I'm climbing into my "anguished graycloud" costume.

You were already in it, this is just so we understand. I would like to thank you for sharing your heart with us. So often, people hide their feelings. So often, it's because no one cares. It is a big compliment to us that you share.

Often I read, and I know you will be OK, so I don't comment. That's (often) a mans way. GIRLS usually comment, so as to help a person get through their pain. It's one of the reasons we like to be with GIRLS.

This time, I wanted to comment, you are worth it. We all need to know it.


Today things took a huuuuge step forward in the direction of me owning my house.

Good. I am very glad to hear that. Really glad. You need some peace of mind. I hope the rest is resolved to your satisfaction. Soon.

And I was outside, because I had some private phone conversations, and it was a beautiful day, so I sat outside behind the lab and thought a little. And along the way, I had that inclination again, that urge to reach out to my ex. It did lead to this terrible anguish.

I have thought about this more than once as you have commented along these lines. Reaching out is good if the person you reach out to is repentant. If they are not, it hurts YOU, and it sometimes fuels their sense of entitlement. I don't know her at all. It could also ease some of her pain if you said things like "It's OK, I'll be alright." You will, but.......... she needs some pain before she can really heal, and I don't think she has felt that yet. Realize I am talking without really knowing her.


I won't explain much. No "baby please don't go" nonsense. Please. That's long gone. A more generous feeling, is what it is. But it's also a real load which I'm fixin' to carry a while longer still. I know so. My dreams are full of it.

Do you understand where this is coming from? What it is? why you might be feeling it?


Anyway, I fret and complain about it, but I am willing to bear the heavy burden, even if there's nowhere to put it.

I am wondering if this might be the way to an answer for you. If the door might be open just a crack.

As predicted, I asked for help from elsewhere, even if I don't believe in it. I asked for help because caring about my ex is unavoidable and hurts a lot.

Every thing can be proven by testing - or expermenting. If you pray, and God answers, you don't wonder, you know. Usually it comes bit by bit. Little by little. You can look this up - and you can test it to see if it's true.
Matthew 11:28 through 30.
Don't be afraid to ask in plain words. Voice your doubts too, and ask for help with the weight.


So I have a roommate now. Makes me less free to just pick up my guitar and HOWL, but it's a good thing, and hopefully we won't fight too much.

Hopefully. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Wow. Did I lose my point. Never mind then. Night John Boy.

To me, you didn't loose your point. You talked about something that is close, and personal. You didn't know how to voice all your thoughts. It's hard to even sort them out in your mind. Your mind went on to something else, but it will go back to this. It's in your dreams, that's pretty basic.

I know you are not afraid of it. Few have shown themselves to be as brave as you. It's hard to deal with things we don't understand.

AD and I can still use company. His flight arrives the night of Nov 4th. Not much expense other than the flight.

I still want to know about your new stuff at work. Sometimes you are too modest. But then, if I think about it, I am curious about something that is really not mine to ask about. Sorry. I am a very curious person, I think it's interresting.

Gray, you are better than you sometimes think. I suppose that is true for most of us.

It's your dreams that should guide your future, not your doubts. May it be so.

SS

Now SS, you better not make me cry. I'm a man, and my eyes have already produced that salty discharge once today, while I listened to the mothers of war dead tell their stories on the radio. Guess that's one thing I've got out of this. Before I knew what loss really felt like, I'd hear stories like that, and my sympathy was abstract. Now it just knocks me on my butt.


I don't understand. I've done everything I know to let my ex go. The dreams are all similar. I try to reach out somehow, and instead of showing any remorse or any desire to hear about my experience, she tells me I never had any right to be so badly hurt by what she did. I become frustrated and angry. I call her nasty names, or beat her up, and then wake up relieved.

But so those are the dreams, SS. Don't know what to do about them, if anything.

On a practical level, I probably should fire my lawyer.

Weaver, I think just the right amount!

GC

Well I am going to go a little bit further then SS has with this because it has been bothering me for a long time. I didn't want to touch it here again, but I thought about you a lot today and I just can't seem to hold it in any longer.

I know the answer Gray. I have iron clad proof that it is the way, and the only way. I am the proof, and I see it all around me now.

I will risk the flack from those on this board who believe that repentence must come before forgiveness, but they have it bassackward. Forgiveness must come first.

When you forgive someone, you become free Gray, free to forgive yourself, free to feel inner peace and free to look through the eyes of God at those who you harbor a grievance against. God sees all his children as innocent and wants us to as well, because that is the only way we can all find our way back to God's love. Through our innocence.

When you understand that she did not do this TO you, that she is simply another lost child of God trying to find her way, then you can begin the process of forgiveness.

