TT, beggin' your pardon. I was being hasty. There are 38K MB members!

I don't know why, but I just read TOW for a bit. Urrr, my pizza's coming back up. Big mistake.

Some version of "You sanctimonious BS need to move on already" is repeated constantly over there.

Addicts.

GC

Well, not that i'm comparing it in the same scope, but Jesus was told to 'move on already'
but he did not.

how can we BS move on when our WS won't even file for D? i know i'm not male and not in plan B but just thought i would chime in.

i still maintain that i won't file for D but i'm thinking more now that if H does file then that is it. if we become divorced then that's it. i think that's a pretty clear sign from God and he does allow for D in adultery. i'm thinking that there maybe just too many roadblocks to endure in a R w/my H (post-D).

everyone keeps saying i'm young too and because i don't have kids that may be making things easier. i don't know but i'm pretty much out of love w/my H now and sad to say i'm just waiting for him to file, maybe that's the wrong stance to take but i don't have much sympathy for him and if he wants a D then he has got to file for a D and live w/the fact that it was himself who did it. for my case i don't even see the point in plan B and have changed my mind about even given a letter.

continued prayers to all, RR

Well, my W has already revised her termination agreement to take out a demand that I said no to.

It's still got some screwed up things in it.

Getting this legal stuff hurts as bad as anything.

GC

Gray,

I am glad that you had a good time at the MB party the other night. I think it probably did take a lot of guts to drive down that drive, but guts is one thing you got!

Don't know how to comment on the marital asset agreement, though. I hate to say it is good, and don't know if it is bad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />


weaver

Hi gc:

Boy, I wish I coulda gone 2 the bbq at Penny's, but I couldn't.

I would have been eagerly driving up the driveway, though. My few meetings with fellow MBers have been immensely enjoyable!

They're PEOPLE! (really smart ones, 2) Wow! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

2long, they are smart all right. Like whips.

I have a question that's been bugging me for a long time. I would think that a WS who crushes and then divorces her spouse, especially one who in an early attempt to end her A spoke often of "closure", would want to provide some kind of resolution for her BS.

The sparrow and I have had practically no discussion about what's happening or what got us here. During withdrawal we talked some. In those conversations, when she initiated them, she was very inarticulate. I talked about my problems, and asked her to help me with them. That was about it. Since she left, we've spoken very little, and although I have told her a thing or two, there hasn't been much actual R talk. When we have talked, at her most articulate she has said she gradually fell out of love for me, and that's the best she's done.

I know she has tremendous guilt, and that she still thinks highly of me, even though she doesn't mind discarding me and divorcing me. So why has she made no attempt to have any "closure" with me? I would have thought by now that she'd have composed some kind of fog-filled letter at least, but there's been nothing at all.

This M is going to end with things absolutely unadressed and unresolved. Very bothersome, but even more I just find it incredible that she could walk away from our life together without sharing any of her thoughts with me at all. Eleven years together, then yoink! Nothing.

GC

gc:

If she had proper closure with you, she'd have only her lie with OM.

Now, even though you're not speaking, she still "has" you as a fallback. Makes no sense, I know, but neither does the A.

I think that's why she cried so much when you told her plan B over the phone. If she didn't care, she'd have been relieved.

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud:
<strong> This M is going to end with things absolutely unadressed and unresolved. Very bothersome, but even more I just find it incredible that she could walk away from our life together without sharing any of her thoughts with me at all. Eleven years together, then yoink! Nothing.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GC,

My first marriage ended like this after 10 years. I never did find out what was going on, or why he left. But I don't think he knew either. Not everyone is in touch with him/her self. My first H called me several months later and said he was starting to wonder if his problems were with his job and not his wife after all. I said, gee, so sorry so sad. Too late.

Someone wiser than me told me back then to accept that I will probably never have the answers and have to get on with life anyway. She was right. Good luck - I know you are strong enough to deal with it and you'll get there. And I know it's hard, as I've been there and done that.

Gray -

My WH is just like Sparrow. All he did was lie to me. I never got any details about the why of the affair from him. He never admitted to anything, never told me when it started, nothing.

However after 22 months of this, I don't really care anymore. They deserve each other. OW's husband has moved on also.

It was a long, horrible struggle, but I am now glad that I did my best. I took my vows seriously, and did believe we were "one flesh", even after he dishonored our marriage.

I think the best thing about the MB program, is you do heal, with or without your partner. My WH is a mess now, hanging out at bars all day, not doing anything. Meanwhile my life is once again wonderful. So hang in there. It is so worthwhile.

Glad that you hooked up with Penny's group. They are experts, and great people to know.

Deja, your sig is driving me nuts!

I've been listening to the audiobook version of the Dalai Lama's How to Practice recently. One of the things he says, that I hang on to real tight like, is that in any situation, you should never give up hope.

Easy for me to say. This is the second time for you. Bet this makes you wonder if you can ever make yourself vulnerable again.

So, in what ways did your divorce change you?

GC

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: graycloud ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud:
<strong> Deja, your sig is driving me nuts!

