Lemonman's story - Marriage Builders® Forums

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OK folks, I have been on this MB for a few months now and felt that I should finally share my story. For some reason I could never do it before, but I feel I can now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

WARNING: THis is a long story and I apologize if it doesn't "flow very well" ,there is so much to say and I am not great with the "written word". For those of you who can stomach this, I welcome you reading this.

Well, my story starts out like most others here. I met my wife when I was a surgical resident and we married during my residency. My STBXW was my "one" true love.....or so I thought. We had a storied romance (as many here also proclaim <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ). I have dated a number of women in my life BUT NO WOMAN had ever made me feel so completely and utterly "in love". I was whipped and worshipped my wife. Things were great for the first few years of our marriage. We became the "envy" of many couples and many friends (oh how that would change <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )Our problems started like in most other marriages. I was working alot and with a change in my salary came a whole new world for us. We lived in a bigger house, drove better cars and belonged to a country club...all of the things that "we think make us happy". With many of these "things" came greater pressures. My STBXW and I grew apart as I worked harder to live a life that "we thought we deserved".

Like most infidelity acts, I felt "something wasn't right" with my wife. My wife was suddenly seeing friends that she had not seen in years, she was going to places that she had not been to in years. ALL BS "know this feeling". It is a "stab in the heart", utterly sickening feeling that we deny for as long as we can to protect our hearts. My STXW was in a very long co-dependant and dysfunational relationship with the man she was with before me. THis was the kind of relationship that was volatile and had a lot of break ups and make ups. YOu all know the type.

HOw I found out was pretty typical. We have matching cell phones and I took hers by mistake one day. Well, it doesn't take much to guess what happened next. I found a message from him to her that CLEARLY spelled out that she was AT THE VERY LEAST in a EA. I stewed about this for a few days thinking of what to do next. I was completely and uterly f'ing devestated. We had "it out" and I confronted her with the info. SHe was shocked and admitted everything...(so she said at the time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )....including a PA. Well, I was shattered. I actually vomited violently when she admitted it and actually blew a blood vessel out in my eye with my retching...it looked hideous actually. Well, this all happened last spring. We went to MC and I cut way back with work. ( I was doing a Plan A of sorts without even knowing it). My love for this woman was so strong I would have done ANYTHING to save this marriage. MY MIL is a great woman who I have grown to love like my own mother. She was my rock during all of this. She always felt like I was the man who saved her daughter from a miserable life of partying, drugs and her EX boyfriend.

Well, like anybody in recovery, things were great right after D-day, but when that high "runs out", the realities of the marital probelms surface. I told my wife, that I would do anything that she ever desired to save this marriage (including quitting medicine) if she gave me her word that she would NEVER see the OM again and have no contact. IN hindsight I now know this was irrational and desperate behavior on my part. SHe did give me that promise. I told her that if she ever broke this promise to me that I could never forgive her again and I would end the marriage. She KNEW the dead seriousness of this statement from me. I was willing to forgive her affair, but she had to promise me fidelity forever from here on out.

Fast Forward one month later and I myself was in a "fog". MC was going ok, but the counselor was not that great to tell you the truth. SOmething was "not right", but I told myself that it was my paranoia. Remaining married was more paramount than my self dingity and self respect.

One night in May of this year, I was on call and sitting in my office reviewing a power point lecture that I was to give to the residents the following week. I recieved a page from the ER with 911 in front of it. IN my hospital that prefix before any page is extremely urgent and everything that you are doing should be dropped for this. IN my line of work EVERYTHING seems urgent, and as such a 911 page is EXTREMELY unusual for me to get. As I headed down to the ED, I anticpated some huge MVA with a long night of surgery ahead of me (not so bad I thought, I was rested and just had a cup of coffee). I walked into the ED and a nurse who I know well looked at me with the look of someone who had seen a ghost....I knew right then, that this HAD SOMETHING to do with my wife. I don't know why I knew, but I just knew.

I walked into the trauma bay and saw my wife lying on a gurney with a head laceration. It wasn't that bad, and she was conscious. I was kind of in a drunken daze taking all of this in. I thought, "Thank God, she is OK" Well, a curtain away I saw what the probelm was....THE OM. They had been together in a car that was hit by a bunch of teenage girls. The OM was severely injured with very unstable vital signs. My wife looked at me, and said "I'm sorry". DEspite her injuries (minor actually)I think she knew at this moment in our lives what all of this meant. For the rest of my life I will never forget this moment and the look of shear and utter sorrow in my wife's eyes. Well, the next 10 hours was kind of surreal experience for me. The OM suffered life threatning injuries. I made a decision at that moment that I sometimes truly question. I took him to emergency surgery and ended up in the OR for the next 6 hours. He suffered several serious internal injuries including a lacerated bowel and ruptured spleen. I removed a good amount of large intestine and actually had to create a pouch on his abdominal wall (colostomy bag). I also removed his spleen and sewed up a part of a lacerated liver. He should have died from his injuries with the amount of blood that he lost. It wasn't me who saved him, but I believe a higher power. I have seen patients with far less severe injuries die and yet this OM didn't.

WEll, I imagine many of you can imagine the shear and utter devestation that I felt during all of this. I still don't know looking back how I got through that first night and was able to perform. Even when I think about it know, I actually get a fast heart beat in anxiety about it. Now, many of you may question the ethics of me taking the Other Man to the OR as "my patient" knowing that my wife was/is in a extrammarital relationship with him. There are times when I wished to God, that I would have asked someone else to take him to the OR. I should have recused myself..but I didn't. YOu may all think this is very arrogant, BUT there is not a surgeon in this world that I trust more than myself. Yes, I know that the rationality of this is questionable, but it is the way I feel. AT that time I could NOT let someone else take this case. I wrestle with this decision a lot. I played a part in saving the OM who murdered my life as I knew it. Can you all understand this? I sometimes wish God would have taken that poor basttard because at least I know that his pain and suffering would have been worse than mine. Yes, this is all irrational thinking, but it is how I feel.....well I should say "felt".

MY wife put our marriage, our life, my life, her life and my career on the line for this affair. SHe put me in a situation to lose my career. If things would have gone bad in the OR that night who knows what the hell the fall out would have been. We will never know. THe OM lived......and to this day I am not sure how or why. The next day I went to my chairman and withdrew from the case and spilled the whole story. There was never any fallout from all of this, but there could have been. EVERYONE knows what the "deal" was that night, but it remains the big white elephant in the corner of the room.

I ended going to my wife the next day and staying with her and holding her while she recovered. It was my way of mourning our marriage. SHe awoke and in sobbing tears asked about the OM. It was defintely at that time that I knew that our marriage was over <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I don't hold out the anger and did not end the marriage b/c of my career being placed in jeapordy. That was not it at all. My wife looked at me eye to eye and lied to me again and again and again. She placed her affair before everything else in this sacred life and for that I can never forgive her.

WHen I first came to this site I was a very angry, malcontent man. I still am at times, but am healing. I hate so much to see the BS go through what they go through for these WS. I truly think any person who commits adultery has character issues. I don't buy the argument that so many of you do who state that "it is all fog, it is all alien behavior" "it is not really them". I think many of you need to say this to rationalize to yourselves why you stay with these WS. I think AT TIMES when many of you praise a BS FOR "fighting for their marriage" through humanly intolerable behavior, it is actually weakness and cowardness that makes them stay. I don't always see it as "being strong" It is a lot easier to stay in a $hitty marriage than leave it. This is not always the case. but that is how it is a lot of the times around here. Maybe I am wrong, but that is how I see it so much.

I think self esteem PLAYS SO much a role in these situations. I think many people here think so litle of themselves that they will tolerate near anything to "stay married". Their marriage defines their life. They fear too much on being on their own. I understand we are all different but this is something that I wrestle with so much on here and it gets me in trouble a lot of the times. I don't completely buy the premise that affairs come about because of EN's or whatever not being met. There are MANY MANY men/women who cheat "just because". MANy men cheat on their wifes after a new baby comes into their lives. Many men/women continually cheat because they need the "ego" boost. This may all have NOTHING to do with the BS. I think far many people cheat becasue of character issues than people admit on here. ONce again, just my opinion.

My story is certainly not the worst on here (there are many more tragic on here including other children being born, STD's, bankruptcy, etc..). BUt to me, this has been a trajedy <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> , as my marriage died because of this. My love for my wife died that night in May. Many people may question me why I can't forgive my wife and try and reconcile. I can't in my heart of hearts do that. For a while I felt very guilty about this when I first came to this board, because I could see many worse trajedies than mine happen to BS and they continue on and try to "recover" their marriage (there is even a woman here who has forgiven 2 OTHER CHILDREN !!!!!!). I have since reconciled with these feelings. In this life I know that I will never have to face my maker to answer for my actions in this divorce. I know that my decision to divorce my wife is justified. I am a good man who is not defined by my marriage failing. I gave my wife everything and she betrayed our sacred marriage, she betrayed my honor and her honor. This affair and divorce has been an ego shattering, pride swallowing, sickeninig time in my life....but it is a time of spiritual awakening for me. I still contest that nothing good can ever come about b/c of an affair. It is times like this that defines one's life. I am by no means perfect and have erred more times in my life than I care to admit, but I can look at myself in the mirror and smile at what I see. I can and will survive this. As bad as things have gotten with this, I am surviving. Many of you who feel what I feel (Mschucter, Kjb23, etc..) WILL survive also.

I am sorry if this was too long, but this post probably got out f'ing hand. I feel I could type all night. There is obviously more to this story, but the meat and potatoes of it is in this post.

I sincerely thank you all for letting me be a part of this community. I may see things differently from you all and not be a MB "zealot", but I still always root for each and every one of you. I only want the best for you all in dealing with this kind of trajedy.

THank you all for taking the time out of your life's to read this.

P.S. Many of you may wonder why I have the nake "Lemonmon". Well, it is a nickname from my youth. I had a Harlem Globtrottters basketball jersey of Meadowlark Lemon growing up and always wore it when playing basketball, and the name "lemonman" has stuck with me ever since. Yeah it is cheesy I know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ December 05, 2004, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]

Thanks for your story. You should write a screen play based upon it... I'm sure it would do great!

I too share a lot of the same ideals as you seem to, although I'm in a bit of a different stage in my personal "disaster" than you are.

Keep posting, differing opinions is what makes this place great!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Miker:
 Thanks for your story. You should write a screen play based upon it... I'm sure it would do great!

I too share a lot of the same ideals as you seem to, although I'm in a bit of a different stage in my personal "disaster" than you are.

Keep posting, differing opinions is what makes this place great! <hr /></blockquote>WEll, I never though of it like that.....LOL. It is all much more tagic than I spelled out b/c many people have been hurt over this. THE OM has a wife and children, and the parents and family of everyone has suffered so much over all of this. There would be no value in writing a screenplay on such a tragic story that does not have a happy ending yet... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thanks for reading.

Lemon,

Thank you for for the trust and spirit in which you relay this seminal event in your life. When I told my story months ago, it helped me face the truth about my emotions and character. I hope that this also helps you.

[ December 05, 2004, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Cymanca ]

Wooooowwww...Great story. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

lemmonman,
Good post, i agree it could make for a good book or movie, but who wants to get royalties on someone elses tragedies. I can relate with the part when you had stayed with your wife and when she was stable first thing she ask about was the OM.
My ww also became very protective of OM and his life. Really sent my heart to the basement.
Hang in there, Your thoughts and idea's about this whole affair thing and why Ws do what they do, i sometimes think and wonder about as well.

jets

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by zizzycool:
 Wooooowwww...Great story. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Great story ?????

I hope noone sees this as a "great story". I don't think any of these stories are "great". I feel kind of different here now. Part of my strength on this board has been that my story was "unknown". Does anyone ever feel kind of "naked" when their story is told. I know that I had to share my story and now was the time, but is has left me kind of bare. ANy thougths on this?

Well...i like that part where you found both of them in ER...my jaw dropped reading that part...then when you save OM live...now that is a huge big thingy to do. You are a great person...you deserve better.

Lemonman,

A very sad story indeed. Thank you for sharing this. I know it could not have been easy to open up the hurt and pain again.

Lemonman,

Your story is a very sad one, like most infidelity stories on this board. It doesn't matter whether or not you buy into the whole MB methodology, but what does matter is the emotional support you've given to others who are hurting.

Now if you had chosen the user name 'Curlyman' instead, would that have meant that you were as bald as a billiard ball? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

TMCM

I also thank you LM for giving us some insight into your emotions and you life. I also agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Last time I checked America was still a democracy. Also as you eluded too, there is only one Judge and he is just. None of us here have the right to judge each other. This place is a community of support, and 2x4's when the occassion arises. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
 Does anyone ever feel kind of "naked" when their story is told. I know that I had to share my story and now was the time, but is has left me kind of bare. ANy thougths on this? <hr /></blockquote>It is kind of difficult to expose yourself like this but I think you'll feel better doing it. I'm such a friggin' blabber mouth now, I have to really be careful I don't get myself in trouble. But I do it because it makes the pain go away. Not sure exactly why, but talking, writing, sharing, with others helps moves it out of obsessing in my brain. Don't really know how else to explain it. I have a support group that I share my thoughts with as well which I also think is a wonderful environment and very therapeutic.

Miker

Lemmonman
I mostly lurk hear because I get answers from reading and I dont have alot to say at this point
but, I like to read your post because it gives this place a kinda balance,
Mainly Im sick of being mistreated because I still
love a man that walked out on me after 12yrs and going through Invetro to have a baby at 40 to give and give and give and even when times were good kidding myself that I matter as much to him
as he does to me. I can no longer treat him good
while he treats me bad. I dont need this pain anymore so anyway It has alot to do with you can read and read on this website and get great answers without even talking to anyone because you never know what will strike a cord in someone to give them the clarity they need to take a direction that is good for them.
thanks for sharing

Lemonman,
Thank you for your story. It is surreal. To think that you saved the OM's life, or at least helped him live through his injuries. I don't know if I could do that. I hope I could, but can't answer the question, not right now. Luckily it's not likely to be a question many of us have to face. You must sleep easily.

I think it does hurt to open up, but it can be good too. I've read many of your posts and sensed your strength and pain. It's good to know where people are coming from in this forum.

[ December 05, 2004, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: haywire ]

Lemonman,

Thanks for sharing your story. I am sorry that your wife hurt you so badly, it is a pain hard to desribe, isn't it?

I think that the OM lived to protect you. You took him to surgery, if he had died can you imagine the fall out? Even if you had done everything possible those rumors of intentional death would have been flying. This way you come out with the respect of your co-workers. Everyone knows how hard it was to do what you did. I know you have more strength than I would have had. I also know that in times of emergency that sometimes you can't just let someone else do it. In our hospital only one surgeon is on call.

I agree that self-esteem plays a big part in affairs. Mine was totally gone afterwards. I am lucky in that my husband has completely changed. The man I have been living for twenty years is gone. He has been replaced by a kinder, more gentle and loving man. It is almost like I divorced the man he was before and remarried someone else. I still have difficultly dealing with the aftermath of everything. I am also 100% sure that I would never go through this again.

You know what you can and cannot get over. You were unable to take further betrayal from you wife. She took that gamble and lost. That is her loss. I wish you the best and I enjoy reading your posts.

Cathy

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by haywire:
 Lemonman,
Thank you for your story. It is surreal. To think that you saved the OM's life, or at least helped him live through his injuries. I don't know if I could do that. I hope I could, but can't answer the question, not right now. Luckily it's not likely to be a question many of us have to face. You must sleep easily.

I think it does hurt to open up, but it can be good too. I've read many of your posts and sensed your strength and pain. It's good to know where people are coming from in this forum. <hr /></blockquote>YOU know, I used to have trouble sleeping thinking about this. I actually had internal anger about saving this OM. I know that sounds nuts, but it is the truth. HE has since written me a 4 page letter expressing his sorrow and asking for forgiveness for his and my wife's actions. He thanked me for giving him a seciond chance at life..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I can't say this really moved me. I don't want to be made out to be a "great man" because of all of this. I did what I was trained to do. I think there is alot more to this obviously, but I still wonder about this all of the time. I hate that [censored] for what he did to my life...but I can forgive him for this, I think right now I hate him more for what he did to his wife and kids and family and my wife's family. THere has been so much pain and devestation that has rippled because of this situation. It is sad how two people can bestow such a hardship on others. FOr that I am so sad. I think I can and will get over all of this, but in the wake of their action is a wife and children who are still reeling from this. SO f-ing sad. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

My story isn't completely written. I don't know the fallout from the "other side" (my WW had an affair with a MM) but I know it does make me extremely mad that my WW screwed up someone else's family too. I guess its maybe somewhat my own guilt (in a weird way) that our screwed up marriage could have screwed up someone else's. Or maybe it was vice versa? Who knows but its doubly terrible any which way you slice it. I just wish it all hadn't happened to start with...

