All this talk about forgiveness...

It's a great thing, but I'm unconvinced that it's a universal solution to personal struggles.

I'm sick of trying to convince myself that I shouldn't feel hurt by the events that brought me here. I should, and do, and will. My values were violated, and my worst fears and doubts about myself were waved in my face by someone who said, "YES - it's all true - you suck". Hey, sometimes I do suck. Those doubts are valid. Otherwise they wouldn't be there. But so what? I know who I am, I'm mindful of my faults.

The events of the recent past are just the way specific persons decided to treat us. People with greater instincts for compassion and greater dedication to ethics wouldn't have done the same things. People who shared each of our values wouldn't have done them. Call that judgemental and unforgiving if you want. Call it anything you like. It's still true.

I don't really see why I need to forgive my former wife and wish her well. Seems like just another version of struggling against my feelings and thoughts. I think worrying about it just makes my nightmares worse.

Know what gives me comfort? Allowing my pain to exist, and letting it drift by when it comes. Instead of saying Oh no, I'm in pain. I have to change something about myself spiritually or else it'll keep coming back, it makes more sense to say, I'm in pain right now, and not for the last time, and call it good.

All that radical forgiveness business is interesting and it may have some value to people, but I have a hard time believing it's an answer. The greater the claims someone makes about a spiritual practice, the less inclined I am to believe it. They say radical forgiveness will prevent cancer. I doubt that very much.

GC

{{J}} just cuz it must be awful to see your child leave. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Weaver, I understand...it wasn't until just now that I realized that even though I have found peace with what happened to my DS, I have NOT forgiven the doctors involved.

A little more on forgiveness if I may:

I was listening to Dennis Prager for a few minutes this morning. He said in Jewish law God cannot forgive for sins against man that only the person sinned against can offer forgiveness. However, in my faith God forgives all sins when the sinner repents and asks for forgiveness however God still calls us to ask the person we sinned against for forgiveness.

So what do you do when the person(s) who hurt you continue to do so? Who seems to have made it their life goal to continue to hurt you? I don't think forgiveness can even be considered until the person at leasts stops deliberately offending you.

Comments?

The debate rages I suppose. Possibly you can forgive anything (not sure), but the one word hardly seems adequate to describe all the different circumstances that may exist.

I've probably posted about this before... consider the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa during the 90s. The effort created a safe environment where perpetrators and victims could reach out to one another. I believe the effect of this commission, obviously felt most acutely by the participants, was miraculous.

All the interviews I've seen with the guilty, the victims, and the families of victims have one thing in common: a contrite perpetrator.

But that aside, this is kind of a linguistic debate. Is forgiveness with reconciliation the same as forgiveness without it? Is forgiveness where the guilty person is sorry the same as forgiveness where he isn't? I think they're different.

People who post regularly at MB care more about forgiveness than most. IRL many perpetrators go on more or less okay without getting it, and many victims go on more or less okay without giving it.

Which isn't to say it's not something that should be offered generously and maybe even unconditionally. I just don't think forgiving your perpetrators is critical to your spiritual health.

And not forgiving them doesn't mean you don't have compassion for them.

GC

gc:

"The events of the recent past are just the way specific persons decided to treat us. People with greater instincts for compassion and greater dedication to ethics wouldn't have done the same things. People who shared each of our values wouldn't have done them. Call that judgemental and unforgiving if you want. Call it anything you like. It's still true."

Okay, allow me 2 call it "Bob." I don't think what you describe is being judgmental of people , but of behavior. And we all need 2 be wary of errant behavior lest we allow ourselves 2 be taken advantage of in the course of feeding someone's selfish lifestyle choices. People who not only do not share our values, but are so lacking in empathy that they're able 2 cause so much harm 2 so many, should first and foremost be put at a safe distance. Then, perhaps forgiveness might be in order.

But please never forget that forgiveness is for YOUR benefit first, then the forgivee, should they care or seek your forgiveness.

"None of us wants to admit that we hate someone...When we deny our hate we detour around the crisis of forgiveness. We suppress our spite, make adjustments, and make believe we are too good to be hateful. But the truth is that we do not dare to risk admitting the hate we feel because we do not dare to risk forgiving the person we hate."

"We attach our feelings to the moment when we were hurt, endowing it with immortality. And we let it assault us every time it comes to mind. It travels with us, sleeps with us, hovers over us while we make love, and broods over us while we die. Our hate does not even have the decency to die when those we hate die--for it is a parasite sucking OUR blood, not theirs. There is only one remedy for it. [forgiveness]"

"You can forgive someone almost anything. But you cannot tolerate everything...We don't have to tolerate what people do just because we forgive them for doing it. Forgiving heals us personally. To tolerate everything only hurts us all in the long run."

