Sorry, GC. I didn't think you would trust her enough to do that but wanted to be sure what your motives are. I don't think sparrow will get it, I really don't. If she did she would have figured out by now how her actions have hurt you. I am glad you have this forum to vent. You are a very special man, GC and I just pray for the day that this is over for you. {{GC}}

It's official. The tin god is here.

GC

Gray,

I have told RAP a few times how personal all this is. Know what I got?

"I know. And I'm sorry."

Know what else? It doesn't help. She DOESN'T know. Because I would not ever put her through the pain I was put through. And her apologies are just words.

No remorse. No change of behavior. Nothing.

The expectation that sparrow will realize what she has done is not going to come from anything you say or do. It will only come when she realizes from experiencing it what she gave up (you).

And sadly, the "new love jitters" take a few years to get through.

Move on. There is a time to move on. It is now.

NCWalker

(PS - I've seen your picture. You'll do fine. Go find someone to love you.)

Woops. That sounded a little strange.

What I meant to say was..

"If you were talking to my wife, I would be jealous."

Manly hug. And I mean MANLY. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

NCW

NC, ya big lug. Haven't heard much from you in a while, except what state you're traveling through.

Everything I've written here, everything car4love and I have emailed about privately since last June... all of it has been read.

How can these people do these things to us?

I'm sorry if that sounds naive and stupid.

GC

My dear friend Gray,

What have they done to you. WHAT. Read what you wrote?

Ya know, I keep a journal. And there are some private things in there. There is some pain. And if ANYONE found it and read it, I would probably be embarassed. But I would NOT be ashamed. Why?

I own my mistakes.

I try and be as honest as I can.

And I am not ashamed of who I am.
======

Gray, I would say the SAME about you.

So they saw some of your pain. At least you have feelings.

So they saw you being weak. It takes a strong man to know where his weaknesses are.

So they saw your hurt. They will also see you recover and be stronger for it.

At first glance, it may feel invasive. But WHAT DID THEY REALLY GAIN? What harm did it really do you?

Maybe they are lying together snickering like little children about you. A hurtful image, but an image only. In no way does it detract from who you are. Fact is, only they look foolish.

Gray, she/they saw YOU. And in the end, what else would you have the sparrow see?

NOT you, but choose to be with you? No. Better she really see you and you get an HONEST response. Who would want to lie to their spouse and make them happy by not being true to oneself?

Not me. Been there, done that, didn't like myself.

My issue with RAP is that I won't stay married when she cheats on me. Your issue with the sparrow is the same.

And what is their issue with us? They don't like who we are? Sure, it is couched in phrases and complaints. But we were good to them.

No. I think it is that they don't like what they see in themselves next to us.

We have talked and I know what your relationship with the Sparrow was like. I had the SAME with RAP. THE SAME. But brother, you have to live with YOU.

There is NO SHAME in who you are. In your good moments AND bad.

So they saw it. And they saw honesty. Even when we rant on here, it is an honest picture of how we feel.

If she doesn't love a Graycloud who isn't afraid to be HONEST, do you really WANT her?

Ask the WS's on here who come to their senses. They have a vast appreciation for the stoicism of their FS's who remained true. Yours and mine have chosen a different path.

But it is the path WE choose that defines us, not theirs.

NCWalker

well said, ncw.

I'd love it if my W were 2 read my stuff. I've offered 2 show it 2 her, but until she's interested, it won't mean anything anyway.

besides, she'd have 2 sort through several thousand posts!

Let 'em read.

-ol' 2long

You're on FIRE tonight, NCW.

I'm not ashamed of anything in my emails or in this thread. Many times I wondered whether the APs would, given the chance, invade my privacy in this way. I knew the possibility was there, and I put things here anyway.

They've proven my mistrust of them to be sensible. I just wasn't paranoid enough to protect myself from them.

There are things I wrote in both places that I know I'll be judged unfairly for, and conversations about things I wouldn't do again, given the chance. My life was in a crisis. My whole world was getting ripped apart, and I wanted to try to save it.

It's incredible. These people can cheat and betray us and plot against us and do everything in their power to injure us, and we're villains for discussing ways to convince them to stop.

