Toosoon, here is the answers on the questions you posted to me on Dan’s thread. I send it separately because I don’t want to highjack Dan’s thread with this long post. I gave some background and explanations with my answers to you so that you can get the full picture. This post is very long, so I hope you won’t mind.

Did you feel you were in love with the OM during your EA?
Yes, I did, but it took almost 3 years to reach this stage. The friendship started out as platonic but as the friendship developed and we became closer friends and greater confidents, my emotional attachment & attraction towards OM became stronger. It developed into an EA very slowly and with pass of time. By the time I realized I’m ‘in love’ with him, I was too deep involved with the feelings & emotions already and it was difficult to get out of it. I was raised with the perception (and by my father’s example) that there is nothing wrong with close opposite sex friendships as long as there is no physical involvement, declarations of love towards each other etc. I first learn about EA’s and that I was involved in one after I’ve discovered this website on MB and after my own inappropriate involvement corrected all the wrong perceptions I had about opposite sex friendships. (On this thread you can read more about the wrong perceptions I had and what I’ve learned from my experience.) Although my H knew about the friendship and although the EA didn’t happen intentionally, there was some things I kept secret from my H: 1.) I didn’t told my H about the subtle ‘jokes’ and flirting on e-mail; 2) I didn’t told my H about OM’s continuous request of photos and that I e-mail holiday photo’s of me to him and 3) I didn’t told my H about the strong attachment I developed towards OM during the friendship. Yes, I learned to care for OM very much, but today I realize I was not really in love with OM, but with the ‘fantasy’ of him. I’ve also learned to never get 'too' joking around' with someone of opposite sex. I realise now I was unintentially flirting back by 'taking the bait' and giving off certain vibes for OM to pick up on though I didn't realise it at the time… I’ve started to respond to OM’s ‘jokes’ on e-mail... The computer screen made me feel ‘safe’ since there was not direct contact with OM in person (where I could see him or hear his voice). So, I have learned flirting and joking on e-mail and through Internet can just be as damaging and dangerous...

How long did it take to break the A and how long did it take you to reconnect with your husband?
As I’ve told Dan yesterday, the friendship continued for 6 months after D-day. OM ended the friendship himself. After D-day, I kept my distance from OM and tried to kept the friendship on appropriate level but OM couldn’t accept my conditions and boundaries and broke off the friendship very abruptly. I honestly don’t know if I would ever have the strength to end the friendship myself and today I’m very thankful that things happened this way. After the friendship was ended by him, I didn’t hear from OM for 7 months and during this time I started withdrawal, discovered MB and decided that if OM would ever try to contact me again and restart the friendship, I would not allow it and have NC with him. During this time I tried to reconnect with my H but I struggled because of intense withdrawal and depression. I went back to my counselor and was put on A/D’s again. This helped a lot and after this I could start ‘real recovery’ and start to fully reconnect with my H. OM indeed tried to contact me again, but I ignored him. After his second attempt, I send him a NC-letter. In total it took approximately 18 months to get through withdrawal and to ‘get over’ OM completely.

How is your relationship today? Is your marriage back to normal, better or worse?
Is it different than before the affair?
Toosoon, my M is back to normal and our relationship is much better than it was before the A. We both have learned and grown from this… I feel very grateful towards God for so many things in my life, but I’m most grateful that God has used this painful experience to make me a much stronger person and have used it to teach me very valuable lessons in life. God can certainly take any painful and negative experience and let something good came out of it if we are obedient to Him and have faith and trust in Him. Me and my H’s communication is much better than it was before the A and we have totally Honesty and Openness about everything now in our M. Me & hubby are very committed and loyal to each other, we are each other’s best friends, we enjoy each other’s company and we enjoy spending time together etc. However, there is some things I struggle with in my M and things about my H and us that concerns me… It’s about the romantic love in our M I feel is lacking… I don’t want to go in depth about it here, so you can read more about it on this thread.

Was an EN lacking prior to the affair and is it better filled today?
I’ve always had and still have a very deep need for deep communication and total openness & honesty about feelings, thoughts, emotions, experiences etc. I want to be heard and understood. My whole life these things have been a very deep need for me. Because of our different temperaments, my H doesn’t have the same needs for these EN’s than me, so yes, these EN’s were lacking in some ways prior to the A. It is better filled today, but not as much as I would like it to be. However, I have learned to get this needs filled on other ways than having a close friendship with someone of the opposite sex. I’ve developed close same sex friendships and I read many psychological, spiritual and religious books.

