</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by JanetS:
<strong> a naughty little thought I had Lemonman....

maybe a little slip of the scalpel while in the area of his ... you know ... nothing big, just perhaps a little nip on the nipper requiring a stich or two (that would be a bit uncomfortable on him, yes?)

It's not a funny situation at all, of course, but in life's traumas it is healthy, down the road, to make light and find humour. As they say "Humour is the best medicine". And no, I didn't spell humor wrong, I'm Canadian, and we use the English spelling of words...like cheque (check), neighbourhood (neighborhood), trunk (boot) LOL. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , trust me you would be shocked if you ever heard us in the OR or behind closed doors. Humor does play a big part in dealing with this kind of stuff every day. I have had to make "light" out of all of this plenty. I sometimes still can't belive this $hit happened to ME...it is unf-ing believable at times to me. Ohhh, what a life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

BUt...alas, I am still standing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . I am blessed in a way as I have my whole life to look forward to. I have the hopes of meeting a new woman (who deserves me) and the hopes of fathering children someday. Life sucks at times, but you deal with the hand you are dealt. I haven't had a good outlook on things in months. My own "fog" is lifting now,,,and clear skies are ahead.

LM

P.S. I just re-read this post and am ashamed at the number of cheesy cliches I have in this post. I should be shot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Cliches are fun ..so put the axe to the grindstone, get in gear, and keep your powder dry, it's a slippery slope my friend <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Noodle

lm,

In regards to your original post.

One month? You gave your wife an ultimatim and one month later there is this crisis with om in ER? Well, God did have his hand on that situation. LOL. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Nevertheless, it seems to me that you fall in the category of the "men that tolerate less"

Anyhoo, my fws had contact for 4 more months after d-day. But I listened to God and realized what I had been doing wrong, regardless of my H's wrong doing.

Anyway, its seems like such a short time and hard lines from you to your ws.

I hope that you can read about MB principles and perhaps apply them to your next relationship. Hopefully you will meet your next wife/girlfriend's emotional needs and it will all work out.

I know you disrespect all this continued contact. However, if I had not prayed and God had not answered my prayers and honored the changes that I needed to make then we would not be as far into recovery as we are. Sometimes justification for your actions does not wash with our Lord. Because I listened to the Lord, and what HE wanted me to do in my marriage, it has survived. I have the H of my dreams. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Finally. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But it took over 4 months, and then some.

I know your M is over and I accept that. But this is a wonderful site. I would just ask that you apply some of the principals on this site for your next relationship. It just might make it work.

And by the way, did you ever figure out what EN's you were not meeting of your xw's that you could do better at in the future? I am not in any way saying that the A was your fault. This was the WS choice. I am just asking what might haave been lacking and what you might do differently in the future.

Have you read hisneedsherneeds by Harley? Do you think it might help you in the future?

Just wondering. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Lemonman,
I read this while I was on my sabatical from the forums and just wanted to say kudos to you. You handled the situation that most would not want to and you did so in a profesional manner.

MIF?

Well Lemonman, it's good to know where you're coming from. Your story explains many things about you and your advice. I can see how you'd be a bit "bitter". (to say the least) You have an amazing amount of strength.

(((((hug))))))

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...I still contend that a lotof Harley's principles do more dmamage than good to a lot of well meanining BS. Just my opinion. I will never change your mind on that and vice versa, so debating the merits of the details of Plan A or whatever is not worth it. IN the end, I agree. Personal Recovery for me will be my salvation from this...not saving my marriage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, LM,
I've never posted to you before. I rarely post here anymore, just on D/D board. Your story and this thread were thought provoking enough to keep me reading all 7 pages.

I'd like to comment on two things. 1st, your ideas about character. I agree with you, for the most part. I've noticed a definite difference, even in the responses you've gotten here, between those who immediately renounce their A - even if there's some continued contact, they are fighting the "addiction" - and those we call "cake eaters" who lie in order to continue to have what they want without paying any price for it.

As a member of Al-Anon, I know addiction is described as a "disease" not a lack of character, but once in the program (AA, NA, etc.) the focus is on rooting out and eliminating "defects of character". People who stay clean and sober do have a change of character. I think it's the same for those who kick the A habit as well. These defects of character make us vulnerable and as humans, we all have defects of character. The only way to eliminate addictions is to eliminate these defects of character. It's hard work and those who recover their M's are the ones willing to do the hard work of change.

My 2nd point refers to what I quoted above. I've often found ways to misuse the info I've received both here on MB and from Al-Anon. I was afraid to let go, even after Steve Harley recommended it - he didn't think I should stay in an abusive situation and from talking to my WH, Steve realized WH wasn't interested in changing. WH has multiple addictions, including A's. My point is, it's not so much a flaw in the tool (MB/Al-Anon) as lack of skill and knowledge on the part of the user - which results from the things you mentioned such as low self-esteem (my own defect of character that I've had to work on, caused by continual emotional and verbal abuse, emotional and sexual rejection, and being blamed for all WH's bad behavior).

