Gray,
Some things, when played loud get to me - the beat, or the lyrics, I dono, but I can only take some things. I like some of Lead Z.

I like the ones that pump you up, not make you want to kill someone.

Spill the beans about this friend.

Faithful,
Can you see a time when he will do his share? Has he before?

I am not worrying, but seeking information.

Do you honestly feel it is only a matter of time, or do you worry about long term?

SS

Pink Floyd, "Echos"

"Overhead the albatross hangs motionless upon the air
And deep beneath the rolling waves in labyrinths of coral caves
The echo of a distant tide
Comes willowing across the sand
And everything is green and submarine

And no one showed us to the land
And no one knows the wheres or whys
But something stirs and
Something tries
And starts to climb towards the light

Strangers passing in the street
By chance two separate glances meet
And I am you and what I see is me
And do I take you by the hand
And lead you through the land
And help me understand the best I can

And no one calls us to move on
And no one forces down our eyes
And no one speaks
And no one tries
And no one flies around the sun

(Total Heaviosity Instrumental Break)

Cloudless every day you fall
Upon my waking eyes
Inviting and inciting me to rise
And through the window in the wall
Comes streaming in on sunlight wings
A million bright ambassadors of morning

And no one sings me lullabies
And no one makes me close my eyes
And so I throw the windows wide
And call to you across the sky."

-ol' 2long

SS, there have been times he has met my needs, not often but enough to give me hope. Not really been one to plan dates but that may be because I used to want to control everything. Yes, to worrying about the future...I think that may always be the case. Or at least until we have a few years of no infidelity under our belts.

BTW, SS are you from my generation? Every one of those songs (except yanni LOL) are oldtime favs of mine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LOL, uh. . . FF? What is "my generation"? Cuz I love all those songs too.

Does this mean we are old? *vbg*

But then again, I also used to listen to Air Supply, Bread, Chicago, the Carpenters. . . Can't listen to most of their songs now.

Was raised on the Beatles and Star Trek with my dad <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

slh

Notice the wink behind Yani - I was teasing Gray.

Thanks 2long. You are a deep guy, and I wonder if your W couldn't handle that once she found out.

SS is a little older than Faithful. I turn 50 this year.
The stuff I listed are things I like to play loud. As you know, music can be used to agument a mood, or to set a mood. If I am feeling slugish, and I have things to do, I play those loud ones to get me going.

If I am in a mellow mood, not in a hurry, I play other things.

I like light jazz, (some of it) and instrumental, I like mellow rock, and classical, and country.

Well, see, I grew up in a small town. It had one radio station, and it played everyting. Country during the afternoon, Rock at night for the kids, Mormon Tabernacle choir on Sunday, and then specialized programs covering the whole spectrum. This was before the "canned" programs of today. So, I like some of everything, except for acid rock, and rap. I played in the school band (trunpet) so I played and love some classical. We placed in the top three of every band competion we entered, it was something we enjoyed.

Anyway,
Faithful,
Ask your H if he wants to start up the trade date thing.

It took me a while to get into it, he may balk at it at first. It might be that he takes you to ball games, and you take him to art shows, but it has worked out well for us.

The date before the last one, I took W to an Art show - exibits from the Great Southwest Railway collection. Quite good, then we went to dinner. Her last one was a movie - Herbie unplugged. We like the low key stuff.

Ask him what he thinks. If he will buy in, it will be a good thing for both of you, but it will also give you a big boost to know he will help with your future.

If you have friends at work, see if you can trade baby sitting once a month or something. You need alone time. I know DS doesn't intrude, but it's a subtle thing, and alone is better.

Start out slow, you do one or two, then ask him to do one and set a date. You can make them regular later after you both get comfortable with it.

SS

Does this mean we are old? *vbg*

But then again, I also used to listen to Air Supply, Bread, Chicago, the Carpenters. . . Can't listen to most of their songs now.

W and I sort of say "Color my world" by Chicago is our song.
(But we claim every love song that is playing, whenever it plays.)

I personally like "make it with you" by Bread as far as my favorite popular song from my youth.

It's funny, I heard my daughter singing 70's songs, and asked her about them. She says they are better than the "new stuff." She and her friends listen to the classic rock station. Go figure.