Or was it a simple act of selfishness on your part?
I were selfish in some ways (I think all WS’s are in certain ways) and I take full responsibility and the blame for my own wrong choices. However, although the EA happened as a result of some unfulfilled EN’s, it also happened because of my personal weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Many of this has to do with my childhood. I was physically & sexually abused as a child; me & my father never really shared a close bond and emotionally my father was not available. In some ways I viewed OM as a ‘father figure’, he gave me attention and unconsciously helped to fill those needs. I think my EA had more to do with this (self-esteem issues, need for approval etc. because of childhood issues) than with issues in my M.

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

The previous post was incomplete, here is the rest of the post:

Did you reach the hugging and kissing stage in the EA?
No, luckily not, we never touched each other, but I believe we were very, very close to this. On a certain stage I was very depressed about issues with my parents and one day I discussed it with OM alone in his office. Afterwards he send me an e-mail and told me he felt very concerned and worried about me and so much wanted to hug me but was afraid to do it. A view other times on e-mail he also asked me to give him a hug the next time I visit him… The temptation was very strong but I always resisted out of fear that things would progress further since I also became physically attracted to OM. Although 'moral code' and conscience plays a big role in preventing me from further invovlement, I think much of it has to do with my experiences as a child - I think my deep-settled fear of “sexually being abused again” also prevented me from letting the EA developed into something more. I remember while I was in the midst of my involvement with OM, how this anxious and uncomfortable feelings at the same time protected me and held me back from further involvement into an intense EA and/or PA with OM. My counselor once said I must view this as a ‘blessing and protection from God’ to protect me against my own weaknesses and against any other man who might have bad intentions. I still feel anxious and uncomfortable when I accidentally bump into OM at work, but I think it’s better this way.

Were you contemplating having sex or getting close to having sex?
No, not at all. As I’ve explained in my previous answer, the EA stopped before it get to hugging, kissing, declarations of love etc. However, I became physically attracted to OM and I think there was an unspoken sexual chemistry between as. After the friendship developed to EA and while I was in intense withdrawal, I became very obsessed with OM and had sexual thoughts and fantasies of him. I never spoke to OM about these things or considered to act on those wrong thoughts and desires. After I receive medication for Obsessive-Compulsive-Disorder with asociated depression and anxiety, things became better and I could start to control my the obsessive & excessive thoughts and feelings.

Were you considering leaving your husband?
Never! Not on any stage… As I’ve said to Dan before, I never stopped loving my H or doubt my feelings for him, although I felt very confused while I was in the fog and early withdrawal.

Toosoon, I don’t know if my post will be of any help or insight to you regarding your own M, but thanks for the interest and the opportunity to share my story! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet, you have traveled a very long road. How do you feel now when you "accidentally" meet the OM? And how does your H feel about the fact that you still work in the same company as OM?

You have written some target items that are very helpful. This sort of problem, including the usage of the email for "harmless" communications, which turns into flirting and romanticizing is big one for our modern day. The minimal efforts it can take to heat up a casual working relationship is an important check point. Thanks for your POV Suzet. I think it is helpful to many folks.

c
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Suzet:

Thanks for the thorough post in response my questions. I have been busy today and tonight and I want to reread them over before I respond and ask more questions. I really like your approach and honesty. It makes a difference.

Talk to you soon.

TooSoon

<small>[ September 03, 2004, 04:58 AM: Message edited by: TooSoonToBeComfortable ]</small>

How do you feel now when you "accidentally" meet the OM?
Cardinal, when this happen, I still feel somewhat uncomfortable and anxious, but not nearly as much as it used to be. Before I’ve send OM the 2nd NC and ‘closure’ letter a few months back, I always felt extremely anxious, upset and uncomfortable when I saw or bumped into him. I think it was close to anxiety attacks and when it happened I didn’t had any control over it. Because of the severe anxiety, I couldn't hide my feelings & reactions and I was always afraid the people around me at work (especially OM) would notice. But as I’ve said, this has completely changed and it is such a relief! At this stage, the anxiety is very mild and I can totally control and live with it. As I’ve said, I think some anxiety (when I see or bump into OM) is good and healthy.

Because of accidental contact, it took me a long time to get rid of most of the residual feelings I had towards OM. I used to miss his friendship and think about him a lot every time there was accidental contact, but this is something of the past now. It doesn’t have this effect on me anymore and I can honestly say I don’t miss OM and his friendship anymore when there is accidental contact. However, I’m still very, very cautious and careful when I meet him and I think I always will, because I know there is always a chance that feelings might get reiginated… For this reason I just greet him briefly when it’s inappropriate & impossible to totally ignore him. And if I’m compelled to talk to him due to circumstances at work, I keep the conversation professional, civil & to the point. Luckily this doesn’t happen very often and I’m thankful for that.