Miker

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by boobyprize:
 Lemonman,

Thanks for sharing your story. I am sorry that your wife hurt you so badly, it is a pain hard to desribe, isn't it?

I think that the OM lived to protect you. You took him to surgery, if he had died can you imagine the fall out? Even if you had done everything possible those rumors of intentional death would have been flying. Cathy <hr /></blockquote>Cathy:

I think about this all of the time. This is one factor that made me see how truly dead my marriage was. My wife put me in this situation. I look like the hero, but I know deep down inside the coin could have been flipped and he could have died. I know that it was NOT MY DOING solely that saved his life. THis is why I KNOW For a FACT That there is a higher power in this life. YOu are right, he lived to protect me. I know this and to this day it shakes me. Thank you for your kind comments.

LM, the labyrinthine ways in which infidelity breaks hearts never cease to amaze me. The demons of unfaithfulness are surely Satan's cleverest and most Machiavellian.

Yours is another true story which , like my own, would be too far fetched to include in a soap opera.

SO many people are hurt by infidelity....I feel as sad for them as I do for vitims of crime and famine that I read about, yet they ( we) are all deliberate victims of infidelity.

Recover mate. You are already stronger, and will be stronger yet.

{{{{LM}}}}

Well, I think the internal anger is perfectly normal...considering the thoughts that sometimes run through my head. It would be a total turnaround to be in a position to SAVE the life of the OP. But you did your job the way it should be done -- without personal interference. That is strength.

It is so sad that innocent people are badly hurt by A's. Your compassion for the others is testament to your sensitivity.

"The test of success is not what you do when your on top. Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom." - Gen. George S. Patton

When I read your story, LM, I remembered this quote.

I imagine that night in the ER was a "hit bottom" moment for you. Call it training or whatever you want. The fact is you bounced...and you bounced high.

I have always repected your insight, views and that you call 'em like you see 'em. Well, there's one more thing to add to my "reasons to respect LM" list <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Seriously, thank you for sharing. I find that opening up and sharing here is very helpful...even if just to me. I'm glad you've stuck around.

Thank you for everyon'e comments and support. I now know that posting this story was the right thing to do. YOu are all marvelous human beings who I pray for. My life is better since meeting you all. ANd to think I found this board in error on a search on google for something totally unrlelated.......I wonder if it was not an "error" at all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

In error? Nope, divine intervention! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Lemonman, what extraordinary, tragic circumstances that have brought you to MB. The paths that we have travelled to get here are such complicated tales of woe. Do you and your wife still talk and does she still she OM? What a painful time this must have been for all of you.

I'm glad you told us your history. I have loved reading your sarcastic undertones in response to many people's relationships. Your decision not to remain married is your own personal choice. No one here will judge you - we all have our boundaries. TT.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tummytuck:
 I have loved reading your sarcastic undertones in response to many people's relationships. <hr /></blockquote>Undertones?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

My dear LM,

Thanks for sharing your story. As painful as it was and is, you have helped many with this thread and all your other posts.

The internal pain and anguish that most of us come here with is undescribable, yet in time most of us learn to put things in perspective to a size we can handle and find out life does exist outside of the one we knew. Being able to step out of our once comfort zone into another life is a big step for many. But is can and is often done whether we like it or not.

I suspect your learning and growing will continue at a safe pace for you. You sound like an honest person who is willing to face life's challenges. No superman but sometimes pretty close, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You showed us with your experience how that even when the WS hits the BS in the worst possible way, the BS struggles to survive. In most cases the BS survives better than the WS does.

You were and are able to bounce back stronger and quicker than most. Still you clearly are not out of the woods yet.

The road to personal recovery is long and hard but you will take what you have learned and make your future a better one.

Your story was truly appreciated. A bit suspenseful but certainly worth the read.

All the best. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tummytuck:
 Do you and your wife still talk and does she still she OM? What a painful time this must have been for all of you.

<hr /></blockquote>WEll, we talk but not much. THe "fall out" from all of this has been utter hell for her. SHe has lost friends, family, and her life as she knew it over this. THere is not anyting I could do to make it worse for her. SHe would "want" me back but even if I thought it was genuine (I do not by the way)I would never take her back...NEVER. However, I have decided to forgive her for this and was planning on doing it soon face to face. I think deep down she is a good woman and can still be a good woman, but she has many many character flaws that allowed her to do all of this and for that reason we could never have a "true marriage" in my mind.

SHe does still talk to the OM as he is going through a divorce now and has 2 young children who are "dying" watching the fall out from all of this.

LM

double post......deleted. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ December 06, 2004, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: lemonman ]

LM,

I have read several of your responses and your espoused dislike or even distain for people trying to recover the marriage. So I had not bothered to respond to your posts. But, having read your story, I wonder if you realize you did what many here are trying.

You did give your W a second chance and had she been willing to try and rebuild the marriage you would have considered yourself in plan A and then recovery. However, she continued that A and you decided to end the marriage. I think you did so for very good reasons and surely it felt "right" for you to do so.

But I hope you will continue to read and post here and come to realize that this site is here to encourage people to do exactly what you did. IF you love them and want the marriage as you also did, THEN you must do your best to try and recover it or you would never forgive yourself. Recovery often does take the BS to realize what their contributions could have been to the marriage. But, as in the case of your W, it may not work.

I would imagine that no matter what else you think You are happy that you gave her a chance. And as much as you might regret that things have turned out as they did, YOU KNOW you gave what you could.

In this sense you are getting the FULL essence of this site. Harley never claimed ALL marriages could or should be saved, but that more could be IF people would be a bit more introspective about their roles in the marriage and the motivations of their WS. Indeed in the 5 almost 6 years I have been here reading and posting that is what I see. Many marriages still fail, but many make it that would not. So the systems does work as planned.

On a final note, I think you were able to save the OM for a completely different reason. He lived to see the distruction of his family, the pain in his children's face, the devastation caused to your soon to be exW, her family and his. He has to look to you the man he betrayed as the man that saved him and I think as the years go by that burden will grow in weight.

In a very odd and unexpected way, you have been granted the ultimate revenge. It was not revenge that you sought but by the fact of your skills, you willingness to take the risk, he owes you big time and there is no way for him to repay you.

There is a saying <blockquote>quote:<hr /> The best revenge is a life well lived. <hr /></blockquote>You have that chance. As a final note, all of this has no doubt changed your view of what is important in life, it is not money or things is it?? These are NOT bad things but they can be distracting from the truely important things can't they?

LM, I hope you continue to heal, and that you find the ULTIMATE revenge...happiness in your life.

God Bless,

JL

Lemonman,

Thanks for sharingâ€¦ Iâ€™ve read some of your other posts as well, but this story will help people better understand where you are coming from on this forum. And Iâ€™m sure sharing all of this was/is therapeutic to you as well. Youâ€™re story is very sadâ€¦but it also gives a strong message of hope and strength.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
I know that it was NOT MY DOING solely that saved his life. THis is why I KNOW For a FACT That there is a higher power in this life. YOu are right, he lived to protect me. I know this and to this day it shakes me.<hr /></blockquote>God sometimes works in very mysterious ways... Certainly there IS a higher purpose for all of this. I believe part of Godâ€™s plan with all of this was to use YOU as an instrument in His hands to give OM a second chanceâ€¦ A chance to do introspection, surrender himself and take responsibility for his own wrong choices and actions.

God Bless and take care... You're much stronger than you think! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Suzet

[ December 06, 2004, 03:04 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]

I enjoyed reading this Lemonman. Thank you for sharing it. I understand your feeling naked, even though this board is anonymous.

I held my breath when I read that you were OM's surgeon. Even though his injuries were so severe, it could have been a real mess for you professionally and legally had he not survived. I understand your wishing that God had taken him, but have you considered that maybe God was sparing YOU? Then, again, OM had a wife and children. Maybe you were the only one there who God could work through to save their dad?

Do you mean that your name isn't because you want to become a sourpuss? I guess your real reason is better. Have you ever seen the Harlem Globetrotters play in person. I did when I was a kid. It was a great show.

Thanks for sharing Lemonman

I too am glad you shared. Now I can understand things better. It's sometime hard to comprehend the overall "tone" of a poster.

There are natural difference between WS/BS/OP, but when a BS has difficulty understanding another BS...it confuses ME, specifically.

I have more to say on this, but I want to put something constructive about my observation.

BIJ

Hi Lemonman,
IÂ´m new around here.I am very sorry for your unfortunate experience. I find I do agree with lots of your positions.
Just wanted to suggest a couple of ideas that have helped me in my so far "short" experience with infidelity:
1. God seems to look out for me (too), at least thatÂ´s the way I feel, and therefore I thank him every night. It has occurred to me that maybe he has a plan for me in which my husband is not included. So maybe this marriage is not meant to survive.I will do what I can, what I believe is right to save my marriage because so far I havenÂ´t seen any "signs" that it is not meant to be. But maybe in a few months I will finally know what the result of this unfortunate situation my WH has created is.
2. I have read forums for the wayward and the OP. I would hate to be them when they come out of the fog. Not only do they suffer as horribly bad as the BS do, they ALSO have the guilt!!!! which is like a multiplying factor for all the bad feelings. Reading those posts was very important for ME.
3. The fog is real. I feel like IÂ´m living with a stranger. When I first read about the fog, it immeadiately explained my WHÂ´s weird behaviours, the way he dresses etc. So I could stop worrying about each and everyone of those strange things, which meant that I could really concentrate on things that will make a difference when and if he ever comes out of it.

YOU will recover, have faith in God and ask him to make you strong to be able to continue doing his work here on earth. You were faced with VERY difficult situations BECAUSE you could get thru them and YOU DID!

Lemon,
Wow. I do have to say that you are a strong person for what you were able to do that night in the ER. I also have to say, that your feelings about the BS are very true, IMO. It is EXTREMELY hard to hear, and even harder to act upon. I think we (I am one of them) feel that our life is defined by our marriage. We would be failing if we ended it. It has a LOT to do with self-esteem...
I love your input onto the MB board.
Bless you and your recovery process..
Danielle

LEMONMAN-- <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
oh MY!! Thats the saddest and most ironic story in the world!!! I feel so ,so bad for you Lemonguy.
I can see why you were so blunt with your first posts here. What you had been thru its something that will make any man go crazy!!
You give your wife a second opportunity in the marriage and then you end up saving the life of that scum bag.
Lemonman, your wife most feel like s...!! What she did to you was the most cruel thing in the world. Gosh, to end up in the ER with the OM.
It looks like a movie script.
I think you have great strenght to have come out a winner out of this most unfortunate situation.
I admire your straithforwardness, your strenght,your dignity handling your wife. You did more than enough to try to save your marriage.

One day she will look back and she will see what a terrible mistake she did with you.
You are right about people that stray having character issues,.I ,have many! But still, it is not an excuse for doing what I did.

I am so sure you will find a woman of great strenght like you and you will live happily ever after. You have a lot of compassion under your "tough" words to us FWWs.

It was an eye opening experience to read your story. It brings self awareness and reality to what I did to my husband.

As you are finding out there is a "light" at the end of the tunnel. You are almost there.

Take care Lemonman

MYRTA

lemmonman----the happy ending is simple....

YOU-----AND WHAT YOU NOW DO WITH YOUR LIFE!

Lemonman,

You can't say the story doesn't have a happy ending, it will have the kind of ending you choose. If you choose to make your part of the ending happy, then it will be happy.

You cannot choose happiness for others.

I'm probably somewhere between you and the typical BS you mention. I won't put up with WW's crap and won't just take her back.

I have pretty much ruled it out as a matter of fact, I've been hurt pretty bad.

Not that I want revenge, but I do want access to our YD and relief from the debt she helped create. She is free to go, she just can't take all the good and leave the bad.

Off to write my own happy ending,

TB

Lemonman:

postcall this morning I read your story. It is sad, very sad what happened to you. I admire your decision to divorce your WW. I wanted to do the same on d-day.

It seems you have no children. Many BSs here stay because they want to give their M every possible chance before taking away their children's father/mother.

Like you I firmly believe that nothing good can ever result from infidelity. All this talk about having a "better M" after recovery...yes, maybe you can learn to communicate better, but the trauma that was caused discovering that your best friend was having an A with someone else outweighs everything.

I have been in survival mode for the last 2 1/2 years. Just living every day and remembering to breathe. It still hurts like h###.

People here at MB come and go. I hope that many recover. The MB principles make a lot of sense if BOTH spouses are willing to follow them. If it is only one spouse and the other one continues lying then it is better to walk away. I hope for you that you can hold on to that strong feeling in your heart that divorce is right for you.

One advice to you: be careful when you post specifics about your situation. There have been people on these boards who collect information on members (MBs: remember the "Dustkitty" problem). Don't get into trouble with HIPPA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

All the best,

Lemonman-

I wish I knew what to say. I feel so much for you right now. the pain jumped out at me, I felt it. You have lived through so much, yet find the strength to move ahead and look for better. You are putting yourself first and doing what you need to, even though it is hard.

How you were able to operate on a man that was $crewing your wife, you must have been going off pure adrenaline. I know when I found out I went on auto-pilot so to speak until I had my kids saftely tucked away with my mother, and then I collasped.

I have always had respect for you, now that has grown.

Hang in there Lemonman.

I am truely sorry for your pain.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Iceprincess:
 One advice to you: be careful when you post specifics about your situation. There have been people on these boards who collect information on members (MBs: remember the "Dustkitty" problem). Don't get into trouble with HIPPA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

All the best, <hr /></blockquote>Yes, I agree. There is so much more to the story that would have made it more identifiable, so I think it was anonymous enough. I could not really get any more specific as I agree, HIPPA could be an issure here, although I doubt it. Anyways, thanks for reading the post.

Lemon-Man
JL said:

"In a very odd and unexpected way, you have been granted the ultimate revenge. It was not revenge that you sought but by the fact of your skills, you willingness to take the risk, he owes you big time and there is no way for him to repay you."

I am convinced (with few exceptions) that folks that engage in extramarital affairs have character flaws. Wayward women may have low self-esteem and wayward men are predominantly selfish and manipulative.

I agree with you on one thing, before the affair starts there is no fog and the WP and OP make conscious decisions to cross the line at a time when there is no addiction to the A.

Let me change the ER/OR scenario just a little bit:

Pretend that the OM is the surgeon having an affair with your wife.

The ambulance brings WW (your wife) with minor scratches and the BH is moribund (in this case that would be you).

Do you think a surgeon with the typical character flaws of an OM would go the extra yard to save the life of the BH? If you think about it the death of the BH would be convenient for the affair-------- donâ€™t you think?

Lets face OM is deceitful by nature and now he has the life of the BH in his hands! SCARY!!

BTW, if I had been in your shoes I would have done everything to save the OM's life. Thank God the OM lived! The OM will ultimately be your wife's biggest nightmare!

[ December 06, 2004, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]

Lemonman -
Your experience gave me chills. During college I worked in the ER nights. One night a wonderful friend came to the ER with a bullet in his brain. The emotions are indescribable.
You have lived through everyone's worst nightmare. May your higher power bless and comfort you.

[ December 06, 2004, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: believer ]

Lemonman,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> THis is why I KNOW For a FACT That there is a higher power in this life. YOu are right, he lived to protect me. I know this and to this day it shakes me. <hr /></blockquote>You know, my husband thinks that the other woman was put in our lives to make him realize that what he wanted and needed was what he already had. He kinda thinks that her death was simply due to the fact that her purpose in life was complete.

I understand how this higher power can shake you. In other circumstances, another surgeon could have been the one to take the page. You would have found out about them being together and you never would have had to touch him. Wouldn't that have been easier? I think the same thing, couldn't my husband have moved out and then realized that he wanted me? Why did it have to involve a relationship with someone else for him to decide that I was worth something to him. (Long story)

I know that there is a positive lesson to learn and personal growth in every thing that happens to us. Have you figured out what it was that you were supposed to learn? I am still trying to figure out what mine is.

Cathy

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Stanley568:
 Lemon-Man
JL said:

BTW, if I had been in your shoes I would have done everything to save the OM's life. Thank God the OM lived! The OM will ultimately be your wife's biggest nightmare! <hr /></blockquote>YOU know secretely I think you are right. With his living, she forever will be linked with him. SHe has to face herself everyday knowing she helped break up another marriage and have 2 young children lose their intact family. I have at times been consumed by guilt for what happened to the OM family and children (they lost their house due to his extreme finanacial neglect to pursue my wife). I don't know why I feel guilty I just do, almost like my XW was a family member and she did wrong so that I need to feel bad also. I have been giving money to the OM's wife and children (through a unknown third party) so those kids can have some kind of X-mas. This money doesn't mean $hit to me (I have enough) so if it can bring a few hours of joy to these kids and wife then I would be happy. The biggest heartbreak for me is when I hear about those kids in such pain over this divorce and the depression that their father has went into. It is all so sad. The lies and deceit of an affair go so much deeper then the 2 people involved in the affair.

