geez, gc!

Do you happen 2 live in one of the 7 states in the union that still allows "alienation of affection" lawsuits? If so, talk 2 your lawyer about filing one against the OM.

RM lives in one of those states, and I've been very tempted 2 at least threaten him with one! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (we need one of those devil graemlins on here!)

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud:
<strong> Everybody suffers. My experience does not make me unique or special. The person responsible is somebody who loved me, and that is not unusual either.

So I'm not going to walk around looking at all the happy people enjoying themselves and grieve for myself, that I'm not one of them. Because most everybody in the world, sometime, is one of us. We're just taking a turn at it.

I will survive this experience. I'm not too old. I'm healthy. I'm improving.

And the world will lay more loss and pain on me again. The next time, I'll be less surprised and offended by its arrival.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great attitude! I know you'll make it too.

DV: Have you read what Harley has to say about sacrifice? eg res.confl., POJA, I need to re-read this one a few times.

GC: It was good to meet you Saturday. I was not familiar with your story. I noticed one thing in reading this thread to "catch up". Your WW's question about "Ever?". I think that is why so often a letter is recommended. People frequently hear what they want or need to hear. So, I'm not sure that she really "heard" your condition for re-establishing contact. This is purely conjecture, but if she was in a place where she assumed she would spend the rest of her life with the OM, then she could "hear" what you said as: "I will never have any contact with you again.", even though that is not what you said. She might even leterally remember you saying those words, even if you did not say them. With a letter, the WS can go back and re-read it when they are in a different place, emotionally.

I am not saying this to criticize you - in fact her response may have given you an opportunity to emphasize your position regarding re-establishing contact, something a letter by itself would not allow you to do. It is also possible for a WS to read a letter, mis-remember what it said, and throw it out <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .

I have seen a couple of effective Plan B's where there was minimal contact regarding children or household goods, where the WS tried to "engage" the spouse during the required contact. In those cases, the BS re-iterated that they did not want to have ANY discussions about anything other than the required business at hand until contact with the OP was ended. It was a good opportunity to re-inforce that message, but was emotionally costly to the BS - and Plan B is to protect the BS, after all.

Good luck.

There is a good "Separation and Divorce Care" group that meets at our church. I think the next group does not start until January, though. Email me through Penny if you want to know more.

<small>[ October 19, 2004, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by johnh39:
<strong> DV: Have you read what Harley has to say about sacrifice? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, why do you ask? Instead of hijacking this thread, maybe you can answer on my thread on DV forum (about the old neighborhood).

jh39, thanks for your response.

My letter is pretty clear about my conditions, and I sent it on Thursday, the same day I did the telephone plan B. So I think I'm covered there.

So now there's just this rotten business of letting go of my wife. I'm having trouble with the intellectual part, where what she's doing is so senseless and insane that I can't believe she can follow through with it.

I have to believe she will, yet keep hope. That's tricky.

I think I would like to meet with that group at your church, so long as they don't mind that I'm agnostic (unhappily so).

I'll get in touch; thanks.

GC

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud:
<strong> I think I would like to meet with that group at your church, so long as they don't mind that I'm agnostic (unhappily so).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FYI - since you are in the TC area like I am, I'll share something I've learned. There are at least two groups I plan in the future to hook up with (but am not ready for now). One is Singles All Together, and they meet on Thursdays in Edina, I think. I was involved with them over 20 years ago, before I met my current H. They are basically a social club, and I had lots of fun (at least back in the good old days).

The other group is actually a 10 week course called "Rebuilding" and it is to help people who are ready to leave the past behind and move on - with help on how to do that in a healthy way. I believe this course (or workshop?) is offered periodically, and I think it is held in the eastern suburbs somewhere.

As I said, I'm not ready yet for either of these, but it makes me feel good to know when I am, I won't be sitting out there all alone with no place to go.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud:
<strong> Good luck on the house. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't get it. BUT - I'm looking at another one on Friday that sounds really good. I also have one in the wings that the landlord REALLY wants to rent to me. He has lowered the rent by $300 for me, and offered to install a fence for my dogs. So, that might be an option too. Both are close to work.

Good, good.

Just after the stroke of midnight, the Red Sox win.

Maybe there is something out there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

gc

So, no word from the sparrow of course.

Her lawyer has placed a new deadline of 12/1 on me for coming up with some cash I'll have to give the sparrow for a credit card, and demanded that I respond to the latest proposed separation agreement by next Wednesday. I haven't even bothered to call my attorney about it.

