Passion:

Every WS goes through the same muddled thinking - they demonize their BS and desperately try to see their situation as unique. Typical, typical.

A "bad" BS is a deserving BS. "He/she deserves to have me step out. I've been hard done by; I deserve to step out." The reality is that very few BS are "bad". Neglectful, selfish, depressed even, but almost never bad. Sure they've done things to alienate the WS, but I'll bet my bank account that the overwhelming majority of BS felt as unfulfilled and empty in the M as the WS. What's the difference? The BS was still hoping or dreaming to have the WS meet those needs, whereas the WS had given up on that.

Very, very seldom has the BS intentionally done the things that the WS finds so offensive. Usually, the BS is clumsily trying to do the right thing; it just doesn't turn out that way.

I'm sure there are 2 sides to your story. You've given us yours; where is your H's? Could he speak of the things that you've done that hurt and alienated him?

Ah, but what about a more fundamental question - does it even matter? Does he even matter? Does he have any worth as a human being?

And that iss the crux of most WS posts here. They are so wrapped up in looking to validate and justify what they did that they forget the most important element - your spouse is a human being AND your equal. Their rights, hopes, dreams, and needs are very bit as valid and equal as yours.

Only, that validation reveals the whole flaw in "justifying" way of thinking: what goes around, comes around. Or, in Christian speak, "Do unto others".

The real issue is would you accept being treated (here and in the A) the way you've treated your spouse? Would you like to be betrayed, humiliated, invalidated and demonized? Would you like to be portrayed as an essentially "bad" person who got what they deserved by their spouses' betrayal?

The BS who are hard on you (and WS, too) are doing this to remind you of this, and to show that you are not more worthy than any of us. Your spouse, whom you've lied to, hurt, and essentially denigrated their entire existence is worthy of some basic human consideration.

The key is humility and empathy. We are not all perfect; we have no right to expect perfection of others. We should treat others as we would want to be treated. We should extend to others the same consideration and respect we seek. We should take a moment and try to consider the other's POV - "walk a mile in his moccasins" so to speak.

And, we should remember that we don't "get" from others before "giving" to others.

These last posting have to be the best messages I have received yet and I thank you. Last nite I ended up in St. Eliz's hospital, my heart was doing funky things. I am ok, it was giving out PVC's whatever that means and they had to give me a Beta Blocker and my blood pressure was 142/99. I think all of this is really starting to get to me in a bad way and I have made a few phone calls to talk to someone in my hometown. Thanks to all of you for your advice! I appreciate it.

Passion,
My husband said exactly the same things to me that you are saying to us. His OW was his friend for 25 years. They were in love before he married me 22 years ago. But, even though he said she was his soulmate, they were madly in love, meant to be together, given a second chance at love, etc. (And she was not married), as soon as contact ended between them, those feelings started to die. Now, he apologizes to me every day for the hurt he caused. He thanks me every day for standing by him. He shakes his head every time he thinks about how he allowed himself to create a fantasy that was real at the time, but without foundation. Have faith in the MB principles - they really work - just ask my FWH. He didn't trust it at first, but, was willing to give it a try. Oh, don't think it will be easy. He went through tremendous withdrawl from OW, cried alot, felt he could not carry on without her, but he persevered, the love for her died, and we have a better marriage now than we have ever had. Hang in there - your marriage deserves it. Rev.

Passion...good to hear you are doing OK. Stress, caused by all of what you are going through, can do that. Keep healthy.

Mizz...As a FWH, so desperately trying to rebuild trust in my W and rebuilding my M in the genesis of real recovery (if my W accepts my actions), I am terribly offended by your post. I have no right to be, but I am. Please don't generalize.

And out of curiosity, what advice would you be giving her?

Passion - Good to know you are serious here. There have been others that have come to this board only to mess with people so that's why I was a little bit leery.

Passion

I hope you are ok. Please look after yourself, try to relax.

Most of us have seen it many times: someone comes to the board, and it often takes a lot of time to convince them to take the right route towards recovery.

This is true for some BSs as well as WSs.

It can get quite frustrating for those of us who have been successful and only want to prevent further destruction to someone's family.

I admit I am one of those who sometimes resorts to tough love in my posts. I never intend to hurt anyone, but I know the fog can often be too thick for other methods.

It is incredibly satisfying when someone does have the strength to take action, and they often wonder why they didn't follow the advice sooner.

I sincerely hope you become one of the success stories.

Lots of love.