For me I had to ask God to help me find a way to forgive, and I found one. And through these studies I have found so much more, I have found God again and my heart sings with love now. Almost overflows with it, as it did when I was a little girl.

I then asked the holy spirit to take my forgiveness and give it to my ex, and I know that the holy spirit will hold it safely until my ex is ready to receive it and then he will have peace too. For him of course he will have to bottom out first, as did I when he left and took my island property this spring.

I visualized myself hugging my ex and asking him to forgive me for all the many ways that I hurt him (if only in my thoughts), and offered my forgiveness to him and told him I understand why he did what he did, and that I know he did not set out to hurt me.

I have peace now Gray, and I practice forgiveness every chance I get.

We are so connected to each other that when we harbor a resentment for someone who has harmed us (perceived or otherwise) it hurts us, as if we had done it to ourselves.

I no longer want my ex back or to ever see him again really, but I do want to be free and filled with peace & love...and I am.

It's a process though Gray, and for me it took asking for help in forgiving many, many days before it hit me like a ton of bricks.

A very good book to read is called "Forgivess and Jesus" by Kenneth Wapnick PhD

Forgiveness is the ONLY way to inner peace and healing.

Weaver, I don't really disagree with you because I have worked on forgiveness for those that have never asked. In fact, I NEED to find a way to forgive my MIL before the hatred eats away at me.

GC, I see you wanting to learn about prayer, God or something. Any questions you want to ask or do you want books to read?

FF, I continue to learn and study.

I'm a person who looks at the details. In Christianity, the details are a dreadful mess. And when someone says, "Oh, don't worry your pretty little head about all that," well that does not cut it.

I have a developing belief. But I don't know what to call it. No, I'm not making up a religion.

A clear code of ethics exists in nature. It's something that with some effort and the right language I believe we could explain as a purely rational truth, almost provable mathematically. Accepting this does not require, nor does it conflict with, a belief in the supernatural. It's right there in front of our noses, plain as day.

Attempts to "prove" the existence of a creator are bound to fail and are fundamentally pointless.

Sorry, badly articulated. I tried. There's more. But I have to stop.

GC

On a practical level, I probably should fire my lawyer.

From what I have seen, good ones try to work things out before court whenever that can be done, but if you have to go to court, they understand war, and the fight the fight.

It's hard to know if you have a good or bad one........ for a while. Do you know by now?


SS

Everything AD wrote about me on his thread is true.

Refusing contact with my XW has put me in a terrible bind. The cost of being insulated from her is equal to the safety it provides. The situation hurts me and causes me to hurt her. I don't want to be stubborn, but stubborn is what I have become.

Don't see a clear way out of the weeds.

GC

gc:

I've been thinking about a lot of similar [censored] lately, myself. This morning, I woke 2 a weird dream about my relationship, and imaginary As that never happened, with projected outcomes that won't either. What a waste! I don't even remember the details of the dream, and thankfully I've got a deadline at work 2day, so it's not something I SHOULD dwell on, even if I could or wanted 2.

I've been thinking about forgiveness. I know so little about it, though at various times in the past 4 years I've believed I have known, or that I have forgiven even.

Spacecase once told me that the most life-changing thing he did after d-day was 2 take a radical forgiveness course. So much of what I've read about RF, though, has seemed a bit "out there" for my perceptions of my sensibilities, but a lot of it makes sense in a fundamental way.

From quotes from Colin Tipping, on iloveulovedotcom:

"Not so long ago, if one even mentioned the word forgiveness in victimized company you would see eyes glaze over. Forgiveness was not cool. On the other hand, laying blame and getting even was very cool. This is not surprising since forgiveness has been universally unpopular for eons. It has been seen to be beyond the reach of ordinary folk.

The reason it is so difficult and takes so long to achieve is that there is an inherent conflict in the notion of traditional forgiveness. In trying to forgive the willful perpetrator of what we see as a crime against us, the desire to forgive is in direct opposition to our need to condemn. Add to this the fact that the desire to forgive is an abstraction while the crime is (on the face of it anyway), an indisputable fact, and you will understand why forgiveness seldom prevails.

There is also the question of degree. The more you were hurt or damaged, the more the scales will naturally tip towards the need to condemn. Years of therapy will help of course, but so long as there is any residual regret or pain - true forgiveness will remain elusive no matter how much compassion we bring to the situation and no matter how much we try to “just let it go.”

How do we know if we have truly forgiven? The best way is to notice how we feel in the gut when we are suddenly reminded of the act committed by the person we were trying to forgive. If there is absolutely no reaction and we feel totally peaceful about it, we might assume we have forgiven. But how can we trust that? How can we be sure? Well, it's a good indication that we haven't forgiven if we get disproportionately upset when we observe something akin to what happened to us occurring elsewhere. The more upset we get, the more it is our pain projected. That tells us we haven't really forgiven and there is more work to do."