Anyway, thanks for the post. I admire your honesty, your conviction, your presence of mind in the face of disaster, your thoughtfulness, and open mindedness to others' points of view.

LM,
I think you are following Harley's principles. I think that it would be more accurate of him to describe his philosophy as ending bad marriages rather than saving all marriages. To a caller on Joyce's radio show on Thursday who found out that her WH was not a FWH, he said that recovery from a second betrayal is much, much harder. By asking you about OM when you visited her, your wife continued to show more concern for him than for you. I can appreciate why that situation would end all possibility of future reconciliation.

In Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders, Harley says that the commitment of marriage is the commitment of mutual care, not the commitment to stay no matter how badly you are treated. The point at which a BS gives up hope that the WS will change and make the commitment to care may vary from person to person, but I don't think Harley suggests that people stay in bad marriages no matter what. On the private forum, he has recommended separation for some couples (including me) and he counseled one woman to file for divorce and never be open to reconciliation. Never. That woman had uncovered her husband's five year affair and he had continues seeing her secretly, he had placed her as an aide living with his father, the OW ended up threatening suicide and having an ER visit possibly for a drug overdose...the whole story was surreal. Anyway, my point is that Harley doesn't tell people to keep hoping no matter what for as long as they can stand. Your point of view is very helpful to those of us who have struggled a long time trying to find some hope in what seems obviously a hopeless situation to others but not yet to us.

Cherished

<small>[ January 29, 2005, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

In a thread called SourPuss, I need a Reality Check, Please by fightingalone-again on February 20, 2005 11:03 PM you posted


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...This is part of the road to my persoanl recovery. I would be happy to tell more if people so dersire on another thred. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please do tell <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BW

Just popping in to say that I just read your story last night and was floored... speechless.

This morning I thought of something to say.

Many BS would LOVE the opportunity to stick a knife into the OP.

Not only did you get to do it,

But you got PAID to do it.

You earned his gratitude for it (one would hope),

You did the 'right' thing in an extra-ordinarily extreme situation,

You made very bold statement about your dedication to your profession that will probably become legend at your place of employment and inspire care-givers for generations to come.

Then I briefly wondered if it was possible to re-route the intestine to the oral cavity so that when he opened his mouth everyone could see that it was only sh:t coming out.

Then I scolded myself for having such a thought. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So there ya go. I also wanna say that though I often disagree with some of your stances, I have a huge respect for you that existed well before last nights reading.

Glad you're posting here.

John

bump

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BWise:
<strong> In a thread called SourPuss, I need a Reality Check, Please by fightingalone-again on February 20, 2005 11:03 PM you posted


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...This is part of the road to my persoanl recovery. I would be happy to tell more if people so dersire on another thred. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please do tell <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BW </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It will probably take me some time to update my "story". It has to come in due time for me.

There are alot of tools I learned along the way to heal, and that is still evolving for me. I will tell more of my story soon.

Thank you for showing interest in my life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM

LM,
I understand...and it certainly was not my intention to push.

Here's hoping for a complete evolution in your own time.


BW

PS I recently read your story and have found encouragement.

Hello Lemonman.
Thanks for leading me to YOUR STORY.

It is a sad story.

You were SO IN LOVE and SO HAPPY in the beginning.
Quote from your first post:
"I have dated a number of women in my life BUT NO WOMAN had ever made me feel so completely and utterly "in love". I was whipped and worshipped my wife"

That makes me feel very very sad as I am sure she felt the same about you before she succumbed to the OVERPOWERING temptation when she met the OM.

Have you read through this thread recently?
Have your heartfelt feelings changed at all since you first came to MB in July of 2004?
(Especially those regarding forgiving her?)

Have you had any contact with your x-wife since your divorce?

I think I read that your love stopped the night in the Emergency Room when she asked how the OM was?
Did your love for her really stop or were you just heart broken?

It really is reasonable if she was a nice person at all, that she would be concerned how he (OM) was since they had been in a bad car accident. I would think LESS of her had she NOT asked, wouldn't you?

P.S. You don't have to answer any of my questions unless you want to.

Mary I would like to respond to your little question about the asking how the om was, even though it wasn't directed to me. The timing or plain just even asking that question was inconsiderate of his(lemonman) feelings and frankly how the om was doing is none of her business once he was in a sense in a stable condition where his life wouldn't end.

LOl, Mary I am happy to answer your questions. Truthfully I haven't viewed this thread in quite a long time. It took me nearly 15 minutes to even find it.

