FL,

I just re read my post to you and thought it sounded a little crass, or sarcastic or something. I didn't mean it that way at all. I understand what you are saying very much, but I did not share that experience here. I focused so much on my exSO who is a cheater, and was married when I met that I completely lost site of my part in our disastrous relationship. I let blame rule, and was not a very nice person. I regret that I didn't just look in the mirror, change what I needed to about me and let him follow his own path to healing. But then again it could have been my own guilt which led me to pull the wrong stuff from this website and miss all the good stuff about self-focus and improving oneself first and foremost.

just spoke with my attorney. It will take him a couple weeks to finish our case and then he said it will sit on a judge's desk for about 3 weeks then....finished. Tomorrow is our 14th wedding anniversary. We are going out to dinner anyway. I guess we have to break this to our kids sooner than I thought. I feel sick to my stomach

I'm so sorry FF. Wish I could take your pain away.

Thank you, Weaver. Funny my attorney just was so puzzled why we are on this path again. When I told him the A never stopped he said "then why did he want to continue the marriage and stop the D?" I just don't get it either.

He's addicted, he's a cake eater, he has problems.

None of which have anything to do with you. You are not the problem, and he likes you.

Faith,

He will lose you now, and then he will either face his demons and become a worthwhile human being...or he will not.

This is now and MUST be, about you. Your salvation, and that of your kids.

They cannot thrive with two broken parents Faith. One of you has got to be strong, and it looks like it is up to you.

Oh, FF, your 14th anniversary. I read that and my heart just broke again all over for you. Wish I could ease your pain, and that of your babies.


slh

Weaves, you've got mail.

Kimmy, so excited to hear that progress is being made in the fight for justice against the DNA Donor. I keep hoping that soon you can give us the ultimate good news. . .

Are you enjoying your new job?


slh

Kimmy... Rnehaaah!

Thanks to all for kind words. Dull agony. Nice, J. SLH, I do want change, and I think I'm preparing for it. My big problem - after 15 months of scrupulously looking after myself, I'm ready to start looking out for someone else.

Sure enough, another friend talked to me today about a problem she's having - a question of whether she has any obligation to get involved in a dispute between two colleagues. Never mind the details. Mostly she needed someone to tell her it's okay to stay out of the situation. But her situation is very, very tricky, and she was unsure.

FF... sorry you've reached an anniversary in the middle of everything.

Have you ever gone through a period, or periods, of being angry?

Eye of the storm.

Okay weaver. Shellac is not nasty stuff. But I don't know how widely it's been used in exterior applications. Anyway, here's what you should do. Go get a gallon of denatured alcohol at the hardware store or home center (around $10). It's not evil stuff, just ethanol with something added to it, maybe methanol, to make it poisonous. Soak a sponge in it, and wipe a nice heavy pool of it on a small section of that business on your porch. Give it a minute, then wipe it off with a paper towel. If it's sticky and gloopy, the finish is shellac. If it just smiles back at the alcohol, it's a synthetic resin that's tougher to remove. Shellac you can remove with alcohol, you'll just need lots of rags. Adding mineral spirits to the alcohol will slow its evaporation, but isn't really necessary.

Shoot, I should just come over and do it for you.

By the way, that fella's attitude - "just tear it down and replace it with something new" - makes me CRAZY. But then I haven't seen your porch. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You're right weaver, there are many bigwigs here that do not believe in unconditional love. I do, but I also believe in the need to be fierce when circumstances demand it. Maybe you'll remember, about two months ago I sent a harsh reply to one of sparrow's emails. I felt awful about it afterward. But after getting some distance from the emotions, I realized it was a good thing to do, and oddly enough, a loving thing to do.

Distinguishing between cathartic anger, know-it-all sanctimoniousness, and fierce, loving, self-protection is tough, no doubt.

GC

hi weaver,

no, you post did not sound crass or sarcastic or anything negative in my ears. and thanks for the well wishes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

FF, sending you prayers and love today. do something extra nice for yourself today!! ok??

has WH come up with a date that he plans to move out on yet? it must be so hard having this cloud over your head. i would think it will not start to clear until the kids know, he moves out and you can start moving nothing but forward. {{{{{FF}}}}}

morning to everyone else.

ok, i just HAVE to ask. who in the world are you talking about??? i obviously must not read posts by these people because i just don't see it.

if you are saying unconditional love = doormat, i understand what you mean. but i don't think anyone here really believes anyone should be a doormat either.