Honestly, I'm feeling kind of rebellious about it right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

She hasn't filed, and my attitude is, if you want deadlines, file. Otherwise, I'll respond when I like.

I'll be asking my lawyer's opinion about this next week, but right now, why should I jump through hoops to make my WW's divorce easier?

Another thing - I feel like asking her to take a pregnancy test. I'll have to ask my attorney if this is out of line.

Wow, plan B works. I'm listening to John Coltrane and getting sleepy. I just hope I don't lose my house. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

GC

I have a question about sentimental objects.

I've been with the sparrow 11 years. I have wedding pictures, hundreds of other photos, letters she wrote me (probably 100 of them), birthday cards...

I'm trying to figure out whether or not I should pack that stuff up with the things I give her. Should I keep it and protect it, or should I let it go?

I suppose I should consider her reaction. She might look at it and be bummed, she might see it as a guilt-trip I'm laying on her.

But mainly I just can't figure out if I want the stuff.

I don't like those attachment to objects, but down the road, will I regret it if I give that stuff up? And if I give it to her, is she crazy enough to throw it away? Could be.

Bah! Not sure...

GC

GC...I am not sure I am the best person to give advice since my emotions have been all over the map with my interactions with WH. But I can tell you what I have done and how it was received.

Things I have done since d-day, 5/22/04:

-On our 3 year anniversary, 1 month post d-day, I gave my WH a scrapbook I was preparing for him way before he dropped the bomb on me. This scrapbook included a chronical of every note, poem, card, scrap of paper,journal entries and vows we have shared with each other along with pictures during our 5 year romantic journey together. His response for this gift that took me several weeks to put together, "thanks for the book."

-Wrote him a poem in follow-up to one I had written to him after he proposed to me. This poem was also read at our wedding. No response from him.

-Send him a love note along with a pair of sexy underwear that WH used to "get off" on when I'd wear them. No response from this.

-Countless number of e-mails reminiscing about good times spent together. Little or no response from him.

-Most recently, I packed a box of books which included one of our wedding albums along with other sentimental items from his childhood. No response from this.

I am sure some of this is affecting him somewhat because every human has emotions, including our WS's who are seemingly possessed by the devil. I am not sure how much of this he has allowed to be deposited into his love bank and how much of it he is just ignoring but I felt good giving it to him and have no regrets letting go of it. I figure I want to start on a clean slate if my marriage does not work. I don't want to hold onto memories that ended on a sour note...rather put these thoughts behind and move on with my life if divorce is truly what is meant to be for us (I hope this is not the case though).

Hope this helps a little.

-K

Me: 28 yo FW
Him: 30 yo WH
Married: 3.5 years
His Affair: 4 months last fall, ended 1/04; he dropped bomb and left me 5/04, been separated ever since with minimal contact; he admits to dating, I am NOT. No divorce papers filed thank god.

gc:

"I'm trying to figure out whether or not I should pack that stuff up with the things I give her. Should I keep it and protect it, or should I let it go?"

If this were me, I would hate 2 get rid of that stuff, but I would like my W 2 have it 2 think about. Can you make copies and send her the originals?

edited 2 add: And when you send her the originals, let them "just happen" 2 be in one of the boxes. No markings, no special annotations. Let her find them and think they were "just there" with no overt intentions on your part for them being there.

-ol' 2long

<small>[ October 24, 2004, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Goldangit, my big brother just filled me with beer and Chinese takeout. Somebody freakin' give me a hug.

GC

{{{{{{{{{{{{GC}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

How ya doin' tonight? You okay?

I'm praying for a better day and God's strength.

{{{{{{{{{{{{Hang in there, GC}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

BOGO special on hugs...buy one, get one free..two for the price of one.

SS

Tomorrow I'm seeing my attorney.

I need to decide whether or not to respond to the latest MTA (marital termination agreement) from the sparrow, and when. Her attorney asked that we give a response by Wednesday (25 Oct.). But since sparrow hasn't actually filed, I don't feel too obligated to accommodate that demand.

Still wondering how she can do it...

GC

gc:

Path of least resistance. She can "do it" because she can't face what she's doing.

-ol' 2long

Thanks 2long.

Can't help but be curious about something else...

Almost two weeks ago (!), when I enacted plan B over the phone, the sparrow said, "I NEED my things!" She doesn't have all that much here anymore, really. A dresser, some books, and collectory stuff like bowls and vases. A few jackets.