NCW, thanks for your kind words. I'm not ashamed of who I am, and I'm not afraid of the truth. I have nothing to hide.

I'm still not happy. Things car4love and I wrote are being used against her in the most dishonest and malicious way, and the person using them doesn't have the right to have ever seen them.

GC

Today I found out from my accountant that if our divorce decree stated that H was to use his IRA to pay me off, he could have avoided paying any penalities. This suggests it might be a way for you to pay her off without losing the house - not a good way, but a way none-the-less.

If you go this way, make sure the IRS and legalese are covered properly. We didn't do it that way, so now my H has big penalties to pay. And here I thought he was not paying any price for this at all!

Gray - read what NCWalker wrote. What's with that? Don't they have a life?

Seems they have no life other than tracking you. When that little "project" is over, what will they have left between them? When the crisis passes, they will have had only one pattern established for their R - and it involved espionage and deception.

GC, everyone is right, what on earth do they gain from reading anything? As deja vu said, don't they have a life??

Geez, they're pathetic. And I'm not you, so they can read that if they like.

{{{{Gray}}}}

Jen

If they are using what was posted against you or car4love in a malicious way and it is standing up in court, I would say the judge needs to have his/her head examined. Not that that will do any good.

But really. It is pretty obvious that this is a marriage building site. There are a whole slew of sites on divorce advice.

If they did do that and it gave them some advantage, at best I would say it is unfortunate. But those kinds of things have a way of catching up to you, KWIM? Call it karma, God's justice, whatever. It WILL catch up with them.

NCW

Well, y'all, I can't keep up. And I don't know what to write. Thank you.

Worse things have happened. It's just sort of horrible. I was guilty of a little subterfuge in the heaviest time of crisis. To hear everybody talk about how wonderful and honest I am, you should know, I did a few sneaky things to help car4love, and to try to get the APs to stop. Nothing nasty. But I was not always honest. It wasn't the best way to deal with things. It was a bad time.

One thing I never did though, was intentionally hurt anyone.

GC

Did you do sneaky things or did you do things that exposed their affair?

Those are two different items.

Oh, and since everything that's being written here is being read by the opposing side, then I say "Welcome, everyone! Thanks so much for coming to visit. Please, send me e-mail. I'd love to hear from you. I'm not kidding -- I'd really like to know how you guys are doing."

GC, we're not setting you up for sainthood. Don't sweat it. Anything you did back then was at the height of your emotions and nothing, nothing is as bad as what they're doing.

Jen

J, it was almost entirely affair exposure.

Let's put all that to bed. It isn't a big deal. I'm glad it's all out in the open, but I don't like the way it got there.

Since I have an audience, my anonymity here is sort of lost. Certainly I'll continue to write honestly about this experience, but it feels a little like a performance.

I'm no longer enjoying the protection that plan B was supposed to give me. I'm letting too much information in, and my own D is too hairy. Everything still hurts, too. Stupid, still being vulnerable to it after a year of this. I should be a tough, cold, hard S.O.B. by now. But I know of many others who feel the same after a similar stretch has gone by, so it isn't unusual.

Takes a long time, healing from an amputation.

GC

You're right Gray.

It's gone.

Oh, weaver. Remember... you're as big a fan of HHDLXIV as I am.

Your enemy is your brother, and can be among your greatest teachers.

GC

Sometimes it's hard to start these up.

How do you help when there is nothing that will help - except maybe time.

I don't know if this quote will help or not.

7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee eexperience, and shall be for thy good.
D&C 122:7

Maybe it sounds trite, or mushy - I hope you don't think I am not listening, or that I would discount your feelings.

It's just that..........It's just that I want to see you look to the future now, and find some measure of joy.

Do you think it's time?

Are you up for it?

Do you believe in yourself?


I have met you, and if I had to make a judgement call, I would BET ON YOU.

SS

Hmmm. Okay, since we're talking about legal issues, I want to know whether you've broken any law of your state by exposing the affair. Is it libel, defamation, or harassment? Will charges be filed? Will you have to defend yourself against these actions?

If not, then as far as I'm concerned, there is not really anything you need to worry about.