As to your questions:

1. Have your heartfelt feelings changed at all since you first came to MB in July of 2004?
(Especially those regarding forgiving her)?

--> Yes and NO. I have softened greatly my stance on her and more importantly "forgiving" her. But not as you might think. You see, something that I had to learn in all of this, was that hating this woman (and OM) was a very energy depleting, soul killing, exhausting daily task for me. I could not "heal" untill I forgave her....but this had to happen for ME...not HER.

2. Have you had any contact with your x-wife since your divorce?
---> Yes we have had contact, but nothing of meaningful substance. I have stopped "loving" her in almost every sense of the word, so contact for me doesn't hold any semblance of meaning for me anymore. We have had idle "politicallY correct" chit chat when forced, but in reality, it doesn't matter to me, so I don't remember the contact with her anymore.

3. Did your love for her really stop or were you just heart broken?
----> Well ofcourse it didn't instantly "stop" with this incident..if only it were that easy. The love didn't stop for me that night, but any "true" future or meaning of "marriage" DIED that night. The "love" died in increments thereafter. Remember, love is a "verb".

4. It really is reasonable if she was a nice person at all, that she would be concerned how he (OM) was since they had been in a bad car accident. I would think LESS of her had she NOT asked, wouldn't you?
----> Mary, with all due respect, by the mere fact that you asked me this question, I am forced to ask you what "side" of the fence you "sit on" currently....LOL. I guess it is all in your perspective.

But seriously, her asking me that question was of great importance to me, and one of the most honest acts of her life. She gave me any final answers I needed by asking this question. You'll have to "infer" what I mean by this. It honestly would have NEVER crossed my mind whether she as a "good person" or would have I thought "less of her" had she not asked about his condition. Actions DEFINE HUMANS, NOT WORDS. In reality, there was not ANYTHING she could have done for me to think "less of her" in that moment. It would not have mattered in a negative sense for her to me. In the end, I am happy that she asked, but NOT for the reasons you may think.

I hope this answers some things for you. I am more than happy tp help you understand this, and perhaps help you clarify and explore the issues that you obviously have yourself and that you are trying to get help with by being here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

LM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I understand your words.

Oh my goodness. Lem, I was so taken aback by your words...your pain...your ability to do the right thing..and think clearly..I am actually rather in awe of it actually.

I think sometimes it is harder to hate...you were running on adrenaline...and that night you deep down allowed your deepest self to take over...you knew your M was on life support, and you did all you could do...you ended it imho, with utmost dignity.

wish there were more like you out there honestly.

totally understand how you said there was an actual day, a time, a moment when the love died. I too had that...I had that awakening. when it just dies. and you are left with the aftermath.

my bro in law is a surgeon. he had a 3 week affair a few years back with his first assist...end of residency, and he was working ungodly hours and my sis was a working mom with two very little ones. they healed nicely as he had that "moment of clarity" in his life where he saw everything rushing away from him...it was right after I separated from xh ironically...same timeframe.

You are a MB hero. You are one of the "recovery stories" here...so am I.

You asked me why I could not take my xh back even if he does the whole repentance, minister, recant issue...the man I loved is dead. simple. i had the same moment of death in my marriage. There were several "codes" called on it...but I believe the defining moment was when I was in court on valentine's day hearing the quote read before a packed out courthouse..."I lived like a rock star and loved every minute of it"...then the attorney asked my then wh, "is that a rolex on your wrist Mr. Darth?" and then went on to show how he had NOT paid us child support or ss in several months and I had just resumed my career after being at home for 3 years...having had my little son.

I was in a strange state, no family, few friends, almost totally destitute financially, xh had destroyed my credit during the last 3 mos. of separation before court, he had spent the visible assets in las vegas (30 k in 1 weekend), and I had been served 2 eviction notices. I had perfect credit before our M and before the first court hearing btw...I remember seeing my xh smirk on the stand. I remember it all as a haze...same way I felt on day when they buried my father almost six years ago...same type of haze. I remember tears falling down my face. It was surreal. Then walking out of court like a prizefighter, the verdict was in my favor, if there is ever a winner really in divorce court. People were patting me, slapping me on the back. Saying things like "give em ******" and stuff like that...and he was boo'd as he walked out of court. Actually boo'd.

from the time I left him to the time I was first in court, I lived in fear...fear of being worried I could not make it on my own with ds in a strange town. fear of being broke. fear that I was not good enough in my profession (stupid I know)...just basic self doubt. ran on adrenaline alone for first year being legally separated and dealing with the multiple court appearances. but it was the first one...that was the ending of the real love...the beginning of my season of mourning.

