I've always thought it was strange people get depressed during the holidays. I never believed I had such a special attachment to this time of year, and figured my feelings would stay more or less the same, here at year's end.

So what happened in the grocery store today? One second I'm taking a bottle of milk from the cooler, the next second... tears. What the hell? I haven't cried since my birthday.

Maybe it was the cards.

This attachment should go away. It has no business in me any more.

I say, Let her go, but I don't listen.

GC

Was worried about that.........Is why the box is on it's way.

I know we can't take those feelings away, but we can help you get through them.

There are lots of people out in the world that care about Graycloud, and how he is.

We're with you, I hope you feel it.

SS

Gray,

Holidays are huge triggers. Not just of what is going on in our present life, but of everything that has gone on in the past.

If they were stressful or sad as a child (parents stressed out or fighting) the triggers are just under the surface as adults.

If our security/happiness has been shaken then that compounds it.

I see people act like total emotional, irrational fools around holiday time, and I know that holidays hold a great deal of emotional strife left over from childhood for them.

Couple that with a marriage in trouble or being alone and they just aren't that much fun.

I miss my parents but I really don't miss the get togethers with my parents when all my brothers and sisters would come. So much leftover baggage from childhood especially the sibbling stuff... fireworks for us at every single holiday gathering.

Now I relish small get togethers with a friend or two and my daughter. That's all I need for a really nice holiday.

I think the cards were a very thoughtful gesture Gray. And yes it might make some nervous but it might ease some pain for those who feel terrible about the way things are now, and who miss you.

I love my BIL whom my older sister is about to divorce, and he loves all of us. My heart breaks that he is going through this. Last time I went down to their house he told me that I would always be a sister to him, I know he means it as do I. You are not only losing a family Gray, they are losing a son, brother and a friend. Heartbreaking for all.

Triggers!

My brother is my accountant. We just looked at my tax situation, sort of ballparked it. There is a chance (have to do the taxes for real to know for sure) that I'll owe the IRS much more than I can afford, in which case I'll have to give up the house.

I love this place. I love my neighborhood. I've invested enormous energy and hope in my home since moving in 1 1/2 years ago, and it's another part of my life that may go up in smoke.

Since I can't do a whole lot to change the circumstances, I have to accept whatever happens, try to navigate the transition, and find something positive in it.

Naturally I've thought about this before, but today I faced the possibility for real.

It's valuable, learning to face big changes and let go of attachments and view the losses of them as new beginnings with new possibilities.

GC

Found some info on No fault and Fault:

What is a "no fault" divorce?

"No fault" divorce describes any divorce where the spouse suing for divorce does not have to prove that the other spouse did something wrong. All states allow divorces regardless of who is at "fault."

To get a no fault divorce, one spouse must simply state a reason recognized by the state. In most states, it's enough to declare that the couple cannot get along (this reason goes by such names as "incompatibility," "irreconcilable differences," or "irremediable breakdown of the marriage").

In nearly a dozen states, however, the couple must live apart for a period of months or even years in order to obtain a no fault divorce.


What is a "fault" divorce?

A fault divorce may be granted when the proper grounds for divorce are present and at least one spouse files for it.

The traditional fault grounds are:

* cruelty (inflicting unnecessary emotional or physical pain) -- this is the most frequently used ground for divorce
* adultery
* desertion for a specified length of time
* confinement in prison for a set number of years, and
* physical inability to engage in sexual intercourse, if it was not disclosed before marriage.

Why choose a fault divorce? Some people don't want to wait out the period of separation required by their state's law for a no fault divorce. And in some states, a spouse who proves the other's fault may receive a greater share of the marital property or more alimony.


Do all states allow a "fault" divorce?

No, 15 states offer no fault divorce only. This means that a no fault divorce is the only option even when there has been substantial wrongdoing.

The other states allow a spouse to select either a no fault divorce or a fault divorce. For more information, see What type of divorce is allowed in each state?