It always amazes me how clinical skill and knowledge can take over in the most trying of crisis....

Sometimes for a milli-second in all the chaos you get distracted when you make eye contact with a peer...and in those seconds see your own fear reflected in their eyes....

It is not till finished that your knees shake and the tears come....
whatever the outcome....

thanks for sharing....

many continual blessings to you lemonman..
though it is already evident how blessed you are...

Godspeed on your continueing journey...

ARK

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I could not really get any more specific as I agree, HIPPA could be an issure here, although I doubt it. <hr /></blockquote>I don't see any HIPPA violations. There wasn't any patient identifying information given. Everything was very vague and generalized. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Wow Lem, Thank you for sharing your story. It does open you up and makes you vulnerable. You have done EXACTLY what you have needed to do in your situation. I can't begrudge a BS who decides to D. The only thing that kept me in my M was the kids.

And thank you for helping the OM's family out. Money can make such a HUGE difference in the life of a family teetering on destitution.

Your posts sometimes irk me, but that has to do with me, and I am working on my life...
I think of myself as a very open-minded person, not prone to making sweeping remarks about groups of people assuming I KNOW what a group of folks should or shouldn't do, what they are feeling, what they are thinking...and parts of your post get my hair up because I think you are doing just that. But, I am NOT that kind of person, and make sweeping generalizations, and am working on it...learning to be humble.

Thank you for coming here. Is it hard for you to ask for help? It is for me, but it does come easier being anonymous...not sure why. I wish for you....PEACE.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by boobyprize:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I could not really get any more specific as I agree, HIPPA could be an issure here, although I doubt it. <hr /></blockquote>I don't see any HIPPA violations. There wasn't any patient identifying information given. Everything was very vague and generalized. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Not to mention that HIPPA is a US thingy and lemonman, I believe, is not a US citizen.

TB

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
 [Not to mention that HIPPA is a US thingy and lemonman, I believe, is not a US citizen.

TB <hr /></blockquote>Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. I am infact a US citizen...LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[Not to mention that HIPPA is a US thingy

HIPPA is a satanical thingy...created by the new world order rank...to divide and conquer...and promote isolationalism and create an environment in which mind-controling drugs and treatments can by further perpertrated....

hows that for a monday am conspiratory theory...
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

spin it baby....

ARK

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
 [Not to mention that HIPPA is a US thingy and lemonman, I believe, is not a US citizen.

TB <hr /></blockquote>Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Ok, call me confused, it wouldn't be the first time.

But of course, I could just be trying to throw the Feds off track.

{edit} which now dovetails quite nicely with the above conspiracy theory {/edit}

Carry on <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

TB

[ December 06, 2004, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]

Crikey, the whole thing sounds like an episode of *ER.*

If I may ask -- how did your XW and OM happen to be brought to your hospital? Coincidence?

I enjoy your posts, too. I'm not much of a success story, but I too often feel that some folks here stay too long in Plan A. I don't think I've ever read of a case where Plan A worked by itself without going to a cold hard Plan B.

Maybe you should change that sig to "Plan *B* away!"
Mulan

Lemonman,
You helping out the other family is such a wonderful thing, and doing it anomously (?) shows how true and genuine your heart really is.

Oh what your wife gave up!

By the way great game yesterday (watched it while I was painting), I am so happy the Eagles kicked the packers [censored] <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> The Vikings played so poorly- but you creaming the Pack keeps us tied for first place in our division!! Yeah <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mulan:
 Crikey, the whole thing sounds like an episode of *ER.*

If I may ask -- how did your XW and OM happen to be brought to your hospital? Coincidence?

I enjoy your posts, too. I'm not much of a success story, but I too often feel that some folks here stay too long in Plan A. I don't think I've ever read of a case where Plan A worked by itself without going to a cold hard Plan B.

Maybe you should change that sig to "Plan *B* away!"
Mulan <hr /></blockquote>Well, LOL, now that I think about it, I can see why people would think this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (maybe the screenplay is a good idea-)although this post maybe makes it seem more dramatic than it really was. As for why they came to my ED....It is the ONLY major trauma center in the area, EVERYONE in this 100 mile attachment area comes to this center for trauma. I don't think it was a coincidence at all. It is where anyone would go.

As for my sig....I really don't believe in the PLan A the way it is practiced on this MB. Maybe I should change the PLan A to Plan B away...I will take it under consideration. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Are you sure this is all a true story?
You saved OMs life and you also help the OMs family with money but "no one" knows?
Boy, I think you should be canonized pretty soon!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FrederickGirl:
 Are you sure this is all a true story?
You saved OMs life and you also help the OMs family with money but "no one" knows?
Boy, I think you should be canonized pretty soon!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>LOL, you know I am afraid everyone is getting the wrong impression here. I gave a few hundred bucks to a pastor of the church of the wife of the OM and they gave it to her. I don't feel like I saved this guy's life. He has since needed another Operation to reverse his colostomy bag, and other things. I think this is kind of getting out of hand. I didn't want to post this story for fear of this exact thing happening. I can honestly understand how some people would be like WTF?, but honestly that is ok. This is more about trajedy than good doing. I would never expect to be cannonized for "doing my job". Giving 500 dollas to a woman in need of something good in her life is not a big deal. I would like to think that many people would do the same in my shoes. Like I said, I can never be as good as many of you who can forgive multiple infidelities and still save your marriage. I am not that strong, and this is something I freely admit to. It is all perspective.

Forgiving many infedelities does not make us good- it makes us dumb (okay it would in my case only-please no one get mad at me). What you are doing is an unselfish act- no desire for anything in return. You have made mistakes I am sure, but you see a woman and two small children who's world was ripped apart by a self-centered man and your stbx-wife (I will refrain from the name calling on her, since she was your wife). You are helping where you can, probably because you feel some how slightly responsible. You are right you have a little extra money- where she does not.

I remember last year at Christmas, I had NO money. I had nothing under the tree, I cried so very hard because I had nothing to offer my children. I made sure Santa did because I did not want them thinking that they were naughty. Luckily some kind soul left presents for them- still do not know who. I cried so hard (and am now) out of the bitter sweetness of it all. What you did was a great thing- never down play that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KMEJ:
 You are helping where you can, probably because you feel some how slightly responsible. You are right you have a little extra money- where she does not.

<hr /></blockquote>That is just it. I don't know why, but I feel like I am partly responsible for this in her life. It was my failed marriage that effected her kids and has casued this devestation. Maybe a part of me did it to ease my guilt...I don't know. I do know that I am by no means a Saint ans should not be loooked at as being "cannonized". Pulllezzze...I am gonna be putting in overtime just to get in "upstairs" on the waiting list.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Lemonman wrote:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I think AT TIMES when many of you praise a BS FOR "fighting for their marriage" through humanly intolerable behavior, it is actually weakness and cowardness that makes them stay. I don't always see it as "being strong" It is a lot easier to stay in a $hitty marriage than leave it. This is not always the case. but that is how it is a lot of the times around here. Maybe I am wrong, but that is how I see it so much.

I think self esteem PLAYS SO much a role in these situations. I think many people here think so litle of themselves that they will tolerate near anything to "stay married". Their marriage defines their life. They fear too much on being on their own. I understand we are all different but this is something that I wrestle with so much on here and it gets me in trouble a lot of the times. I don't completely buy the premise that affairs come about because of EN's or whatever not being met. There are MANY MANY men/women who cheat "just because". MANy men cheat on their wifes after a new baby comes into their lives. Many men/women continually cheat because they need the "ego" boost. This may all have NOTHING to do with the BS. I think far many people cheat becasue of character issues than people admit on here. ONce again, just my opinion. <hr /></blockquote>I pretty much agree with you, Lemonman.
There have been many times when I questioned myself that my reasons for staying married were based on what you wrote (that my marriage defined my life, that I had low self-esteem, that I was in fact too weak to go through a D, that I thought D would be mean a failure on my part). I felt a fool, early in our last recovery, for staying with him. We have a long history, and three kids together. I wanted to believe that he could be better and not allow himself to enter into another A.

With MB, I believe I have gotten stronger and if another A occurs I doubt I would stay married. I would accept that his character flaw runs too deep and I would be fine if I moved on. I would believe that there would be a hope for a better life without his drama.

All that said, we do have a better marriage now than pre-A's. He is being his better self. We all have the capacity for sin and falling prey to temptation. I still believe that there can be happy endings even after a few false recoveries.

Would my life be alright now had I divorced him a few years back? Probably. But, right now I am glad we are still an intact family...grown kids and all. I think our kids are happier this way too..even though a couple of them may have thought I was weak to stay with him too. I think they respect my today. They also have a restored respect for their Dad.

You did give your wife a chance, you did try to recover. She failed to make it through withdrawal. I understand your choice to D her after she continued in her A. It is especially true since you don't have children together. It is sad you had to have her renewed contact exposed in such a way.

I probably extended much more grace in my H's 4 yr A than the average person would put up with. I guess that shows just how low my self esteem was during that time. I was more prepared to D after his last A...but then he made a very credible effort to recover with lots of remorse, repentance, and reassurance.

I am sure you will make it through your D and move on to have a great life. You will make the right woman a great H someday and I hope you are able to experience becoming a Dad.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
I do know that I am by no means a Saint ans should not be loooked at as being "cannonized". Pulllezzze...I am gonna be putting in overtime just to get in "upstairs" on the waiting list.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>You can add humble to your list of attributes as well :-)

I truly believe that good people will come out ahead in life, and I think you have a lot coming your way.

I'm positive that the LM screen-play will have a happy ending! Keep on doing what your doing...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Trix:
 Lemonman wrote:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I think AT TIMES when many of you praise a BS FOR "fighting for their marriage" through humanly intolerable behavior, it is actually weakness and cowardness that makes them stay. I don't always see it as "being strong" It is a lot easier to stay in a $hitty marriage than leave it. This is not always the case. but that is how it is a lot of the times around here. Maybe I am wrong, but that is how I see it so much.

I think self esteem PLAYS SO much a role in these situations. I think many people here think so litle of themselves that they will tolerate near anything to "stay married". Their marriage defines their life. They fear too much on being on their own. I understand we are all different but this is something that I wrestle with so much on here and it gets me in trouble a lot of the times. I don't completely buy the premise that affairs come about because of EN's or whatever not being met. There are MANY MANY men/women who cheat "just because". MANy men cheat on their wifes after a new baby comes into their lives. Many men/women continually cheat because they need the "ego" boost. This may all have NOTHING to do with the BS. I think far many people cheat becasue of character issues than people admit on here. ONce again, just my opinion. <hr /></blockquote>I pretty much agree with you, Lemonman.
There have been many times when I questioned myself that my reasons for staying married were based on what you wrote (that my marriage defined my life, that I had low self-esteem, that I was in fact too weak to go through a D, that I thought D would be mean a failure on my part). I felt a fool, early in our last recovery, for staying with him. We have a long history, and three kids together. I wanted to believe that he could be better and not allow himself to enter into another A.

With MB, I believe I have gotten stronger and if another A occurs I doubt I would stay married. I would accept that his character flaw runs too deep and I would be fine if I moved on. I would believe that there would be a hope for a better life without his drama.

All that said, we do have a better marriage now than pre-A's. He is being his better self. We all have the capacity for sin and falling prey to temptation. I still believe that there can be happy endings even after a few false recoveries.

Would my life be alright now had I divorced him a few years back? Probably. But, right now I am glad we are still an intact family...grown kids and all. I think our kids are happier this way too..even though a couple of them may have thought I was weak to stay with him too. I think they respect my today. They also have a restored respect for their Dad.

You did give your wife a chance, you did try to recover. She failed to make it through withdrawal. I understand your choice to D her after she continued in her A. It is especially true since you don't have children together. It is sad you had to have her renewed contact exposed in such a way.

I probably extended much more grace in my H's 4 yr A than the average person would put up with. I guess that shows just how low my self esteem was during that time. I was more prepared to D after his last A...but then he made a very credible effort to recover with lots of remorse, repentance, and reassurance.

I am sure you will make it through your D and move on to have a great life. You will make the right woman a great H someday and I hope you are able to experience becoming a Dad. <hr /></blockquote>Trix:

Thanks for the kind comments. Congratulations on saving and reinventing your marriage. Despite what many think, I am alwways happy when a marriage can be saved for the "right" reasons and the "right" way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM,

How is your MIL? My hope for both of you is that you can maintain a great relationship with her.

And about those innocent children you're helping, I'm sure you feel real peace in helping them as you are.

Your wife??? Yikes, sounds to me like she has a pretty healthy self-destruct instinct. My hope for her is she finds a great IC and learns from her mistakes. There has been enough pain and tragedy to go around already.

How about your personal recovery from all of this? I'd like to think that you can take the lessons from His Needs Her Needs, and have a great future relationship!

[ December 06, 2004, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: CSue ]

Interesting reading....

Kind of helps explains some of your "bitter" posts. (meant sarcastically....not mean)

It is so good to have a dissenting opinion on these boards. I respect that you keep coming back. And now that you have shared your story, I am glad and hope it helps you.

I normally post on the Preg and Child board, and I am glad you received so many positive posts.

Hang in there pud,

ent

Lemon,

The day after D-Day I had 4 surgical cases scheduled and I must admit it took every scintilla of concentration to give these patients the surgeon that they deserved. Like you, my training( and I fervently believe the Lord) took over for my brain and hands. While my cases weren't life and death, the reality of creating a life long complication always looms.

Since that time,a small voice in me tries to convince me that I am a fraud and now everyone will know. But like every surgeon that I know, if you can't have an ego in the OR, you don't belong there. Like you said these A's wreak destruction on everyone they touch, even peripherally.

BTW I also told my WW after D-Day that I would do anything , including walking away from my practice, if it would bring us back together. The Lord has wisely shown me that would have been a huge mistake.

Lemonman

Thank you for sharing your story. I am sorry that you had a story to share. I believe we are used through our trials and even our good times. You have touched so many lives and given many people much to think about even if people did not agree with what you said. Others you have helped out such as myself when I had a question about STD's you were right there and I Thank you.

You are touching many people through your pain instead of using it to hurt back. That speaks volumes about your character as a person. The pain you stbxw will feel after she realizes all she has lost will be incredible.

I believe the Lord uses us in many situations and wants us to share with others. I pray through all of this you find peace and comfort.

Lemon,

They didn't call you Meadowlark?

I must add my thanks for your post and your thoughts.

I think AT TIMES when many of you praise a BS FOR "fighting for their marriage" through humanly intolerable behavior, it is actually weakness and cowardness that makes them stay. I don't always see it as "being strong" It is a lot easier to stay in a $hitty marriage than leave it.

As I read other posts here, this runs through my mind more often than not. WHY ARE YOU ENDURING THIS TREATMENT???

I know that my decision to divorce my wife is justified. I am a good man who is not defined by my marriage failing.

I totally agree. We are defined by WHO we are.

Plus it sound like your WW was hooked into this guy prior to your arrival on the scene. "First cut is the deepest" (?) (Cheryl Crowe)

I have dated a number of women in my life BUT NO WOMAN had ever made me feel so completely and utterly "in love". I was whipped and worshipped my wife.

Whipped and worshipped...very well put.

I wonder if we love TOO much. Can/should we love so...TOO much?? Can we help it? Is it the chemicals and phereomes saturating our brains?

Anyway, you are a sane and grounded member of the MB fraternity/sorority. Very glad you are here.

k

Lemonman,
Just so you know, one of the "issues" I'm personnelly dealing with is "expressing how I feel". Due to the nature of my job, Emergency Dispatcher I have to handle suitations without emotions also, and that is my "back up mode". I am also a volunteer EMT. My WH is and so isnt the OW. It was very hard for me to go on a run, and have to work beside her, and unfortunatly I have backed off of something that I truely enjoyed. But she dose have more experience and considering she is a RNNP she can be more of assistance in that type of setting.
I agree with the feelings of Why do we do this to ourselves? The continued "fog" hoping it will lift. Thats something that everday I think about, then look at my 3 boys...
I would like to think you for your post though and I enjoy reading them. There are times when I'm at my limit, and I keep seeing your sig. line... plan A, plan A...plan A ...away
Keeps me inline! (Also helps encourage me to practic patience!)
keep posting!