FL, what I wrote may have been not the best way of putting it. There's no way I'm going to badmouth anybody, so I regret even mentioning it.

GC

no worries, i'll edit it out if you want....

FL:

Harley himself pooh pooh's unconditional love. We had a lively and interesting discussion about this several thousand years ago:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=008568

One of my favorites.

-ol' 2long (aka T-zero/Qfwfq)

Yes, GC lots of periods of anger mostly due to knowing something was happening but not being able to put my finger on it.

There is not unconditional love imo.

We all have conditions. Some have more conditions than others.

there is unconditional love, we humans are just not good at doing it. that does not mean we should not strive for it.

i'm running off to a mtg, so no time for a big debate on it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SLH, thanks for asking. I've been trying to figure out what to say, what more details might be useful. My mind goes entirely blank when I try to think about it. Err, do you want to know about the look in his eyes? How about what it felt like when our hands touched? It's sad how we as a culture rarely write about the mushy stuff. We think it's too erotic, even when it's.... just mushy.

And so I could tell you what he does for a living. I could tell you the self-deprecating, and untrue, things he says about his outer, public self. I could tell you about his family, the ex spouse, the kids. I could tell you about where he lives.

But that would be giving things away that aren't mine, so I won't.

So ... I could tell you how we met. We were introduced by a mutual friend at a party a couple years ago. I could tell you about how we saw each other occasionally after that and about the attraction that I felt instantly -- and at a time when an attraction to someone else was a challenge to leading an ethical life, not a pleasure.

I could tell you how that attraction returned and was stronger each time I saw him. I protected my marriage, made the ethical choices, and still knew that he was dangerous to me. I was rotten to him sometimes, hoping he'd disappear and relieve me of the worry of knowing him. I could talk, too, about what he did to protect my marriage, and me, and himself. Because those things were very important to him, too.

I could tell you about how good it felt to keep my boundaries where they needed to be, even though it was incredibly difficult. I could tell you about how frustrating it was, too.

And there was the support of that same mutual friend, advising again and again the ethical course of action. Suggesting ways to keep boundaries where they needed to be, calming my jangling nerves.

I could say how that lasted for six months or so, and then the attraction was too strong, and our contact had to change or end. And so it changed -- and dropped off considerably -- and nearly ended. He started dating someone (he was recently divorced) and that helped cool things between us.

I could tell you how my worldview changed when my ex got engaged and I was finally free. Anyone remember the utter freedom I felt when that happened? The relief? It was profound. I started dating soon thereafter, fun dates that I had no desire to be serious about. Just a return to an interaction I'd left a long while ago.

After that, I saw him one last time. He stayed at my house. But he was still dating someone else then and we stayed on opposite sides of every group we were in for an entire weekend. We barely spoke to each other, though we were polite. And then everyone else left and we were by ourselves.

And in that space, the silence between us became an entirely different kind of quiet.

There was a single kiss.

It left us both utterly breathless and giddy. And then, the next day, pain and confusion.

I felt utterly lost when he responded with fear and ... something. I'm not sure what the right word is. But he knew he was walking too close to the line, even if his dating relationship wasn't quite at a "we're exclusive" level in his mind... it was probably that way in his girlfriend's mind.

And so there was the beginning of a silence between us, one that stretched for days and that hurt and hurt and hurt.

And then we spoke one last time, and we chose to end contact. To protect the dating relationship he enjoyed and to protect me from forever hoping there could be more between us. I could tell you about the difficult conversation he had with his girlfriend, though I didn't hear about that until later.

I could tell you how I cried. Silently, with very few to see or comfort me. I never posted about it. Only a very few knew about it.

I could tell you about the silence that stretched for weeks into months. I could tell you about nine solid months without any contact at all. I would occasionally ask mutual friends how he was. They were wise friends. All I would hear is, "He's fine."

We both went on with our lives. We both dated. We both grew. We both healed.

And then, though various channels (and NOT our mutual friend), I heard that his girlfriend had broken up with him a week after mine broke up with me. It was November when we kissed... and now it was almost the end of August. Nine months. I suppose I could look up the exact dates, but I think I won't.

I could tell you, though perhaps you wouldn't believe me, that I already knew something was different in his life. I could feel his energy again, in a way that I had not in the nine months since we'd had contact.


I could tell you about our mutual friend, the same one who introduced us in the first place. I could tell you about how I said, in rather fierce terms, that I was starting to interact with his energy again and that it was making me crazy.

