Yep, I think I detect this too.

Beautiful , Weaver.

Obviously not. She's my XW. I don't expect anything from her. If I did something like that and she reciprocated, I wouldn't even know what to think. I'd think she was on a doomed passenger flight.

My emotions will catch up soon enough...

GC

Did you ever sit back and really think about the process of crying? It really doesn't make much sense, does it.

It begins, for me anyway, as an ache. A purely physical ache. Often in my throat, sometimes in my eyes. I can put that ache off for days if I have to. It's better, easier on me, if I don't. When I was in the middle of the worst of things, I learned to actually hurry my tears along. More about that later.

It aches. And aches. And aches some more. In shooting lines from upper arms to trapezius muscles, as if there is a thread of agony that is activated there when I'm upset.

In the very worst of times, it makes my hands hurt. So badly that I can hardly use them. Funny that emotional pain should have such a physical manifestation.

And somewhere in there, the tears begin. A stinging at the corners of the eyes as the tear ducts begin to work overtime. I think the sting must be the extra salt, as if those first few tears get an extra dose or something.

Somewhere in the upper part of my nose, something opens up, also aching. And the nostrils flair, probably getting ready for things to come. I'm sure there's some anatomical name for all these goings-on.

The first tears don't fall. They swim around in my eyes, blurring everything I see. Blinding me to the things around me. I let them fall. It seems to me there used to be fewer of them when I was a child and a teenager and a twenty-something. It seems to me that something broke open somewhere along the way, and there are many more tears now. So I let them fall.

Crying is darned hard work when you're really doing it. You know the kind of crying I mean. Not the delicate beauty of a few tears. I mean the kind where your whole body starts to shake. The kind where your face scrunches up into a grimace so tight that the muscle of your face scream. The kind where, if you're somewhere private, you wail, and if you're somewhere that you might be overheard and embarassed, there are quiet squeaking whimpers.

Somewhere in there you realize you've gotten your pillow or your jacket or your backpack -- or whatever you've got to cling to -- soaking wet. So you turn it over or around or you shift, and you're not done. You hold your face in your hands, trying desperately to ease the aching agony that is crying. Feeling the sobs wrench through your body. Somewhere in there, there's a quiet calm voice that asks, Why am I crying? and often there is no answer. It just is. An overwhelming agony of loneliness or sadness or grief that has no one source and no one solution. It just is.

Somewhere along the way somewhere, the wrenching muscular work that is called sobbing clears out what it needs to clear. Sometimes you feel better. Often you don't. More often than not, I stop when I can no longer breathe.

That's a step in the right direction. I remember when I would stop and find kleenex and blow my nose and blow it again because I couldn't breathe. And then I would continue crying. Sobbing. And it would last until I was so exhausted that I literally couldn't move -- and nothing would be better. I would stop only because the exhaustion wouldn't let me continue.

After the tears fade, there's something clearer, sometimes. It seems to me that some tension in the muscles, some waste product of the hormones of stress and anxiety and fear and grief, is broken down in the midst of crying.

There is lassitude. Exhaustion. The aches in the body fade. There's swollen nose and red eyes to contend with. There's a desperate need for sleep.

There's some kind of peace, sometimes. Some kind of shift in energy, some kind of chaotic emotional release.

Crying is, I think, a blessing more than it is a curse. But it's still a painful blessing.

I know. With the exception of the letter I proposed you write, I was talking about in your head. In your mind, heart...inner world. This is where healing begins. Has nothing to do with her directly but may help her indirectly.

Plus the focus on blame and the nasty connotations of the the word betrayal which is prevalient on this site bothers me now. I think it keeps us stuck, and for me I think it was very bad for me this past year. I never looked at my own faults at all, as I could put all the blame on him. Maybe he made a choice I would not have made but that does not make him a bad person. We all have our faults, some just more obvious than others.

