Nevermind.......kinda irrelevant <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

Bob:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like maintaining good manners with a person in a coma. It upholds a pinciple but I don't see what good it does until the person comes out of the coma. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you heard of people who are in a coma, but when they come out of it remember the people who lovingly sat by their bedside and talked with them, held their hands? And how that constant human interaction---although with no response---sustained them while they were comatose.

Same thing here. Your positive actions will have an effect on your wife, even if she is months away from acknowledging it. It was probably four or five months after I entered Plan B (and had returned to my wife) before my wife told me how profound my Plan A efforts had affected her, and how they were critical to her coming back to the marriage.

My Plan A efforts made all the difference in recovering our marriage. I didn't have a clue until AFTER Plan B and months into recovery. If you don't do a good job of exhibiting thoughful, caring behavior NOW, you may be risking your marriage down the line when your wife has to decide whether to make a go of reconciliation.

Does that make it clear(er)?

CV55
Probably just didn't read close enough. I can see where even if a relationship is going good an A is still possible. However, the majority of the time don't you think that some EN's have to be going unmet to facilitate the begining of an A? This was the case in my situation so maybe I am just running with blinders on? If you want just reply in my thread BP gets enough attention as it is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Yes thats clearer ! So while individual attempts at reasonable negotiation, conversation, 'listening', being attentive etc, elicit little positive response, once teh fog begins to lift WW REMEMBERS that BS had been treating her with a POLICY of caring, consideration, trying to empathise and support etc. even in the face of WWS unfriendly behaviour.

They are affected by the POLICY of humble love and negotiation rather than any individual act of it.

It is the POLICY of loving, considrate behaviour that we are trying to convey,not only get small victories for reasonableness against the fog's effects ? Is that right ?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They are affected by the POLICY of humble love and negotiation rather than any individual act of it. It is the POLICY of loving, considrate behaviour that we are trying to convey,not only get small victories for reasonableness against the fog's effects ? Is that right ?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. You don't ever expect a "good" response from a wayward spouse. Sometimes it does happen---and it's a very pleasant surprise. But most often it does not.

What you are doing is setting a consistant track record of good (new) marital behavior that you have committed to for the duration of the marriage---to demonstrate to your wayward spouse that you are serious about making the marriage a better place. The reason that phrase is in bold is because I heard it about a million and five times from Steve Harley himself. This is to set yourself up for:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">once the fog begins to lift WW REMEMBERS that BS had been treating her with a POLICY of caring, consideration, trying to empathise and support etc. even in the face of WWS unfriendly behaviour.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Affairs almost always end. They don't always destroy marriages. Nothaving a plan for recovery often destroys more marriages. This is part of your "Plan for Recovery", even if you aren't there yet. You're setting the table...

$h!+, Bob, you're doing MUCH better in just the short time you've been here than I have over much of the past 2.5 years since d-day for me. Heck, you're doing better than I am now.

I mean that.

Remember, folks: The MB plans are EMPIRICALLY-DERIVED METHODS, they are NOT PRINCIPLES.

Human interactions aren't 2uantifiable. If they were, ol' 2long would be a saint or a Father Teresa or something by now ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

grayness. I agree with WAT and K and what they've posted here.

I do know that, if I get 2 a point where I need 2 expose some more, I'd better let my W know how and why I'm about 2 do it. The protracted anger is just not worth the alternative approach. And I guess I'm saying that, in my case, it would be an undermining of the "politeness during her coma" preceding. Not worth it.

Some of you may not have read the last posts of Bob on his other thread. If you have, you know that he pretty much kept his W aprised of what he was doing while he was doing it. That 2k guts, resolve, and LOVE.

-ol' 2long

K,

That coma example was a Mr. Stone gem. (He was the good teacher, right?)

Thanks for your patient detailed explaination.

I saw your member #!!... and will read your posts more carefully.

k

Don't mean to be stealing your K, I sign off this way because my first name starts with K and the OM referred to me as k in his emails to my W...I went with the ironic.

k

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: krusht ]</small>

Hi K -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong>Why on earth would you not let your WS know that the affair is going to be exposed?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For the very practical reason that the exposure could be undermined - in those situations in which the WS can warn the exposure recipients, e.g., OP's spouse.

