may have been "more better" for Bob to tell his wife his intentions. Of course, this would have tendered the same result. However, it would have afforded Bob with demonstrating an example of POJA behavior that could help in establishing a consistent behavior going forward.

In my earlier post on this when I said that one size does not fit all, I was trying to characterize that some cases of needed BS action may not lend themselves to POJA behavior if the WS is still defending their actions, e.g., trying to keep the affair secret. As you successfully point out, this case of Bob's wouldn't fit that criteria.

Keep mentioning margaritas and JL will show up.

Bob- you're doing well. Don't sweat this and keep your chin up.

WAT

Sure I can find lots of nice thing sto say about Momm, but I don;t want to invalidate their valid opinion.

Then say nice things... it does not invalidate their feelings if you express YOURS!!!

"Mum sure looks pretty today, doesn't she?"
"Mummy was so happy the day you were born and said you were her baby angel."
"Mum made this dinner, isn't it delicious?"
"Look at these photos of us when we went to Disney Paris. Isn't Mummy cute in her Mickey Mouse ears?"

If you have a chance, take it. The benifit will come later.

Be generous. Be creative.

Pep

PS .... you are going to be fine. This is not easy. Be good to yourelf. Learn from your mistakes, then move on, do not dwell on the past. OK?

We are having our own family crisis at the moment with very elderly frail parents who live 400 miles away from us and have immediate and future needs that we don't know how we can fill from a distance... and our lives are about to change radically, and we are POJA'ing our butts off. And our previously unseen conflicts and expectations are being revealed to us ... and it is so nice to be working as a team to brainstorm the problems' solutions .... it is worth all the practice you are getting now.

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Brit's Brat:
<strong> Hey Bob, off topic here, but I noticed your comments regarding your boss...I am assuming from your comments that you work for IBM? My company (think large Anglo-Dutch) has contracted with IBM to offshore alot of our IT work to India. I am advising on US export control related issues....small world!

With regard to your WW, I think you are handling all of this brilliantly. Stay the course.

Regards,

Brit's Brat/BS-43
XH-45
DS-almost 3
Status: D-Day May '02, Divorce final May '04. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Count us in Brit's Brat. Intel is off-shoring tons.

And hey Bob, as I type this, I'm about to type an email to an engineer at Big Blue (IBM). We're collaberating on a few Blade [Modular Server] products with you folks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jo

Bob,

I am gonna post from memory of what you wrote but I can see that you are doing quite well. You have a strong group of MBers posting to you so that coupled with your desire to implement what you are learning is really helping you survive.

Now to my point:

1. Your W's makes demands of her wants vs what she needs t/d for her family. Don't let her 'wants' govern what you need t/d.

2. As for sending the proof and when you did, don't ever apologize for that. She is too fogged up to appreciate the pain you went through t/d this for your family.

3. As for her being mad at the timing of when you told, that is babble. Pure and plain fog babble. Why? Because she would have been mad at any time. Also, she is the one who claimed the furneral was on a different day. Play those words back to her. If so, then by her own calender, you did the right thing.

4. Regards to your exposing to others..... if that is important to your healing and support do it and don't apologize for it. You could let her know that this type of exposure is healing for you and if she keeps finding ways to hurt you, well you will do what you need t/d as she seems to be doing. Throw it back in her face w/o giving her more ammo info. This is reverse babble. You seem t/b getting good at it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

5. As for telling others how great she is. I would qualify that and NOT make others a part of your pain. It would seem stupid to your children and the rest of the world if you hearld the WS as a great woman. Instead I would preface it by, 'my W used to exude great qualities but this 'new character' is highly questionable. I love my W but not sure what she is morphing into.' This will allow for a sort of compliment directed to the right person not this alien character currently inhabiting your home. It will also show others that she is not displaying acceptable behavior (another type of expsoure) and they c/b primed to provide external support by being your eyes and ears to changing events.

I see that type of approach removing some of the burden of wondering about the WS off your shoulders. Proper expsoure tends to eleveiate some of the BS burden and heap it back on the shoulders of the WS, where it belongs. After all, this is their creation. Let them deal with the creature.

NOTE: It always looks bad in public when a person is seen having an arguement and slapping themselves silly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

That is what the WS will start looking like to others. Her next tendancies to defend her current character change may bring distain from others and if the others know you also disapprove, then c/b apt to voice their opinion more.

Hope this helps.
L.

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Thanks Orchid. Its all gotten nasty again. Ah well, I was expecting it at least... * sigh *

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its really hard as even the kids are beating her up at this weak time, but y'know its absolutely true. She's not been a neglectful Mom, the kids have been fed and cleaned, but she hasn't been an investing mother for the best part of a year now. Karate and herself has come first noticeably. I've doine all the investing in the kids lately.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ahhhh....I see....she's really just an au pair, not a "Mom." It's a job with "required duties," but putting the kids needs ahead of hers???, kids are not stupid and they KNOW when someone is just going through the motions or when what someone does is motivated by sacrificial love.

Your "investing in the kids" is not only your duty as a father, but your privilege with the gifts that God has given you. And never have any doubt that the kids don't see that. You are laying foundational stones that will stay with them for the rest of their lives.

God bless.

Bob, one other thing. NONE of is "perfect" or did the "perfect" recovery. Recovery is alikened to a rollercoaster ride or "two steps forward and one step backward" for a REASON.

Mistakes will be made. Interpretations will be made regardless of what may have been "meant" by a comment. Fears dominate and most often come out as "anger," but the underlying cause is really fear.

The key thing to remember is no one is perfect. You do the best you can and when a mistake is made, you say you're sorry and ask for forgiveness. There was an old saying going around in my "youthful days" that was so far off the mark it's scary..."Love means never having to say you're sorry." The truth is that Love means always having to say you're sorry when you have done something to offend or injure someone else.

"To err is human, to forgive divine." Another of those very useful little catch phrases to remember.

As for your "vent" to your friend, please don't underestimate the VALUE of your wife hearing your pain and anger. Later on in recovery, that memory of what you went through will be a huge help in helping to never put you through that sort of thing again. But that's later, so for now, simply understand that you are NOT in recovery yet and an ANGEL would not be well received by someone caught up in sin, so don't fret too much if you are receiving what is "standard fare" from your fogbound wife right now.

God bless.