[ December 06, 2004, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: allirose89 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by allirose89:
 Lemonman,
There are times when I'm at my limit, and I keep seeing your sig. line... plan A, plan A...plan A ...away
Keeps me inline! (Also helps encourage me to practic patience!)
keep posting! <hr /></blockquote>OH Ddear GOd. Keeping you in Plan A would never be something that would advise. I Am changing my sig line now...MOSt people know that I am almost ANTI-PLAn A as it is practiced here on the this board. I am soooo sorry for this confusion.

lemonman,

there is no way I could ever judge you and your decision to end your M. Only you know what you can live with, and what you can't.

As someone who has major trust issues and forgiveness issues (even before my H's A) I can truly understand where you are at.

No need to explain

albw

lemonman

thanks

I don't want you to misunderstand me! LOL... it a reminder to me, this is where I need to be Plan A, with a Plan B getting in place (Since I moved out 3 months ao with the boys and my lease here is up in March, so...) My suitation at this time is to be supportive to him. Not only ref. his A, he has a serious health condition with heavy meds that effects his emotions and behavior. I enjoy reading the information here, but know that I have to make my own choices and be responsible in those actions. I'll act on what feels right to do, but a 2x4 helps every so often. So I hope you don't change a thing, and keep up the posting.

BTW - I'm an EMT, So I know where to keep the band aids Put the on, go on and learn from it

[ December 06, 2004, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: allirose89 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by allirose89:
 I don't want you to misunderstand me! LOL... it a reminder to me, this is where I need to be Plan A, with a Plan B getting in place (My lease here is up in March, so...) My suitation at this time is to be supportive to him. Not only ref. his A, he has a serious health condition with heavy meds that effects his emotions and behavior. I enjoy reading the information here, but know that I have to make my own choices and be responsible in those actions. I'll act on what feels right to do, but a 2x4 helps every so often. So I hope you don't change a thing, and keep up the posting. <hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> LOL< I Am glad that this is now resolved. I felt horrible there for a minute.

lm:

I have 2 run, and so won't get 2 read all the responses you've gotten (I'm only on page 3!), so apologies if I'm repeating anyone here:

I think what you went through, and particularly what you did, say a lot about you, possibly even some things you might be missing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Treating the OM in the ER like you did was risky and very brave. If he HAD died, as others have said, you would have had 2 live with suspiscions that you had a "hand" in that happening. That had 2 factor in2 your decision 2 work on him when you did, and that was a very brave decision you made.

You did what you did because of WHO you are, not just what you are. Sure, your professional integrity played a big part in your decision 2 operate on him, but your personal integrity drove you harder, I'm thinking.

All "affairy tales" are tragedies, it's true. The BS is certainly not obligated 2 stay M'd after being betrayed like that, and you have been one of those 2bly unfor2nate in that your W "pretended" 2 want 2 rebuild, but continued the A unabated.

I believe you've earned a DV, if that's your decision.

I also believe you've earned a whole helluva lot of respect as a man and a professional, for the difficult choice you made.

best,
-ol' 2long

LemonMan! I haven't posted in a few weeks...I really needed time away and try to figure things out on my own...I wanted to comment on your thread though.

Your sitch gave me chills! I dont know why...My WH works in the ER often for extra income...and dont get me started on the extra income OR the extra hours...one of the reasons we are in Marital crisis to begine with...

Anyway, you said that you would give up everything for your wife if she so desired...that is one thing my WH refuses to do...He owns his own rural health clinic, is the director of 5 Nursing Homes and does ER once a week. I have asked him to quit at least that ONE nursing home that the OW works at..he wont...EVERYONE has told him to quit! he wont. Says, he cant right now cuz of money...

Right now, he is begging me for another chance...AGAIN! I cant do it...I just cant do it anymore...I have come to a place in my life that I am OK to go on without him...He has ANOTHER CHILD on the way with ANOTHER WOMAN <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> that is hard to swallow the more I think about it...REALLY hard, especially since WE made a decision TOGETHER for me to have a hysterectomy. (lots of problems after the babies were born, you know)

Anyway, I am not certain what the purpose of my post is...just to let you know that *I* am going to be OK, without my WH. He has chosen this life..it has taken me a looooong time to get to this point. I am still struggling with it sometimes...and for some unknown reason I feel sorry for him...I feel that he WANTS to get out of it, but he cant! He CANT PROMISE me he will never see her again...I am ok wtih this now...he can have her...I am moving on...It is what I have to do...Well, I have rambled enough...Thanks for sharing your sitch LM...I wish you luck in all you do and hope that you are happy!

kandi

I will not be able to read anymore till I get home, 1am...what a long night, but the information I do gather here, I keep in the back of my mind, esp with the suitations I deal with in a night. I gather facts, deliver facts, do not adv, but every now and then that one call stops you and makes you think. God gave you a gift, and you used it for the better. I think it takes a very strong person to do that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by momto3boys:
 LemonMan! I haven't posted in a few weeks...I really needed time away and try to figure things out on my own...I wanted to comment on your thread though.

Your sitch gave me chills! I dont know why...My WH works in the ER often for extra income...and dont get me started on the extra income OR the extra hours...one of the reasons we are in Marital crisis to begine with...

Anyway, you said that you would give up everything for your wife if she so desired...that is one thing my WH refuses to do...He owns his own rural health clinic, is the director of 5 Nursing Homes and does ER once a week. I have asked him to quit at least that ONE nursing home that the OW works at..he wont...EVERYONE has told him to quit! he wont. Says, he cant right now cuz of money...

Right now, he is begging me for another chance...AGAIN! I cant do it...I just cant do it anymore...I have come to a place in my life that I am OK to go on without him...He has ANOTHER CHILD on the way with ANOTHER WOMAN <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> that is hard to swallow the more I think about it...REALLY hard, especially since WE made a decision TOGETHER for me to have a hysterectomy. (lots of problems after the babies were born, you know)

Anyway, I am not certain what the purpose of my post is...just to let you know that *I* am going to be OK, without my WH. He has chosen this life..it has taken me a looooong time to get to this point. I am still struggling with it sometimes...and for some unknown reason I feel sorry for him...I feel that he WANTS to get out of it, but he cant! He CANT PROMISE me he will never see her again...I am ok wtih this now...he can have her...I am moving on...It is what I have to do...Well, I have rambled enough...Thanks for sharing your sitch LM...I wish you luck in all you do and hope that you are happy!

kandi <hr /></blockquote>MOM:

THank you for your comments. To see that you are moving on and finding the strength and resolve to move on without him makes me so happy. YOU may change your mind and give him yet another chance, but unfortunately, I TRULY BELIEVE that people like your husband are very sick and are character-less human beings. They can change, but it usually is a very hard and long process. He (dad23b), IMO probably does not have it in him to change, I really don't think he does. I can't ever portend to know what it would be like to be a betrayed mother with three children and not working and having to rely on a husband like yours solely (for $$ and support) must be so hard....infintely harder than my situation. I don't know what to say to you. I hope that you find the strength to stay strong and Divorce DAD....but I Know it will be VERY VERY hard. I know that many here will tell you to continue back fighting for your marriage and be overjoyed that DAD wants you AGAIN, but I can only shake my head at this. When it is all said and done, you husband IS WHO HE IS....HE can change, but it is very very unlikely given what he has done and continues to do. PLease remember this. I offer a hope and prayer for you and your children for safety and happiness this holdiay season. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
 THank you for your comments. To see that you are moving on and finding the strength and resolve to move on without him makes me so happy. YOU may change your mind and give him yet another chance, but unfortunately, I TRULY BELIEVE that people like your husband are very sick and are character-less human beings. They can change, but it usually is a very hard and long process. He (dad23b), IMO probably does not have it in him to change, I really don't think he does. I can't ever portend to know what it would be like to be a betrayed mother with three children and not working and having to rely on a husband like yours solely (for $$ and support) must be so hard....infintely harder than my situation. I don't know what to say to you. I hope that you find the strength to stay strong and Divorce DAD....but I Know it will be VERY VERY hard. I know that many here will tell you to continue back fighting for your marriage and be overjoyed that DAD wants you AGAIN, but I can only shake my head at this. When it is all said and done, you husband IS WHO HE IS....HE can change, but it is very very unlikely given what he has done and continues to do. PLease remember this. I offer a hope and prayer for you and your children for safety and happiness this holdiay season. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Thanks LM...I dont want to threadjack but I am glad you wrote back...I do hope I have the strength NOT to give this man another chance unless he can do some very positive changes...One quiting his job and moving...but I know he wont do that...

It is very unfortunate for ME that I gave up EVERYTHING for him...I married him at 24, while he was in the Army and moved to Germany with him..then followed him around the country while he finished the Army, then residency and then joined a practice and now is on his own...I supported all this...After becoming PG with OUR first child I quit working...so yes, I have relied on him for financial support my entire married life.

I WILL, however, be taken care of as far as getting enough child support from him if we do Divorce...I do know that...he is mad because I own half the business in Texas...I do not want to take this man to the cleaners...BUT, I deserve to be taken care of. I gave my life up for him and brought three children into this world with him and now he has desroyed all that...

Anyway, I know I am now at a point that I believe I am strong enough to walk away from him and the life he has created...I am not bitter or angry, I just need peace...I need to be FREE from the chaos...and I dont feel like I need to Plan B him to save the marriage...the marrriage cannot be saved with as much damage as he has done...if you care of email me please do at cuz I dont want to threadjack your thread anymore <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ December 06, 2004, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: momto3boys ]

Mom,

I think given the situation you are making a wise decision. You have given a good shot, and he chose OW. You should be proud of the effort you have given and hope you do find peace.

God Bless,

JL

LM,

Don't think I've ever posted to you, and doubt you've ever posted to me as I'm mostly over on D/D anymore.

I've read the entire 6 pages of posts to you and I'm sure I'm repeating.

What you did was something very wonderful. Whatever the reasons at the time, be it your trust in your own skills or whatever, you were able to look beyond your anger and your hurt from the affair and give your best to the patient and save the life (with God's help, I believe) of the one person you would have probably most wanted to disappear from the earth.

It speaks highly of your character.

LL

LM,

Since I've read your post and got to the part about why you chose your name, I keep whistling "Sweet Georgia Brown" in my head!! Thanks loads, buddy!!! LOL!

Actually, I loved Meadowlark Lemon, too! And I am glad he is the reason for your name. For a while I thought you chose it because you thought you chose a "lemon" for a wife, hence, lemonman. I'm happy to know that is not the case!

Though you may argue your wife is a lemon (or, as you say, had character flaws), and it may very well be the case, I keep rereading your post over and thinking, what if?

Don't get ahead of me, amigo. I fully support your decision to divorce. But consider a few things with me, will you?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
I told my wife, that I would do anything that she ever desired to save this marriage (including quitting medicine) if she gave me her word that she would NEVER see the OM again and have no contact. IN hindsight I now know this was irrational and desperate behavior on my part. <hr /></blockquote>You threw your heart and soul into recovery, anyone can see that. So I am wondering, what part did you think was irrational and desperate? The part where you told her you would even quit medicine? Or the part where you actually believed she would be able to establish NC right away?

What if your thinking had been more along the lines of accepting that your wife had feelings for OM and that it would take time for her to sort them out? Do you think you might be still working on the marriage today? Do you think she would have come to her senses?

There isn't a BS alive who doesn't want NC from the get-go. And yet it rarely happens. I understand why we want this, but are we setting ourselves up for dissapointment (especially in cases where the affair is nowhere near its end)? Is demanding NC right off the bat unrealistic in most cases?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
SOmething was "not right", but I told myself that it was my paranoia. Remaining married was more paramount than my self dingity and self respect.<hr /></blockquote>Uggh. The paranoia. Awful stuff it is. I surmise what you are saying here is that you ignored the signs that the affair was ongoing, like so many do, putting your self-dignity and respect aside, all for the purpose of preserving your marriage.

Was it that fateful night in the ER that changed this for you, LM? Did you suddenly take back your self-respect and dignity by deciding, on that night, that the marriage should end? Or was it the awful pain that drove you to make the decision to divorce, and the self-respect came on the heels of it, as a byproduct?

What if you could have found it within you to accept the circumstances of that awful night as "par for the course" and not the end all? Was there a part of you that ever said, "this is worse than I thought... saving this marriage could be harder than I realized"? Or did you go straight to "this sucks and I'm not gonna do this anymore"?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
 For the rest of my life I will never forget this moment and the look of shear and utter sorrow in my wife's eyes.<hr /></blockquote>What did the sorrow in her eyes says to you LM? Were you ever able to discuss it? Was did her "sorry" mean to you? Sorry that she got caught and hurt you and it was over? Or was she sorry, perhaps, that she was weak and went against her word? They are very different things. Assuming that you had already made the decision to divorce at that point, what if you had taken the time to find out what caused the pain in her that you were seeing? Was there anything she could have said that would have made you soften on your stance to end the marriage if NC was broken?

Concerning the surgery on OM, was that the turning point where you felt your wife had put you "in a situation to lose my career"? Do you think it is far-fetched for me to say that you were the one who put yourself in a situation to lose your career by operating on OM, not your wife having the accident?

You did not have to operate on him. You knew the risks. You took them. But I just don't think you can blame your wife for that risk. I am sure she never thought she'd be facing you that night, a gash in her head, and OM laying near death, and that you would have to make a decision on taking him to surgery yourself or calling in another surgeon. Not a 2x4, LM, just a view from a different vantage point.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
My wife looked at me eye to eye and lied to me again and again and again. She placed her affair before everything else in this sacred life and for that I can never forgive her.<hr /></blockquote>LM, this is the most damaging thing, the lies, the utter destruction of trust. The effects are deep and long-lasting but for many here on MB, there has been a rebuilding despite the lies. Do you really thing that you can never forgive her? What if you could put your hurt aside as a mental exercise and forgive her, right now, for all that she did? Would you be better off? Would your anger and malcontent be eased?

I am not asking all of these "what if" questions to make you second guess your decision to divorce. I'm not even asking you to answer them (bet you're happy about that, eh?!) I just ask them because I see that people have different ways of handling pain and varying abilities to forgive. Your way of dealing with pain was to lay down a set of rules (NC) that if broken would be the end of the marriage. You protected you self-respect by deciding to end the marriage when NC was broken. The dramatics notwithstanding, I think you would have done the same had you found she had phoned him or met him for lunch.

You question your decision to operate on OM that night, to this day. Do you ever question whether acting in this black-and-white manner was the right way to go? Do you ever wonder if you needed to see things in more shades of gray, allow for contingencies, that you could still work on the marriage and still keep your dignity?

OK, enough what ifs.... let's change it up.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
I think self esteem PLAYS SO much a role in these situations. I think many people here think so litle of themselves that they will tolerate near anything to "stay married". Their marriage defines their life. They fear too much on being on their own.<hr /></blockquote>This shoe can be worn just as easily by the WS, lemonman. Character issues are certainly a cause of many an affair, but so to, I believe, is the lack of self-esteem ON THE PART OF THE WS. I do not lack self-esteem. I did not and do not feel my marriage defines me. I did not and do not feel I need my husband nearly as much as he needs me. So I ask, could your wife's adultery been rooted more in low self-esteem on her part, or do you still believe it was the result of her low character? Again, you don't have to answer.... just food for thought.

Okay, enough. I've written near as much as you did. Hope you got something out of it. Sorry if I made you crazy!!!

~ Snow

(Edited for clarity. Twice.)

[ December 06, 2004, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: Snowbelle ]

Lemmonman
Seen you around on threads. Never knew until now who you were. You steeped outside your own personal interest to do your best for that man. Hold your head high. You are a true professional.
And you are a very kind man in your making sure that those children have a decent christmas.

I think that your decision to divorse was the right one for you. You had already tried to recover and the writing was on the wall for you when you discovered the continuation of the affair. you said your wife still speaks to him and he is now getting divorced, but are they still involved? It reads like everyone has lost so much here. You however have gained the opportunity to grow as a person and make you life a better one.

I believe that a decision as to whether or not to continue in a marriage is one's own to make. I don't think it is my place to foce whatever opinion I have onto someone else. Sometimes I almost feel like telling someone to just give up and move on, and other times I fell like trying to convince someone to give it another shot. But it is not my place to try and do this. I think this site is all about trying to support each other in what an individual is trying to achieve for their marriage.

I happen to be one of the people here who have managed to revover my marriage. That doesn't mean that I think that all marriages should be saved at all costs. In fact my Dday occured before I knew anything about this site. And once I got the full story I was out of there. I had no desire to stay in this marriage. i didn't hate husband. I just couldn't see how I could continu in a relationship which I had imagined was a whole lot different than it really was.