And how does your H feel about the fact that you still work in the same company as OM?
Due to financial & economic circumstances in this country and in our personal life’s, my H understands this and doesn’t have a problem with it. If there is accidental contact, I always inform my H about it and tell him how I handled the situation. There is complete Honesty and Openness between us about this and my H knows he can trust me now. I think this is the main reason why my H feel okay about the fact that I still work in the same company. My H used to work at the same company than me, but lost his job because of unfair dismissal, victimization, discrimination etc. (long story). The court case is still in progress and my H hasn’t found another job yet. In the meantime he has started his own computer business from home.

<small>[ September 03, 2004, 05:49 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Thank-you for your responses! I think that you are doing the very best that anyone could. And I applaud you for your H&O with your own H regarding this. If others are in this situation, there is hope. All kinds of problems can be avoided if we are making the M the most important thing in our life. I think that the more we recognize what is a potential problem when we see it, the much less of a chance there is to make a big mistake!

When we think that we are doing well, and do nothing to protect our M's, we can faulter. It is good to know where to put those very important boundaries.

Thanks Suzet.
Have a happy day! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
c

Cardinal, thanks for you response and thanks for the positive words – I appreciate it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

The most important boundary I’ve set for myself is to not have any opposite sex friendships except if the person is a friend of both me and my H & our M and where both me and my H can spend time with the person. Most of our friends are married couples and mutual friends, and I view this type of friendships as the healthiest and strongest, but only if both couples share the same values & morals about M and life in general.

You must enjoy the rest of your day and the weekend too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (In my country it's already 9:30 in the evening.)

Blessings,
Suzet

Suzet:

Thanks for your information about your previous developing affair with your co-worker.

Did you feel you were in love with the OM during your EA?

My wife also fell in love with the OM at her job. All the signs were there for months but I didn’t want to know the truth. I went out of town and my wife would come home late and she would say she went to the movies and shopping with the girls. I knew it wasn’t true since she didn’t like going to the movies or shopping. I avoided confronting her but I finally reached a point where I checked her cell phone bills. Had I checked them earlier, I might have saved the relationship from developing as it did. The night she admitted having an affair, she said, “Yes I am having an affair and the problem you have is, I am in love with another man”. Those words changed my life, as I knew it before.

How long did it take to break the A and how long did it take you to reconnect with your husband?

My wife negotiated to keep her friendship alive with the OM. She promised she would keep it platonic and even told me a story I hadn’t known before. She said she had a physical affair with a married man before I met her. After they broke it off, she was able to work with him as if it never happened. Because of this, she said she could do it again with the guy at work now. Later she admitted he did not want it to die putting pressure on her to keep the affair alive. We never began reconnecting till after she quit her job and had true NC. I think NC was the middle of April and I do not feel we have reconnected as of yet. I have different feelings for her now, which are different than before the affair. I question how much I love her today but I am in hopes of getting my love for her back.

How is your relationship today? Is your marriage back to normal, better or worse? Is it different than before the affair?

I am not sure what normal is anymore. I think my wife drinks too much and I think it numbs her senses overall. I am sure she still misses the OM. She may even talk to him occasionally and it might keep her somewhat disconnected. She lied so much and for so long, I don’t think the truth matters to her as it did before the affair. I too think we have a lacking of romance problem too. She is an introverted person and doesn’t express her feeling as I do mine. The affair has really emphasized the difference in our emotions.

Was an EN lacking prior to the affair and is it better filled today?

I think my wife struggles with coming out of her. She fights depression and self esteem issues all the time. We are opposites that attracted to each other and we gave each other balance.

Or was it a simple act of selfishness on your part?

My wife rewrote the history of our marriage to justify her affair. I was the worst husband and father on earth according to her during her fog state and during the MC sessions. She was always trying to sell the MC on how bad I was, but her reasoning never passed the acceptability points of view of the MC. The MC could never tell her that she was justified to have the affair. In fact she continued to tell her she must stop seeing the OM. Finally, the OM showed up in the parking lot of our MC as I was waiting in the lot for my wife. That was the straw breaker for me. I told her I was done and she needed to make a choice. It was either he or I. The fog had lifted enough by that point so she chose me even though her heart was still with him.
I think my wife was experiencing a bit of a mid life crisis. She is very attractive but she is aging. The man was 18 years younger than her and that sucked her in. Looking back, she was constantly working out on the treadmill trying to get into better shape. She was in over her head.

Did you reach the hugging and kissing stage in the EA?

My wife did but she claims she never had sex with him. The kissing and hugging was scaring her but it continued anyway. I believe one more trip out of town and I think she would have consummated their relationship. Just my opinion anyway….who knows she may have had sex many times but I will never know. I have read that the friendship to the kissing stage is usually lengthy and the time period from the kissing stage to sex is substantially shorter. She began kissing in Dec and I exposed the affair in Jan. so I hope it never happened.