And she asked me something gentle, and instead of the angry this-is-making-me-crazy response I'd been giving, it stopped me in my tracks and I really -felt- what I'd been feeling and fighting for a long, long time. And I said, softly, "I'd really like to see him again."

I could tell you about how we sat and talked when I visited her. She looked at me and she listened and she knew that it was time, and that what she'd seen long before was a true seeing, though I didn't know about that until later either. She's like that.

She supported and encouraged and hugged me. She fed me wine (lots of wine) and said, "You know, maybe you ought to call him."

And she said, as I hesitated in my fear, "You know, very few people fight for their loves the way you fought for yours. And even fewer have the opportunity to fight for a second love as great as the first. You have that chance, you know. Maybe you should take it."

I hear she did a fair job of shoving him along toward returning to contact with me in those few days, too.

Somewhere in there I sent him a text message and he answered and then, as I was walking the labyrinth, he called. A phone call I've mentioned before.

For two hours that night we talked, and I said all the things that I had thought for a long while and had been too frightened and sad to say. I stripped away all the reserve and the caution and the careful, thoughtful ways that I speak and I said in raw tones the things that I needed to say. Because it wasn't about whether the love could be acted on anymore. I'd gotten used to love that just sat there, useful as an old moth-eaten sweater. I just needed to acknowledge it, to speak its truth, just once. Just to know that I had. I knew the pain of doing that kind of thing. I'd done it before in other times and places.

Imagine my surprise when he said he'd missed me too. When he said that there had been so many times when he would be doing something and he'd think, "What would J do? What would J say?" Imagine my surprise when he admitted all the moments of attraction, of desire, that had haunted his own journey to this place. Imagine.

And our good friend helped more afterwards. "So," she said the next morning when she saw me. "How did it go?"

"It doesn't feel real," I said. "After so long, it doesn't feel remotely real. It feels like a dream." And she watched me as a small, hesitant smile wandered across my face. "I think he might like me."

And she nodded knowingly. "MmmmHmmmmmm."

So then she asked when we were going to see each other... and he -- my cautious friend who rarely does anything impulsive -- bought himself a plane ticket for that very weekend and on Friday, we met at the airport.

Five days after that return to contact.

And this is where the story ends for the moment. Because if I write about what happened when we met at the airport, it's going to take me pages and pages and pages.

This is still very new, still very young and somehow perhaps vulnerable. There are many obstacles. Distance, family, jobs, other commitments in our lives. And yet, what our mutual friend said was entirely true. Very few people have the chance to fight for a second love like this one. I think... that I will.

JJ,

How beautiful. Thank you, you are always making me feel good some how. I so believe in love, in all it's glory and power. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Kimmy,

Unconditional love I have for my daughter, as my parents had for me and for each other. It lives, it is just so hard to reach with your SO because of fear, and expectations and emotional attachment. But if you could strip all those things away, then what would remain would be unconditional love. This is what I believe.

"Fear is the mind-killer"

My W loves that, from "Dune".

I've got so many quotes about fear that I've used over the years - YEARS - I've been here. Favorite is from "The Power of Now". I've quoted that before, but not in a long while.

Another favorite is Peter Gabriel's "Darkness":

"I’m scared of swimming in the sea -
Dark shapes moving under me.
Every fear I swallow makes me small.
Inconsequential things occur.
Alarms are triggered,
Memories stir.

It’s not the way it has to be.

I’m afraid of what I do not know.
I hate being undermined.
I’m afraid I can be devil-man
And I’m scared to be divine.
Don’t mess with me my fuse is short,
Beneath this skin, these fragments caught.

When I allow it to be,
There’s no control over me.
I have my fears,
But they do not have me.

Walking through the undergrowth, to the house in the woods.
The deeper I go, the darker it gets.
I peer through the window,
Knock at the door,
And the monster I was
So afraid of
Lies curled up on the floor.
Is curled up on the floor just like a baby boy.

I cry until I laugh.

I’m afraid of being mothered,
With my balls shut in the pen.
I’m afraid of loving women
And I’m scared of loving men.
Flashbacks coming in every night
Don’t tell me everything’s alright.

When I allow it to be,
It has no control over me.
I own my fear,
So it doesn’t own me.

Walking through the undergrowth...(repeat)"

-ol' 2long

Those are cool lyrics 2long. You sure do like Gabriel. My new assistant love him too. She brought in a little stereo and some of his CD's to our office, so I am growing to really enjoy him too.

Been reading all the forgiveness stuff on Spacecase's site again. It's a process to be sure.