Hey GC,

I don’t know how I’d feel if I was childless and in your shoes, but I’m going to encourage you to stick it out a while longer; partially for selfish reasons. I at least can point at you and say, “If he can do this so can I”.

Can’t you get the house appraised now and use that value for any impending settlement?

Maybe it’s a gender thing, but I know that waiting is difficult for me too. I like to fix things, see a definite end and a start, go and achieve the goal with effort...not wait for something that may never arrive. I also feel like I’ve started a race in which I wasn’t told how far away the finish line is. Sorta like someone will just run over and tap me on the shoulder and suddenly tell me it’s over, or worse, that I passed the finish line long ago but didn’t notice. No control on my part. How do I pace myself? I hate this.

Give it some time. Let her pass through significant dates alone...Christmas, birthdays etc. Let OM’s financial disaster and selfish abandonment of his family play out a while too. Base your timeline on a cognitive approach rather than emotional. There will always be pretty girls at political discussions and parties and “band gigs”.

Thanks, Binder. You're right, of course... and your "race" analogy is right on. Just having doubts. I'm sick this week, plus I had that pretty girl experience, so my brain is a bit scrambled. I'll admit it, that one got to me. How could it not have? I've been alone and celibate for six months.

GC

I've said it once and I'll say it again, I know EXACTLY how you feel. My h never ever gave me any indication that anything was going to change after dday. absolutely nothing and makes me wonder just how long things would have gone on until he actually told me. one of my goals, if you could call it that, was to not be the one that filed. but after all this, there really to be a point when you realize that it's time to end this. i say that because you and i don't have kids. my h filed so it really was pointless for me to just wait until everything happened when i pretty much knew it wasn't going to change and you know what? when it got to that point, i didn't want him back. i didn't want to be with someone i would never really trust again and who would continually put himself in vulnerable positions just by virtue of his career and hobby choices, not to mention all the other obstacles.

you were not the one that started the process, sparrow was. now it's just a matter if you want to drag things out or maybe NOT help things along. personally i want to start the new year off on a good foot. so maybe that's a time line you can work with. it's really not that far away. like you said, it's been 6 months for you so what else can you expect at this point, it was inevitable that you would start to feel the way you do given the circumstances.

i'm not afraid to be alone, i've actually been on my own for over a year now. but you know what? i have so much more to offer now and with all that i've learned it's very exciting thinking about all the possibilites that are just waiting out there. some may fault me or whatever but IMO i've been separated for a year, have had nothing to go on, and the D will be final within the next couple of weeks, i'm not waiting. i've already gone out a few times and it's truly amazing the things that i've realized. i think my h and i could have had a long marriage but you know what? it would have been void of mutually enjoyable things and i'm just no longer willing to settle for that and that's not what God wants for me. he has shown me that there are better things out there and someone out there and that all this has happened for a reason.

continued prayers to you, RR

<small>[ November 24, 2004, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: roughroad ]</small>

My first H was cheating on me (which I found out after he left) and he had also started drinking. I had never heard of a "dry drunk" before, but apparently that's what he was for most of our M. Anyway, long story short - I made the same pact you did about not being the one to end it. But though he left, I was the one who filed. When I found out about all the drinking and driving he was doing, I became worried that his name was still on all our assets and if he killed someone, I would also lose everything. That prompted me into it, but then I realized I was SO tired of limbo and of placing my destiny in his hands, waiting to see when, or if, he would do something. It was a relief to make the decision and just move on.

I did a sort of Plan B, though I had never actually heard of it at that time. I told him to NEVER try to contact me, especially not at work, and I changed my home phone # (got an unlisted #). We did have contact at income tax time. At this point he informed me he might have made a mistake by leaving me, that it hadn't made him happy after all. My reaction was "so sorry so sad..." but I didn't care anymore. And I never looked back again. For me the key was my answer to the question, "what if he DOES come back?" - and found - to my surprise - that I didn't want him back.

Thanks for always hanging on this thread of mine, RR. I'm so glad you're feeling okay.