Were you contemplating having sex or getting close to having sex?

My wife said she could see herself having sex with the OM. She felt like it would have happened in time.

Were you considering leaving your husband?

My wife put down a deposit on an apartment and was shopping for furniture. She very much was going to leave the kids and I. After it was over, on mother’s day she said she felt like scum. Her kids loved her and she was planning on leaving them for her BF.

How do you feel now when you "accidentally" meet the OM?

My wife was recently called by her ex co-workers and they wanted her to have dinner with them. I said no since she couldn’t guarantee the OM wouldn’t show up at the dinner. They never found out about them at work and he would have been invited. He would have gone to see her. I was mad and fought the issue till she gave it up.

She continued to cry out for her freedom and independence until one day I said, “ ok go get your freedom and independence. Go get your old job back, go back to your BF, and get an apartment and leave forever. I will not fight you anymore or fight for you anymore. Before you go, you must look into the mirror and see the woman I see. You are attractive 46 yr old woman but you are aging. You cannot hold unto a 28 yr old guy long term. God will give you back your same medicine within five years for the young man will leave you in time for a woman under 30 years old. You will leave the house as a woman who is un-loyal, untrustworthy, a liar, and a deceitful person who drinks too much. You leave our marriage as the same person you became to be, but you must also ad the title to yourself as the mother who walked from her kids too. I remain the same dedicated father and loyal husband with or without you being here and I will find someone who deems those traits as important”.

I then laid out my plan for splitting up debts and assets with her. I told her I would take the debts and the business and she could walk out free from any responsibility. I told her she didn’t need to even pay child support that I would support the kids. I think I scared her for the next day she asked me why she had to leave the house and I said that the kids and house doesn’t go with independent and freedom. As of that conversation, she has changed her attitude completely. I was not faking, I was fed up and it came through loud and clear.

I am in hopes that I can fall back into love with my wife for I don’t really feel it today. I love her but the affair did substantial damage to our relationship. Many days, I think I would be better off without her. Prior to the affair, I didn’t feel this way.

Thanks for listening to me. I remain dedicated to working things out with all of my mixed feelings.

TooSoon

<small>[ September 06, 2004, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: TooSoonToBeComfortable ]</small>

Toosoon, thanks for sharing your story – I've read it with great interest. You’ve traveled a long and difficult path my friend and I can understand why you still have mixed feelings and still struggling with certain things in your M…

As I’ve said before, I appreciate and admire your (and all other BS’s) continuous commitment, loyalty, dedication and love towards their WS’s in spite of all the enormous pain the WS’s (and their wrong actions and decisions) has put your BS’s through… I think the unconditional, agape love God has put into the hearts of BS’s towards their WS’s is the purest and most beautiful love of all kinds of love…and I’m sure your W (as most remorseful & repentant FWS’s) have appreciation for this…

I think what made this unconditional & agape love of BS’s towards WS’s more wonderful, beautiful and special is the fact that you and other BS’s has decided to stay with your WS’s and recover & work on your M in spite of the fact that adultery is the one thing God accepts as enough grounds for divorce… I think this is because God knows that the damage & pain caused by adultery is so huge that it’s not always possible for all BS’s and M’s to totally recover from this...

Toosoon, just know that God acknowledge your love, dedication and attempts of recovery towards your W and in your M and one day He will greatly reward you for this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ September 06, 2004, 04:21 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet:

To clarify one point in my last point, I meant to say: I was not faking, I was fed up and it came through loud and clear.

Again, thanks for your information for it gives me some level of what can or should be expected post affair time periods.

What country are you from? Did you say Africa? What part are you from?

Toosoon, I’m glad if any of my posts could or can be of help and insight to you. Please feel free to ask any more questions you may have. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I’m from South-Africa and that’s why I'm mostly posting when everyone in the U.S.A. is asleep or eating breakfast. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> In my country it’s already 14:45 pm. What country are you from?

I am from the USA and it is only 8:55 AM right now. I believe DesperateDan is from England and is about 6 hrs ahead of us in the states.

Hopefully things can work out for DesperateDan and his WW, who is very deep in the fog. Hopefully the things I am sharing with him will work with his wife. I worry about him since he is afraid to implement the MB plan. We will see.

TooSoon

Toosoon,

I’m also worried about Desperatedan, but I’m just glad he has someone like you (who have been in his shoes and in a similar situation) who can help him through this exposure stage if he might decide to finally implement it and put your advice (of exposure) into action. I understand his fear, but I saw he've send a short post to his thread this morning and it seems if he is starting to realize he have no other choice than exposing his W. I just hope he won’t wait too long and put this all into action in time. I also wish his WW could read and post here. This MB website (and especially these forums) was a huge wake-up-call & eye opener for me and helped tremendously to lift my fog.