When I think about it, I think it was the fact that I truly had decided the marriage was over that it ultimately survived. I had let go. I resigned myself to the fact that he would be with OW. I think that my H could see that I was gone. That I was not begging and pleading. Nor was I sweraing etc.. I just wanted to know where he was at. There was no fighting, just sad resignation. It was he who begged me to stay and in those early days he who wooed me back in.

So while I am a "success story" I am not a good example of MB plans. I have however learnt a lot about what makes a happier marriage from this site and it has helped me enormously. my biggest problems in recovery have benn dealing with my own thought and reaction. That almost ended it later on and then I did beg, because he was leaving because of how I was treating him and I knew that I had been awful.

So I find it hard to tell people to Plan A. I feel like a hypocrit as I didn't do it myself. However, I feel as this board is here to promote Harley's principals that trying them is not a bad option. I do see value in it now. I see it as a chance to hhave the WS see an alternative to the OP. To try and fill the WS LB before going to Plan B. Unfortunately it seems to go on far too long in a lot of cases and people endure more than they should. I guess in my case I had been trying to improve myself before I discovered the affair.

I know one thing. If my H were to do this again I will not stay in this marriage. Mainly because I know I would never be able to trust him again. And I don't want to live like that.

Thanks for sharing, it has made me think
C&S

And by the way
I don't see sucess on here as whether or not a marriage survives or not. I see it as a sad, shaken individual gaining the self awareness, growth and courage to go on and build a great life for themselves, irrespective of whether or not the relationship survives. lokk at Believer for example. There is one strong woman. I see her as a sucess. But her relationship is no longer.
C&S

Lemonman,

I'm coming out of my hole briefly to comment, as I'm deep in the throws of packing as I am closing on my new house next week. Anyway, I have rarely been so moved as when I read your initial posting. Not only do you have a powerful story to tell, but you also tell it very well.

Truth is stranger than fiction, isn't it? I have nothing but admiration for you and what you did. It may not have seemed like much to you at the time, but then most "heros" say that whatever it was they did was the only real choice they had. To me that says that it is a person's CHARACTER that comes out and takes over in emergencies. Heros are people with extraordinary strength of character and integrity. That makes you a hero.

I can't imagine how you - and the rest of the BS's - could ever overcome the trust issues. My first H cheated on me - I suspected, but didn't find out for sure until he had already moved out, and I had already realized I didn't miss him at all. So, I never had to make any decisions about trust with him - and in my present situation, there is no 'A'. I have asked myself many times if I would be willing to Plan A or Plan B if I were a BS - I really don't think I would be able to do it. I've thought of doing a Plan B - but for returning to a marriage commitment, not to giving up an 'A'.

Anyhow, take care - thanks for sharing and for contributing to this board. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Snowbelle:

Thanks for your comments. I will try and address some of your questions. I think your questions are certainly thought provoking and have forced me to think alot about this.

1. You threw your heart and soul into recovery, anyone can see that. So I am wondering, what part did you think was irrational and desperate? The part where you told her you would even quit medicine? Or the part where you actually believed she would be able to establish NC right away?

Well, the part about quitting medicine for my marriage was irrational. I don't think giving up my dreams and livelihood would have been healthy for ME..and thus that would have been unhealthy for a marriage. Yes, I would have certainly compromised some here though. It was more of a plea for my wife to see how serious I was about saving our marriage.

2. What if your thinking had been more along the lines of accepting that your wife had feelings for OM and that it would take time for her to sort them out? Do you think you might be still working on the marriage today? Do you think she would have come to her senses?

I don't know the answer to this question. SHe has a lot of "history" with the OM and I think it went so much more "dysfunctionally" deeper than I ever believed. I know that to be true to myself, I could NEVER accept that she continued to have feelings for OM and me stay with her. THis is just the way I feel. I know that I COULD not do this. IN this, I don't think I could answer your question as I know that I couldn't do it.

3. There isn't a BS alive who doesn't want NC from the get-go. And yet it rarely happens. I understand why we want this, but are we setting ourselves up for dissapointment (especially in cases where the affair is nowhere near its end)? Is demanding NC right off the bat unrealistic in most cases?

For me, it was a deal breaker. We are always talking about boundaries here, and this was one of mine. Yeah, maybe it was unreaistic, but INFIDELITY to me is UNREALISTIC to ever consider, so I guess it all goes with the territory. I know that it is not "MB esque", but it is my boundary nonetheless.

4. Was it that fateful night in the ER that changed this for you, LM? Did you suddenly take back your self-respect and dignity by deciding, on that night, that the marriage should end? Or was it the awful pain that drove you to make the decision to divorce, and the self-respect came on the heels of it, as a byproduct?

God, that is a great question <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . I don't know. I guess to me, it was the fact that I would no longer tolerate her affair even if it meant divorcing her. My love for this woman was so much stronger than I ever had for anyone else, and this was a devestating thing for me to have to do. I think the self respect came when I could face that the marriage had to end and I was the one who had to do this, no matter how much this hurt me.

5. What if you could have found it within you to accept the circumstances of that awful night as "par for the course" and not the end all? Was there a part of you that ever said, "this is worse than I thought... saving this marriage could be harder than I realized"? Or did you go straight to "this sucks and I'm not gonna do this anymore"?

ANother great question. This was a combination of both, but MORE the fact that I told myself that I could not tolerate another betrayal. I promised myself that no matter how much I loved her, I would not accept another betrayal. Accepting this as "par for the course" is NOT something I would ever think. It just isn't.

6. What did the sorrow in her eyes says to you LM? Were you ever able to discuss it? Was did her "sorry" mean to you? Sorry that she got caught and hurt you and it was over? Or was she sorry, perhaps, that she was weak and went against her word?

Oh, the sorry was defintely that she got caught and KNEW that it was over then and there. I would like to think her sorrow was for the pain this caused me, but I somehow don't think this was it. SHe knew that her life/our life as we knew it was OVER. She knew the tremendous fallout that would happen (and it did <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> )

7. Was there anything she could have said that would have made you soften on your stance to be good to your word and end it with this second violation of your faith in her?

Honestly SNowbelle, NO. There is no way around this. There is nothing she could have said here. I cannot change the way that I feel about this.

8. Concerning the surgery on OM, was that the turning point where you felt your wife had put you "in a situation to lose my career"? Do you think it is far-fetched for me to say that you were the one who put yourself in a situation to lose your career by operating on OM, not your wife having the accident?

Well, it was my decision to take the OM to the operating room so for that I blame NOONE. It was my decision and to this day I take full responsibility for that decision. I can see your point of my wife having nothing to do with putting me " in a situation to lose my career". Well, the fact is, she was in a car accident with another man (a married man with 2 children) and as fate would have it with the miniscule % of her getting caught and end up in an accident at the hospital that I work at and with me being on trauma call that night..IT Happened. It was her decision to have this affair and as such her actions CONTRIBUTED to this situation for me. IN the end, you are right, I made the decision to do this surgery.

9. What if you could put your hurt aside as a mental exercise and forgive her, right now, for all that she did? Would you be better off? Would your anger and malcontent be eased?

Yes, I agree once again. WHen I was writing this post last night, I think I was opening up a recently healed wound and a lot of my emotions were coming back from how I felt THEN. Today, I think the only way to TRULY Heal is to forgive. However, fo ME, forgive will never mean reconciliate.

10. You question your decision to operate on OM that night, to this day. Do you ever question whether acting in this black-and-white manner was the right way to go? Do you ever wonder if you needed to see things in more shades of gray, allow for contingencies, that you could still work on the marriage and still keep your dignity?

Ugggh...another great question <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . I don't know the answer to this. Honestly, I am a very TYPE A Personality who sees things as black and white. YOu either operate or don't. It has always been drilled into me that you better know what the hell you are doing when you have your hands in someone's chest, etc... THis kind of milatiristic training has always made me make decisions quickly...when in FACT, this isn't always the best tactic. There is no doubt that my training as a surgeon has made me this way. I do see the value of seeing things as "shades of gray" at times. There is alot of growing for me to do....I ACCEPT THIS. I am realizing that I cannot live my life like I am in the operating room having to make hard decisions in a moments time. To be honest with you, I still don't think this could have saved my love for my wife that night. I know that many can never understand my feelings on this, but it is my reality. This is why I have had such a problem with the MB program at times.

I sincerely thank you for your post to me. YOur questions were great and thought provoking for me. I don't even know if I have all the answers to them, as that it part of my "healing". I hope that maybe you got a better glimpse of me through this. Thank you once again for your comments. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM

Thanks for your answers, LM, even though I let you off the hook! I'll leave you with this:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:

Today, I think the only way to TRULY Heal is to forgive. However, fo ME, forgive will never mean reconciliate.<hr /></blockquote>Forgiveness is crucial to getting past infidelity, and virtually any emotional pain in our lives that is caused by another person. Forgiveness, IMHO, simply releases them from the debt they owe us for harming us. It is something we give freely and allows us to move on. It does not equate with reconciliation. That is a separate decision altogether.

Take care.

~ Snow

LM,

You said <blockquote>quote:<hr />I know that many can never understand my feelings on this, but it is my reality. This is why I have had such a problem with the MB program at times. <hr /></blockquote>I guess I feel the need to defend the MB program abit. Your feelings and your decisions are EXACTLY what the MB program was built for. You are NORMAL and most if not all of the BS's have felt as you have. Most would NOT tolerate a second betrayal unless there where more souls involved, ie children.

All feel the total devastation that you feel/felt. The MB program is not about ignoring this deep seated and normal feelings. They are about examining them as Snow just offered with her well thought and and probing questions, and deciding if one WANTS to try and rebuild. The idea is to make this decision a conscious one rather than a knee jerk one. If the decision is to try and salvage the marriage, then MB offers tools to do that. If it is to end it, then there are things that one should address before departing.

The idea is to lose the baggage as much as possible whether you decide to salvage the marriage or leave it. As someone said Believer is an MB success story and her marriage is ending so is WAT and his marriage ended. You can be as well, no matter what happens to your marriage.

Sorry to burst you bubble LM, but you are not an anethma to MB nor are your feelings or decisions counter to the ideas here. The idea here is for you to learn so that your NEXT relationship will be more successful and that entails among other things you having a better idea of the type of woman you want as a W and not to be naive enough to think that a woman with problems in a previous relationship won't bring them into the next one unless she has done a lot of work on herself.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Just Learning:

The idea is to lose the baggage as much as possible whether you decide to salvage the marriage or leave it. As someone said Believer is an MB success story and her marriage is ending so is WAT and his marriage ended. You can be as well, no matter what happens to your marriage.

JL <hr /></blockquote>YES, I understand this now, hence the reason that I still post here when in fact I am never going to rebuild my marriage. I understand what you are saying, but I still contend that a lotof Harley's principles do more dmamage than good to a lot of well meanining BS. Just my opinion. I will never change your mind on that and vice versa, so debating the merits of the details of Plan A or whatever is not worth it. IN the end, I agree. Personal Recovery for me will be my salvation from this...not saving my marriage.

Hey Lemonman, it's my turn to write to you after your amazing story. Every time I think I've read something on MB that would be a great soap opera story, yet another one takes its place. Sorry to say I think your infidelity story is up there with the best of them. Thank you for sharing it with us and revealing more of yourself in the process.

I wrote to you once before and I apologize if I'm repeating anything that I wrote to you previously.
I might be like you in the sense that I have very black and white thinking concerning As. I've always hated them. I have had the misfortune of knowing both BSs and WSs throughout my adult life. I agree with you that they impact not only the couple involved, but many others also. H's family experienced As which put a lot of strain in our own M over the years. But those stories are soap operas in themselves. My H very clearly knew how I felt about As. I always, without a doubt knew I would dump him if he betrayed me, yet here I am. Ten months from the beginning of the truth-telling, and hopefully on the road to recovery. My most recent awareness through therapy is this. I am beginning to accept that my H had an A, but now I need to accept that I would stay with my H who had an A.

Concerning MB and As. I was led to MB within several weeks of d-day. I believe I was led to this site, and I also am pretty sure H and I wouldn't be together if not for MB. During the 1st several months and more into this hell I went to MB for support, to vent, and as my command central. I was fortunate in that my H pretty much gave up the OW cold turkey while still at the height of in-love. Puke! Plus he was never nasty towards me, and has felt huge remorse. He has a small business and she was his office manager. When I found out about the EA part I told him she had to go or we were over. He fired her the next day. He also lost his business partner because of the A at the same time. This put his business in a huge turmoil, but I would not waver. She had to work for him another month. He made sure he was nevr alone with her. It was hell. Two weeks after she was gone he called her and met with her for "closure". I believe him when he says they didn't screw, but I'm sure there were hugs, kisses, ILYs, and "this is so hard" talk. He called her every other day for 2 weeks until his guilt got the best of him and he confessed. After that he stopped being the lier he had become.

Why am I writing this to you? Maybe because I know you don't get this whole MB philosophy. Maybe because I followed it even though so many times I wanted to chuck the whole thing. More than a few times I was very unMB-like during H's withdrawal. I hated that he missed the "B" who was my enemy and the enemy of my children. I've never had an enemy before. I hated the fact that he experienced in-love with her, and worse in-love sex with her. I still have an awful time with the sexual betrayal. Even though he didn't want to go back to her I can't tell you how many times I would say to him, "If you had such a beautiful R with her, then why don't you just go to her and follow your bliss." People here couldn't believe I was telling him to leave. Somehow the man never left, and then I had to face the fact I was stuck with him. As people who have gotten to know me here will attest, I am probably not the easiest of BSs to deal with. I have been brutal with my H in having him reveal all details. I am a need to know everything BS. I guess you could say that I want to recover, but he needs to meet me in the process, and so far he has. But I had to be the friggin lighthouse for many months to help bring him out of the fog, which I believe he is out of now. THAT is where MB is so helpful.

I have learned that As can happen in good Ms. Our M was pretty darn good. If you don't know my story we experienced a series of sickness and deaths, H's dad's death sent him into a MLC, and unfortunately for the 1st time in our M there was a predatory OW and great opportunity. Every factor that I've read that could make us vulnerable were operating in our M. I'm reading "Torn Asunder" now and that book has helped me understand H's internal vulnerability brought on by an abusive father. I'm not making excuses, just trying to understand.

What has always bothered me is the choice point before the A really begins. Before we can really say the WS is in fog. Steve Harley has given me several examples to explain this whole addiction theory, which I have trouble with. I get it intellectually, but struggle with it in my heart. I think I may be starting to get it. One analogy Steve gave me is the frog one, which you may have heard. Frogs don't like hot water. If you put them in cold water and put the pot on the stove, the frog won't jump out because the water heats up gradually. He doesn't realize he's dying until it's too late. The other one is someone who says they still have good judgment after 3 drinks, but won't have a 4th drink. However, their judgement is screwed up after the 3rd and so they have a 4th and a 5th. By then he/she might get in their car and kill someone.

These As are slippery slopes. I think there are people who have character who have an A, like my H. The attraction and feelings begin and they don't know what to do, and so they end up doing all the wrong things. As Steve has told us, "It's a failure to protect your weaknesses." My H didn't eeven know what his weaknesses were. I never thought I could ever measure up to an in-love fantasy. Now my H appears to look at the A as the biggest mistake of his life, and has no feelings for the OW if he is being truthful with me. If anything he looks at her as a poison in his life. The biggest thing he is dealing with is what he did to me, others who were effected, and the loss of his integrity. He became a very lost man and if it wasn't for MB I might not have been able to stick it out while he tried to find himself again.

I am fortunate that my self-esteem is high, so even though I was devstated, I never lost that. I feel so much for the BS who suffers from low self-esteem. Lately I've been so worried about BSs who are suicidal. I don't think I could ever go through this again. However, there are people like Stillwed and Foreverhers who stuck with their Ss and now have good Ms. I guess we all have different tolerance levels.

Truthfully I'm not sure why I wrote all of this. Probably way too much info. Just another MB perspective.

I wish you the very best. You are obviously a very good and loving man. If anything these MB principles, along with so many other sources out there on As, will help all of us have better Rs in the Rs we're in or in Rs in the future.

Take Care LM, and keep on posting. This site is a place of support and healing. CV

I don't have time to read the whole story now, but I have to say that you have character. You had to take him to the OR-what choice did you have. There is a special place in heaven for you and I believe that your wife was emotionally damaged when you met her and that maybe you were trying to rescue her. What smacks me in the face about your story is that you are too good for her and she is a fool for not seeing that, therefore she has got to be damaged. The OM is her drug right now. How foolish she is. There is a special place for you. Hugs-Jersey Girl

[ December 07, 2004, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: new jersey ]

Lemonman
Thank you for sharing your story..and about writing a book/making a movie..I think the Lifetime channel may have already one it...