You know the drill. "Honey, some crazy husband of a lady at the office thinks I'm having an affair with her!! Isn't that just TOO much?!?!?! The nerve of some people..... If you get any strange phone calls, it could be about this. He's NUTS!!!"

The same could go for exposing to the WS's family. The WS could warn them about the "crazed BS" - "He's been acting REALLY strange lately. You did know one of his closest friends passed away recently, right? I think this has REALLY affected him!"

Now, that said, other exposure situations may not present this vulnerability.

I look at POJA like this - emphasis on the J - joint agreement. Both parties need to embrace the concept before it can be effective. This doesn't mean Radical Honesty doesn't have its place and day-to-day Golden Rule truthfulness is put on the shelf. But in an affair, the greater good of saving the marriage over rides showing all your cards, IMHO. Otherwise, snooping would be "illegal."

In Recovery, POJA and Radical Honesty are imperitive.

Using Bob as an example, recovery has not yet begun. Should Bob have told his WS that he was faxing info to GF? If he could have been assured telling her would not result in the info not getting to GF, then he certainly could have. Would this have been a POJA thing to do? Maybe. It may have done more good than harm. But NOT telling her certainly did NOT result in any "gain" for him - other than any gain in ending the affair that resulted. This would have been similar to "gain" achieved via snooping or getting info FROM GF.

WAT

WAT,

While I respect your opinion and understand your point, this is not what Steve Harley teaches, and for the reasons that I outlined.

Your complaint:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For the very practical reason that the exposure could be undermined - in those situations in which the WS can warn the exposure recipients, e.g., OP's spouse.

You know the drill. "Honey, some crazy husband of a lady at the office thinks I'm having an affair with her!! Isn't that just TOO much?!?!?! The nerve of some people..... If you get any strange phone calls, it could be about this. He's NUTS!!!"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My rebuttal. If you have solid proof (like phone records), there's not much way to talk yourself out of that situation. And in Bob's case, if he was concerned about this, he could do one of two things:

1. Fax them 30 seconds after discussing it with WW.

2. Let the GF know that he was practicing radical honesty and POJA with his wife, and tell her that before he sent these, he would discuss it with her---and to expect OM denials.

Really and truly---this would have exposed the affair just fine, regardless of whether Bob talked with his wife prior, or whether the wife conferred with the OM to scheme up some story.

All

I have to read SAA and MB principles again with a view to rebuilding requirements. I have focussed so far on helping to end the A. Well, I could be wrong but I think the A went west yesterday.


I have been plan A'ing OK, but that must now segue into a different behaviour plan with the of helping withdrawal and sustainable rebuilding our M.

If I understand K correctly, its not as important whether i used one-sided POJA in this single unique exposure case, but that I become predictably respectful, caring and inclusive in my behaviours towards WW.

That is, give her the OPPORTUNITY to agree or disagree in all proposals I make. Make POJA my default way of agreeing what action to take with WW.

Be radically honest with her ( thats a hard one, but I must - honesty can be brutal - I need to read up what this truly means too - Radical honesty can be hurtful and crass. " how do I look ?" " like an American Idol auditioner from San Francisco" . I mean, honesty and HONESTY right ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Keep up assumed EN fulfilment until she does the questionnaire herself. (i.e. my personal imporements must NOT stop now, they muct be new default beahaviours for me).
As I said I must study anew now that it seems we approach the W and recovery phase.

Even if the A is NOT dead, there is little else I can do now to affect it. Time to look to how I can be what I need to be forever for WW, not just what I need to be to end the A.

I am gonna need some UK MC too, but I do not believe there is ANY pro-marriage counselling in Britain let alonw MB principles ones. I may have to do timezone stuff with the MB folks or Penny Tupy.

Poor baby, she is hurting so much now and I can't hold her and tell her its going to be alright. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

The real work starts now I think. I hope I can have more heart for this part when I have less FEAR of the A continuing.

Thanks again all.

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

K, this set of press was about an innovative deal cut with a coupla UAE countries. The TV was a soundbyte for Reuters, they'll push through CNBC europe and Bloomberg TV europe usually if it is used.

Press was trade press only (Computing, Computer Weekly, Business Week).

It was just a 15 second " how delighted we are, groundbreaking this and that, working closely blabla" to support comments from the buying governments and my big EMEA boss ( who did jack to close the deal, but wants TV anyway:) )

If i find out its def.gonna be used I'll ping U <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Not exactly ER is it ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Dear Bob,

I've been reading "The Five Love Languages" book (Gary Chapman) and it has been very revealing.
This whole A-thing might have provided you with some very important information how to reach your wife's heart.