Maybe I should get her Grays's CD.

SS

SS, it's sad, but she's right -- most of the mainstream stuff right now is pretty awful.

And that's long before you throw in the videos with the provacative dancing, nudity, foul language (it's edited out on the radio stations, but not TV, go figure!), etc.

Being parents is tough, huh?

Life was a lot simpler back then. People sang songs about what they felt. Now so much of it is for effect.

Have you noticed, so many of the teenagers these days are wearing t-shirts emblazoned with bands that only we would remember? I don't know if those shirts belong to their parents or what, but it's the "hip" thing to do.

Is "hip" even a happenin' word now?

Is happennin'?

LOL

slh

Got to go for a while, guys --

FF, if I don't get to come back to the 'puter before this evening, have a good date tonight. We want updates! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SS, have a great, safe trip.


slh

See ya SLH,
Let me know how your dates go too.

You think I'm kidding?

SS

SS, no beans to spill. This is a no way never never situation, from both our perspectives. I protest too much, but it's true.

SS, I was relieved you were joking about Yanni. I didn't want to assume. Has the pendulum swung? Am I too careful about not hurting people's feelings?

I'm not ga-ga over 70s rock. In my youth I was beaten over the head with classic rock. It was ruined for me. But Beggars Banquet and LZ's 4th record are still two of the best ever made.

There's so much more music out there today, and lots and lots of it is great. But listen to Clear Channel, Viacom, and Disney stations (I think those account for about 95% of the music stations in the U.S.), and you get what you came for. Over-produced, over-marketed pap that you can ignore.

Beggars Banquet. Yep.

SLH, have you heard Lucinda Williams' recent live record? "Righteously" is one sexy song, for grownups.

GC

About Yani -
Sorry if I scared you.
I was thinking you would come back and say
WHATTTTTTTTT? Are YOU NUTS SS????


Not sure how much I'll get back on before we leave. See You all later.

SS backs up the dump truck to the wood pile. Dumps 6 cords of cut and split ponderosa pine on the pile, drives truck away.

SS

...but not before catching the tailgate on fire.


GC:

If not yanni, what about Zamfir? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

weaver???

I replied 2 your post, but got a "replying 2 a post that's been deleted" message?

So, my post didn't post either.

Things okay?

-ol' 2long

Gray, I was thinking about you after you prop'ed me on my 'anniversary' thread. No insights to give you, just remembering your sit, and chasing up some early exchanges between us.

It used to be YOU hopeful and ME despondant. Never dreamed it would be Squid who stayed IN marriage and Sparrow who left.

Life has teeth and bites, don't feed it open hand.

{{{gray}}}

Strange how stuff turns out.

Ain't it strange, Bob? I remember those times too.

I remember telling you, "No more midnight drives, buddy, agreed?"

People who knew, former WW even, told me then, things like, "I am VERY confident your sparrow will return. She can't do this. It's too unspeakable."

Well, unspeakable or not, she's done it, and she's gone almost all the way. Sparrow and the tinman plan to get married.

Why? Why would they do that? What would be the point?

Anyway... my dinner companion is late.

SS, have a wonderful vacation. If you stop in any of the gift shops, check out the Moran paintings. I have a book of his prints, and one day, when I have nothing but time on my hands, they'll get framed and put on the wall. Very beautiful paintings. Purdy pictures, what's not to like?

Have fun. Yellowstone is one of my favorite places.

GC

2long,

I am okay. This place just isn't very good for me right now. I feel like I am growing, but keep coming back here, to see what my friends are doing mostly, and then get in a bad place mentally.

For me, this place has become bad mojo, for lack of a better word.

I really, really need a place that teaches forgiveness and self growth and I have found it on Royce's site, but I miss my friends here.

Then what happened with Coach, and then what Tempest wrote...it is just not good for me right now.

I sure am going to miss my friends on this thread though, and the people I adore on this website, but for me I'm afraid I have to get out of here.

It makes me nuts when I come back here.

Take care 2long, I hope when I am at a place that I can come back and be strong emotionally and mentally, that everyone will still be here that I care about.

Maybe though as SS says, we will all meet again someday.

What an odd few days it's been. I'm so glad I can come here and warm my hands at this camp fire.