Grounds for Divorce by State

State Fault grounds No-fault grounds Separation required? Length of separation
Alabama • • • 2 years
Alaska • •
Arizona •
Arkansas • • 18 months
California •
Colorado •
Connecticut • • •1 18 months
Delaware • •
District of Columbia • 6 months
Florida •
Georgia • •
Hawaii • • 2 years
Idaho • • • 5 years
Illinois • •2 •2 2 years
Indiana •
Iowa •
Kansas •
Kentucky •
Louisiana • • 180 days
Maine • •
Maryland • • 1 year
Massachusetts • •
Michigan •
Minnesota • • 180 days
Mississippi • •
Missouri •
Montana •
Nebraska •
Nevada • • 1 year
New Hampshire • •
New Jersey • • 18 months
New Mexico • •
New York • • 1 year
North Carolina • • 1 year
North Dakota • •
Ohio • •3 • 1 year
Oklahoma • •
Oregon •
Pennsylvania • • • 2 years
Rhode Island • • • 3 years
South Carolina • • 1 year
South Dakota • •
Tennessee • • •4 2 years
Texas • • • 3 years
Utah • • • 3 years
Vermont • • 6 months
Virginia • •5 1 year
Washington •
West Virginia • • • 1 year
Wisconsin •
Wyoming •
1Separation-based divorce must also allege incompatibility.
2Must allege irretrievable breakdown and separation for no-fault; if both parties consent, two years may be reduced to six months.
3Divorce will be denied if one party contests ground of incompatibility.
4Separation-based divorce allowed only if there are no children.
5May be reduced to six months if there are no children.

GC: Some time ago (Penny's party?) I told you I would post a link to the Separation & Divorce care group that meets at Grace Church of Eden Prairie. The short description page link, with links to directions, phone numbers for more information, and a link to the registration page is: Here. I've met the people involved in leading these classes, and they're great.

GC,

No real words of wisdom to add tonight...I was just thinking of you and wanted you to know.

Re: tears in the grocery store...I've been separated for two years on Dec. 9th and divorced for 1 1/2 years, and I still get vaklempt (a lovely Jewish word that means "choked up with teary eyes) at the strangest moments. For no apparent reason I'll see something and just have a wash of tears--for example, I was flipping through the cable channels and briefly stopped at an Oak Ridge Boys Holiday Special, and they were singing a holiday love song, so I flipped to the next channel. While I watched Emeril cook, I cried because I wish I had someone to sing me a holiday love song. So...sausage bread was soggy.

Dude, it just happens. I don't even LIKE the Oak Ridge Boys!

***
Re: losing your house. This is a little meatier. When my exH and I split up, we had a 3000sqft. house with pool, hottub, the works! He left to live in the hotels with his internet GFs and OW, and the kids and I stayed in a house we couldn't quite afford. Eventually we agreed to sell the house, and I came to terms with losing our family houme. It felt like losing YET ANOTHER THING I LOVED, but some very good things came of it.

First, the kids and I decided TOGETHER that we would all have a voice in where we wanted to live, so for once in our lives, we were making the decision! That was empowering.

Second, we brainstormed ideas of what was important to us and what wasn't...things we wanted and things we didn't care about...what was a deal-breaker, very important, and "forgetaboutit". Our list ended up like this: we wanted to stay in our hometown; the kids wanted to be near their schools and near their dad; deal-breaker: must take our pets 'cuz we had already lost enough; we'd like a swimming pool; deal-breaker: had to be affordable; we had to all three agree on it; we'd each like our own bedroom (teenagers need their own space); and YD got first pick of bedrooms since she had the smallest bedroom in the old house.

Well...we started looking for places that might fit our list. We tried a couple spots and didn't like them (bad neighborhood, too expensive, no kids, etc.)...and then we found our townhome we're in now. It had all of our major requirements and all of our "we hope it has this"--plus I could AFFORD IT!! The day we moved, I felt like I had been cheated out of a house, but within a very short time the new townhouse became SO MUCH BETTER than the old house. Now, it's not even close! About a month or two after we got here, I realized that I COULD DECORATE IT MY WAY! I got to use colors and stuff "I" liked!! That was exciting.

Long story short, I realize it will feel like a loss if you have to lose your home that you love, but take heart, GC. It could be a wonderful, new place that is better than you could imagine...YOUR place...with only GC energy in it.

Take heart!


CJ

Thank you, C.J. It's true, I'll have to find a bright spot in whatever happens with the house.

Met w/my IC today, who was trying to convince me that I'm being more accommodating to my anger now. True enough.

We talked about WS not understanding that the cooling of romantic love is natural and normal and not the sign of a marriage in trouble.