I want to live in a world where I can forgive easily, and let the hurt go. I want to be able at some point in the future if fate would have it, to have a friendship with Dan. Maybe more, but for now he has his own path to travel without me.

But then I never was too stuck on marriage vows since I have never made them. Maybe had there been vows involved my forgiveness would not come so easily.

Which when you said you worry about her made me think of all of this anyway.


And JJ, yes crying IS a blessing. I know that feeling of panic and the times when it actually hurts to breathe.

Do you remember the times in the beginning when the pain was so great that the tears wouldn't come? Mercy, that was some big pain.

Hi Weaver !!!

SS waves........

Hi J!!!

Tomatoes recovering somewhat.

Peaches (dwarf tree) are getting ripe - two or three a day. Had peaches and cream yesterday, but just milk today. Ran out of cream.

Grapes are ready too, packed some in my lunch.

I see you are a good cook, as well as having all the other talents you have.

I haven't cried "all out" for about three years. Funny the things that can bring us to tears. Have shed tears over people on MB - but not the racking sobs that come from love lost, or something of similar import.

As always, you are welcome to come by on the way home from work and get some tomatoes. I think we can spare some peaches too, if you want some.

Life continues to be interresting. Hard some days, but interresting. I hope your world is a little brighter today than it was yesterday.

SS

SS, check out my update and give me your opinion, ok?

Hi J, I loved your crying post.

Hi SS!

Doing some laundry here, leaving in the am for only one night. Funds a little tight right now.

Tomato's and peaches sound heavenly. I do have some home grown cukes someone brought over. They are very good.

No fruit here this summer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Next year is the year for reaping for me I think. This year is the year for sowing. (oh I hope, I hope, I hope LOL)

Have fun, Weaver. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks girl!

Let's see SLH .................. where were we?

SLH said:
SS, things were changing. . . and then stopped. Same old same old.

Somehow I thought that the seriousness of our last conversation – the fact that I would be taking to the foothills if he couldn't display some serious effort – would have enabled him to at least work on our M. Not so.

Tell me if this was a bad week, or if you still feel this way. It's important, and both of us need to know.


I have been trying to be a wonderful wife, loving, sensitive, kind. I tell him that I love him all the time. I thank him with words & affection for being my husband. I ask what I can do for him.

This weekend I blew it. I was tired of trying to be strong for us both only to see no indication of anything on his part, still. I was weary from daily expressing my love, only to have him answer an unenthusiastic “Mmmmm-hmmmm,” to my ILYs. I was sick of him not being motivated to do ANYTHING, even take responsibility of the girls occasionally.

Look how important this is/was to you.

Maybe we should talk about life and how it goes. I see that he has written a little here, I hope he reads this too.

You may be surprised at this, but most people have a skewed idea of what life is really like.
I am speaking about the dream of "living happily ever after."

You see, I believe in it. I really do. Most people think it's a myth, but I don't.

We know life is going to be difficult. We expect swear, and the occasional tears, and we say "that's just the way it is."

Well, it is. Life is hard, and it won't change, but I still say we can live happily ever after.
(Except for the occasional fight with our spouse, that is always so hard on me.)

First, you have to come to agreement on what it is that you both want. Not what you THINK you want, but what you really want.

Do you want to be strapped like you are for money?
Do you want to continue to loose love for him, and does he want that?
Are you happy with no vacations, and little time together?

If you are not, then why do you think it has to be that way? Why is it that way?

I can guarantee that it will stay that way unless you change it. YOU - plural. The two of you. You know, working together, as a team. Using your strengths, each of you doing the parts you do best.

If he loves you, he will want to help. If he loves you, he WILL help. If you love him, you won't let him continue using up all his time at WORK. Even if he enjoys work, that is not what is best for him. I know you understand.

Now, lets look at the HOW of this.


We are not spendthrifts, we have gone without many nice things (vacations, new cars, "toys", etc – heck, we don't even buy Christmas or Birthday gifts for each other because they cost too much, just the kids! but we are still taking on more water than we are baling out. I *know* what it is like to be “tired”. And yet I have tried and am still trying for our M.