I apologize if I am making repetive statements as I only read the first page of posts, but after survivng an affair while trying to repair a doomed marriage, I agree with you. I look back and wonder why I stayed with my stbx almost 5 years after finding out about the affair, and I've sadly come to the conclusion that it was because I wanted to have a family and home. I thought that included him. It doesn't. He never made our residence, a home. He never made our relationship a family. And he never was anything akin to a father. I kept waiting on the day that he would wake up and become what I expected him to be. I was one of the people you wrote about-low self esteem with a great need to belong...belong to anybody-even to someone who didn't deserve me. Sad. Very sad.

Maybe there are people out there who truly make a mistake and get involved with someone they shouldn't, but I believe in my stbx's case it too was a case of absense of character. Not a lack-there's just none there. I know now that my life will be truly richer without him. It should have been richer years ago...many years ago. I saw him through my expectations and lived in denial as to what a truly rotten person he is. He has many people fooled including himself.

When I think of what he has lost, I wonder how he can stand himself but then I remember he doesn't have a clue as to what he lost. I lost too...I lost a miserable life and found new possibilities.
I never wanted to grow old alone but the alternative makes loneliness so appealing.

I think you were wise to realize it was over when it was over. I admire you for taking part in saving this man's life and wonder what goes on in his brain when he considers how close he was to death. Now that should be made into a movie...

Lemmonman,

Meritorious!!! Instrumentation, at it's finest. Perfect channel, kept your code for the Great Physician to work through! True child of GOD, true humanitarian, true professional& true human.

Your dropping your mask meant-being your yourself means so much to me! Thankyou for taking a risk, sharing your truth, pain, journey, the risk, the pressure, the duty, the sacrifice, BEING HUMAN-JUST U.

I can only imagine the emotionality underneath-surrealism, split second erecting an instant Berlin wall.Placing all prejudices aside, swirling thoughts, save a life. Must of felt like an complete out of body experince.

Grace under fire, and outstanding ability to follow God's command. To love our enemies. Wow!

EXTRAORDINARY PRESSURE--Grace under fire--MERCY, COMPASSSION!!! I can't imagine the sweat, train of thoughts running through your mind. Find the e-brake. Wow...

I understand,relate on many levels. Not with surgery....I could feel the weight,gravity, of every emotion, resonating within. I felt the knots in my stomach with your every word.

I am deeply sorry& sympathize deeply with your distress, betrayal, required to go above, beyond.

My x took me down quite a ride, took everything in my core-to advert a great tradgey, save his life on several occasions, save my kids, my life. Restraint, walking the razor's edge.

Yes, I can empathize deeply. I understand moral code. I understand rage, I understand self-control, I understand how deeply sick a human mind can become, I understand the push& pull not to take matters into my own hands, under no circumstances, I understand disconnect& let go.

Everyone has their own endurance limits, those limits mean walking away-closing the door is forgiveness. Some people well I have discovered are egregious-permanently damaged.

Took me monthes to collect& connect with myself, write my story for my lawyer. I just shook, vibrated, re-living out the entire ordeal trauma, vomitted, cried, barely could write it out. I have high tolerance for pain.

Took me almost a year to write it out. Actually, terrifying-meant reconnecting with parts I wanted to go away.

I am in agreement- EN needs can be an excuse-- Definately character issues.Some do just get swept away by the hyper-exciteablity of it all, their own vulnerabilty. Some people are just incompatible, others rudely insensitive, others dangerous.

Some make a mistake, recover their moral compass, do not repeat, rebuild their love/trust for their spouse. Mistake is entirely different than a free wheelin license to live out a libertine lifestyle.

Others it's attention drama, or others revenge, others seriously damaged. Fear, ignorance. But it all boils down to CHOICE-OWERNSHIP.

Sabats are wonderful--opens up myriad other dimensions!?! Teaching med in France, UK humms such a nice ring... Recovery comes in many forms.

Problem with adultery it consumes so much time. Hazard to one's well being-zero of experince. Counter productive.

Breathe easy& PLEASE WRITE SOME MORE!!!

Warmest heart felt hugs! I feel better for you, and many else here! Huge step here-leap of faith-leap over the fears-leap over the shadows, and leap into calmer& saner times to come! Where life becomes pleasant& savory again.

In your court!!! Take gentle care!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What an amazing story. Thank you for sharing.

I too have never been a MB follower. I believe that to save or end a marriage is totally up to those in the marriage. I know at different times in my life I am able to handle stress at different levels. AS a former BW (first marriage) I did opposite of MB I Love busted my XH right out of my home (Threw him out) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I was separated for several months while HE planned A ME. Eventually with counseling I decided to give him another chance. I never really trusted him again, in other words It was never the same. And no it was NOT better.

I came to MB as I have said before because I feel my H ignores me. I have used radical honesty to the point I told him I would get a BF
that worked <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I actually Identified with your XW at some point in your story (except I dont have an X that I even think twice about). My H is obsessed with his work, beyond a workaholic more of an adrenline junkie I think. He cant balance.

Momto3boys and I have become friends in these last few months. I have been accused of being her cheerleader (protector) we have share our plights.
I support her decision to move on with her life, just as I supported her decision NOT to make a decision while her father was dying. She knows that I am not a MBer in that sense. I could NEVER plan A (as evidenced in my first marriage).
I just believe in the golden rule "do unto others"
I think that is the basis of MBers if you AND your spouse treat one another with respect and Emotional needs are met than the likely hood of an affair is slim (not impossible,I agree with the character reference you have made).

I seriously wish the support groups for Physician spouses still existed. I think now with so many Physician's marrying other professionals who also work there was just not a need and they have been done away with.
I know years ago I belong to a University womans club (homemakers who had graduated from a University). It was fun but I have since went back to work just to come back home again (another baby) That club is no longer in my area.

Gads, ya think this was all about me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Good luck Lemonman when you do find a new person in your life, make sure she has support of some sort (understanding the amount of alone time being a Physicians SO) even if its another Physician wife. I have a huge understanding being a degreed RN but it does not change the fact I am a wife <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> and even with kids it can be very lonely.

By the way you did good with OM's family. I am sure it will bring happiness to them.
Happy holidays
SOM

I believe that the telling of one's story is a big step in healing. It's not so much about the details, the heroic acts, the cowardly choices, but allowing oneself to open up and be vulnerable again to other human beings. I felt so powerless, so vulnerable, so angry, so sick, when I had to deal with all the fallout from my xWS's affair. I sure as heck was not going to open myself up and start to trust anyone, in any capacity, ever again!....But when I shut down to the "bad", painful, powerless stuff, I shut down to the good stuff, too. Some people choose to stay in that "safe" place. So be it. For me, the real heroism, power, healing comes from our willingness to step back out there, share our stories, connect with one another..and let others back into our lives... when everything in us shouts "No! Don't be a fool again! Shut up!"

So I want to congratulate you Lemonman for having the courage to tell your story, to start to connect with others again...as vulnerable and scary as that can feel. And perhaps that is part of your giving to the OM's wife and children.
An affirmation that after all the pain and crap we've been through, we take the risk of reaching out and connecting to others and their needs, once more. The Hero/Heroine's Journey.

[ December 08, 2004, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: heartfailure ]

Lemonman, I am in awe of your story, your strength, and your character. Your strength will take your life to a higher level. I feel confident to say that another "love of your life" will come your way, and you will build the life you dream of with a new family.

You will always feel "something" towards your WW. She was very special to you, and awakened love in your heart at one time. That can't be taken away. And over the years, the "details" of the tragic end will fade into the background, as lifes new paths open up to you.

I can't help but feel for her, in a very sad way. Is she still with MM by the way? Has he healed well? Still wearing the bag?

Thank you for being kind to OM's family during this holiday season. Your kindness has brought tears to my eyes.

Maybe one day I'll put my story here. My story is old though, and I'm bored with it (that's a good thing, I was anally obsessive about it for years).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JanetS:

I can't help but feel for her, in a very sad way. Is she still with MM by the way? Has he healed well? Still wearing the bag?

<hr /></blockquote>Thank you for your kind post. My STBXW is "probably" still involved with the OM in "some" way. I have had to detach myself from all of that, so I can't quite be sure...and to be honest don't really care that much. Her mother (my MIL) seems to think she is "not" with him, but I think that is all part of her MIL denial. She wants so much for her daughter to be still married to me and to not have done the things she has done. I feel alot for her pain over this. This situation has in no uncertain terms been devestating for her...absolutely devestating. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> For that, I am most sorry for filing the divorce.

As for the OM, he has had his colosotmy bag removed (not by me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , and has healed "well" all things considering. His wife is divorcing him (they have 2 small children) and he has lost much credibility in this area with regards to his job (he is a pharmaceutical salesman)--> you can imagine how Doctors would treat him when he comes calling to push his meds. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

He has had his share of bad karma, and for now I don't feel hate for him anymore...but rather pitty. As for my STBXW, she has her own struggles. The aftermath of this has left her also in devestation. I still at times think she is in "denial" of things. Our divorce mediation has gone well and was not nearly the hassle I thought it would be. I think someday soon I am going to sit with her and truly have a "heart to heart" and forgive her for her part in all of this. I know that I said I never could forgive her, but I think now I can and that I have to. I will NEVER reconcile with her BUT I can forgive her. I know that I need this to heal and so does she. It has taken me a long time to be able to do this, but I know it has to be done. I don't hate her, and ofcourse a part of me will ALWAYS love her...I just can no longer love her the way a husband SHOULD love his wife.

Thanks for listening.

Hello LM,

I'm not sure if I ever posted to you.If I did it may have been once or twice.It's easy to keep track of the stories you frequently post to but not to everyone.The numbers here keep climbing.

Well,I haven't cried in a long time but your post made me do so.Don't feel badly about that.When I looked at Binders photo of him and his two children and dog,I fell apart too.Looking at the photo's on the MB Photo thread is very painful for me.It reminds me of the childrens faces on milk cartons.I feel so profoundly sad for all the pain going on and actually putting faces with stories makes it all the more real.That's why I am not sure I can ever post my picture there.It would soldify that I too am a victim/survivor? of adultery.

Anyway,I know there has been quite a stream of lengthy responses to you and I have read most of them but I just wanted to say that I can understand why you are ending your marriage.I too made a decision many months ago that my WH's continued choice to put everything else ahead of me,our marriage and family was no longer acceptable to me.I gave my WH what I thought was just time to make the changes necessary for us to be together and for our children and not to be another statistic of D but to this very day,he refuses to do so,which is why I made the decision to file.Like you,I feel that my marriage,although extremely important to me,was not all of my being.I knew that I had more self worth and I deserved more than what I was being put through(more about this issue on noodles good fences thread),so did my children.I worked hard at it because I knew deep down in my heart,I wanted to say I gave it my all.I know you don't agree with all the concepts here but I am grateful for MB and for confirming my desire to try....after 20 years together and 14 years of marriage,best friends,etc,I felt I did owe it to my marriage and my children to do this,despite all the pain.

Being an RN,what was so disturbing to me reading your post was the fact that you operated on the OM.As you are aware,treating relatives or friends or anyone known to you in an "intimate" or close way is usually forbidden,at least in all the places where I worked and for the obvious reasons.The emotion tied up in the person laying before you can drastically alter all perception and care.I don't honestly know how you pulled it off,taking this man to the OR and managing through it all.I will never know,I am not you.I am not suggesting that you are a "bad" person for doing this,by all means no.Just dumbfounded how you did it.If you were the only ER doc on call there,well,sometimes life throws you into the most volatile and challenging of situations.I think that it really has affected me reading it,that you did this and I don't suppose I know why exactly.It may be that you suffered such a horrific trauma of adultery and then to be presented with the man that was co-conspirator,needing medical care.That begs the question...WHY? Why YOU?

I also can sympathize with the moment you knew it was over for you.I had a moment too like that many months ago.It was the second "false recovery" that I told him it was over.He knew that after the first time he failed,he got one more chance and if he lied to me and kept in contact with the homewrecker,that was it.And so it was.He again,placed all the importance on this wretched woman and that was it.Done.The feeling washed over me like a cold acid bath.And I have been trying to recover from this loss ever since.

Anyway,thank you for sharing your story.I agree that even though I do not have marital recovery,I will most defintely have personal recovery.I must go on,for me and for my darling daughters.

O

Octobergirl
It must be state to state laws that "forbid" a Physician from treating family and friends.

My H delivered our children, he actually saved our son (tripled tight nucual cord). I too am an RN and know several Physicians that have treated their families. I know another Physician that also delivered his own twins (planned).

There is a certain adreneline that kicks in that makes clinicians kick into a gear it makes the situation of the patient not "who" the patient is top priority. This has happened to me many times at work.

Lemonman did what he was trained to do. OM was lucky LM was on call. If it had been another Physician, he may not be around.

Forgiveness is definately a road you should travel. I'm sure it will do your WW a lot of good, but in this situation (probably in ALL situations) the bigger benefit from forgiveness comes to the one who gives it.

Forgiveness is something that should not be rushed though. I gave it once, too early, and it came back to bite me when I realized I still had too much rage inside of me to truly be ready to forgive. Yet, it is a very worthy goal.

When hearing your story of the second d-day, I think I have only one other time heard a story with so much drama. This story made the news...I heard it second hand, so I hope I have it right.

On 9-11 a woman was watching the events on tv, and in a panic called to her husband's cellphone (he worked in one of the towers). Asked him "are you alright?". "Yes, why?" "Because of the plane in your building" "What plane?".

Turns out the man did NOT go straight to the office when he left home that morning, but went to his OW's place, and was cozying up to her, and had no idea what was happening in Manhattan.

My understanding is that a divorce followed!

Now that too is a "Movie of the Week".

a naughty little thought I had Lemonman....

maybe a little slip of the scalpel while in the area of his ... you know ... nothing big, just perhaps a little nip on the nipper requiring a stich or two (that would be a bit uncomfortable on him, yes?)

It's not a funny situation at all, of course, but in life's traumas it is healthy, down the road, to make light and find humour. As they say "Humour is the best medicine". And no, I didn't spell humor wrong, I'm Canadian, and we use the English spelling of words...like cheque (check), neighbourhood (neighborhood), trunk (boot). LOL

[ December 09, 2004, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: JanetS ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JanetS:
 a naughty little thought I had Lemonman....

maybe a little slip of the scalpel while in the area of his ... you know ... nothing big, just perhaps a little nip on the nipper requiring a stich or two (that would be a bit uncomfortable on him, yes?)

It's not a funny situation at all, of course, but in life's traumas it is healthy, down the road, to make light and find humour. As they say "Humour is the best medicine". And no, I didn't spell humor wrong, I'm Canadian, and we use the English spelling of words...like cheque (check), neighbourhood (neighborhood), trunk (boot) LOL. <hr /></blockquote>LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , trust me you would be shocked if you ever heard us in the OR or behind closed doors. Humor does play a big part in dealing with this kind of stuff every day. I have had to make "light" out of all of this plenty. I sometimes still can't belive this $hit happened to ME...it is unf-ing believable at times to me. Ohhh, what a life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

BUt...alas, I am still standing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . I am blessed in a way as I have my whole life to look forward to. I have the hopes of meeting a new woman (who deserves me) and the hopes of fathering children someday. Life sucks at times, but you deal with the hand you are dealt. I haven't had a good outlook on things in months. My own "fog" is lifting now,,,and clear skies are ahead.

LM

P.S. I just re-read this post and am ashamed at the number of cheesy cliches I have in this post. I should be shot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Cliches are fun ..so put the axe to the grindstone, get in gear, and keep your powder dry, it's a slippery slope my friend <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Noodle

lm,

In regards to your original post.

One month? You gave your wife an ultimatim and one month later there is this crisis with om in ER? Well, God did have his hand on that situation. LOL. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Nevertheless, it seems to me that you fall in the category of the "men that tolerate less"

Anyhoo, my fws had contact for 4 more months after d-day. But I listened to God and realized what I had been doing wrong, regardless of my H's wrong doing.

Anyway, its seems like such a short time and hard lines from you to your ws.

I hope that you can read about MB principles and perhaps apply them to your next relationship. Hopefully you will meet your next wife/girlfriend's emotional needs and it will all work out.

I know you disrespect all this continued contact. However, if I had not prayed and God had not answered my prayers and honored the changes that I needed to make then we would not be as far into recovery as we are. Sometimes justification for your actions does not wash with our Lord. Because I listened to the Lord, and what HE wanted me to do in my marriage, it has survived. I have the H of my dreams. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Finally. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But it took over 4 months, and then some.