I hate it sometimes when I realize I've got a lot more work 2 do. But I feel better when I realize and take some comfort in the fact that I'll always have work 2 do - and the "work" can be enjoyable. It changes my perspectives in nifty ways.

You might even say, I'm a piece of work!

-ol' 2long

Heh, yeah you are.

GC

I love this!

And so every opportunity we have to forgive, whether it be forgiving ourselves for thinking a bad thought about someone, or forgiving another for cutting us off in traffic, etc -would be a chance to peel back one more layer, until once given enough chances to practice forgiveness we finally have found heaven (eternal,internal peace).

There would be nothing left to forgive because we no longer perceive pain/hurt and therefore it no longer exists, in the past, present or future. And we would be incapable of hurting another for the same reason. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

weaver:

As you probably know, RF involves more than that, even. Also from Colin Tipping:

"I remembered something I had heard many years ago. It was on a tape by Arnold Patent. He said, “forgiveness is not letting bygones be bygones. It is coming to the realization that, seen from the spiritual perspective, nothing wrong ever happened. Therefore there is nothing to forgive.”

It was in that moment that RADICAL Forgiveness was born. Though it is a very radical statement, it nevertheless made perfect sense to me in that moment. I knew exactly what he meant. I saw in that moment that as spiritual beings having a human experience we are co-creating our lives with Spirit moment by moment. And every experience we have is divinely planned and orchestrated for our soul's growth. The principal reason for our journey is to heal the dream of separation and to remember who we are. Our Higher Selves attract others into our lives so we can play out the drama of separation for each other."

That's the step that I believe I can understand, but I'm pretty sure I've been unable to implement in my own sitch (because I HAVE done the 'test' described by Tipping, and I DO still get upset - though to a much lesser degree - when I witness something similar to what happened "to" me).

I also still have somewhat of a hard time talking about spirituality, my own beliefs in that area in particular. I'm a very spiritual person, but I don't consider myself religious at all. And that doesn't make sense to many people here.

-Qfwfq

It was on a tape by Arnold Patent. He said, “forgiveness is not letting bygones be bygones. It is coming to the realization that, seen from the spiritual perspective, nothing wrong ever happened. Therefore there is nothing to forgive.”

I disagree with this.
Even from a spiritial perspective there is harm done - pain inflicted. I think when harm is done, and pain inflicted a wrong happened.

SS

Oh, and Hi Q, I've been wondering how you have been doing.

SS

The ego is so powerful that it takes constant work to overcome the ego's desire to keep us separate from spirit. Also there are many, many more forgiveness's which need to be done to peel all the layers away, until all that is left is the truth (our oneness with spirit/each other).

We are given whatever lessons in forgiveness which we need to accomplish this, hence our co-creating with spirit.

Jesus (the symbol we are most familiar with) was the first to attain total enlightenment, and therefore his oneness with God. ( Jesus in our culture, but not the same symbol in other cultures)

As far as having trouble with religion, it was like a lightbulb for me when I read in ACIM that our language is innept but all we have to communicate with at this time, and as language trying to define spirituality, you have symbols describing symbols which makes it twice removed from the actual truth.



We have evolved so much in the last 2000 years, however intectually we have so much trouble understanding, but we all understand at some level, on the level of the mind. If that makes sense.

weaver:

"As far as having trouble with religion, it was like a lightbulb for me when I read in ACIM that our language is innept but all we have to communicate with at this time, and as language trying to define spirituality, you have symbols describing symbols which makes it twice removed from the actual truth."

That was very well stated. Very well!

-ol' 2long

My house has been appraised. A milestone I've been preparing and working toward for a long time.

I don't think I did everything I could to make this appraisal come out how I wanted. I was, knowingly, too focused on small details. I fought this tendency, but I yam what I yam.

I won't hear how it came out until Monday.

After all this time, my work on the house is no longer related to my divorce.

Now the only pressure comes from the approaching cold, and from Jayne.

GC

After all this time, my work on the house is no longer related to my divorce.

So, stuff is resolved?

SS

I'm extremely depressed....


....I did a google search for the lyrics 2 "A Man Called Jayne" - arguably one of the funniest episodes of Firefly - but it ain't out there!

I was going 2 sing it 2 you 2 cheer you up, gc. But now I need cheering up!

-ol' 2long

2long,
You should be happy all the time. I see where they want to do a manned mission to Mars - About 20 years after you retire.

Oh well.

SS

No. Not resolved. I was working hard on the house so I could get a good appraisal, which will make my refi easier.

Lawyer redeemed herself and won't be fired. Someone's throwing a tantrum, but I'm not going to sweat it.

GC