Passion:

You are in the same boat as my wife, well I found out everything from the hard way, reason is she came up to me and told me that she wants to divorce me, when I asked her what is the reason? she replied No More spark and she said that she dont love me anymore. First thing I asked is if there is THIRD party. She became so defensive and told me that I look at her very low. Well we've been together for 11th years and married for 9th years we have daughter gift from heaven 8th years old. How can you loose LOVE like never happened if there is no 3rd party. Well I dig, dig, dig, and I found lots of evidence but she still denies everything. I asked her to be honest? I am very Violent but I became so calm just to get answer. I told her that I just want to have an answer, she denies until I show that evidence and told her that If I keep on digging I will find more and I might do something really stupid and she dont want me to do something really stupid. Well good thing she admit everything and I was shock and I became so quiet and just gave her HUG and told her that thank you for being honest. Well she still trying to divorce me she choose the Affair over me, Read the SAA book and I stick on the Plan A. I know someday she will come back to me right now no matter what I do or try she will never let the door open. I just let her go cause I love her and she is my baby girls MOMMY. ( so be honest to your husband tell him the truth.

DO NOT LIE, THEY WILL FIND OUT ANYWAY...

PS. OM will never leave the wife he is just saying what you want to hear but TRUST ME he will never leave the wife, put that in your mind.

Liny, I'm having trouble understanding why you are offended by my post. I believe I stated that "some" here were the bestowers of grief and hostility to the WS. I didn't say "all". If people are still so upset with their BS or BS' OP, I would hope they could understand that their posts may be construed as less than helpful given the circumstances.
And Suzet, I'm not sure that I'll ever post my problems here. I will however, continue to read and study, and hopefully discern enough information to help me resolve the issues that I'm trying to cope with.
It would have been so helpful to have a place designated for WS. A place to gather, and hopefully have BS' that had surpassed the initial grief/anger stage and were really able to help those on the other side of the coin. I have read and found that this idea has been tossed around here and being that it's a Marriage Building site, some feel that a specific area would be glorifying those in the midst of an affair. I dare say that those that would have traveled over to such a site could affect the outcome of many relationships that are troubled where the WS seeks help, even before the BS finds out. Who for their own reasons need to try to understand what and why it happened. Coming to a place of their own volition and NOT because they were caught. Not to hide the fact. It takes a good bit to come on here and admit our own shortcomings. And, just for the record, unless we've been a WS, it seems unlikely that we would be able to imagine or empathize with the guilt, self loathing, disgust, or any other feeling that the WS may be trying to cope with. And perhaps the resulting loss could be frightening. Who knows? I don't presume to. I just look for answers.

Mizz

Mizz, Liny and I are both FWS.

I'll speak for Liny here and myself.

Liny and I have both been given nothing but support on this board. Liny's wife also posts here and we all support both of them.

I've never seen the need for a separate WS board. It's seeing both sides that is so helpful.

Jen

Mizz...thanks for responding.
The offense is self-inflicted--and goes along with why there shoould *not* be two separate boards.

kiwi said it short and sweet: nothing but support--even in my own setbacks, bad choices, and was still not being in complete recovery (until very recently), thinking I was above it all.

I do admire you for not posting and just taking it all in--it's difficult to stand on the sidelines. (And I mean that with no disrespect.)

However, that's where we--OK, I can't speak for all WS's--that's where I realize my shortcomings. I have a new perspective on fog, for me: I just thought I was above it all.

But it is so very important that we, as WS's, see what we've done. To realize the pain and suffering and abuse we have caused and generated. We need to see this. And we need to learn from that and make our choices based on past experiences. Yeah, the past is the past. But if we don't learn from it, then history means not a damn thing. The past doesn't mean anything. And we are never held accountable for we and we alone have caused.

This is so important for recovery. What does passion really want? Yeah, it's her decision--she still may waffle--she still may be "unsure" of her decisions. But, did you really expect BS's to not say anything? I don't want to be judgemental and refuse to be, except in my own sit and he11 I've created. But, IMHO, a WS needs to see this--having a separate board for WS's does nothing except create a bubble around the fog. Don't forget, it's our responsibility to regain the trust of the BS and make them feel safe again--not the other way around.

Don't protect her from the pain she's caused. This is the reality we, as WS's have created

Passion, how are you? I see you haven’t posted since last week Thursday… Please let us know. We want to help you and we want to see you and your M recover.

Suzet

Hi Suzet, I am ok and thanks for the concern I only use this site when I am at work not from the home computer so I am only able to write Mon-Fri. I am ok I have to lay off the upper body exercises at the gym I went to my chiropractor this morning and my two ribs were popped out on the left side in the upper chest area and he thinks that is what could have caused it! So I have to lay off the arm exercises. Thank you for your concern I appreciate it!

Passion, but how are you?