I’m knocking off from work in 10 minutes time, so I’ll post again tomorrow. Enjoy the rest of your day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ September 06, 2004, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

TooSoon,

Yesterday I didn’t have time to respond to your post properly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The night she admitted having an affair, she said, “Yes I am having an affair and the problem you have is, I am in love with another man”. Those words changed my life, as I knew it before.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Toosoon, I think these are the most painful words a spouse can ever hear… From what I’ve read on these forums, it’s easier for BS’s to get past the hurt & pain of betrayal if the WS wasn’t in love with the OP. Personally (for me) the worst from of betrayal would be if there’s physical involvement and sexual intercourse with an OP, especially if there is an PA AND EA going on at the same time, but I have read some BS’s would rather prefer their spouse’s having an One-Night-Stand (ONS) with a stranger where only sex and no feelings where involved, than the pain & hurt of emotional involvement and the knowledge that you spouse is ‘in love’ with another person. Although I had ‘in love’ feelings for OM, I NEVER said the words: “I’m in love with OM” or “I love OM” to my H and I certainly never thought of saying those words to OM. I told my H that I had inappropriate feelings for OM, but I never thought of using those exact words…. Just the awareness that I was “in love” and had those unacceptable feelings for another man was unbearable and very painful for me and I felt too ashamed & guilty about this at the time to speak those words out loud. And I know those words would have caused my dear H too much pain… As you know, I strongly believe in total openness and honesty in M and between spouses, but I also believe some things can be too hurtful for the BS to hear and is sometimes better left unsaid unless the BS ask direct questions and want to know specific things, in which case the WS have to answer those questions honestly and not withholding any information from the BS.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I think NC was the middle of April and I do not feel we have reconnected as of yet. I have different feelings for her now, which are different than before the affair. I question how much I love her today but I am in hopes of getting my love for her back.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AND
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I am in hopes that I can fall back into love with my wife for I don’t really feel it today. I love her but the affair did substantial damage to our relationship. Many days, I think I would be better off without her. Prior to the affair, I didn’t feel this way. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Toosoon, I can understand this and I think your feelings are very normal at this stage. The reason you feel you and your W have not yet reconnected is because both of you are still very early in recovery. It will take time. The other reason might be that your W is still in some withdrawal from the OM and still struggle to get pass certain feelings. I really think this is the case since you said you think your W still misses the OM and drink too much. I also think she drink too much to numb her senses and the residual feelings she might still have for OM. A good estimation of the length of withdrawal is the duration of the A, but other factors like “sensitivity level”, personality etc. also have an influence on this. I see your W was in an A for 8+ months and is only in NC for 5 moths now. I know 5 months might feel like a very long time for you, but in reality it is not. Remember, real recovery can only start after all withdrawal symptoms has ended. From what I have read from the expertise and experience from certain members & veterans, the general time frame for recovery is at least 2 years. So give yourself and your W & M time and patience. I’m sure as your M go stronger and both of you learn to better fill each others most important EN’s, you will reconnect again and get the feelings for your W back. However I’m very concerned about the following you’ve posted:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>…who knows she may have had sex many times but I will never know. I have read that the friendship to the kissing stage is usually lengthy and the time period from the kissing stage to sex is substantially shorter. She began kissing in Dec and I exposed the affair in Jan. so I hope it never happened.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AND </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I think my wife drinks too much and I think it numbs her senses overall. I am sure she still misses the OM. She may even talk to him occasionally and it might keep her somewhat disconnected. She lied so much and for so long, I don’t think the truth matters to her as it did before the affair. I too think we have a lacking of romance problem too. She is an introverted person and doesn’t express her feeling as I do mine. The affair has really emphasized the difference in our emotions.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Toosoon, I’m concerned about the fact that there is not any honesty & openness between you & your W about this. This will hamper & prevent recovery in your M and prevent you & your W to get the feelings for each other back... I’m concerned about the fact that 1) possibly your W haven’t told you the whole truth and 2) you’re not sure if your W told you the whole truth and now you have feelings of doubt, uncertainty & distrust towards her… These things will prevent you and your W to fully reconnect with one another and will prevent you from starting to trust & believe in your W again, which are crucial for recovery or you M and your own personal recovery and to fall back into love with your W... I think you and your W need to have a long and honest talk about this.