SS is gone, right? So I can say this: I do believe he's the most genuinely compassionate and loving man I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. (Even though I've never met him in person.) There's no anger in him. He never answers anger with anger. A godly man -- and that's not something I say lightly -- one who really does walk in Jesus' and Buddha's footsteps. I'm honored to know him. I'd like to be more like him. I'd like the whole world to be more like him. I don't think we would have any wars. I wonder if SS would like a disciple. I bet he'd be annoyed, just like most of the holy men who end up with disciples.

I'm glad 2Long teases him, too. Because I know SS laughs, and I have a feeling that the rest of us don't make him laugh nearly enough.

SS, when you get back, this part is for you. It looks like the furthest west I'm going to make it this summer is Minneapolis. I'm going to visit Cerri with DD. At least, I think I am, if I can get good flights.

You live in Colorado near Zion Canyon, if I remember right. I want to bring DD to see Zion one day soon. But not quite yet, because at 2 1/2 she won't remember it well. I think next summer I'll try to start the trips-to-places-she-should-see. Zion would be a good place to start.

Today I got a call from our parenting coordinator. She's the lady who tries to keep me and my ex from each other's throats while we're doing DD things.

I've been asking for months that we acknowledge and begin to forgive for the hurts that we've done to each other.

I finally got the parenting coordinator to agree that it's a good idea a couple of weeks ago. She thought I wanted justice. I laughed when she finally burst out and said it. "Justice?" I said. "Justice doesn't heal. I've had justice, just about as much as I need. What we need is compassion."

There was a dead silence on the other end of the phone. Then... "Compassion?"

"Yeah."

"Compassion is the first step to forgiveness."

"I know."

"Forgiveness is a really good thing."

"Yeah. I know. I think this would be an okay first step."

So now the parenting coordinator is pushing it along, a little faster than I really want to go. I know it's good for us. That doesn't mean I'm looking forward to ....

The call that came from the parenting coordinator today. She said, "I want to meet with you and [ex] together. To be in the same room and take the first step toward acknowledging and forgiving. I want to know if you're available the first week of August to do that."

So now we're meeting on August 4th to talk about compassion and forgiveness and healing. I have a writing assignment before that. I'm to write about the things I've done that were harmful, to acknowledge the pain they've caused, and to apologize for them.

I don't have a problem with that. I've already made as much of a "fearless moral inventory" as I can, and I'll do it again without too much trouble.

It will be hard to look at my ex because I'm afraid that she won't be able to acknowledge the things that have really hurt me. I'm afraid that even though I said them in ways that were as clear as I could, that she still never heard.

I'm afraid of walking away from that meeting actually caring again. I need, really need, for that level of caring to not reappear in my life. My anger has protected me from the pain of caring in many instances.

I don't know what will replace if the last of the anger fades. They say the love never ends. There has to be a way for the pain of it to fade, though.

And I'm afraid of feeling all the pain again, though there's no way to avoid that. Maybe this time there will be more healing. I suppose there always is when we face the pain, when we sit with it and listen to it and comfort it. I don't know that I can comfort any of my ex's pain. I don't know that I created it.

She's very angry at how hard I made things. That I didn't just go along with the divorce. That I said no, that I wouldn't play. She's furious -- humiliated and very hurt -- that I've said she's wrong, and that I exposed her relationship with her new husband, and that I exposed her revokation of her consent to the adoption. I can't honestly say that I'm sorry for those things, though I am sorry to see her in pain.

I can't say that I'm sorry for her rage when I wore my wedding ring last year after her grandmother's funeral.

I could say I'm sorry that her rage fueled her engagement to her new husband. Even that, though? I'm glad that it happened. It saved me three months of waiting for an end that seemed very slow in coming.

I've done things that I shouldn't have, certainly. The ranting about our daughter's family story wasn't necessary. I could have just said no again, without turning it as ugly as I did.

I never should have said that I would fight her for our daughter if she ended up with her new husband. Even if it was true, bringing the kids into the fight makes it nuclear. Before it was conventional warfare.

And I can say that I should have left when I first wanted to in the summer of 2002. Even earlier than that, in December of 2001, when she first started to withdraw. That very first time when I went downstairs and cried and thought our marriage was over. I should have packed and left then.