We talked about forgiveness. I said that I can't forgive somebody who is not remorseful for what they've done. We agreed that there are different levels of forgiveness.

There's the kind of forgiving that might make you feel good, but lets someone off the hook while they continue to hurt you. This kind is easily given and easily taken back.

Then there's the kind where you say "You are not in debt to me for the thing you did, go in peace," and you give it when your wounds are honestly healed and when the other person is honestly ready to receive it.

And finally, there's a third option. If the guilty person will not ask for your forgiveness, but your wounds are healed and your suffering has turned into indifference, I don't think you can truly forgive that person. You simply let what happened be a part of your past and dwell on it no more.

Tonight I went and got a Xmas tree. Got home, opened the garage to get the tree stand, and then discovered that the last time the sparrow went into the garage she helped herself to the stand.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I won't ever have a chance to forgive the sparrow, I expect. Not for real. Too bad.

GC

GC:

Years ago, we made a mistake on our taxes, and deducted stuff that we shouldn't have. Didn't get audited until something like 3 years later, and then they audited us for 2 years in a row! Decided we owed several K that we didn't have (a large sum for us at the time). We met with an IRS lawyer who was ac2ally sympathetic with our sitch - we hadn't deliberately defrauded anybody, just made an honest mistake based on some unclear wording in the tax code.

We still owed the money, but were able to make payments. By the time we'd paid it off - a few years later - we'd paid well over the original amount with interest, but we didn't lose our house or the new car we still had a couple of years 2 pay for.

If you're in a bind, talk 2 someone. They can probably help if you show a willingness 2 do what you can.

-ol' 2long

I will consider that, 2long. It may not be as bad as it first appeared, but we'll have to see.

I can stall on the MTA until I know what my tax situation is. These next few months will be tricky in a way... gotta make the timing of everything work out right.

Until everything happens, she contributes nothing but still gains equity in the house.

Does that seem right to you?

GC

Hi, GC.

Did you have a good day? I personally had a very good day. I don't know if you know what I do for a living, but I'm a retail store manager, and today our store KICKED BUTT!!

However...

My exH was just a [censored] today, and I want to scream! AAAAAAAA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> He is manic right now, is basically pushing everyone out of his life (see my other thread--even the OW!!), and in a nutshell had a fight with our OS and told him that OS was "not worth it" to try to repair the relationship! I just CAN NOT BELIEVE that a parent would ever say that to a child, no matter what mental illness they had!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> again!

So I told exH I was angry with him and did not want to talk to him tonight. I was brief and probably a little snotty, because why in the heck should I speak to this man kindly when he has treated us so worthlessly??

AAAAAAA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I'm so sick of this.

"CJ--why are you telling me this?" you wonder?? I'm telling you because I thought you'd like to hear about my day AND because for some WSs you don't get a chance to "forgive" them because they don't see that they did anything wrong. My exH thinks that OUR SON should apologize to him!! Anyway, I am angry with him, but I forgive him in the sense that it will do me harm to hold onto it, so I let it go. You missed that forgiveness in your post: the forgiveness that you give to the one who harmed you because it is good for you, not because they receive it.


CJ

There is a fourth choice Gray (to forgiveness). Do you remember the prayer that Jesus taught us to pray ?

Part of if goes like this -

"forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors"

Not to be confused with your first choice listed - There's the kind of forgiving that might make you feel good, but lets someone off the hook while they continue to hurt you. This kind is easily given and easily taken back.

I don't really know what that first choice is supposed to mean, but forgiveness is about allowing that we are all human, we all make choices that sometimes hurts another, and we all have the capacity for huge selfishness but we forgive because Jesus asked that we love one another (and to love is to forgive). And that is the same way that The Dalai Lama would have us live, so that our path home (to love) is shorter and easier.

I am still angry sometimes for the way my ex hurt me, lied to me, took away my choice to not go out with a MM and left me more battered and bruised emotionally than I already was - but do I forgive him? Yes, of course. Will I ever forget the pain and allow him back into my life? Probably not.

It would hurt me a lot more if I carried around a lot of bitterness though.

I forgive him because God forgives me, even when I do not ask for it. Even when I am not fulfilling His desire for me, which is most of the time. Even when I hurt another.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like how sparrow and OM have hurt you and car4love, in fact it makes me sick to think of car4love's pain, but we must forgive them, because they are after all only human, "and know not what they do".