I've been listening to the audiobook version of the Dalai Lama's How to Practice recently. One of the things he says, that I hang on to real tight like, is that in any situation, you should never give up hope.

Easy for me to say. This is the second time for you. Bet this makes you wonder if you can ever make yourself vulnerable again.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also believe in not giving up hope - to a fault. I have a personality flaw that makes me stay in situations I shouldn't; give people the benefit of the doubt long after I shouldn't. So, the only way I can move on is to deliberately quit hoping for change. In fact I really do not believe there is hope left for my M, and am quite frankly unsure if I can trust him again. We had some problems a year ago, and he PROMISED he would talk to me if it got to the point that he was thinking of D again. He didn't keep the promise.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So, in what ways did your divorce change you? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a fear of abandonment and a feeling of having been not treated fairly. The abandonment goes back long before this though, to my father who left his family behind in Europe when he escaped from a Communist prison to come here. As a child, I did not understand that turning his back on them was a defense mechanism for him to deal with the pain and guilt he had in leaving them behind. As an adult, I know he was on the equivalent of death row and it was leave or die, but to the child I was it seemed like he had abandoned his family.

I also feel like I gave and lost more than I got from the first marriage, and it will likely happen again. I was the one with assets and $, much of which is now gone. In some ways I traded down in my life with each marriage - financially and in other ways. Each time I went back to school to get another degree, a husband left me. The reasons and situations are not the same - but I don't think either one of them could handle my being strong and having a rich life of my own. My first H was threatened by me and my family, and my current H thinks he has been shortchanged in the needs dept because I was busy with my own things. He's partly right - but I also have worked hard to make amends and tried to find out what he needs.

This has been hard to write - hard to dredge up old memories as well as current pains - to say nothing of the border collie pup who, while I've been trying to type this, has removed two keys from my keyboard and dropped his bone on it a few times as well.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

On another note, I found a house today I like. I said I'd take it, but there is someone in line ahead of me. A single guy with 2 dogs, going through a sudden and unexpected divorce just like me. We'll see which of us needs it worse. I'll know sometime Wednesday. It's 3 miles from work too, compared to almost 20 now and awful traffic.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud:
<strong> Deja, your sig is driving me nuts!

I've been listening to the audiobook version of the Dalai Lama's How to Practice recently. One of the things he says, that I hang on to real tight like, is that in any situation, you should never give up hope.

Easy for me to say. This is the second time for you. Bet this makes you wonder if you can ever make yourself vulnerable again.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also believe in not giving up hope - to a fault. I have a personality flaw that makes me stay in situations I shouldn't; give people the benefit of the doubt long after I shouldn't. So, the only way I can move on is to deliberately quit hoping for change. In fact I really do not believe there is hope left for my M, and am quite frankly unsure if I can trust him again. We had some problems a year ago, and he PROMISED he would talk to me if it got to the point that he was thinking of D again. He didn't keep the promise.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So, in what ways did your divorce change you? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a fear of abandonment and a feeling of having been not treated fairly. The abandonment goes back long before this though, to my father who left his family behind in Europe when he escaped from a Communist prison to come here. As a child, I did not understand that turning his back on them was a defense mechanism for him to deal with the pain and guilt he had in leaving them behind. As an adult, I know he was on the equivalent of death row and it was leave or die, but to the child I was it seemed like he had abandoned his family.

I also feel like I gave and lost more than I got from the first marriage, and it will likely happen again. I was the one with assets and $, much of which is now gone. In some ways I traded down in my life with each marriage - financially and in other ways. Each time I went back to school to get another degree, a husband left me. The reasons and situations are not the same - but I don't think either one of them could handle my being strong and having a rich life of my own. My first H was threatened by me and my family, and my current H thinks he has been shortchanged in the needs dept because I was busy with my own things. He's partly right - but I also have worked hard to make amends and tried to find out what he needs.

This has been hard to write - hard to dredge up old memories as well as current pains - to say nothing of the border collie pup who, while I've been trying to type this, has removed two keys from my keyboard and dropped his bone on it a few times as well.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

On another note, I found a house today I like. I said I'd take it, but there is someone in line ahead of me. A single guy with 2 dogs, going through a sudden and unexpected divorce just like me. We'll see which of us needs it worse. I'll know sometime Wednesday. It's 3 miles from work too, compared to almost 20 now and awful traffic.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud:
<strong> Deja, your sig is driving me nuts!

I've been listening to the audiobook version of the Dalai Lama's How to Practice recently. One of the things he says, that I hang on to real tight like, is that in any situation, you should never give up hope.

Easy for me to say. This is the second time for you. Bet this makes you wonder if you can ever make yourself vulnerable again.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also believe in not giving up hope - to a fault. I have a personality flaw that makes me stay in situations I shouldn't; give people the benefit of the doubt long after I shouldn't. So, the only way I can move on is to deliberately quit hoping for change. In fact I really do not believe there is hope left for my M, and am quite frankly unsure if I can trust him again. We had some problems a year ago, and he PROMISED he would talk to me if it got to the point that he was thinking of D again. He didn't keep the promise.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So, in what ways did your divorce change you? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a fear of abandonment and a feeling of having been not treated fairly. The abandonment goes back long before this though, to my father who left his family behind in Europe when he escaped from a Communist prison to come here. As a child, I did not understand that turning his back on them was a defense mechanism for him to deal with the pain and guilt he had in leaving them behind. As an adult, I know he was on the equivalent of death row and it was leave or die, but to the child I was it seemed like he had abandoned his family.