I told her, she can come get the remaining stuff whenever she wants, just get her representative to contact me and let me know, and I'll arrange it all in the garage. She didn't know who she could have do this for her. And she did threaten to take me to court to get her things, even though I said she could get them any time, it was just going to have to be arranged without any direct contact between us.

I have not been contacted about any of this stuff that she seemed to so desperately want two weeks ago.

Isn't that interesting? I think she'd rather lose this stuff than deal with this new snag.

GC

Tonight I found I could not access my email. I realized that whoops, the payments for Internet service were on the sparrow's credit card.

So... either she cancelled the payments, or she called and had my password changed and is reading my email.

I should probably not get in too much of a twist about it right now, but it's another discourtesy at least, like when she cancelled our YMCA membership without telling me.

Yuck. She does nothing but hurt me and inconvenience me and shows me not a shred of consideration. This is a person who used to be so moral, and now all she does is create pain.

Maybe I'm making too much of this, but I'm tired and having trouble sleeping. Worried she and OM are rifling through my email. There's six months worth of sent and received messages there. A few vents perhaps, tons of correspondence with car4love, emails to my close friends, everything.

And my provider's phone support is closed for the night.

I shouldn't even care if she reads my email. There's not that much to hide, but I'm sure there's a thing or two in there she could use against me.

I snoozed on this. Should have taken care of it long ago. Stupid, stupid.

I think maybe this calls for an Ambien and I'll have to just deal with it in the morning. Doh.

GC

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud:
<strong> I have a question about sentimental objects.

...I have wedding pictures, hundreds of other photos, letters she wrote me, ...birthday cards...

I'm trying to figure out whether or not I should pack that stuff up with the things I give her. Should I keep it and protect it, or should I let it go?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Graycloud,

First, I wanted to tell ya something. I know I don't pop in every day to write to you or give ya support or encouragement, but I want you to know that I do read every day and I pray for you every day. I've been in your shoes, my man. It sucks, loving your spouse and wanting them to choose you--facing a divorce you never wanted because they won't face themselves. I hope from time to time you can look forward to where I am now and think to yourself, "There IS recovery after divorce. I CAN survive this and even THRIVE."

Next, regarding the sentimental memorabilia...speaking from a position of hindsight, I will share with you what I did and what worked and what didn't. I split up "family" photos and stuff 50/50 with my exH. I gave him half and kept half, and he basically had no interest whatsoever. In fact, I think I ended up with some of his grandparents' pictures and when I asked him if he'd like them, he said, "You keep them--you were always into geneology." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Regarding sentimental ITEMS like our wedding invitations, bouquets, honeymoon stuff--I did keep all those items and I put them in a box labeled "Wedding and Honeymoon" and I put them onto a shelf in my closet where I can see them everyday. I chose not to look at them for quite a while after I packed them, because when I packed the box, I looked through it all and sort of said "Goodbye." After about a year (or so) I saw the box every day and knew right where it was, and one day for some reason, I wanted to open it and all the stuff was right there. I think I was ready to open it.

I made the decision NOT to throw the stuff away or give it to my exH because even though it is a painful reminder to me of what I thought our marriage was and what I have lost, it is also a wonderful part of who I am as a woman. I was a wife--and I am now a woman who would choose an intimate, committed relationship. I meant my vows--and I am now a woman who can make and stand by vows. I deeply loved my husband--and I am now a woman who knows what respectful, mature, interdependent love is. I was faithful physically and emotionally--and I am now a celibate (haha) but very monogamous person. I was a little innocent and immature--and I am now a more realistic, mature woman. I made children with this man--and I am now a fortunate mother and hopefully one day a grandmother. I offered to him my youth and beauty as a free gift--and I now have wit and deviousness to offer! haha. It just IS part of who I am now!!!

So I kept my sentimentals. I would suggest that you do too, but you do what is best for you Graycloud. Your heart knows what to do--just do it.


CJ

Thanks, CJ.

I'm going to keep the stuff for myself. I'm going to keep everything. I'm not going to stash any pictures of the two of us in a box with other stuff, anything like that.

I'm trying to let her go. It's very tough when somebody you love becomes somebody else though. Hard to accept that they have killed the person they once were.

This email stuff is becoming a big problem. I cannot access it, I can't get it moved, nothing. She's changed all the security information. She's effectively stolen my email.

GC