I'm definitely experiencing what they must mean when they say "mixed feelings".

I love my wife.

I want her relationship with OM to fail.

But I don't know if I want her back.

And I don't know if I want to go through a long and painful recovery.

I would like to meet somebody again, experience all those things in a new, clean relationship. I deserve one.

I'm so tempted to get out of this mess. I think maybe my WW is not strong enough to do what she's got to do to push the divorce through.

GC

(slight thread jack Gray, forgive me?)

Deja Vu,

For me the key was my answer to the question, "what if he DOES come back?" - and found - to my surprise - that I didn't want him back.

For me this question is practically debilitating me. I keep thinking I should go out and start socializing again, and atleast making friends with guys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , but this question keeps me almost paralized and has ever since my own ordeal began. What if he comes back? What if he changes? What if I am involved with someone else, then I have to worry about hurting someone. Will I want him, if he changes?

What if, what if, what if?????? It's killing me!

I really like what your dad said about what it takes to not become bitter, to maintain contact with O/sex people.

My loyalty to my ex-fiancee, even now is insane isn't it. But I worry he'll change and I won't be here for him. Gross!

Thanks Gray, thread jack over.

<small>[ November 24, 2004, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

GC,

Can't fault you for feeling the flutters for the other woman. You're human and it's hard to be single when you're used to being married. I do think that you'll feel better about yourself overall if you keep from actually "dating" until your DV is final.

As for pushing it along, like was mentioned, Sparrow started it anyway. I on the other hand, STARTED my divorce. I have a bit of guilt from that yet. Wish X would have filed. But he didn't.

I filed for several reasons, but a big one was the same as Deja Vu's:

When I found out about all the drinking and driving he was doing, I became worried that his name was still on all our assets and if he killed someone, I would also lose everything.

I still struggle with guilt because sometimes it seems a poor reason. (Of course that other pesky reason...the one he's living with...was probably a valid one to DV for.)

Unlike all of you (GC, RR, etc.), I really am afraid I'll be alone for the rest of my life. Although I have you beat--been alone and celibate for 10 months now (and yes it bothers me)--I don't really see much that I'm attracted to, I don't go places to meet potential people, and frankly I don't have any opposite-sex friends. Actually, I don't have many really good same-sex friends either, come to think about it. That's what happens when you become all wrapped up in work and kids and your spouse.

I think you'll do fine what ever happens. You seem very well-grounded and together, and like you're a pretty interesting guy from the posts I've read.

You do probably need to take it slow though. Get to know yourself and become comfortable with you as a single guy before you jump into another serious relationship.

LL

Weaver,

Not really a threadjack - I think this is not unlike what Gray has been struggling with either.

I have decided how I'm going to handle things: same way I was handling them when I met my current H. I had decided I was not interested in a "committed relationship" and did not want to get married again. I dated casually, but was always upfront about my position - I didn't advertise it to people I'd just met, but if someone got too pushy, that was my line. It also was my MINDSET and it kept me from seeing everyone I met as a possible mate.

I'm going to do this same thing again. It worked then, and I really believe whatever is meant to be, will be. If H changes and comes back he will be a different person and so will I. How can I know NOW what we will both be like THEN? So, I can't answer a question about the future other than to say, if it was meant to be, it will be - and if I meet someone else and change my position on a committed relationship, and then H comes back - I will assume we were NOT meant to have a second chance after all.

Those two paragraphs are quite profound in that I think you have the key to getting ones mind in a good, healthy place for moving on.

And your right, so many people in this sitch including Gray have got to be struggling with the same questions.

Thank you Deja, I need to print your reply out when I go back to my office because this is a huge problem for me.

well i forgot to say my record, 13months celibacy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> anyway........

Deja, when you said "and if I meet someone else and change my position on a committed relationship, and then H comes back - I will assume we were NOT meant to have a second chance after all." i too had the concerns when i thought about possibly being in another relationship and what might happen if h called and wanted to come back. well just as more time passed by i just realized i just didn't want that. i would never go out with someone who i knew had an affair so why would going out with my ex be any different? because we would be starting over from scratch. but like i said i don't want him back. i stop short in thanking him for what he did but i'm at a point where i can look back and be able to see the good in the situation.