You said your W fights depression and self esteem issues all the time. Have your W ever received any IC for this and is she using any A/D’s? I think IC (and possibly A/D’s) is something she must really consider. Alcohol will not solve anything and will only make things worse... Have she shown any signs of true remorse and repentance towards you and the pain she have caused you? Are there any attempts from her side to make amends in the M? You said she is an introverted person who don’t show or share her feelings… I have an idea that she’s also using the alcohol to numb her feelings of guilt, shame etc. and that she possibly drinks too much because some things is still bothering her and she have not yet share everything regarding her A with you... If you approach your W in a tender, emphatic & sensitive way, do you think there is any chance that she might open up towards you? Or have you already tried this approach without any success?

<small>[ September 07, 2004, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet:

I have thought about this many times. I would have preferred my wife would have had a one-night stand of sex after excessive drinking. There would have been no love or real bonding as a result of it. EA’s are very tough to break because they are developed relationships over long periods of time. My wife’s affair was 8.5 month but I bet they began the flirting stages many months before. It could be a one-year plus long affair. EA’s, consummated by sex, have got to be the hardest to break. Sex is bonding and love gets mixed up with lust as a result of great sex. I was single for 10 years after my first divorce and I had many experiences. I was married first time very young, 19 years old and I am on my second marriage now.

My wife said she knew her relationship with the OM was getting heavier than she ever wanted or expected and she knew she needed to end it but it kept continuing, due to the addiction of the good feeling. My wife admitted to saying the words first but she said it in a way like, “You are falling in love with me, aren’t you?” That made it ok for the man, 18 yrs younger, to embrace the moment and to say the words "I love you". The love affair, kissing, and the words, "I love you", became declared. Declaration by two people is a major stepping-stone because they just crossed over a BIG line. My wife said she feared the seriousness of the progression of the relationship and warned him that she was not going to have sex with him so not to even think about it. She said she was able to justify the affair, in her own silly way, by not taking it to or allowing it to go to a sexual level. She said she viewed sex as having a “real” affair and they were only just really “good friends.” I know men will push for the sex and will take the advances during petting, if they are allowed.

I am in hopes I will restore my complete love for her and I hope my feelings of uncertainty are a result of the closeness of the affair. My wife admits she still thinks of the OM but she states it is not always positive. She loved her job and her other co-workers. He hated his job. She asked him to quit before she did and he refused. She viewed that as being selfish and she said he continued to pursue her even after she wanted the affair to end. It was his aggressiveness and the fact that he showed up at the MC parking lot when we were there that made me give her an ultimatum. I told her to choose, either her job and BF or her family and her husband. She chose her family and me but not without depression and doubts. Withdrawal was hard and I think I still see and feel remnants of the symptoms of withdrawal.

My wife has fought depression ever since she was a teenager and even had a DUI, driving under the influence of alcohol, 30 years ago. I think she is a weak and addictive person anyway. I know she could be drinking to shelter the sex and lie or it could just be she is addictive by nature. She has maintained the exact time lines and swears there was no sex. I caught her in so many lies by asking so many different questions yet her story on the sex never altered. I think I had her so flustered and outright hating me, she would have either said she had sex with him to get even with me or she would have screwed up the time lines, etc. There is a real good chance the sex never happened. Even your case lasted a long time, fantasies and all, and sex never happened. I do think she is honest with me in her post fog state. I must admit, she became a good long-term liar during the heart of the affair to the kids and I. I have read that the road from the friendship stage to the “I love you” stage in an EA is substantially longer than from the “I love you” stage to sex in an EA. That makes sense to me. Besides, two people 18 years difference in ages will not easily declare their feelings for the other person in the short run. During the affair, she worked out 5 to 6 days a week on the treadmill and with weights. I know she did this to look younger, thin, and attractive for him. That has completely stopped that routine. In her post fog state, I think she knows she couldn’t have kept him long term. He would eventually want kids and her bearing of children days are over, I would guess. She is 46 now. I told her God would have given her back everything she did to her family plus more had she left for him. I said when you are 50; the OM would be about 33. It would be then he would leave you for a 28-year-old woman. She had herself convinced, she was really what he needed and wanted and he was what she needed and wanted. FOGGGGGGGGG!

My wife takes pills during her PMS stage a couple of weeks a month. I can’t remember what she is taking but it seems to help her some. My wife has shown signs of remorse but it was only about 30 to 40 days ago. She ask me to forgive her and she stated it was never planned and it happened by accident. It will be the best I will get from her. She is not too emotional anyway and I question if I will ever get an ongoing statements of her asking me for forgiveness. One day, I think I would be better off divorced and the next day, I think we have a chance. I am optimistic by nature and I want to give the marriage enough time to rebound.

I have tried every soft and understanding approach I know to break through with her. She told me she loved me this weekend and I told her I need to hear it more than she tells me. She responded by saying, I can only give you as much as I have. That tells me she is as confused about her feelings towards me as I am towards her. Maybe six months will be better than today.