"If we say that monsters [people who do terrible evil] are beyond forgiving, we give them a power they should never have...they are given the power to keep their evil alive in the hearts of those who suffered most. We give them power to condemn their victims to live forever with the hurting memory of their painful pasts. We give the monsters the last word."

"With a little time, and a little more insight, we begin to see both ourselves and our enemies in humbler profiles. We are not really as innocent as we felt when we were first hurt. And we do not usually have a gigantic monster to forgive; we have a weak, needy, and somewhat stupid human being. When you see your enemy and yourself in the weakness and silliness of the humanity you share, you will make the miracle of forgiving a little easier."

Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive & Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve

"Forgiving does not usually happen at once. It is a process, sometimes a long one, especially when it comes to wounds gouged deep. And we must expect some lapses...some people seem to manage to finish off forgiving in one swoop of the heart. But when they do, you can bet they are forgiving flesh wounds. Deeper cuts take more time and can use a second coat."

Lewis B. Smedes - The Art of Forgiving: When You Need To Forgive And Don't Know How


I sure can identify with these. Particularly the last. At various times, I've thought I've forgiven my W, but then some silly event or reminder or trigger comes along and I feel the hurt all over again (like the silly phone bill).

This is definitely a process. For me, a protracted one. But not without its rewards. That's what keeps me going, the rewards - when I feel good about something I've said, done, or chosen.

-ol' 2long

They say radical forgiveness will prevent cancer. I doubt that very much.

Cures gout too -

Says SS with a straight face.

SS

Weaver, were we at the fire full time, we could discuss things in real time. It's a conversation I would like to have - but I doubt one night would be enough.

I'll come back in a few hours to discuss things a little more. You may be surprised.

SS

For me it is a process too, and in some cases I have to consciously work on it...I had to make myself think of all the good in Dan, and not let myself think of the bad...pretty soon all that was left was the good and it didn't hurt anymore, and I saw his goodness and now that is all that remains in my memories of him. I think of him now almost never & the sound of the ferry horn doesn't even hurt anymore, it's like it was another lifetime ago and happened to someone else.

We ALL are both good and bad.

That is a pretty mild example though, I have been working on forgiving bigger things which hurt more deeply and like Faith says...when it is something like what happened to her baby - well that is so big.

It's a choice to forgive just like it is a choice not to, but for me it is the only way I can live.

In a recovered marriage I don't think the BS has any right to stay in a marriage when he cannot forgive...that is just as heinious (sp) as cheating in my opinion. And I know that is why 2long said he must learn to forgive completely both if they are to recover or move on in different directions. (at least I think that is what he is thinking). Of course even in a marriage which didn't recover I can't imagine not wanting the same peace for someone you loved so much, even though they could not honor their vows and were weak of character.

And I believe that forgiveness comes first...then the other person is free from their own self-loathing to forgive themselves and heal, and yes maybe it is all at the level of the mind but if we are all connected then it is at the level of the mind which connects us. And I would never want to be the cause of someone else not healing, even if they had hurt me (like I said I have a problem where kids are concerned here and don't know that I could forgive if someone hurt my daughter, but I hope so).

Even at a young age I knew we were connected this way, I always KNEW that...I found a spiritual path which supported that belief, but I also know that it is not the one which works for everyone. There are a thousand different paths (which lead to the same place)I believe, but that is another subject and debate and not one any of us wants to be involved in I bet.

I have to see the innocence in people, maybe because it is the only way I can see the innocence in myself.

Gray, I am not writing letters (except to Dan) or telling people I forgive them, it is just something which happens at the level of my mind although I believe they will experience peace too.

And your sitch is very hard because of car4love and her babies...and because they continue to hurt her and because your ex never showed any kindness whatsoever. That's a tough one so I can see why you feel the way you do, and who am I to say you aren't right.

You were also married at a young age, for a long time, and your identity was very wrapped up in the marriage...So you didn't just lose someone you loved, you lost yourself and are now trying to reforge an identity with a whole lot of scars, self-doubt and pain. Not an easy road.

It's a personal choice for sure.

I always feel like when I write stuff like this everyone on this board thinks I'm a whackjob...so I duck waiting for someone to pounce and ask me to quantify. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But why? Why did WE have those people in our lives, if we are ethical and wouldn't hurt anyone else? That's what I struggled with...the "why was that person in my life"? I am a good person, loving, forgiving so why did I fall in love with a person(make that plural) who could do something so cruel?

For me it was more than once...so why? Just the luck of the draw? Just my bad choices? Or is there more to it? Are we in fact co-creating with spirit to bring us the lessons we need?