Mr Chapman explains in his book that people can become very frustrated in their M and feel their partner doesn't love them, while this partner thinks "Hey.. but I've done so much to show and prove my love.." It's a bit like the EN stuff.

The five love languages are:
- Words of Affirmation
- Quality Time
- Receiving Gifts
- Acts of Service
- Physical Touch

And most people have 1 particular "language" that they like to be spoken to. From what you describe of your W's A I think (think) that hers might be Words of Affirmation with Quality Time as a close second. That's the language OM spoke to her, no matter if it was a calculated thing or not.

So no matter how many Acts of Service you do (chores), how many gifts you buy her, how many hugs you give here.. she'd still feel unloved.
Don't imagine her going to karate alone means she didn't want you to spend Quality Time with her. I have done many things on my own because I thought no-one wanted to join me, and my love language is also Quality Time.

Think about how things were when you two were in love and how they changed after.. what? You stopped spending Quality Time with her? You stopped telling her Words of Affirmation?

Food for thought perhaps?
You can check out the website www.fivelovelanguages.com
if you like.

Just a thought dear Bob.. If you speak her lingo, it will be easier to reach her. Your other acts will be noted of course, but the ones spoken in her language will really be heard.

BH Thanks I will read !

BUT WW has quite deliberately pushed me away from her Karate for a couple of years at least now, perhaps wince she met OM and began an EA.

She has also agressively defended her personal time going out with friends, even to family days ( she would rather go to a theme park with her sister and her family than we with me).

I think this shows that I am failing to meet some HUGE needs ofhers to such an extent that she cannot bear to spend quality time with me.

Also during fog/withdrawal whatever she is in, she won't talk to me nor let us touch. She began to just before this latest exposure, but that is gobe now.

My WW has never been emotionally articulate, so it will be hard for her to tell me where I have failed her even when/if she drops from the fog and wants to work on our M.Until then I will do what I can do, a policy of consideration and care in negotiation, honesty, Domestic support, time spent and anything else I can do to show her in her 'coma' that I care and am here for her.

It is not an MB compliant thing but I just think Karate offered WW somthing that NO single person/husband could offer and that she came to associate time away from me as being fun time. After all I mean domesticity, looking after kids, all teh things that I love but that remind my WW that she is half way thorugh her life.

Turning 40 this year made a profound change in WWs behaviour when I think of it.Weight loss, fitness, VERY young clothes (teen almost),lots of 'you are old before your time' talk to me and others, less and less true FAMLY time, less attention to domestic support for our family, more time away from not just ME but from the kids, minivan changed for a sport car without ANY family paraphernalia in it...

This A could just be the outworking of a huge female mid life crisis. I have much to consider.

Thanks again BH. I have almost too much food for thought right now !

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Quick update, my VP has just called me and offered me a sabbatical while I deal with this stuff. This means some time away on still acceptable pay.

She, my manager and the company as a whole have been exemplary in their support of my family at this strange time.

I can stop worrying about work for a while and concentrate on learning, and applying MB and caring for my poor WW and my kids.

Thank you GOD for these people and my company.

Bob,

That's incredibly generous of your VP to offer you that type of deal. I'm not sure that your wife is up for a full-court press right now, but one thing Harley recommends is immediately after the affair is over that the couple go on a long vacation (2 weeks +) without kids---so that no contact is "enforced" and that the WS have no one but you to rely on to meet her needs. The vacation doesn't end up being "fun" all the time, but it does help to get the WS through withdrawal faster.

What you need to weigh is your wife's willingness to have you around full time. Why, it sounds like one of those POJA situations.

One issue on honesty. Honesty can be brutal. You don't want to use brutal honesty. You want to use radical honesty---it's complete honesty, but phrased in a way that refrains from lovebusting. For example, you could tell your wife that you realize that she loves(ed) the OM, and those feeling hurt you. But that you want to show her that she can fall back in love with you, given time, and that you're willing to do the work.

Nowhere in that phrase does "rat-meat" or "hairy ape" get used... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong>If you have solid proof (like phone records), there's not much way to talk yourself out of that situation.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi again K - I think we're in violent agreement.