I didn't mean to diminish your feelings. That wasn't my point. You have alot to work out. But you need to start acting on some things. There's no other "way out."

I began visiting Marriage Builders two years ago, however, I have not been back for almost a year. I am a FWW who appreciates the comments made by Mizz, Snowbelle, Liny, Heroswife, and Lemonman. All have made observations with which I can identify for one reason or another and find to be very helpful, honest, and compassionate. Thank you for that.

There are VERY few posts on this board made by WSs. I realize I am making a blanketed generalization, but the WSs who DO post on this website are frequently met with a great deal of scorn from broken-hearted BSs...which is an understandable reaction. Please, please, please try to understand that the majority of WSs are here for help. We ARE trying to save our marriages, and in many cases we are simply trying to survive our lives. Yes, the "mantra" of the WS who is in the fog stage sounds the same as all the rest. But remember, most BSs have not fulfilled their end of the bargain either and have been participating partners in the decline of the marriage. "I'm sorry I...ignored you, didn't show respect, was selfish, didn't appreciate you, abused you, destroyed your self-esteem, etc" is often the mantra the WS hears from the BS. Marriage Builders is for both BSs and WSs who are in all stages of disaster and recovery.

Passion, my heart still aches because I had a physical and emotional affair. I have been divorced for over a year, and I still cry almost everyday over the loss. Affairs are cowardly. My husband and I made mistakes that weakened our marriage which culminated in my having an affair. The aftermath has been ugly and has left me a crumbled mess. At 35, I feel completely broken and lost. Once the fog of the "fantasy" (or what you feel is the replacement relationship) disappears, you'll see the reality of the situation. Even if your husband is a piece of s*** who doesn't care about you or the marriage, and you ARE better off without him...YOU WILL STILL BEAR THE PAIN AND SHAME OF HAVING HAD AN AFFAIR.

Quit your job and have zero contact with the other man. He is a troubled individual who is going through his own issues right now. You cannot save him, and he cannot save you. Move away. You're going to have to sell your house anyway if you get divorced. Do it now instead while you still have a chance to save your marriage. Tell your husband that you have to go to counseling. Counseling will not solve everything, but you need a mediator to help you through this stage.

At some point you and your husband may decide to get divorced. You'll both deal with it when the time comes, BUT DO NOT BASE THAT DECISION ON ANOTHER MAN. It will destroy you, your husband, and your children.

<small>[ November 22, 2004, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: tobs ]</small>

Tobs:

I actually LOVE to post and exchange ideas with ladies like you. FWWs on this board have given me a great deal of hope and support when I need it the most. I have nothing but praise for the FWWs in this board. MB with out FWWs like you would not be the same. I wish there were more of you around! Welcome back!

This is a sidetrack:

As a result of my wife's affair I have developed some insecurity and low self-esteem. I hate to feel this way as I was never like this. In any event this has given me a lot of insight into why men and women with low self-esteem seek affairs. I can now understand why Passion feel the way she does and I am also able to relate to my wife in a better manner.

<small>[ November 22, 2004, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Stanley568,

Thank you! I needed to hear something positive about myself!

And thank you for trying to understand the other side. Self-esteem or lack thereof greatly effects our behavior, actions and reactions to given situations.

My best to you and your wife.

Tobs:

You are a very young woman and I noted------ no kids from your prior marriage.

Why did you divorce? I guess this is easier to do when one is young without children. Perhaps, you can tell me what is like to be divorced in a nutshell. The reason I asked is that on D-day I was 100% sure I was divorcing my wife, but then changed my mind in view of kids (4 grown, one little). However, for several weeks I had internal struggles between reconciliation and divorce. I fell that Passion may benefit by hearing about what is like to leave. I may also get some useful info to reaffirm my decision to stay married.

<small>[ November 22, 2004, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Stanley,

Why did we divorce? I didn't want the divorce because I still loved (and still love) my husband, but he said he needed the divorce in order to have some control over his life and the situation. I put him through the wringer over the course of ten months by breaking the no contact rule several times. Ironically, at the time I felt like I had no control over my life as well. My behavior was completely irrational and out of character. Even though I still worked and performed as I always had...I even initiated going into business for myself, I cried for hours daily, had thoughts of suicide, hated myself, and yet I still obsessed over seeing the OM. I didn't even recognize myself.

My BS was at wit's end, and I do not blame him for divorcing me. We were never really in recovery because I kept breaking the NC rule. In my defense, my husband behaved wildly during this period as well which did not facilitate healing. He forced me to have sexual relations with him through means of ultimatums and physical force. He said hateful, demeaning things to me that I thought I deserved because of what I had done. In short we both continued to hurt each other after D-Day and despite some self-discoveries through counseling, we were never able to start healing together. It was a vicious circle and we were never able to synchronize our desire to have a healthy relationship. Of course, there is much more to the story and the issues that led to the affair, but that is essentially why we divorced.