I hope you find peace soon Gray, it breaks my heart to know what you have gone through without really even a chance to make it work with sparrow. I think that is probably what hurts you most is the way it all happened so quickly. No chance to go through the stages and slowly lose your love so that the breakup would have at least partially been your choice.

Hope some of what I said makes sense Gray.

thinking of you GC, hope you are staying warm. maybe when you go back and read the post about the tree stand you'll laugh about it. because that's just how it is, these WS's make no sense and just continue to think only about themselves. my STBXH had taken the laundry baskets when I went to florida last, I was really ticked because I wanted them. Well I told him I wanted them back along with a couple of other items he took without asking.

anyway, i'm actually wondering what i'm going to do about taxes myself. i haven't changed anything with my exemptions yet. i figured i would file the 2004 taxes married but separate (isn't that a choice?). Does that sound okay or does anyone else have a suggestion? I'll be changing the exemptions after the new year.

Glad you got a tree and are continuing to make the best of the situation that you are forced to react to. God Bless, RR

Thanks y'all. Now here's something really funny.

I just received a letter, forwarded to me by my attorney, that she received from the sparrow's lawyer.

The letter, dated 12/15 is mainly an urging - "Please respond quickly to the 11/30 letter, so we can get these two divorced before the end of the year."

Is there a planet where you can get divorced in two weeks? I suggest she move to it.

The letter also includes a list of items the sparrow demands from me, including a couple of things I've already refused her, as well as a bunch of new items.

The girl is off her rocker. Two weeks? During the holidays? Yeah right! And Merry Christmas to you too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

GC

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

But what if you do want it to be over in 2 weeks (see me email)?

I know that's not your point, again, as I said before these WS make no sense. I sure hope your lawyer is working for YOU in all of this.

{{{{{{{{{{{{GC}}}}}}}}}}}

Think of your happy place (from Happy Gilmore).
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> RR

Regarding all the forgiveness talk...

When I say I'm not sure I'll be able to forgive the sparrow for what she's done, I don't mean this as a bitter and belligerent statement that "I'll never forgive her!" I can let go of my anger and pain and all that. Shoot, in a year or two or five this will all be turning into a bad memory, and I don't plan to grind the axe. I'm just not sure about the forgiveness part. Until I have more distance, it will be tough to get the right perspective for that one.

I have to admit, giving my anger a voice is good for me, but also a dangerous business, because it puts me awfully close to reacting angrily to circumstances, which in the end only troubles my soul.

Like the Xmas tree stand business, for instance. It was a very "grinchy" thing for the sparrow to do, grabbing that on her way out. I had to run around a bit and spend a few bucks to replace what she took. It was annoying. But really, who cares? Looking for opportunities to get pi$$ed off is too easy, and a waste.

GC

Gray said:
Looking for opportunities to get pi$$ed off is too easy, and a waste.

Yes sir, and there are soooooo many opportunities that you don't even look for, there is no reason at all to look even a little bit.

What does UPS say, wheres the box now?
How can two turnips weigh 6 lbs?

How's the smile today?
You doin anything fun tonight?

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud:
<strong> Until everything happens, she contributes nothing but still gains equity in the house.

Does that seem right to you? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO it does not. You should be able to get an appraisal as of the point in time she moved out and use that as the basis for each of your equities in the house. I don't know how courts would rule on this - I do know this is what my H and I are doing, by our agreement. But it seems like a reasonable request even if it had to be decided by a judge.

On another note, any progress in keeping your house? I am now moved into my new house and LOVE it here. I certainly hope you can keep your house as well - it is nice to have a place to call home when all else is going by the wayside.

I do not think you want to D this year - if you do, you suddenly would have a higher single tax rate, wouldn't you? Do you know what her reasoning is? It doesn't make sense to me.

Take care!

SS, a friend visiting from CA and a friend from my work are coming over tonight.

Smile intact.

DV, I mentioned a retroactive appraisal to my attorney, and she said there would be no help there if it went to court. I had an appraisal done in September. We'll be submitting that to the other side next week.

There is no earthly way the divorce will be done in the next 9 days. It's a complete fantasy. My lawyer is not sure what the sudden urgency is all about. Tax purposes, they say, but that seems overblown. Maybe the sparrow wants it done before the baby is born. Who knows?

GC

SS, the package will arrive tomorrow. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

GC