I also feel like I gave and lost more than I got from the first marriage, and it will likely happen again. I was the one with assets and $, much of which is now gone. In some ways I traded down in my life with each marriage - financially and in other ways. Each time I went back to school to get another degree, a husband left me. The reasons and situations are not the same - but I don't think either one of them could handle my being strong and having a rich life of my own. My first H was threatened by me and my family, and my current H thinks he has been shortchanged in the needs dept because I was busy with my own things. He's partly right - but I also have worked hard to make amends and tried to find out what he needs.

This has been hard to write - hard to dredge up old memories as well as current pains - to say nothing of the border collie pup who, while I've been trying to type this, has removed two keys from my keyboard and dropped his bone on it a few times as well.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

On another note, I found a house today I like. I said I'd take it, but there is someone in line ahead of me. A single guy with 2 dogs, going through a sudden and unexpected divorce just like me. We'll see which of us needs it worse. I'll know sometime Wednesday. It's 3 miles from work too, compared to almost 20 now and awful traffic.

I'm virtually huggin' atchya, Deja. Thanks for telling.

Good luck on the house. It's funny when you find out that BS are all over the place, isn't it?

GC

I would think that a WS who crushes and then divorces her spouse, especially one who in an early attempt to end her A spoke often of "closure", would want to provide some kind of resolution for her BS.

So what you're saying is that you can't understand why the insane isn't acting sane? Why the selfish isn't thinking of anyone but themselves? Why someone who is absolutely and TOTALLY immersed in themselves and their fantasy thoughts doesn't act in a reasonable and rational way?

You're trying to look at this situation as a rational person would. She's not rational at this point. No matter how much she may convince people that she knows what she's doing - she is TOTALLY LOST in the fantasy world she's put together in her head. She's following her emotions and acting on what 'feels' like the thing to do at the time. She can't explain to you what happend - she has absolutely no idea herself. She's filled her head with justifications that are explainable only as far as Mom's explaination of "Because I told you so, that's why". She thinks she knows what she wants, because that choice FEELS better, and she thinks that her reasons are good enough to go ahead with whatever hazy plan she has in her head. But explain it? How? How could she without actually LOOKING DEEP into the reality of the situation. That's not somewhere she can even fathom going - because that wouldn't feel good at all.

She's lost, Gray. She has to find her way back to HERSELF first. Maybe then she can talk about it and make sense.

GC, i would have to agree w/what hopeful said "So what you're saying is that you can't understand why the insane isn't acting sane? Why the selfish isn't thinking of anyone but themselves? Why someone who is absolutely and TOTALLY immersed in themselves and their fantasy thoughts doesn't act in a reasonable and rational way?"

someday i'll stop comparing our situations, but just to remind you that my H did explain everything in a 4 page typed letter that he had overnighted to me back in august. he explained all he did and didn't do and all i did and didn't do and that used up all his love for me and that he is now happy and that things will never change, he can't come back, that all he wants is to be happy and i need to move on, etc. well maybe that was closure or an explanation in his mind but all it said to me was that he was trying to feel better about himself because it certainly has not provided closure for me because he has not filed for D yet.

so again, it doesn't matter if they provide an explanation or not, they are fogged brain, alien abducted, caught up in addiction, irrational people who nothing of what they do or say makes sense to us. i think w/the implementation of plan B you are giving yourself some closure and it eventually it will close for you, regardless what the sparrow does or doesn't do.

That's right, H4F. There I go again, trying to understand the insane.

There's lots to understand. Working to get out of this mess emotionally, trying to have compassion for the sparrow and OM, trying to improve myself, trying to have hope, and doing what I can to make it possible to save my M - all that can confuse a fella.

And I'm coding! My heavens...

GC

You are doing what you can do, GC. Nothing else is required. To go over it again and again in your mind is gonna make you squirrely.

Somehow, I don't picture you with an acorn in your mouth.

You really are amazing in your compassion.

- Kimmy

Sparrow's lawyer has demanded that I respond to her latest offer by 10/25. Who are they to put demands on me? Want to hang a deadline on my head? File it.

(giant vent deleted)

Everybody suffers. My experience does not make me unique or special. The person responsible is somebody who loved me, and that is not unusual either.

My favorite aunt is dying of cancer. She knows it. She does not want to die, and she fights, but I think she believes she's not going to make it. Every day, she faces that reality.

So I'm not going to walk around looking at all the happy people enjoying themselves and grieve for myself, that I'm not one of them. Because most everybody in the world, sometime, is one of us. We're just taking a turn at it.

I will survive this experience. I'm not too old. I'm healthy. I'm improving.

And the world will lay more loss and pain on me again. The next time, I'll be less surprised and offended by its arrival.

GC