It would have been horribly hard and devastating. Exactly like it was to do it 2 years later. And in 2001, we didn't have a baby.

There would have been no other life we were altering forever. I can say that with some certainty. I'm sorry that I didn't have the strength to take a stand then, to say no, this doesn't work for me and I'm leaving this situation that is so very painful to me.

I thought, I really thought, that my patience and easygoing nature were a virture, and I am absolutely sorry for the pain that I could have avoided for all of us if I had simply said that I wouldn't tolerate a painful situation one minute longer.

I can say, too, that I'm sorry I didn't ask her to leave years ago, when she questioned whether she wanted to be with me. We'd been together for three years and I was completely in love with her. So I didn't ask her to leave, I turned into the usual mess. And then I stopped talking about it and just went on with life and let her figure it out, and I though it was all okay when she told me she was done thinking and there was no one in the world she loved more than me.

It turns out that meant "so I'll wait until I do find someone I love more and then dump you like an old tire."

I didn't know that at the time. I'm still sorry I didn't stand up for myself and say that I deserve to be the center of someone's world. I'm learning. I say that now. I'll say that to her in our meeting, probably. It's not a judgement of her. It's simply that I know it about myself now. I do deserve it. I'm a truly worthy and beautiful human being. I didn't know that -- didn't think it -- didn't believe it.

I still have "fat" days and Cerri would tell you that I refuse to believe any recognition of external attractiveness I may possess. But inside, there's something a whole lot stronger than there was.

My ex chose not to cherish me, to cherish that which is beautiful and worthy in me. I know, now, that that is a reflection on her ability, not on whether I really am beautiful or worthy. And because she chose not to do those things, she lost me. Oh, yes, she's the one who left, absolutely. And in the leaving, I lost her as well -- someone I've loved for almost 20 years. But she lost me, too, and in the end, I think maybe she lost more than I did. I lost her and an adoption that would protect me and our daughter.

She lost me. And the integrity that goes with keeping her word. And one day our daughter will look at this whole story. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have a sense that our daughter's pain will be the tenfold repayment. Maybe to both of us for our parts in it. But... I think maybe it will be visited more on my ex than on me.

That thought quiets much of my inner turbulence when I realize it. I hurt for my daughter and my ex when I think about what that's going to look like. Maybe it'll happen when our daughter is a teenager. Maybe when she's in her 20s. Maybe it won't happen at all.

But...

I think it will. And I'm very sad for both of them. I can't protect either of them, nor myself, from that future pain. And I haven't figured out how to change that day that I see coming, how to transform it into something good for all of us.

I don't know how I got here from thinking about SS and his compassion.

Time for a song. It reminds me of ... so many. Never hug a man you loved once. Never consider the loves of your past. Never never never. Sigh.

Sing along with me, folks.

http://radio.terra.com.br/busca/musicas.php?musica=Fallin'

I keep on fallin'
In and out of love
With you
Sometimes I love ya
Sometimes u make me blue
Sometimes I feel good

At times I feel used
Lovin you darlin'
Makes me so confused

I keep on
Fallin'
In and out of love with you
I never loved someone
The way that I love you

[Verse 2]
Oh, oh , I never felt this way
How do you give me so much pleasure
And cause me so much pain
Just when I think
Ive taken more than would a fool
I start fallin' back in love with you

I keep on
Fallin'
In and out of love with you
I never loved someone
The way that I love you

[Bridge]
Oh baby
I, I, I, I'm fallin'
I, I, I, I'm fallin'
Fall

I keep on
Fallin'
In and out of love with you
I never loved someone
The way that I love you

Im fallin'
In and out of love with you
I never loved someone
The way that I love you

Im fallin'
In and out of love with you
I never loved someone
The way that I love you

What?

Hi all,

Just have time to say hi and I am okay.

I will come to the fire later when Beth is asleep and catch up.

Loved the verse.

Shul

I have a nearly obscene craving for a toasted mushmallow. S'more anyone?

GC - hope your dinner is lovely!

SS - hope you get plenty of "rest" on your va-ca.

Weaver - (squidges)

2long - no double e r for me tonight. How about a cherry pepsi with a shot of JD?