One major regret that I have is that I granted him a "quickie" divorce my going to Las Vegas. Within two weeks the papers were signed and it was over. I would never advise this to anyone. We were both in a highly emotional state at the time. In addition, I was being medicated for depression and although it helped somewhat, I was still in a haze and far from normal. No matter what the case, for emotional and financial considerations I believe divorce papers should never be signed any sooner than six months.

I miss my husband, and I miss the life we had. We were married for 7 1/2 years, but I've known him for 15 years. We had a home, a life, a future, and we were trying to start a family. My family is completely disfunctional and so I was looking forward to building our own loving, stable family with positive traditions. Thanks for the encouragement, Stanley, but 35 doesn't feel so "young" when you're divorced and childless! It hurts beyond belief knowing that I will probably never have a baby. It's just one more miserable pill to swallow.

I'm certain divorce is a huge relief for some people, and in loveless or dangerous relationships I believe it is wise to divorce. I know some people for whom divorce was a very good decision. In my situation, however, I regret it 100%. My husband and I loved each other, we made mistakes, and now I will always live with the consequences. The "what ifs" are constant. The reminders are always there...I have forgotten nothing. Movies, songs, trinkets, photos, jewelry, furniture, legal documents are all daily reminders. I've tried to eliminate some of those triggers, but it's impossible to eliminate them all and painful to do so. Sometimes I'll use a verbal expression that I picked up from him and it will just click in my brain. It's really maddening. I've tried to move on. I moved 1800 miles away. I now live in the same city as my oldest and dearest friend and have her support, but I still suffer through this alone because it's a solitary aching. It's hard to know what to do with the memories. He's a part of so many of my stories and experiences. It's like 15 years of my life just disappearing.

Stanley, I hope that if you and your wife still love each other that you will try to make it work. I don't believe any woman ever wakes up and just decides "today I'm going to start an affair." She's confused and probaly doesn't even know how she got to be in such a dark place. If she has low self-esteem already, her affair has probably made it even worse. When my husband DID try to be understanding and loving toward me after D-Day, I felt even worse because I felt like a whore who didn't deserve his love. Just recognize that your wife's guilt can be a huge barrier. To some degree, I think I kept breaking the NC because I didn't believe I deserved another chance with my husband and so I sabotaged myself over and over. It's all so damn complicated! Healing is a slow, long process. As an individual I'm not even close yet, but I hope it's in my future.

I don't know if this will help you or Passion in the least bit, but maybe, just maybe...

By the way, tobs is an acronym for "tired of being sad!"

<small>[ November 22, 2004, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: tobs ]</small>

Hi ALL:

If I can only save my marriage I will do anything to pay the price. Everything I missed or everything I've done I will try to make it up with my wife. Yesterday I visit my wife's house to picked up my stuff and I asked her if she love the OM? She reply that she does love him so much and she said she don't need me anymore. I guess she made her final decision and she is filing for the divorce. I love my wife so much eventhough she admit that she loves the OM I will still always love her. This MB website helps me a lot on my DOWN feelings and makes my day keep going. Holidays is coming up and I will be alone in my Apt. and I think Holidays is the worst feeling I will get. But because of every body here on MB forum, I will be OK, the only thing I can do is to call my daughter and make sure she is OK with out me in my wife's house with her parents. I think when the FOG start clearing up my wife will be back in my arms again. I would like to say THANK YOU for every body that POST comment and HAPPY THANKS GIVING DAY.

tobs, thanks for sharing your sit. I'm in no position to give any advice, but, as an observation, it must be tough for you to relive your sit. Passion, I hope you are reading.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...and so I sabotaged myself over and over.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope and pray you will start learning how to stop beating yourself up. You seem to be a very insightful, thoughtful, caring woman. And you probably learned this the "hard way." Any WS could be there next. It's when we realize this.
And our actions afterwards. Just in your words, you seem to have started to find those actions. But you can't continually to beat yourself up. Does no good. Been there, and it's a struggle I deal with everyday too. The "what if's" and "if only's". Can't do anything about them now. But it's my actions now that will rebuild (discover) me and will rebuild my M. And it starts with complete "radical" honesty. Have you been with yourself? Again, it sounds like it. So, don't keep beating yourself! (See? Not advice: a demand! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Thanks for the kind words before. I've got a lot of trust rebuilding to do with everyone in my life. It's amazing what honesty will do!