Who knows for sure, but I am tired of trying to figure out how to not make such bad choices again, instead I am trying something which makes more sense to me.

I mean it happens more than a couple of times and you have to start looking at why.

Weaver said:

How do you know what changes you could make that would change your life? How do you know where you are stuck and what you are doing wrong?

Weaver,
I when I was talking about change, and how we often stay in a rut, I was talking about me. That was me I was thinking about, not anyone else here.

I knew my marriage wasn't what it should/could be. I made my W cry sometimes. Later she stopped crying - that's even worse, just for the record. See, she had problems, and I was working on her and her problems. Or thought I was.

Turns out we can't change anyone else, even if we mean well. We can change ourselves, and hope they reflect our changes. If one is already married, and they change and their partner does not...............
It can be he11

From what I can see, it usually doesn't happen that way, but it can, and sometiems it does.

So I found MB, and I put a name to what I was doing. AO's, and DJ's. I changed, she changed, but only after my changes.

Someone who is single can change, and it changes who they attract, and hopfully who they accept.

I knew because she, the love of my life was not happy. I knew because there was somethign in the back of my mind that kept telling me things could be a lot better than they were.

God was prompting me, and for a long time I didn't understand what it was.

I began the changes long before I found MB, and I was making progress, but once I got "HNHN:, and "Love busters, habits that destroy romantic love" we made progress by leaps and bounds.

As I said, I could put names to what I was doing wrong, and understand it, and so I could change it.

It can be, and it is different things for different people. Marriage, Job, Problems with friends, Parent child relationships, Is there really a God?

There's a lot more, and I don't have many answers for you, but if there is some unhappiness, there can be change.

There are trade offs. Often a gain here, will be a loss there. Risk vs safety. Ease vs work. Known vs unknown.

It's hard to walk out into the darkness sometimes.

Now, there were reasons for my AO's and DJ's. None of this happens in a vaccume. I needed to forgive. You can't love someone you are always angry with. It's really hard to forgive when you are still on the recieving end of something bad. I wonder if Spacecase would be where he is had HE STAYED WITH HIS WIFE? I wonder if leaving her, and divorcing her opened the door for his healing. Isn't it much easier to forgive someone who used to beat us, rather than someone that beats us daily?

No, I have few answers tonight, but lots of questions.

Weaver, Don't put yourself down for what you say. You are trying hard, and you are a daughter of God. Translated, that's royalty doing their best. You can't get any better than that. Keep trying, just like the rest of us. All of us get some of it wrong, but also some of it right. As has been said, it't a process. What a great gift it if for the rest of us to be able to make this journey with you.

Tonight, I'll spend the evening around a campfire pit in my backyard with my W, and the twins. (Daughters, 12.)
We'll tell stories, and eat marshmallows, and have hot chocolate, and cookies. I'll think of all of you. Promise.

SS

Weaver, everybody does not think you're a whackjob.

I do - but I know some people who don't. Haw haw. Only foolin'.

I know exactly what you mean about things repeating themselves. I know someone who has problems in every job he gets. He changes jobs often. He quits, and carries resentments about the experiences. He talks to me about the experiences, often telling the same story over and over.

I'll say to him, "This is the Nth time you've had an experience like this. Don't you think there's a pattern emerging?" He'll explain the unique circumstance of each experience. His explanations are one sided, but they make sense, and he tries to be honest. Still, I get this nagging feeling. I think he's the ultimate cause of these problems, even though his (presumably truthful) descriptions indicate otherwise.

GC

Thank you SS...wow! I hope those in relationships read that...it only takes one to change the dynamics of a relationship, in fact when one changes the R has to change...it's simple physics.

For me I guess I'll fall in behind JJ's trudging...she's trudgin and I'll be plug, plug, plugin along behind. My mom used to say that - "just keep trudgin' along". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Yanno Gray, I used to think the same about you...but then I realized I was mirroring. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Really? How so?

GC

Oh I don't know but...well there was the time you...

And then there was the the time you said ...

And oh remember that time you...

What do you mean "how so", you are a bit whacky every now and then, and you know it...especially in your late night, had a "beer or two and a shot or three" posts.

Silly boy!

Hey can someone help me out here?

That would be GC playing dumb so he doesn't have to see you teasing him, Weaver. Somehow, it reminds me of Curious George, though I can't currently say how or why.

It's been a long few days, with much emotional energy shifting around.

And I've been doing my homework. Writing my Why We Love essay questions. While I was doing that, I came across Pope Benedicts Encyclical on Love, which you can read at the Vatican web site if you're interested.

Some of it is lyrical. Some of the rest is very complex. I haven't even made it halfway through (it's 26 pages long if you download it to a Word document).

Here are a couple of quotes from it.

"[T]here is a certain relationship between love and the Divine: love promises infinity, eternity—a reality far greater and totally other than our everyday existence."

"Eros tends to rise 'in ecstasy' towards the Divine, to lead us beyond ourselves; yet for this very reason it calls for a path of ascent, renunciation, purification and healing."

As love develops, it "now becomes concern and care for the other. No longer is it self-seeking, a sinking in the intoxication of happiness; instead it seeks the good of the beloved: it becomes renunciation and it is ready, and even willing, for sacrifice.

"It is part of love's growth towards higher levels and inward purification that it now seeks to become definitive, and it does so in a twofold sense: both in the sense of exclusivity (this particular person alone) and in the sense of being 'for ever.' Love embraces the whole of existence in each of its dimensions, including the dimension of time. It could hardly be otherwise, since its promise looks towards its definitive goal: love looks to the eternal. Love is indeed 'ecstasy', not in the sense of a moment of intoxication, but rather as a journey, an ongoing exodus out of the closed inward-looking self towards its liberation through self-giving, and thus towards authentic self-discovery and indeed the discovery of God: 'Whoever seeks to gain his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it'"

And on that note, I'm going to bed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Good night!

After reading this again, I realized that I need to know how Christians (and the Pope in particular) define renunciation. Hurrah! More research. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Weaver said: "I mean it happens more than a couple of times and you have to start looking at why."

I have this same question. Been thinking a lot about it, in fact.

I have only been with two women in my life. First was GF right out of college. We were steady for two years then decided to M. I found out she was sleeping around shortly after we got engaged and I called it off. A year later she asked to come back. I agreed, but I told her I wanted to take it slow. And a year later I find out she is sleeping around yet again.

Then I met FWW. I waited for four years before determining I could be safe with her. Yet she has done the same thing at least two times now, one being a decade long LTA.

Is it me? Are all women like this? Naw, it must be me. But I can’t for the life of me see it, whatever it is.

All I know is I am still 0 for 2.

Hey gray. Long time no talk.

Radical forgiveness, huh? I am one of those (usually termed) radical Christians. So here is my take (wether you want it or not).

I get VERY watchful of things like radical forgiveness. These kinds of "movements" tend to gain momemtum with a few examples of success. Sort of "works for me, and there are a few phrases in the Bible that hint about it, IT MUST BE A UNIVERSAL TRUTH FROM GOD!". One must be VERY careful before one says that.

We all react differently in different situations. Some techniques work for us, some do not. Case in point - look at all the techniques for quitting smoking. Why so many if one was truly "sure-fired..."?

You are EXACTLY right about your pain. The Bible does not talk about forgiveness equalling removal of pain. The purpose of forgiveness is to remove bitterness and worry.

If things your ex does bring you pain, it is because what she is doing HURTS. Forgiveness is not the answer there. Forgiveness is for YOU to get on with your life. To not fret over her actions. To not worry what she thinks. To help you divulge the tragedy that beset you.

But it's still gonna hurt. There's still gonna be triggers.

And you are right about that being "good." Pain over a wrong is a sign of compassion. Frankly, I would be worried if I didn't feel the occasional pang of pain.

Forgiveness is to remove stress. Sort of like marijuana, only legal. It is the means to combat obsession over a wrong. It is the stop-gap for righteous indignation.

As far as curing cancer - don't buy it. Except in the sense that the body DOES do less well with disease when it is over-stressed. So in the round-about way of lowering stress, I do buy it.

Radical forgiveness? May work for some, didn't with me, and I have a pretty strong walk.

******, gray, you're an artist. Don't you kinda NEED to explore feelings for art? I mean, where would we be, art-wise, if it weren't for that? (I wouldn't know. I don't do art very well.)

In any case. Nice talkin' at ya bro.

NCW.

Hey NC! Can you ponder my question of can you forgive when the person is still deliberately causing you harm?

Appy, my initial response was *no* not all women are like that just like not *all* men are cheaters either. sigh...there are lots of faithful men and women on these boards yourself and GC included (as well as NCW,2long, Binder..)

Then I had to stop and think but I cheated and I hate that it will always be a part of me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I am so not her anymore. I would never cheat again. LTA? Couldn't do it. How someone can live that life for a decade or more is incomprehensible. I would be exhausted just trying to keep things straight!

Are you doing better? Is NC still in place?

NCW, thanks for dropping in and talkin' at me.

I liked what you wrote about pain over a wrong being a sign of compassion, but I think it's also a good indicator of what you value. I think I read something like this somewhere: if you're not sure what your values are, just look at what hurts you. You suffer when your values come under attack.

GC