And that, my friends, is the crux of our problem. He is depressed. He has too much on his plate and now, having to deal with me, “makes it even more overwhelming”.


*Bills (including a $500 electric bill; we know not why and don't have the $ to have looked into, but our SAHM’ neighbor's is $120).
*Our house, falling apart as we speak (leaking plumbing, H2O bubbling up under the foundation; the reason FOR the $500 elec bill, awful wiring, etc)
*Not even being able to afford all of our prescriptions (ADs included), just the kids. No time for ourselves, for our marriage.
*No ability to get away, if even for a date (we have small children)

When we DO have a few moments together to enjoy each other, we are so wrapped up in our own miseries and inability to deal with them that we cannot enjoy the moment.

First you need to decide what you really want. I suggest that most people get out of life that which they want most.

I hear people say "I want to be rich, and famous," then they watch TV all day.
I disagree most of the time. People that REALLY want to be rich and famous are spending their time becoming just that. You follow me?

Now, I am not aiming this AT YOU. I am suggesting that you need to look at what you want, and then make it happen. Some people don't make it happen because they don't know it's possible. Some because it is too much effort. I don't think the effort is the problem for you. I think you are stuck, and it will only take a little effort to get you moving along.

So, what do you want? What kind of life style?

Me, I don't want to be rich. I think perhaps I could be, if I worked for that. What I want is family time, time to help others, and a decent standard of living. I want recreation time, time with my family, time with my W. I want to be respected in my field of labor, I want to do a good job, but I won't spend the time to do a great job, because it cuts into my family time.

God said "by the sweat of thy face thou shalt eat thy bread all the days of thy life." I dont' want to get out of work, but neither do I want to die from it, or divorce because of it.

Now, when you want something, you simply do the things that will bring it to you. People try to make it more complicated than it is. It really is that simple. Easy? No, but simple, yes.

If you don't want 500 per month utility bills, you move.
Commute too long? Change jobs, or move closer to work.
House payment to high? Increase income, or get a different house.

I could go on, but you can see.

All to often, we wait for our circumstances to change on their own, when we should be looking into how to CHANGE THEM OURSELVES.

We say things like "If only the business would take off, we would be comfortable."
We have choices -
Stay and live with it -
Change jobs -
and I always include a third one - Listen to God, and do what he suggests. He knows things we do not, and he may have us stay when logic tells us to leave. This has happened to me - I understand it can happen to you. Note, I understand it is not always easy to read God's playbook. Sometimes it takes months of prayer, and thought to know.

You have lots of variables, but it boils down to just a few things.
Move
Change jobs
Get them to pay Ti more.

Now again - often we feel limited by what goes on around us, but you can change things. Most people do it backwards, they get in to a house and a job and wish things were different. What is more important, is what is WANTED, and then to figure out what changes are needed to make things as they are wanted.

I don't mean stuff like "We want a $25.00 per month house payment, for a million dollar house."
I mean, pick out of the real world the lifestyle you want, then make it real for you. There are people that live on half of what you make. Where do they live? And more important, HOW do they live?

It could be as simple as driving around some neighborhoods near to where Ti works, and asking people how the schools are, and how much the homes cost.

Now - it would be great if he will work with you on this. There are lots, and lots of options, from a different house, to different jobs. I hope he will help, and I believe he will............but I don't know.

You have options alone. You can live with it as it is, or you can work with him to change it, or you can leave. I know which option is the best one, but these are your choices. You don't have to live with things as they are - you really don't. MB is full of folks that made the changes - both those that made it work, and those that left. I see many that left that are happy, and healthy, and doing well. Dont' tell me you couldn't, because I wouldn't believe you. Graycloud makes a good living, he would jump at the chance to date you if you were single. BTW, I am not trying to be funny, or encourage anything but simply lay out the facts. Gray is a gentleman, I don't expect him to comment, but options exist.