I glad that you agree that absent "solid proof", like phone records, that telling a WS that you're (BS) about to tip off an unsuspecting BS of OP that an affair is underway is a huge mistake. Once done, the BS should be honest with the WS about doing this.

I DO have difficulty with the concept of "joint" anything when one party isn't a full participant.

You can't clap with one hand.

WAT

* K, I read that in SAA about the vacation. We actually DID do a vacation with the kids to our holiday home for a week after d-day, but as soon as we returned she got a secret cellphone and stayed in contact.

If/when the A dies and NC is assured I'll do just that with WW. Right now she'd rather go on vacation with Ted Bundy than me, but that may change in a week or two.

Regarding my managers offer, it is truly wonderful. My VP is a powerful (but tiny!) French lady and confided in me she has been a BS. She said " it will be up up up, and down down down, but if you love her, you can choke down the hurt and you can make it better than ever". This from a non MB BS.

" Take all the time you need. This company owes you that after your efforts. I owe you that. Be happy Bob and if you need anything, to talk even, call me".
This is a woman who runs a $28bn slice of IBM.

Awesome.

* WAT I would have agreed with you yesterday but POJA during fog isn't about getting agreement on each negotiation, it is about steadfastly applying a predictable reasonable, loving and inclusive policy to WW if I understand K correctly.

It is the POLICY of reasonableness , humilty and love that will be remembered, not every discussion about every thing.
I have tried this morning to use POJA so far regarding picking the kids up from school, making their lunch, making our lunch its all small stuff, but its BIG stuff as I am applying the same open, humble , caring inclusiveness in every decision. It is really starting to make sense after K's explaination. WW will know instinctively that I am not 'closed' to her, that I value her input and that I care about her opinion on every/most mutually affecting decisions despite the betrayal, hurt, spite etc.

WW won't recall that we discussed who should coillect which kid from school, but she will 'feel' that I involved her in every useful decision made between us today.

Now I am beginning to understand, it is clear that we always HAVE had a POJA between us until the last year when WW has done her own thing, and I have not complained.( both at fault). We both cared more for the others opinion than our own until my WW tuned forty. Then WW did not consult, and I did not confront. * sigh * And I thought it was loving to go along with her strongly held beliefs even when against my M or my family.

I think I can do this POJA/Radical honesty thing.

I cannot think of any other decisions that I will have to 'railroad' WW in now that the final exposure has taken place. So when/if WW stops hating me and being deliberately cold to me as a result of this exposure POJA mmight well become mutual.

We'll see.

Thanks everyone. Particularly Mr Stone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Bob, I am reminded that God can use ALL of the circumstances in our life to work good for us. I'll bet you never knew all that about your boss, but God did. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Not to disagree with any of the posters, but whether or not you should have informed your wife prior to sending the proof to the OM's GF, you DID it. It is DONE. Frankly, you already told your wife that you might give the GF more information if she wanted it. Your wife would NOT 'sanction' or agree to your sending that stuff anyway. You have to understand, as unreasonable as it sounds, that she doesn't want to hurt the OM. Yes, she has trouble seeing that she is hurting you, that the OM is hurting you, but she's in an emotional fog and can't see that yet. To put it another way, they "expect" you to play by "their rules" but they have no respect for yours? Sometimes we do the unpleasant, and deal with the "bumps" it might cause, because it's the RIGHT thing to do.

Please, if you have not done so yet, read the book Torn Asunder by Dave Carder. It will provide you with some much needed information, as well as things to do to foster recovery.

God bless and continue to strengthen you and show you His wisdom and love.

FH I got TA and scanned it. Will read properly now I have a sabbatical from work.

To be honest my best friend who is agnostic has said to me" you know Bob, I am not a 'believer' but so much unexplainable wonderful stuff has happened to you in this mess, with all these strangers praying for you too that it makes me wonder....."

How about if my mate is saved as part of this mess huh ? That'll be a load off my heart !

Thanks !

Bob,

I'm glad that you're getting these ideas and techniques down. And as FH says---you already did the phone records thing. I wasn't bringing it up as an opportunity to say "you screwed up", but rather as an opportunity to illustrate those principles as applied to a very difficult to POJA situation.

Dave,

Violent disagreement??? Perhaps margaritas at 10 paces??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It's OK to disagree. I'll just let you know that in MB terms, I'm right and you're wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />