Weaves, I am terribly sorry for bringing up the living-with-your-parents topic the other night. I had no idea you went through so much. How heartbreaking.

FF, What happened with your ER docs?

I have my own reasons for hating our local ER docs but none of them come close to what you guys have suffered.

Weaves, bay, I mailed you before I saw all this.\\slh

FF, in your case it might be what caused a breakdown in your family. For both you and casey. I am so very glad you two are together again!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

AD, you are quite the guy, most would have just given up on the complexity of flower giving in your home. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Only Csue understands the flower thing, and that is enough for me.

So subject closed, until I get some wierd freaky card that says, "from your secret admirer, closer now", then we can re-open the discussion, after I go to the police that is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

>....and yes, her motivation was to make the husband jealous so he would pay more attention to his wife! Sheesh!!


I hate stupid bs games like this. Who knows truly what kind of home life the couple had...it could've ended very badly. ERG!

> do carnations on regular week days,

Sunflowers, and daisies....they're the HAPPIEST flowers.

weaver:

I'd forgotten the details. I'm so sorry.

FF:

Yep. Saw them! Beautiful! Did you see the pics from my DDs wedding in March? email me at **edit** if not, and you'd like 2.

ER stories:

I was on jury duty a few years back on a malpractice lawsuit. I've been on jury duty a number of times (they seem 2 know that where I work they've got a pool of several thousand "trolls" from which 2 draw). This was by far the least pleasant experience of them all. 15 days, 10 of which were hearing the case. We ended up having 2 decide what a grandmother's time was worth, in dollars, 2 her grandkids if she'd lived 5 more years, assuming a certain number of hours a week, dollars per hour... I hated that part most of all.

-ol' 2long

Squidges Weaver and Faith.

Love you both.

AD:

"I learned in Russian class (or somewhere), that you give even numbers of flowers for the dead and odd number of flowers to living people. So, being an engineer, I thought on this problem."

When I build telescopes with wooden tubes, I like using odd numbers of sides. That way, there's a ridge opposite a face. I'm just funny that way. I think starfish would be less "artful" if they had 4 legs... ...or 6.

I ac2ally made a couple of 12-sided 2bes for telescopes that I sold a long time ago. 2 many cuts on the table saw, though. 6 or 8 is another popular number, but the corners are 2 sharp for me, and most mirror cells have 3 support arms, so a multiple of 3 sounded good. The 2 faceted-2be scopes I still have both have 9 sides (a "nonogon", really!). First one I made out of Indian Rosewood when you could still buy the stuff in the US. 2nd is Teak.

this is important... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

JustJ, You still have things on your mind. Is it normal stuff? Or is it the future, and all the things you still continue to wonder about?

It’s the future, Still Seeking. The future, my place in it, what I’m doing, whether I’m really doing ethical things. It’s hard to tell sometimes. Really hard.

These days, it’s compounded by coming to the realization that I need to deal with some things that have affected me since I was a teenager. Primary infertility at that age is very rare – and the few of us who are affected by it seem to have a fairly standard reaction. Acting out sexually, internalizing a lot of yucky “I’m permanently broken” stuff, various other things. I thought I had worked it through, and most of it I have. There is one area where I haven’t. I haven’t dealt with it in the context of wanting a long-term, permanent marriage (with lots of kids) with a man. I find that I think that I can’t have that because my ovaries don’t work. In a lot of ways, that makes completely perfect sense. In a lot of other ways, it doesn’t. Either way, I guess it’s time to figure out whether I can ever feel as though I’ve healed those wounds.

How is the garden, SS? Tomatoes coming along well?

JJ, I wrote you this loooooong reply and my H erased it by accident went doing something on my computer. I will try to write more later -- please don't think I didn't respond. dang technology. Can't live with it. . .

SLH, I understand. Technology is a blessing when it works, and a curse when it fails us. I’m writing this in Word, myself, for fear of doing something similar. I’m tired tonight and in something of a melancholy mood, and I tend to allow my moods to affect the care with which I treat things like the “close” button on browser windows.

No more chandelier nights!

I had to chuckle at this in spite of the melancholy. I hope you –do- have a chance to swing from the lights, wherever you are.

2Long, you dirty old man. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

GC, is it possible that there’s something else you’re grieving? It’s hard to separate out grief into nice little piles. It tends to run together into one big pile.

And…. Another thought. Sometimes emotions hang around for a really long time when they’re taking the place of a more accurate emotion. Depression, for example, is anger turned inward. It hangs around because it’s not motivating you to do the thing that you need to do.

Then again, I’m not really one to talk. I’m not depressed, but it’s still two years later and I still stand in my house sometimes and just stare into space and wonder where the hell the love of my life went. I hate myself for still feeling that way. But you know? It’s true. I remember vividly the first time I really looked at my ex, from across a crowded room where we were doing our classical mechanics problem sets. (Yes, I know, we’re geeks.) The image of her tiny, perfect, elfin face is still crystal clear. The green sweater she was wearing, the big heavy Midwestern overcoat of some indeterminate color. Her face was rounder then, still a little baby fat in it. She was 17. I had turned 19 three months before. I asked her that night whether she had considered double-majoring in astronomy and something else. She said no – astronomy was the only thing she was interested in.

Now I’m nearly 38 years old. I remember that conversation like it was yesterday. And a whole host of little details from then, and from every month of every year we were together. Mostly they blur into the past. Mostly they’re irrelevant to me these days. A part of my past. Long dead. As with much of my college experience, a pipe dream. Four years of the best moments of my life, with a lasting effect on my soul and – these days – no effect on the rest of my reality.

It takes a while to get through those moments. It takes a long while. Especially if you take the time, like you and I did, to fight for your marriage rather than diving right into the work of “get over it” that so many people encouraged us to do.

Weaver, please don’t be freaked out by flowers. Really. In some places, there seems to be a tradition of anonymous flower-giving. I don’t exactly know why, but there is. The people I’ve talked to about it think of it much the way someone would think of Santa Claus. The joy is in the gift, not in being known for it. And sometimes, when you’re down, it’s not a bad thing to have the universe manifest flowers for you. Pink roses and white orchids are not a creepy person’s gift, either. That’s a sign of someone who’s just trying to brighten your day. Hurray for you, and hurray for them!

I got anonymous flowers for my birthday in 2003. Big beautiful sunflowers. I really wondered who they were from, and had a lot of fun trying to guess. It took me three days to look at my brother and say, “Hey, did YOU send them?” He laughed for five minutes before admitting that he had. I love my brother. Both of them, in fact, but the other one doesn’t appear in this story.

I also remember sending my ex flowers when she took our daughter to Idaho to “think.” I wanted only to brighten her day. She was furious for, oh, roughly the rest of eternity. Because I was invading her space.

It was not until this week that I finally understood that. I’m taking a class on anger, resentment, blame, and compassion. The class is given by Steven Stosny, who was recently on Oprah for his work to end abuse. It’s absolutely fascinating. In the course of the class, he explained how the emotional states of two people can become entwined enough that one person’s sadness or fear or any other emotion can trigger resentment, blame, guilt, etc. in the other. Those emotions are so hard to deal with, and so intertwined with the first person’s emotions, that it effectively becomes a punishment mechanism for the second person, though the first person may not even know about it. That starts a cycle where the unhappiness leads to resentment which leads to a sense that the other person is punishing them, which isn’t fair, which leads to more resentment, probably negative responses, more hurt and upset… The cycle feeds on itself to the point where even the most benign, positive, and harmless things are upsetting because the person who’s resentful is so angry that they don’t feel worthy to receive a gift – and that just makes them uncomfortable and more pissed off.

It still happens. The text message about our daughter’s experience with the water was a good example. And there were brownies last year, pictures this year. A long list of examples.

I occasionally think, and sometimes even say, that a little courtesy and gratitude would help things. My ex doesn’t listen, of course. Because that, too, is a punishment.

Hopeless? Perhaps not. But certainly very difficult. I’m glad I don’t live in a world where gifts are seen as punishment. It seems like a very sad place indeed.

Weaver,

I had not heard the story of your parents before....what an enormous loss. They had to be young by the sound of it. I simply can't imagine your loss. I am blessed to still have my father; and although it's been 22 years since my mother died, I feel the same as you - envy when I see others my age who still have their mother!

Special Blessings to you!

Csue,

They say one never gets over the loss of their mother, especially if they lose her at a young age like you did. Did you ever see the movie "Beaches" with Bette Midler? It's one of my favorite movies and the part where Bette's best friend who lost her mom frantically looks for a picture of her mother's hands, is just so true.

I am sorry for your loss of your mom too Csue.

JJ,

That is how I feel about Dan. No one wants to hear how I love and miss him, but I do. Probably always will, but I will be happy as will you and Gray. And the depression being anger turned inward is probably right on in Gray's case. The first act of happiness is self-forgiveness, the second is forgiveness of others transgressions against you. Gray has regrets and until he can look at them, disect them and name them, self-forgiveness will not happen.

Gray, I'm worried about you, & I care so much about you. Keep talking about it. It is very important to keep talking about it, and here you are safe to do that. No one will ever tire of hearing about it here.

Hi Kimmy!

JJ:

Me??? A dirty old man???


...yep!

-ol' 2long

Guys!


SS,

To answer your question honestly and I must, I am giving it a year. In that time I will become the best person I can become, and if after a year nothing has changed for me in my personal relationship sitch, I will consider it to have happened for the best.

I don't have his story yet, except what he told me on the phone when I last spoke to him. And I know he loves me. I don't know why I know that but I do. And I know how powerful emotions are, and I know that he was very, very upset over the trip thing. I also know that he is with someone else right now. All of these things I know but I still have hope, and I still believe.

I'm sorry, I hope I am not disappointing you but I am speaking from my heart. And my heart is hanging on, and I trust it. And I also know that I will be happy regardless.

I read this tonight and it seams so true -

"the belief that one's own view of reality is the only reality is the most dangerous of all delusions"

I was asked a question today, in a workbook "if you only had one year to live, how would you spend it?" Well given my choice I would spend it with Paige and Dan. This tells me all I need to know for now.

I believe he will be back, and I am not going to have personal regrets this time around.

2long, this was a very upsetting experience for us as well in our lawsuit. Determining the value of someone's life in dollars, how can you. It's an aboration for sure.

Weaver, thanks for telling that story. I hope it didn't stir up too much sorrow for you.

I have no expectation that I'm going to be resentful forever. Not a chance. I just don't know what this one-sided forgiveness looks like, not yet.

J... you and I, we've walked a few of the same streets, haven't we?

Least important among them... I might portray myself as a cool rock 'n' roll dude, but I'm a pretty big nerd really. Hell, as an undergrad I WAS A PHYSICS MAJOR! For my senior project I built a mechanical device that was a chaos demonstrator. NERD ALERT.

GC

Sorry, Gray. I think that's way cool.

:: shrug ::

But that's just me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Maybe I like Nerds? H sure is one!

slh

>chaos demonstrator

I can do that. Give me an inclosed space, my kids, and a whole bunch of stuff labeled "do not touch or else."

Weaver, yes, spend that year. Because, well, because of the Jim Croce song.

If I could save time in a bottle
The first thing that I’d like to do
Is to save every day
Till eternity passes away
Just to spend them with you

If I could make days last forever
If words could make wishes come true
I’d save every day like a treasure and then,
Again, I would spend them with you

And because if I could spend a year any way I wanted to, it would be with my ex and our daughter.

And no, SS, I’m not falling backward into longing for something I can’t have. Just acknowledging. And also acknowledging that I don’t want her back the way she is now. And I have important things to do with my life that don’t include her. They are, simply, not the things I wanted to do.

Hi, GC. Yeah, I was a physics major too, and so was my ex. It’s a combined physics and astronomy major at Carleton. I only took one astro class. She took more.

And yeah. We’ve walked more than a few of the same roads. And Gray, I think Weaver’s got some good points. I remember when I met you at Penny’s house last fall, I was surprised by how angry you are – and don’t talk about. You might want to talk about it a little. We’re not going to be surprised, you know. We’ve all felt it, too. And I certainly have had a hard time dealing with my own anger, so you’re not going to surprise me there, either.

And hey, if you see car4love and her kids, give her my love, ok? She’s a darned fine person.

Yes, it certainly is!

-AD

J, that surprises me, that I seemed angry.

I'd like to hang out with you under less duress sometime.

Okay then. Yeah, I've been mad as a hornet.

I spend a fair amount of time thinking on it.

I guess the heart of it is that when someone betrays you this way, and then they refuse to hear about your pain, there's such an eradication.

They say, your pain doesn't matter to me. But they also say, the very fact that you suffer says that you are crazy and unreasonable and desperate.

They go a step beyond just saying, "I don't care that you hurt." To ease their guilt, they do something still more damaging. They say, "You have no right to hurt."

My W reduced me to the status of some loser who kept asking her out despite repeated refusals. She took me from being her hero and guardian to being an annoyance, almost overnight.

She didn't just break her promises. She pretended that she'd never made them.

That's the kernel of it, I think.

GC

I agree Weaver that it contributed greatly to the state of our M and family. I am really proud of Casey these days, he finally is accepting our son for the way he is and is no longer angry or ashamed of him. Big strides. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SLH, my DS took ill at age 7 months with encephalitis the pediatrician and the ER docs failed to diagnose for 2 days worth of ER and ped visits. 2nd day they admitted him to the hospital and still failed to treat (now the hospital ped)until he showed full blown encephalopothy symptons, by then severe brain damage. 4 years later we settled out of court. All we wanted was our son to get the care he needs and deserves. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

And why does all that matter?

Because it does. Even though it doesn't.

Wheeeeeee!

GC (is not in a bad way or anything so worry not)