I know your M is over and I accept that. But this is a wonderful site. I would just ask that you apply some of the principals on this site for your next relationship. It just might make it work.

And by the way, did you ever figure out what EN's you were not meeting of your xw's that you could do better at in the future? I am not in any way saying that the A was your fault. This was the WS choice. I am just asking what might haave been lacking and what you might do differently in the future.

Have you read hisneedsherneeds by Harley? Do you think it might help you in the future?

Just wondering. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Lemonman,
I read this while I was on my sabatical from the forums and just wanted to say kudos to you. You handled the situation that most would not want to and you did so in a profesional manner.

MIF?

Well Lemonman, it's good to know where you're coming from. Your story explains many things about you and your advice. I can see how you'd be a bit "bitter". (to say the least) You have an amazing amount of strength.

(((((hug))))))

<blockquote>quote:<hr />...I still contend that a lotof Harley's principles do more dmamage than good to a lot of well meanining BS. Just my opinion. I will never change your mind on that and vice versa, so debating the merits of the details of Plan A or whatever is not worth it. IN the end, I agree. Personal Recovery for me will be my salvation from this...not saving my marriage.<hr /></blockquote>Hi, LM,
I've never posted to you before. I rarely post here anymore, just on D/D board. Your story and this thread were thought provoking enough to keep me reading all 7 pages.

I'd like to comment on two things. 1st, your ideas about character. I agree with you, for the most part. I've noticed a definite difference, even in the responses you've gotten here, between those who immediately renounce their A - even if there's some continued contact, they are fighting the "addiction" - and those we call "cake eaters" who lie in order to continue to have what they want without paying any price for it.

As a member of Al-Anon, I know addiction is described as a "disease" not a lack of character, but once in the program (AA, NA, etc.) the focus is on rooting out and eliminating "defects of character". People who stay clean and sober do have a change of character. I think it's the same for those who kick the A habit as well. These defects of character make us vulnerable and as humans, we all have defects of character. The only way to eliminate addictions is to eliminate these defects of character. It's hard work and those who recover their M's are the ones willing to do the hard work of change.

My 2nd point refers to what I quoted above. I've often found ways to misuse the info I've received both here on MB and from Al-Anon. I was afraid to let go, even after Steve Harley recommended it - he didn't think I should stay in an abusive situation and from talking to my WH, Steve realized WH wasn't interested in changing. WH has multiple addictions, including A's. My point is, it's not so much a flaw in the tool (MB/Al-Anon) as lack of skill and knowledge on the part of the user - which results from the things you mentioned such as low self-esteem (my own defect of character that I've had to work on, caused by continual emotional and verbal abuse, emotional and sexual rejection, and being blamed for all WH's bad behavior).

Anyway, thanks for the post. I admire your honesty, your conviction, your presence of mind in the face of disaster, your thoughtfulness, and open mindedness to others' points of view.

LM,
I think you are following Harley's principles. I think that it would be more accurate of him to describe his philosophy as ending bad marriages rather than saving all marriages. To a caller on Joyce's radio show on Thursday who found out that her WH was not a FWH, he said that recovery from a second betrayal is much, much harder. By asking you about OM when you visited her, your wife continued to show more concern for him than for you. I can appreciate why that situation would end all possibility of future reconciliation.

In Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders, Harley says that the commitment of marriage is the commitment of mutual care, not the commitment to stay no matter how badly you are treated. The point at which a BS gives up hope that the WS will change and make the commitment to care may vary from person to person, but I don't think Harley suggests that people stay in bad marriages no matter what. On the private forum, he has recommended separation for some couples (including me) and he counseled one woman to file for divorce and never be open to reconciliation. Never. That woman had uncovered her husband's five year affair and he had continues seeing her secretly, he had placed her as an aide living with his father, the OW ended up threatening suicide and having an ER visit possibly for a drug overdose...the whole story was surreal. Anyway, my point is that Harley doesn't tell people to keep hoping no matter what for as long as they can stand. Your point of view is very helpful to those of us who have struggled a long time trying to find some hope in what seems obviously a hopeless situation to others but not yet to us.

Cherished

[ January 29, 2005, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Cherished ]

In a thread called SourPuss, I need a Reality Check, Please by fightingalone-again on February 20, 2005 11:03 PM you posted

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> ...This is part of the road to my persoanl recovery. I would be happy to tell more if people so dersire on another thred. <hr /></blockquote>Please do tell <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BW

Just popping in to say that I just read your story last night and was floored... speechless.

This morning I thought of something to say.

Many BS would LOVE the opportunity to stick a knife into the OP.

Not only did you get to do it,

But you got PAID to do it.

You earned his gratitude for it (one would hope),

You did the 'right' thing in an extra-ordinarily extreme situation,

You made very bold statement about your dedication to your profession that will probably become legend at your place of employment and inspire care-givers for generations to come.

Then I briefly wondered if it was possible to re-route the intestine to the oral cavity so that when he opened his mouth everyone could see that it was only sh:t coming out.

Then I scolded myself for having such a thought. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So there ya go. I also wanna say that though I often disagree with some of your stances, I have a huge respect for you that existed well before last nights reading.

Glad you're posting here.

John

bump

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BWise:
 In a thread called SourPuss, I need a Reality Check, Please by fightingalone-again on February 20, 2005 11:03 PM you posted

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> ...This is part of the road to my persoanl recovery. I would be happy to tell more if people so dersire on another thred. <hr /></blockquote>Please do tell <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BW <hr /></blockquote>It will probably take me some time to update my "story". It has to come in due time for me.

There are alot of tools I learned along the way to heal, and that is still evolving for me. I will tell more of my story soon.

Thank you for showing interest in my life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM

LM,
I understand...and it certainly was not my intention to push.

Here's hoping for a complete evolution in your own time.

BW

PS I recently read your story and have found encouragement.

Hello Lemonman.
Thanks for leading me to YOUR STORY.

It is a sad story.

You were SO IN LOVE and SO HAPPY in the beginning.
Quote from your first post:
"I have dated a number of women in my life BUT NO WOMAN had ever made me feel so completely and utterly "in love". I was whipped and worshipped my wife"

That makes me feel very very sad as I am sure she felt the same about you before she succumbed to the OVERPOWERING temptation when she met the OM.

Have you read through this thread recently?
Have your heartfelt feelings changed at all since you first came to MB in July of 2004?
(Especially those regarding forgiving her?)

Have you had any contact with your x-wife since your divorce?

I think I read that your love stopped the night in the Emergency Room when she asked how the OM was?
Did your love for her really stop or were you just heart broken?

It really is reasonable if she was a nice person at all, that she would be concerned how he (OM) was since they had been in a bad car accident. I would think LESS of her had she NOT asked, wouldn't you?

P.S. You don't have to answer any of my questions unless you want to.

Mary I would like to respond to your little question about the asking how the om was, even though it wasn't directed to me. The timing or plain just even asking that question was inconsiderate of his(lemonman) feelings and frankly how the om was doing is none of her business once he was in a sense in a stable condition where his life wouldn't end.

Quote

Have you read through this thread recently?
Have your heartfelt feelings changed at all since you first came to MB in July of 2004?
(Especially those regarding forgiving her?)

Have you had any contact with your x-wife since your divorce?

Did your love for her really stop or were you just heart broken?

It really is reasonable if she was a nice person at all, that she would be concerned how he (OM) was since they had been in a bad car accident. I would think LESS of her had she NOT asked, wouldn't you?

P.S. You don't have to answer any of my questions unless you want to.

LOl, Mary I am happy to answer your questions. Truthfully I haven't viewed this thread in quite a long time. It took me nearly 15 minutes to even find it.

As to your questions:

1. Have your heartfelt feelings changed at all since you first came to MB in July of 2004?
(Especially those regarding forgiving her)?

--> Yes and NO. I have softened greatly my stance on her and more importantly "forgiving" her. But not as you might think. You see, something that I had to learn in all of this, was that hating this woman (and OM) was a very energy depleting, soul killing, exhausting daily task for me. I could not "heal" untill I forgave her....but this had to happen for ME...not HER.

2. Have you had any contact with your x-wife since your divorce?
---> Yes we have had contact, but nothing of meaningful substance. I have stopped "loving" her in almost every sense of the word, so contact for me doesn't hold any semblance of meaning for me anymore. We have had idle "politicallY correct" chit chat when forced, but in reality, it doesn't matter to me, so I don't remember the contact with her anymore.

3. Did your love for her really stop or were you just heart broken?
----> Well ofcourse it didn't instantly "stop" with this incident..if only it were that easy. The love didn't stop for me that night, but any "true" future or meaning of "marriage" DIED that night. The "love" died in increments thereafter. Remember, love is a "verb".

4. It really is reasonable if she was a nice person at all, that she would be concerned how he (OM) was since they had been in a bad car accident. I would think LESS of her had she NOT asked, wouldn't you?
----> Mary, with all due respect, by the mere fact that you asked me this question, I am forced to ask you what "side" of the fence you "sit on" currently....LOL. I guess it is all in your perspective.

But seriously, her asking me that question was of great importance to me, and one of the most honest acts of her life. She gave me any final answers I needed by asking this question. You'll have to "infer" what I mean by this. It honestly would have NEVER crossed my mind whether she as a "good person" or would have I thought "less of her" had she not asked about his condition. Actions DEFINE HUMANS, NOT WORDS. In reality, there was not ANYTHING she could have done for me to think "less of her" in that moment. It would not have mattered in a negative sense for her to me. In the end, I am happy that she asked, but NOT for the reasons you may think.

I hope this answers some things for you. I am more than happy tp help you understand this, and perhaps help you clarify and explore the issues that you obviously have yourself and that you are trying to get help with by being here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

LM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I understand your words.

Oh my goodness. Lem, I was so taken aback by your words...your pain...your ability to do the right thing..and think clearly..I am actually rather in awe of it actually.

I think sometimes it is harder to hate...you were running on adrenaline...and that night you deep down allowed your deepest self to take over...you knew your M was on life support, and you did all you could do...you ended it imho, with utmost dignity.

wish there were more like you out there honestly.

totally understand how you said there was an actual day, a time, a moment when the love died. I too had that...I had that awakening. when it just dies. and you are left with the aftermath.

my bro in law is a surgeon. he had a 3 week affair a few years back with his first assist...end of residency, and he was working ungodly hours and my sis was a working mom with two very little ones. they healed nicely as he had that "moment of clarity" in his life where he saw everything rushing away from him...it was right after I separated from xh ironically...same timeframe.

You are a MB hero. You are one of the "recovery stories" here...so am I.

You asked me why I could not take my xh back even if he does the whole repentance, minister, recant issue...the man I loved is dead. simple. i had the same moment of death in my marriage. There were several "codes" called on it...but I believe the defining moment was when I was in court on valentine's day hearing the quote read before a packed out courthouse..."I lived like a rock star and loved every minute of it"...then the attorney asked my then wh, "is that a rolex on your wrist Mr. Darth?" and then went on to show how he had NOT paid us child support or ss in several months and I had just resumed my career after being at home for 3 years...having had my little son.

I was in a strange state, no family, few friends, almost totally destitute financially, xh had destroyed my credit during the last 3 mos. of separation before court, he had spent the visible assets in las vegas (30 k in 1 weekend), and I had been served 2 eviction notices. I had perfect credit before our M and before the first court hearing btw...I remember seeing my xh smirk on the stand. I remember it all as a haze...same way I felt on day when they buried my father almost six years ago...same type of haze. I remember tears falling down my face. It was surreal. Then walking out of court like a prizefighter, the verdict was in my favor, if there is ever a winner really in divorce court. People were patting me, slapping me on the back. Saying things like "give em ******" and stuff like that...and he was boo'd as he walked out of court. Actually boo'd.

from the time I left him to the time I was first in court, I lived in fear...fear of being worried I could not make it on my own with ds in a strange town. fear of being broke. fear that I was not good enough in my profession (stupid I know)...just basic self doubt. ran on adrenaline alone for first year being legally separated and dealing with the multiple court appearances. but it was the first one...that was the ending of the real love...the beginning of my season of mourning.

You are so brave to come here and bare your soul. my lord, this must be so tough for you. both you and I have had our share of dramas to overcome...and somehow we're still standing.

but yes, there is a point of no return. where we realize that the affair had NOTHING to do with us...it has everything...EVERYTHING..to do with our WS..and usually for very stupid reasons independent from us. I realize that now...it certainly took a bit longer for me to realize it than you. Feel that had I been working longer, that part of "me" still intact rather than being isolated as a sahm in a strange state, I'd woken up earlier and recovery started much much quicker.

sometimes I don't get the whole thing here. It is so different being on the other side...where we see the past much clearly...it always is when you're reflecting isn't it? we wonder why so much is allowed? I wonder why I stayed as long or even did as long of a plan A as i did? in the end, I think it's ok b/c my conscience is clear...one day my boy will know, if he doesn't already, that his mom did all she could to keep her family together but that his dad just had other plans. and in the end, I am good w/that b/c I want to be with somebody that "gets" me...truly gets me. and is not afraid of somebody who wishes to grow...and is not afraid of somebody who is sure of themselves..

and I am also thinking you were right. the guy I am dating..did something I will not write about here, did it yesterday, and I am thinking you may be also right about the dead in the water comment. but it has NOTHING to do with any other person. i am at that point where I am good w/being either single or not. just waiting for that moment of clarity...the GOOD moment of clarity quite possibly should i meet the right one...or maybe just a moment of clarity, a good one when I realize I would rather jsut be single? who knows. at least have learned my heart is totally open now. it's taken a good long while to get here.

your xwife has lost one great man. sorry she had to learn this lesson the hard way.

btw...I am saving up now to begin working on my mater's (mmsc) at either end of 06 or beginning of 07. need something more to tackle...time to make life a tad more interesting!

Hi Lemonman.
Your 'saga' is so interesting that I thought I would bring it to the top of this MB forum this morning.

Peachy wrote you a nice letter.

You did GOOD answering my questions.
I have some more.
Again, it is up to you whether you answer them or not.

I imagine the OM knew that it was the H of the woman he was in the car accident with that did the surgery on him. Did he thank you?~eek~ Did his wife know he was with another woman (the surgeon's wife) in the accident? Was she able to forgive him? Are they still married? Did your wife re-marry? Do you have a special lady you care about now and that cares about you in your life?

Ok, that is all the 'Enquirer' questions for this morning. ~lol~

Good grief what a story, LM. I'm amazed that you were able to keep it together to perform such an involved surgery so successfully. Maybe that's what a surgical residency is all about - grace under pressure. Now I'm humming the tune from the Harlem Globetrotters cartoon....

No contact is so important. I have a good friend whose H had an affair. In my friend's case, her H immediately dropped the OW like a hot potato because he wanted to save his M. His family was the most important thing to him, and discovery of the A clarified the issue. She tells me that things are better now than they ever were.

In my case, I had ended the A years before my H found out simply because I couldn't look at myself any more. An awful feeling, knowing you're lower than a rat. I thought I could just hide things, and change my way of being. It worked, until...

I wound up coming clean with him after he heard a half-truth from a former friend this summer. I just couldn't hide anything any more, and he was insistent that I tell all or that was it. My best friend was my intermediary. In the intervening years since the A, I had given him all the passwords for my email and cell phone because I never wanted to be able to do something so awful again. He never wondered why I did this, because he was much too wrapped up in his own space and activities, part of what led to my crummy state of mind, not that it excuses anything I did. He's so much more clued in now, so much more willing to spend time with me, that it is truly a great thing. I choose to look at the positive.

My H and I have both agreed that unless there was immediate non-contact, there is no way either of us could persist in a marriage in competition with an OP. From reading LM's story, the deception is the worst thing. It adds insult to injury.

I know that there is one person on the board who still misses her H and would take him back even though he has been living with the OW for many months now. While I respect her decision to live her life in the way she sees fit, I know that I could not do that, nor could my H. It would be a deal-breaker. Perhaps we are not as strong as she.

LM, thanks very much for your story.

lemonman I am truley in awe. I am so saddened by what you have been through. I just can't imagine any woman looking at any Om when they were M to such a man as yourself. I am proud to say I know you and have read your story.

Lem you need to relize we all make our own decisions for our lives. You made yours and I would have done the same as you. Maybe I would not be strong enough to have operated on this OM. Who is to say how we will react under such circumstances. But you did and did honorably. I actually feel sorry for your exW - she is a fool. Once a fool always a fool they say.

I hope and wish for you to find another W someday when the time is right. Once who will take great pride in holding your arm and appreciate the gold she has found. Peace Lem.

lem, although your comments cut right to the bone I still respect them and consider what you are saying.

Your story is defenitely "unique" in the typicalness of A.