Thanks again for telling me your thoughts and thanks for listening to my thoughts. It really helps us both, I am sure, although you and your h are farther along than my wife and I.

BTW, Dan is coming around, it seems. Sorry for the lengthy post. Sorry you don’t have a home computer, but you seem to have some freedom at your job.

Take Care,

TooSoon

One thing that stands out in TSTBC's post is that WS is imbibing profusely. There will be no healing til that devil is dealt with. (I think it is so common today that most people just accept alcohol consumption in excess as a normal state- but it produces anything but.)
(edited to change initials for WS, not BS in first line!)

<small>[ September 08, 2004, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: cardinal ]</small>

Cardinal:

I haven't wanted to deal with the drinking issue as of yet but I know, in time, I will be forced too. I am working on her cutting back throughout the week for now. She seems to be responding some.

Thanks for the post.

TooSoon

Toosoon,

Yesterday was a very busy day at work and I didn’t have time to respond! Thanks for your post. I also appreciate your thoughts and I have a better understanding of your situation now.

I think your feelings of uncertainty are indeed a result of the closeness of your W’s previous affair… From what I’ve read from your post and the info you’ve provided in your last post, I really don’t think your W is lying when she tells you her A never get sexual and I have a strong ‘gut’ feeling you can believe her with this. The shame and guilt a FWS experience after an A (and especially after the fog has lifted) is often too heavy to carry alone and that’s why it’s often not possible for a WS to hide certain things for too long (my opinion).

After my EA ended, I had a deep need to be totally honest and open with my H about everything and to confess the sinful thoughts and fantasies I had about OM, but because I felt ashamed and know it would hurt my H too much, I never discussed or confessed it to him. On one stage, I told my H (without giving any details)that I had certain obsessive & inappropriate thoughts about OM and that I felt very guilty towards him and God. My H just said it’s better that I haven’t told him at the time and that he didn’t want to know specific things and details because it would indeed hurt him too much and just made him very angry. It appeared at the time that my H genuinely didn’t have any need or desire to know what was exactly going on in my head during those times and this was bothering me a lot... I was thankful that my H wanted to put everything behind us and move on, and I was glad that he didn’t want to know specific details about my thoughts and feelings, but at the same time I was worried that this would hamper our recovery in the long run and that my H wouldn’t realize exactly what impact this EA had on me and what exactly he had forgiven me for… It also appeared my H blamed most of what happened (my EA and excessive thoughts and feelings) on childhood happenings and psychiatric disorder (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder with associated depression) and although I realize this plays a big part in of all of it, much of it also happened because of my own human weaknesses, vulnerabilities and sins and my own wrong choices and actions… It however appeared my H was in denial about this. Maybe this was because although I’m good at expressing and sharing my thoughts and feelings, I’m normally a very introverted, shy & private person and the EA was extremely out of character for me and a surprise for my H too. I’m the typical person who was very judgmental towards people who allowed themselves in A’s and I never thought something like this would ever happen to me.

Anyway, I posted the above concerns to the In Recovery forum and then a member and co-Christian (whose advice, expertise and wisdom I highly respected) send me a very beautiful, insightful & helpful post to help me understand & realize the followings important things from his perspective as a BH:
1) that my H accept me, all known and unknown faults, because he love me… That the "shortcomings" are not relevant, but what is really important is who I am TODAY, not yesterday… And therefore I must not let guilt and fear dominate me or make me think that I must "spill my guts" about everything to him,
2) that the BS is in control and has the "right" to decide how much and what type of information they want and will be able to handle. If the BS doesn’t ask info, they are working out recovery in their minds to the best of their ability and have decided that too much information would do more damage that it is worth;
3) that what my H is doing by not wanting certain info is to protect both me and him from the "information overload" and to limit the amount of info about what he has already forgiven that he has to deal with,
4) that I have to deal with the memories and the desire to purge them to my husband is one of the consequences of the sin that was committed and that I don't have the right to "force" my H to take information he doesn't want because it will make me feel better or because I justify it on the basis of what I think HE would want if I were in HIS shoes.
5) if I want to "get if off my chest", I must do it here (on these forums) and if I need to "talk with someone about things my H doesn't want to hear”, I must do it here as well.

These forums were indeed of big help to “get things of my chest” and in some ways these forums helps a lot to fill my huge need for communication and sharing of thoughts and feelings. Because these forums are anonymous and open, I consider it as a safe place to do so and helpful to other BS’s and WS’s as well. Although my H are my biggest friend and confidant, I also have a few very close same sex friends and confidants whom I can trust completely. My previous IC (a wonderful Christian woman) also became a very close friend & confident of mine (especially during withdrawal) and I’m very lucky to have her in my life. Her help, advice, guidance and friendship have been a very big help for me too.