But can I get him to look elsewhere for another job, even in another city, anything to IMPROVE things? No. Those rare moments when he is not putting some fire out at our house, he is too depressed to want to do anything towards improving things. And the sad thing is, I understand that. Lately I don’t feel like doing anything either. I don’t know how we function.

I will say that this last argument ENDED well – he realizes this and that, promises to work on changes, etc. But then he always says this, doesn't he? And we always end up back where we were.

So unless I am committed to bludgeoning my head against his walls each and every time he erects them in order to get thru to the man, it looks like I have lost.

You lost?
Lost what?

You may loose him......... but loose life? Loose happiness? Loose joy?
NO !

Your life is out there waiting to happen. I can witness that there is joy after your thirties. Lots of fun, lots of happiness, lots of joy.

"Happy are those that dream dreams, and are willing to pay the price to make them come true."

If he won't work with you, you can make changes by yourself, and see if he wants to come. More difficult, not as much fun, but possible. We live in the real world, and it molds us, but it seldom controls us. We have lots of choices.

Part of me wants to hang on -- a big part of me. But then I look at myself in five years -- just like I did five years Past, and wonder if I will be in the same miserable place, or if he will have woken up. Am I selfish for feeling like I DESERVE more? (Help me, FF!) That my life is rushing past me and I am just standing here, immobilized by the very thing I love?

Will I regret staying, with so little effort from Him?

It is sad, but I think [blue]money[/color] would solve many of our problems. And no, NOT the lottery, just enough to pay the freakin' bills; to get by. To not have to worry about the electricity being cut off again, or how we are going to afford to bring the youngest to the doc for her UTI, or where we are going to get the surprise $50 copay for her Rx.

Remember God.
He knows what is needed, he knows what is best. If you search for solutions with all your heart, do all that you can, then call upon him for help, he will help you.
Look at the options. Our children have been to 4 different elementary schools. We never wanted it to be that way. It has turned out better than we ever dreamed.

I realize everyone has problems -- just different ones, so I don't know how to measure the seriousness of this. I only know that I am desperately tired of this all.

This is very serious. What could be more serious - it is life threatening. If not dealt with, it could mean divorce - and what threatens life for children more than that? Speaking of emotional life, not physical life.

You are riding the roller coaster, but the lows are getting lower.
My belief is that time is running out. Even if it is not, why wait?

You don't need to loose. Why would you think that way?

Take a look at the things that are really important to you.
Some call it "thinking outside the box." Things are not always what they seem.

SS

SS, I just checked in and saw that you had written me. Thank you.

Can you give me a little while to respond? Ti's job had a meeting yesterday where they informed all (16) of their employees that they did not have the money to hand out paychecks today, but that they hoped they'd have it by next week. They aren't sure if they will have any contracts coming in to pay him for his paycheck after that.

When Ti's Boss/the owner of the company coaxed him into divulging how bad things where for us financially, the owner & owner's wife signed over to us the last $42 left in their own account plus a rebate check they had been meaning to deposit in their own acct.

They have currently dumped all of their savings, etc into the floundering company, so have no more to give us.

I am moved to tears by their generousity, truly. But will that pay off the elec bill before they come to disconnect Monday?

I look at this as an opportunity; an awakening. Who knows what we could do, when put in dire enough circumstances? This is when people shine, transcend, become something amazing. Who knows what blessings await us if only we look?

But does Ti really want to look?

Ti has some kind of twisted loyalty to this company. They really could not lose him; the company would not survive. I don't mean to sound like a braggart, but he is the genius behind that company. But I feel his continued loyalty is misplaced, and yet he clings to it. Because of the promises made him "when things get better"; because of the fact he can't let them down, because he is bound to be rewarded for all of his hard work "one day".

I am just frusturated.

I would like Ti to read what you wrote. I will print it out for him.