I'm glad that you have recovered to a point where you happy with yourself and the decisions you have made.

Keep posting since BS's need all the help they can get.

Thanks!

LM,

It was interesting to re-read this. I can see you softening up in your recent posts. You've come a long way.

-AD

Hi LM.
I just noticed your email reply. Thank you.
I wrote this and was going to send it but decided to copy and paste it here instead.

"Thanks LM, I really don't have any questions to email you, just go to MB to YOUR STORY. I asked you some questions there. Also, there were several more replies from the LM fan club.lol

A lot of people have read your amazing story...ummm there should be a beter word than STORY....Saga? Adventure? Tale?
Oh well, I guess STORY works.

By the way, you commented which side of the fence I am on.
If you read what I wrote on cardsonly's thread called something like "Help,getting over online affair", you will see my struggle.

He (OM) took up a LOT of space in my heart (still does even in his absence) and it is hard to fill it now without him in my life. Sorry, if that sounds cavelier but it is just the way it is.

Being married does not make us IMMUNE to affairs of the heart. (But it sure sure should!)

Thanks Lem...well, just for being you. I think I am a hopeless romantic because I would have liked to have seen you and your wife rekindle that first spark you had for one another. (I hope you have found someone else to fill your heart.)

In this world there are sheep (followers) and goats (leaders that have a mind of their own)

THAT'S YOU, DR. LEMONMAN "

Lem,

This is an inspiring story. It sounds to me like you knew who you were from the start, almost. I am wondering if before your XW had her affair, you felt or thought that any infidelity would be a deal buster and there would be no second chance.

I ask this because before I became a BS, I would have bet anything that it would have ended my marriage. Well, it didn't, but I would be lying if I didn't admit that I often feel that maybe it should have.

I believe that some of us are not actually capable of moving on with their own personal recovery while still in a marriage where infidelity occurred.

To clarify my situation, my FWH had a lengthly EA which became a PA. He claims that he never loved OW, but did have "feelings" for her as a long time friend. One might call it a fondness.

The A died a natural death before D-day and NC was not a problem. My FWH loves me, always has, never doubted it, and never planned on any long term R with OW.

I know that I would not have been able to conduct a successful plan A. The patience of some of the folks here is amazing. Fortunately, for me, I never had to deal with Fog or withdrawl. He came to the conclusion on his own that he had made the biggest mistake of his life and if he didn't get out of it, his life would be ruined.

Guess what I am saying is that I 100% agree with

Quote

I know that to be true to myself, I could NEVER accept that she continued to have feelings for OM and me stay with her. THis is just the way I feel. I know that I COULD not do this.

For me and FWH it is ZERO TOLERANCE, and contact, ever is the deal breaker. Any relationship in the future that makes me feel uncomfortable in any way will be a deal breaker.

This has been the single most painful and difficult thing in my life. No way would I ever do it again. Heck, I am not even sure it has been worth it.

Does that make sense?

Whome - I feel the same way. In my past anyone who lied or decieved me I walked away from. Why I choose to stay now is beyound me.

:emmonman - I just wanted to say I feel you are starting to heal. Being able to write what you have been thro may be a start for you. I do hope so.

Quote

Yes, without a doubt I would answer "yes". In a million and one years, I would not have ever believed that I would forgive an act as cruel, despicable and morally reprehensible as "infidelity".....but as many have also done here....I did forgive and try and "reconcile".

I never thought that I was capable of giving a "second" chance. But I did. At least to me it was a "second chance".

FOR ME PERSONALLY, tolerating multiple false recoveries, multiple affairs ("multiple to ME means "MORE" THAN "ONE" "ACT" OF INFIDELITY), Long term affairs, etc..would not be a "second chance" to me.....I don't see that as a "second chance". To ME, more than a "second chance" like above would be a DEAL BREAKER, and would be more than I COULD HANDLE.

When it happened AGAIN.....I had no choice but to follow my heart and soul and do what was right FOR me in removing this person from my life. I realize that it is not always so "cut and "dry" in life, but TO ME, it was. I can understand a "lapse" in judgememnt, an act of "weakness" a "mishap" a "grave error"....but I could not and WOULD NOT accept a SECOND WILLFUL ACT of betrayal when the consequences were clearly spelled out, when the earth shattering episode had already destroyed lifes (OM had wife and small children).....To "accept" it again, to "tolerate" it again would not be something that I could live with. I could NOT look my self in the mirror and like what I saw.

To accept this act of betrayal again in my life, to let this "person" back into my life and "arm" them with the knife to "kill" again was NOT in me to do.

The consequences of my doing this (holdign to my beliefs and boundaries) undoubtedly led to a quicker divorce. Those were the CONSEQUENCES of my actiions. You know what? That was the best decision that I ever made in my life. I thank God every day that he gave me the clarity and strength to do what I had to do to get me on the road to RECOVERY. I am "recovering" and if I say so myself...."flourishing" like never before in my life.

I can say without question that I "gave all I could give" to my XWW after the affair was brought to light. Now, in comparision to what many others here have tolerated and gone through here, that may not be saying much....but still all the same, what I "gave" (forgiving an act of infidelity) was more than I dreamed I could ever do.

When people talk about doing Plan A and Plan B and "sticking it out" for years to be sure that they have done "all they could do" and have no "regrets" when they divorce.....I do understand, I can thankfully say I have no regrets after doing "all I could do". It is all the same to me.

I just hope and pray that others get the same "clarity" to do what they NEED TO do (whether that means recovering the marriage or separating or sadly divorcing).

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LM --

Forgiveness is not the same as tolerance. Coping with ongoing inconsiderate behavior (which is essentially what an affair is) is unwise.

If your W did come back and beg forgiveness and want to reconcile, who knows? But she hasn't.

You removed yourself from a perosn who chose to be inconsiderate. Your story is an inspiration and it does follow MB principles. Harley is sometimes misunderstood as advocating staying married no matter what. In fact, what he wants to do is end bad marriages, which is what you did.

Your advice is much welcome. I'm still out there getting beaten up, figuratively, and I read your story and look for that moment of clarity, too. It's coming.

Cherished

Lemonman,

I'm sorry for a couple things. First, for your story. You are right, we all have our stories, and they all count! They are each of our's, and they all hurt the same.

Some time ago, you posted a reply to a post of mine. You were sound in your response, I took it well, but asked you your story because I was curious. You didn't respond, and now I understand. I'm sorry for asking earlier, when you were not ready.

For what it's worth, I think what you did for this man is amazing!

Best wishes to you!
Karona

LM, did you see this excerpt from: Dr Harley's article Coping with Infidelity: Part 4 Overcoming Resentment:

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In fact, when a couple goes through a recovery after an affair, and then experience another affair, the resentment is often more intense and more persistent after the second recovery. With multiple affairs and recoveries, resentment is almost impossible to overcome. But then, in those cases I usually feel that the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree.

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In fact, when a couple goes through a recovery after an affair, and then experience another affair, the resentment is often more intense and more persistent after the second recovery. With multiple affairs and recoveries, resentment is almost impossible to overcome. But then, in those cases I usually feel that the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree.

I knew I had read that somewhere.....always made lots of sense to me. I absolutely know with zero doubt that a repeat of infidelity would end my marriage immediately. To me, it would mean that all of the remorse and regret that my FWH has shown was nothing but another lie.

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ML:

Thanks for bringing this up to the thread. It makes complete sense to me (obviously). Often, I would be wondering if "it was just me". I guess what makes this so hard to also comprehend is that many people think that I did not go through a "recovery"....which if you go by the standards essentially used here...it would include a withdraw and a few false recoveries, repeated contacts, repeated declarations of boundaries, etc.......I never got that far......"addiction" could have been involved in my case as the OM and my XW had a long previous dysfunctional relationship...maybe they are/were "addicted" to each other...who knows....Thank God, it is not my problem any longer...

The OM has 2 small children which he essentially does NOT support emotionally or financially. As is so common here, the fall out from infidelity spans miles long. Even now, as I am officially "removed" from having anything to do with my WW, I still feel "guilt" and "pain" for her actions and how they affected these children. I am blessed with the abilities to "help" them and I do so finanicially in a very inconspicous manner. Maybe I do this as a way to feel less "guilty"...I dunno, I think about it often. I never did those 2 children harm, but yet I still "feel guilty" for their pain. There is something that I have to learn here.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, as a new member here, I have to say that your story is one of the most poignant I have read. Shakespearean tragedy at it's worst. Thanks for sharing. Whatever happened between your wife and the OM? Anyway, you did the right thing, for certain.

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Whatever happened between your wife and the OM? Anyway, you did the right thing, for certain.

Ok, I am gonna explain this with as much psychobabble as I can muster. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

They are "dysfuncationally"-functional together.....although the word "together" could be interpreted in a multitude of ways. They no doubt still see "each other", but are just "good friends" you know... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I think their relationship is the microcosm for all affair relationships. Their functionality together thrives on the "dysfunction" in their lives. When things are "smooth" they can't function, so they "create" dysfunction to function.....understand? This is not that different than what we see with many people here also....and this is said with a sad face... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I thought long and hard before posting on your thread.. Mainly b/c I feel "inferior or inadequate" but I guess having your spouse cheat on you multiple times doesn't really do a whole lot for one's self esteem.. hence where I am at today.

My 3rd DDay was about a month ago.. 3rd DDay!! when I type it out it looks insane but it's the truth. When I came on here initially seeking help I was met by some cold hard facts delivered by you. It was a tough pill to swallow but as the intital shock and devastation wears off I am re-reading some of your posts and come to understand. You speak with great wisdom and I thank you for your honesty and truth. Truth is what I need at times like these.

I am in awe at the "graceful" way you handled your crisis. It speaks volumes about you as a person. But I am still saddened by the mess and destructions the children are left with and it breaks my heart. You see, 26 years ago my father cheated on my mother and was involved in a car accident that left him paralyzed from the waist down. The OW was with him as well as my uncle and the Ow's sister. All walked away with nothing but scracthes. My father was left unable to walk and a colocostomy bag was also put in. It destroyed our lives. My mother also made the hard decision to end the marriage that night. They divorced and here I am today.. married to man (who in more ways than one) is similar to my father.

The saddest thing for me is my father left behind a daughter who has horrible low self esteem, little self respect, huge C/A. --afraid to be walked out on again. That person is me.

But.. I know that deep down.. that is Not really ME.. I will find myself.. again. Thanks for the strength you give me. You are an inspiration.

LM,

Truth is stranger than fiction, isn't it?

TMCM

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I think their relationship is the microcosm for all affair relationships. Their functionality together thrives on the "dysfunction" in their lives. When things are "smooth" they can't function, so they "create" dysfunction to function.....understand? This is not that different than what we see with many people here also....and this is said with a sad face...

Okay, I sucked an extra beer back before I posted this... but...

Don't be sad for the lack of dysfunction you could provide for your wife. This post (snixon) speaks volumes. You did good, man. I was wondering what happened, since I feel that most of life is a learning experience, and while not expected, what life throws our way is totally presented to us to learn from and enable us to grow, spiritually. Both of you. There are (IMO) many lives for you to "correct" things, and this is NOT the end.

I know I go against the grain here, but I believe in spiritual lessons and fulfillment, and this is one of those things that I believe you and your ex-wife will relive again, since it was such a traumatic experience. It's something you'll have to overcome to progress. May I ask, what is your birthsign, and your ex's? I really feel what you have gone through is truly symbolic of a life lesson, and is bound to be repeated again and again, dependant upon your sign and your ex-wifes'.

You both seem unfulfilled. It's sad, but only for now. You NEED to remember what you have learned. She needs to learn more though. I suspect she is further down the "astrological" chain than you are. I'm suspecting you are "above" her astrologically, or in laymans' terms, an "older" spirit. You're a Capricorn/Aquarius/Pisces maybe. She would be Aries/Taurus/Gemini...

Anyway, just an observation. I don't mean to tread on anyone's toes, and certainly don't mean to dilute your MORE than emotional response here on these boards. I just happen to tend towards a more eclectic approach to rehabilitation, in every regard.

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totally understand

totally agree

I would go so far as to say some marriages trying to recover also share this characteristic ... but it is especially valid for marriages to a previous affair partner!

As well as so-called "poly-marriages" involving more than one partner require dysfunction

yep!

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BINGO!

I witnessed this in my mother's M to OM. I realized later that the reason they needed the "dysfunction"--the excitement--the conflict--the drama was to distract them from themselves.

The quiet healthy functional relationship calls upon the intimate self and requires the strength to examine weaknesses (getting to the REAL stuff!). For people thriving on this dysfuntion, such an examination is either terrifying (for the hyper-insecure) or simply impossible (for narcissts).

LM,

I'd very much like your thoughts on the topic of the thread title When to tell the TRUTH...

TMCM

Lem...

Thanks bud for again allowing light to go off in my head...the period I am in now is the aftermath basically...am searching for that shard of logic...the why.

And I may have found part of it in your words...these words you posted especially:

"They are "dysfuncationally"-functional together.....although the word "together" could be interpreted in a multitude of ways."

Wow.

My xh is one that thrives on chaos. When our lives were quiet, and good...it was considered by him "not exciting". He is as I now know an endorphin junkie. And the high feeling is created by the chaos. No chaos, no danger, no highs for the xh. In a wierd way, I think now that my xh and hiw ow/w were actually much better suited for each other than he and I. They both thrive on that chaos high.

It is kind and wonderful what you are doing for the kids although I don't know and can only suppose what it is. I know how that feels. Earlier this year, during all the turmoil, I took FV's other son from a previous bf, along with my ds to a book reading and signing...was for Harry Potter...They had so much fun. I hold no resentment for any child at all and it also pains me to see little ones tossed about by that chaos.

My life may be mundane now as compared to several years back...but in retrospect after reading your words, much has come "back" to me...how my xh could only fare well a few years at a time without chaos. HIs life could be characterized by patterns...with chaos and without chaos.

When I met my xh, he was divorced, as he told me. His w was living about four states away and papers were supposedly signed and it was over..a.s I was told. We had a good dating life...things were great for about 2 years and then, whammo, his demeanor changed in a manner of 3 weeks. He claimed he needed space. So we broke up. I being quite independent, was initially sad, but began dating around. Having just as much fun single. We did NOT cohabitate mind you though. I continued on as I'd always done. Then surprisingly, he showed up and within a month of taking him back he had proposed...after a 3 mos. split. Then came after that NO chaos again. Not for several years. Very good life...quiet. Then when son was about 2...chaos came again. When son was born, slowly I noticed that xh went to casinos during some business trips. Then whenever we'd go on vacation in the carribbean ...he would find his way into a casino. Beginning of chaos.

Too long to write...but there was all along definite signs that he could not handle happiness or peace. He craved the feeling, the high of chaos. I didn't see that. I did not know anybody who had gone thru this before. And certainly did not see it when I was with him. Not until now in looking back.

What some people perceive as mundane, I perceive as calm...cool...good. I think it's the day to day living that keeps affairs going. They want the high. They want the feeling of danger, the feeling of daring. They can't get it at home..why? Because being home is safety, it is peace, it is calm. They crave chaos because of the "feeling alive" concept. I remember now over and over my xh telling me how he felt "alive for first time in his life" during his affairs and how he felt "so much more alive" when away from me. Why? I didn't give him any chaos. I caused no trouble.

I think this is probably the same with your XW and OM. They are dysfunctionally perfect. IF such a creature exists, that thrives and survives in a life solely based upon stupidity. Chaos. Malcontent.

This is something I believe should be scrutinized by possibly MB and harleys. I think it is a foundation of some people's lives...and why some WS may never be able to function as a H or a W. They are simply driven differently than the majority of people. My xh once said that why he was doing the affairs, the risky business dealings. He said he was never afraid of doing what he wanted b/c he'd rather "feel alive. do the unthinkable b/c everybody else does not want to do it". Like a man bunjee jumping every day basically off the roof of his house...that's what my bro in law calls him. He used to say with pride how he "was not like the other guys out there...that I'd be bored with the other guys for that very reason."

In the end, I embrace my mundane-ness. I like me this way. I like where I am. I still search. Still want to know why this happened and it seems that I am inching closer and closer to the truth. Even when I get most of it, I will still as I suspect, shake my head and think it was stupid.

Thanks for the lightbulb friend. Glad to know you.

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Then I briefly wondered if it was possible to re-route the intestine to the oral cavity so that when he opened his mouth everyone could see that it was only sh:t coming out.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> What a great idea! And how lucky is OM, anyway, that somebody didn't suggest it to you en route to OR, instead of in this post now that all danger of succumbing to temptation is past?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Too bad your thread wasn't 20 pages long, so I could've put off housework for twice as long! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

t&l

^Bump^