Well, there it was - LL called the girl I met the other day "the other woman". Can't have that, can we now? I'll have to be good. Stupid principles!

My MIL just called me to wish me a happy Thanksgiving and tell me she loves me and that she's thinking about me. I didn't ask her about the sparrow, and she didn't tell me anything.

At one point she asked if I'm starting to feel "normal". I told her, "I don't really know what normal is any more. I'm learning about a whole new kind of normal. She said, "I know; I am too." Yech. Poor MIL.

That's tonight! Whoopee.

GC

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, there it was - LL called the girl I met the other day "the other woman". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oops! I did, didn't I. That was quite unintentional--didn't mean she was that kind of "other woman". I am great at sticking my foot in my mouth like that, though. (Yay! I AM good at something after all... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

RR,

Darn, you have my celibacy record beat! I'm only at about 10 months. (Though over there on the D/D board there are some people who are WAY ahead of me. I hope not to exceed their record, but I have these stupid principles too, and one is to stay celibate until when/if I ever remarry. I didn't do that the first time and we all know what happened to that marriage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )

LL

Well bless my soul, LL. I'm not planning on celibacy until I'm remarried. I'm definitely going to adjust my deadline too. Too far away, much too far. I'll have to think on that over the long weekend...

GC

Yeah, I think I'm the only one left on this earth who thinks it's a smart idea to wait until marriage... My thinking is that if the person loves me enough to be worth marrying, they'll love me enough to wait. (Of course I actually have to get a life someday and find someone who even shows interest first, or it's sort of a moot point.)

But it can get depressing sometimes when I realize there's a fair chance I will never remarry. And being, uh, "without" for the next, say, 40 years of my life is a little overwhelming to think about. (Heck, 10 months has been a little tough at times. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

One day at a time...

LL

You aren't the only person left LL

Noodle<----

I'm thankful for lots of things, but one of the things is for a day of leisure, spent with my family, and the time it gave me to talk about things with my family and reflect on where my life is today.

One of my cousins, a now-divorced BS, and his son, joined us. We didn't discuss my situation at all. Not the day for that stuff. When he left, he gave me a few words of encouragement and a hug.

Later, when it was just my family, we did talk about things a little.

As I've written recently, the sparrow is taking things very slowly.

Letting the D proceed slowly allows the sparrow to spread her consequences out over as long a time as she likes.

Meanwhile, at no cost to her, the equity in our house, half of which I'm going to have to give her in order to buy her out, increases.

I need a roommate to get my budget into the black and keep my house. This requires some significant improvements on the house, but I can't do them until the sparrow is no longer able to benefit financially from them.

So I'm stuck on that practical level.

And I'm also stuck personally, not free to move on, because I've told her (PBL and over the phone) that I don't want to be divorced, and that I want to reconcile. And in person, I told her I would accept no responsibility for the end of our marriage.

I'm still an ace in the hole if things don't work out with OM. I've said, in effect, you finish that old business, and I will be here waiting for you.

When I plan-Bed her over the phone, she was traumatized. She was crying hard, could hardly talk at the end.

But she still hasn't lost me, and she knows it.

She can carry on with OM, see how it plays out, drag out the divorce as much as she wants, gain financially from her ownership of the house she has abandoned, and live what appears to be a rather carefree life.

Meanwhile, I go further into debt, accrue more legal costs, and at the end of each month struggle to come up with my house payment.

OM and car4love won't be in court until MAY 2005. What's the use of the sparrow being divorced before then? She has everything to gain by waiting.

I have everything to lose by allowing it to drag out.

If things don't get moving soon, I think I'm going to have to file.

How can I do this without breaking my word?

And if I can find a way to do it on that personal level, when should I do it - on the slim chance that it scares the sparrow straight?

I was thinking...

Maybe if things are still going nowhere when car4love has her child... I should file.