Thank you for listening. I need a friend right now.


slh

{{SLH}}

SLH - just read only the last post you put here. I will send up a prayer for you.

I am learning something that my FIL said to me when I exposed WW to him. (He thought something was going on - his little girl stopped calling him). He told me the character that I will build through this - the man I will be when I emerge on the other side of this - would boggle my mind. I did not understand.

I now understand.

The heat of tempering hurts. But like you said - in times of great diversity we transcend to survive.

Praying for you.

far

Thanks, FF.

I just finished reading your thread. I have no input now but want you to know I am thinking of you. Prayers, lovey.

JJ, you speak for us all. I've never in my life cried like I have these last 8 months. Not even when I was 10, and my parents divorced.

2Long, have you been in contact with Aphelion? I think of him all the time.

Gray, I couldn't quite justify writing the letter either. Feeling it is one thing. Forgiving others their transgressions is always good, and something I strive for. But for those receiving our redemption, those not especially struck with repentance, or sorrow or remorse for their actions, it would seem like a pass.

And although I may no longer harbor any animosity, I could not quite condone that.

FAR, saw your post as I put mine up. Just wanted to say. . . thank you.

SLH

SLH, I remember a book about a family who decided to make it. Some business somewhere and I don't remember where or the details. But I remember what they did, what they sacrificed. No furniture, nothing but a tiny one-bedroom apartment, nothing to eat a lot of days. True poverty.

They made it.

It sounds to me like that boss is a man of true, honest-to-god integrity. That's unusual and more than unusual. I understand loyalty to that, even in the face of what seems like a death knell.

It's not crazy. It's what keeps us humans alive, because we're weak and foolish by ourselves, and our communities give us life. The work that Ti does is not just the work. It's the community and the life.

I know how worried and frightened you are. I would be too. And what I want to know is why this company is floundering. If Ti is the genius, what's missing? (Companies need lots more than genuises to stay afloat.)

I'm not a genius, and I've never had to take on running a business. My boss does that and I'm glad he's there to do it. It's a tough job that he doesn't get nearly enough credit for.

So... I'm just wondering what that little bit of extra chemistry is. They're right on the edge of getting up to the next level. Something little might take them there.

SLH,
I am sorry I took so long to respond to you. It's been on my mind.

I still have more to get across, but am thinking how to say it.

Please take my post as encouragement. That's what it was meant to be.

SS

The illusion of any power over my XW is just that. If that's true, then telling her I forgive her is as pointless as telling her she's a criminal. Doesn't the telling assume the same imaginary power, regardless of the message?

The important thing is to release myself from resentment and from cherishing my own pain. Whether or not I communicate that experience to my XW is irrelevant.

Whether or not that's forgiveness is open to debate.

I think of her with compassion. I suffer now, not because she hurt me, but because she hurt herself. My attachment to her is gone, and I still hurt for her. Thinking of the desert her soul travels in makes me ache. I know my love for her is real. It's not obsession, dependency, or a misplaced attachment. It carries no expectation. I'm ready to never speak to her again. I want to meet someone new. I want a clean start. But knowing how she's been diminished, and knowing I played a role in it, leaves me with a wealth of sorrow.

Wonderful. That and about $3.00 will get me a nice cafe au lait.

SS, S&G's music is incredibly powerful. There's a kernel of human truth in that music that... describing it doesn't do it justice. I'm listening to "Bookends" right now, and since I was a boy, this song has made me want to cry. I've been listening to this music since playing my dad's copy of the Greatest Hits record when I was little, 30 years ago, and it still has the same effect.

SS, you asked where is my heart; where do I want it to be.

I'm okay with where it is right now. Things are going to change soon. My circumstances are going to change. For whatever's coming, I'm wiiiiiiiiiiiiide open.

SLH, FF, I'm thinking about you two. And weaver, you are the best.

Okay, I have to meet my friend for a ride around the lake in a few hours, so I'd better get to sleep. There's a Belgian waffle at the end of the line. Night all.

GC