I agree that declaration of love/feelings by two people is a major stepping-stone. Personally I view it as one of THE biggest and definite stepping-stones and boundaries to be crossed during an EA and that’s why I’m so grateful & thankful that my EA stopped before it could get that far. However, I think OM became aware of my feelings towards him and tried to push me into something more serious by his continuous jokes, flirting and requests on e-mail to give him hugs.

I justified my involvement with OM the same way as your W justified hers with OM: Where your W justified her A by not allowing it to get sexual, I justified mine by not allowing intimate discussions and touching/hugging or kissing. Where your W viewed sex as having a ‘real’ affair, I viewed declaration of feelings, intimate discussions, hugging/kissing etc. as the beginning of a ‘real’ A. It was the first time I get involved in an opposite sex friendship outside M where my H was not part of the friendship as well (first mistake!) and in some ways I was very naïve, ignoring and just plain dumb and ‘stupid’. However, after the friendship became inappropriate, I deep down know & realized that the friendship went wrong but I choose to ignore my guts and conscience. After the EA and friendship ended and I realized I was ‘played’ in some ways by a man 15 years older than me, I felt very stupid, angry & upset with myself… And I became more angry and frustrated with myself as I struggled to get rid of the residual feelings towards OM and struggle to get through withdrawal and to ‘get over’ OM. I’m a very sensitive, emotional and strong ‘feeling’ person and I think this is one of reasons why withdrawal took so long for me.

I can tell from your post that your W is definitely still in withdrawal and it’s very normal for her to still think of the OM from time to time. Toosoon, I know as a BS this must be very hard & painful for you to hear, but remember, withdrawal is something that takes time and patience, but these things will also pass eventually. I believe it’s possible and normal for the fog to slip back from time to time during a WS’s withdrawal and that’s why many FWS’s still experience contradicting feelings and feel confused at times (this happened to me as well). You can believe your W when she tells you the thoughts of the OM is not always positive and this is a very good sign. This shows that although your W still misses the OM and think about him, she have reality and sees and realize things for what it is.

Toosoon, you can read posts I have send to another BH on this thread a few months ago regarding his W’s withdrawal and how to help her to get through it. Maybe you can get more insight into your W and benefit from some of the things I’ve said on thats thread.

I’m concerned about your W’s drinking too and it will be good if this problem can be solved and receive attention. Two posters on this forum who will be able to help & advice you with this is Melodylane and Pepperband.

I have a home computer with Internet access, but me and my H don’t use our Internet facility very often because of financial reasons. Next week Friday I’m going in for a small operation and will be away from work for 2 and a half weeks. During this time I will however make a plan to check this forums and especially Dan’s progress with the exposure etc.

I have shared a lot about my own situation today and my posts became very long. Hope you don't mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Have a nice day!

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ September 09, 2004, 04:46 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet:

I stated this on Desperate Dan's Thread:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I kicked my wife out of the house the night I found out she was apartment shopping with the other man and when she left she stayed all night at the OM's house. She told me the next day, she knew she didn't want to be there nor did she belong there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wanted to give you a brief explanation because these words alone would or could imply the likelyhood of a PA vs an EA. It was my wife's heavy time of the month and she was in no condition to be having romantic sex with the OM. She told me he wanted her to sleep in his bed but she insisted on sleeping on his couch. She further said he wanted her to move in with him but after staying that night at his house, she knew if she was going to move, it had to be to an apartment.

I think she was trying to protect her image as a good Christian woman who was not getting along with her Husband, yet still have access to her BF. I believe if she had one night in her own apartment and the OM would have stayed with her, I am sure.

I do believe that the EA did not really cross into a PA. I have even asked her about alternative sex acts to make her get very specific with me and she still maintains nothing happened. I was making the assumption if I didn't ask the right question, I wouldn't get an honest answer. She was using omission as a way to avoid the truth early on. I am sure the OM tried to get "close" to her or did to some degree, as most men would in a petting situation.

I am telling you this due to our previous discussion and I thought my post to Dan would have thrown up one of your eyebrows. Have a good day and evening. BTW, I hope your surgery is not something serious.

TooSoon

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I am telling you this due to our previous discussion and I thought my post to Dan would have thrown up one of your eyebrows. Have a good day and evening. BTW, I hope your surgery is not something serious.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Toosoon, thanks for the clarification. I didn't read that post before I replied to this thread, but after reading your post, I completely understand your concern about the likelyhood of a PA vs an EA regarding your W's involvement with OM.

The surgery isn't something serious - no need to worry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Take care,
Suzet