I'm prepared for that to accelerate the end of my M.

I just don't know...

I have plenty of time to think on this, but I need a plan.

Just letting her divorce me at whatever pace makes it easiest is not going to work.

I think I may need to force her to deal with her choices all at once. She's copping out.

And I can't afford it.

And if it's going to happen anyway... I want to be free.

???

GC

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud:
<strong> If things don't get moving soon, I think I'm going to have to file.

How can I do this without breaking my word? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She can break your heart over and over, but you can't break your word? Not meant to criticize as I do understand - I'm the same way. And have agonized over having given my word, only to find out it was at my own expense later on. However, here's a thought for you that worked for me in my current situation. I had told my H I would share the cost of fixing the deck back when he told me he was doing it so "we" could refinance the house, at which time "we" would get some extra $$ out of it as well. When he tried to collect the $$ for the deck a few weeks ago, I said no, because he had soliticed the offer under false pretenses - that WE would be living here and sharing our $$ and lives together. He knew at the time that he was telling a lie (he had admitted that previously) and I had no way of knowing when I made the offer that I was going to NEED all my cash because "we" were not refinancing after all: "he" was doing it by himself for himself.

So, maybe the "rules" have changed for you too - maybe you gave your word under a different situation than you are in now, and therefore maybe you are not morally bound to keep your word.

Here's another scenario for you: what if she starts doing something dangerous that could jeopardize your joint assets? Would you be bound by your word then? Somewhere there is a line that you CAN cross and live with yourself - maybe you can find that line.

Good luck - I feel for you, and hope I don't find myself having to make the same decision a few months from now, as I have also made similar promises to the ones you made.

RATS!!

The Thanksgiving cyberbug ate my reply!! I hate when that happens.

GC, one thing I have learned about you as we write on this forum is that you have pretty solid judgement and wisdom. I have faith in you to decide when it is right for you to file or not file. You do know...

But let me share something with you. As you know, I was also a BS, and I had NO DESIRE WHATSOEVER to D my H or end our M. However, like your sparrow, he hardened his heart and was determined to continue in his cheating ways. One big turning point came for me when I discovered his 13th and final A in our M. I was CRUSHED, but this time I wasn't so much crushed because I couldn't trust HIM--I was crushed because I knew that if I made excuses again, I couldn't trust ME to protect myself. He was being consistent in his choices to keep cheating. I was not being consistent in guarding my own heart, and I was allowing my own boundaries to be trampled.

I believe that day will come for you too. The day when you just KNOW in your heart that if you do not make some kind of move to protect your own self, you will be a willing accomplice in harming yourself.

Another big turning point for me was when my WS and I were separated--he was becoming more and more and more abusive and scary, and there was absolutely no hope in sight of him admitting that he had a problem, or that he had to work on his own issues. He just was not willing to see his own responsibility, and what he was no longer able to ignore, he refused to work on!

In my M, I was the one who filed...me. The faithful one. The one who believed in M until death do us part. In some/many ways, I do still love my exH for the vows I took with him. BUT, when I was no longer able to believe MYSELF...when I was becoming afraid of his rages and abuse...when it was no longer possible to hope that he might admit his issues AND work on them so that we could be in a mutual relationship...

...I decided to file.

When you reach that point, and you know it is the right decision, you feel serenity about your decision. It does hurt, and you do feel sad because you are losing something, but underneath it all is this KNOWING that you have to do it--sort of like still peaceful waters. You may second-guess, but part of you will know that it was the best thing you could do to save yourself.

GC, you will struggle with this. You will grapple with angels over this. You will remember moments that are your turning points. And when it is time to file, you will know you are released and feel some serenity.


CJ

Wow, thanks, CJ.

I have to say... there's another thought banging around in my head.

The way my W has gone about this is perfect conflict-avoiding stuff. Each time since July that she's seen me, something has inspired her to take steps toward the D. Since I was doing a pretty spotless plan A at those times, I have to imagine she felt guilty and pushed things so she could get closer to having it all over with.