You are so brave to come here and bare your soul. my lord, this must be so tough for you. both you and I have had our share of dramas to overcome...and somehow we're still standing.

but yes, there is a point of no return. where we realize that the affair had NOTHING to do with us...it has everything...EVERYTHING..to do with our WS..and usually for very stupid reasons independent from us. I realize that now...it certainly took a bit longer for me to realize it than you. Feel that had I been working longer, that part of "me" still intact rather than being isolated as a sahm in a strange state, I'd woken up earlier and recovery started much much quicker.

sometimes I don't get the whole thing here. It is so different being on the other side...where we see the past much clearly...it always is when you're reflecting isn't it? we wonder why so much is allowed? I wonder why I stayed as long or even did as long of a plan A as i did? in the end, I think it's ok b/c my conscience is clear...one day my boy will know, if he doesn't already, that his mom did all she could to keep her family together but that his dad just had other plans. and in the end, I am good w/that b/c I want to be with somebody that "gets" me...truly gets me. and is not afraid of somebody who wishes to grow...and is not afraid of somebody who is sure of themselves..

and I am also thinking you were right. the guy I am dating..did something I will not write about here, did it yesterday, and I am thinking you may be also right about the dead in the water comment. but it has NOTHING to do with any other person. i am at that point where I am good w/being either single or not. just waiting for that moment of clarity...the GOOD moment of clarity quite possibly should i meet the right one...or maybe just a moment of clarity, a good one when I realize I would rather jsut be single? who knows. at least have learned my heart is totally open now. it's taken a good long while to get here.

your xwife has lost one great man. sorry she had to learn this lesson the hard way.

btw...I am saving up now to begin working on my mater's (mmsc) at either end of 06 or beginning of 07. need something more to tackle...time to make life a tad more interesting!

Hi Lemonman.
Your 'saga' is so interesting that I thought I would bring it to the top of this MB forum this morning.

Peachy wrote you a nice letter.

You did GOOD answering my questions.
I have some more.
Again, it is up to you whether you answer them or not.

I imagine the OM knew that it was the H of the woman he was in the car accident with that did the surgery on him. Did he thank you?~eek~ Did his wife know he was with another woman (the surgeon's wife) in the accident? Was she able to forgive him? Are they still married? Did your wife re-marry? Do you have a special lady you care about now and that cares about you in your life?

Ok, that is all the 'Enquirer' questions for this morning. ~lol~

Good grief what a story, LM. I'm amazed that you were able to keep it together to perform such an involved surgery so successfully. Maybe that's what a surgical residency is all about - grace under pressure. Now I'm humming the tune from the Harlem Globetrotters cartoon....

No contact is so important. I have a good friend whose H had an affair. In my friend's case, her H immediately dropped the OW like a hot potato because he wanted to save his M. His family was the most important thing to him, and discovery of the A clarified the issue. She tells me that things are better now than they ever were.

In my case, I had ended the A years before my H found out simply because I couldn't look at myself any more. An awful feeling, knowing you're lower than a rat. I thought I could just hide things, and change my way of being. It worked, until...

I wound up coming clean with him after he heard a half-truth from a former friend this summer. I just couldn't hide anything any more, and he was insistent that I tell all or that was it. My best friend was my intermediary. In the intervening years since the A, I had given him all the passwords for my email and cell phone because I never wanted to be able to do something so awful again. He never wondered why I did this, because he was much too wrapped up in his own space and activities, part of what led to my crummy state of mind, not that it excuses anything I did. He's so much more clued in now, so much more willing to spend time with me, that it is truly a great thing. I choose to look at the positive.

My H and I have both agreed that unless there was immediate non-contact, there is no way either of us could persist in a marriage in competition with an OP. From reading LM's story, the deception is the worst thing. It adds insult to injury.

I know that there is one person on the board who still misses her H and would take him back even though he has been living with the OW for many months now. While I respect her decision to live her life in the way she sees fit, I know that I could not do that, nor could my H. It would be a deal-breaker. Perhaps we are not as strong as she.

LM, thanks very much for your story.

lemonman I am truley in awe. I am so saddened by what you have been through. I just can't imagine any woman looking at any Om when they were M to such a man as yourself. I am proud to say I know you and have read your story.

Lem you need to relize we all make our own decisions for our lives. You made yours and I would have done the same as you. Maybe I would not be strong enough to have operated on this OM. Who is to say how we will react under such circumstances. But you did and did honorably. I actually feel sorry for your exW - she is a fool. Once a fool always a fool they say.

I hope and wish for you to find another W someday when the time is right. Once who will take great pride in holding your arm and appreciate the gold she has found. Peace Lem.

lem, although your comments cut right to the bone I still respect them and consider what you are saying.

Your story is defenitely "unique" in the typicalness of A.

I'm glad that you have recovered to a point where you happy with yourself and the decisions you have made.

Keep posting since BS's need all the help they can get.

Thanks!