She cried when I put her in plan B on the phone.

But since I did that, other than coming to the garage to pick things up a couple of times, she's taken no steps.

I think she feels too guilty to do everything at once, and needs to build up strength and motivation for each new thing. So this thought banging around is that maybe, maybe, if there's to be any hope for a reconciliation, it will require me to first push her away even harder, to force her to deal with her decision at a speed determined by the legal system, rather than this leisurely, forgiving pace.

I'll take my time with it though. I think I'll resist doing anything until car4love has her baby. Maybe things will change by then. The affair is just reaching the six-month mark. Who knows what could happen?

That's the sliver of hope I still have, I guess, even though I don't know any more if I want to suffer through reconciliation.

I may be going through a change, and I'm just in the middle of it right now and not ready to act on it yet.

Say, CJ, how is it again that I can sign up for an XMas card?

GC

Haha! GC, you are a cutie!

Email your address to: faithfulwifecj@yahoo.com
I will then send my addy to you, as turn about is fair play. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I can not speak on your behalf or sparrow's behalf--which is partially why I have grown to trust you. You have good instincts and pretty clear judgement for someone who's right in the midst of all this! HOWEVER, I can speak for my experience and what I have learned about myself and my exH.

It seems to me that my exH and your sparrow appear to have some things in common. My exH's mantra in life is "If you ignore it, it will go away." He rarely if ever faces anything that he is afraid of; nor does her rarely look at himself for issues or take personal responsibility. Often, when I talk to him, I feel as if he doesn't even see ME at all--he's just talking to a mirror and I'm in the room to hear it.

Can you say "Passive-Agressive Conflict Avoider?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

When the fecal matter has hit the oscelator, he has ALWAYS run away...ALWAYS (and I do not use that word lightly). When he runs, he does not choose to inspect introspectively on his contribution to the running--he looks to others for his happiness and pleasure, he blames others for his own faults, and he can not see it at all.

In many ways, my exH is very, very consistent. He consistently chose to turn to OW rather than turning to me. He consistently chose to harm me and his own children rather than feel any pain or discomfort. He consistently chose to play the victim. Etc., etc. He was CONSISTENT. The only thing that was missing was that I did not see how he was actually dancing the same old dance. I kept HOPING he would change...hoping he meant it this time...seeing change that wasn't there... To this day, he is still very consistent in how he treats me (see my thread about "reminders why we are not together") and the choices he makes.

BUT a big, huge part of me now understands that, I think. He really can not do otherwise because he does not have the tools to do anything other than what he knows. He is too afraid to face himself and be honest with himself. He does not want to learn tools that would help him behave differently because that would mean admitting that he might have been wrong. Things occurred in his life that stunted him emotionally so that he does not have the skills or vocabulary to be able to change. He is stuck. And I suspect that some very small part of him knows that he is stuck in a self-destructive pattern, but he can not bring himself to face what he really fears: himself.

I highly and strongly suspect that sparrow is similarly constructly. Something happened along the way in her makeup that stunted her, and she just can not face herself. To do so would mean some sort of destruction of her very identity of herself, and then she REALLY would be lost.

So, they run. They ignore things that they need to attend to, blame others for not attending to it, play the victim and cry out that no one loves them, and all the while they harm themselves. I think of sparrow sort of like I think of my exH...I don't hate her, but I feel sad that she is wounded. I don't think she has it in her to face that she destroyed a M, and for her to file for D, she would have to face that. She would have to face what she is losing (emotionally and financially), and she can not do that. She would have to face that she had a part in it. She would have to face the one she betrayed, and on some level she does know that she betrayed you.

Nope. Much easier to "ignore it, and it will go away." Much easier to pretend it didn't exist and pretend she is happy with this guy--who of course can never bring her happiness because she is not happy within. Much easier to run away and face it only when you "make her"--and then cry victim on top of it all. Much easier to blame you for ending the M than to face that her actions killed it. Avoid-avoid-avoid. Deny-deny-deny.

It must be weird to live in that fake world.


CJ