campdog, i have not been to this site for obout a year now. i just stopped in to see which old friends were still here and saw your post. i haven't had time to read the who thread but spot read thru it and all have given you excellent advice. i will try to find time to read up on your complete story but as life in my house is so hectic and time consuming it may take me a couple of days.

i just wanted to let you know that i have been thru something very similar. i am raising our oc (grace) and the bio dad is paying cs and taking regular vistations.

i can also tell you one thing. that if you are strong enough to stay with your w and work on your marriage you will be strong enough to love that child whether the bio dad is in or out of the picture. (from my viewpoint it would be much easier if he were out but not because of the emotional problems from me but rather from fullhouse (my wife)).

i love grace as much as any of my other 7 children. she has a special place in my heart that the others don't because of the situations regarding her creation.

it may be a couple of days but i will try to catch up on your story.

be proud and hold your head up for the character you are showing trying to work thru this nightmare.

pops

Yeah bro, when this whole nightmare started and she told me she loved the guy I told her to go with her heart and not her mind. I've made basically the same point a number of times since without belaboring the point. SHE said the affair was over and SHE said she wanted to make our relationship work.

Problem is that she is using the exact same words to reassure me now that she used before I caught her lying. Same look of sincerity, everything. I keep telling her that I won't accept anything but NC and she still believes that they can be 'friends' "not now, but in years to come". I know it's the Fog but she doesn't. She can't envision a future without her partner in adultery in it because of the baby. Actually neither can I but MY vision of the future doesn't include my wife interacting with her lover.

On the up side my son is going on 9 months and I KNOW it's been at least 68 days since she brought him the baby since I've never let him out of my sight since d-day. No subpoena, no court orders so maybe you and K called the shot on that one. It can only be a handfull of times he's seen 'his' son so how much effort has the creep made to 'be a part of his son's life' in almost a year?

I believe you when you say it will get better my friend. If I didn't believe that then I would have been gone already. I am praying hard that she is telling me the truth this time and that it's only the Doubt Demon whispering in my ear giving me a hard time. I'll know in a few days.

pops, I would gratefully inhale any of your own insights that you would be willing to share with me. That goes especially for anything having to do with interactions between your spouse and your child's father. I've said it before but this is by far the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. The only easy thing is loving my new son. This is a long thread (mostly because I'm a windy [censored]) so don't feel like you have to read it right away, or even at all. I never counted but I think the majority of the posts are mine. I do thank you for taking the time to reach out to me. God bless you and good luck to you.

Hi Pops,

Just wanted to say hello and to express the thought that I hope you and FullHouse are doing well. Are you paying attention to your health? You had better be, fella. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Take care and God Bless,

JL

Campdog, I've got to tell you how wonderful it sounds to me to hear how much you love this baby! And your right, if this man was so interested in this child, he'd be fighting nail and tooth to be with him and your opinion of him sounds just as you said.

Your son is very lucky to have you in his life and raiseing him. You will be blessed from this.

I too hope for you sake that your doubts are just doubts and not truths as you deserve so much.

Your wife is very lucky to have you, and I hope she does what it takes to help heal your marriage.

Keep your son safe and do what's best for him. Which is what it sounds as if your doing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Needs, I feel like I understand how bOb feels when everyone congratulates him on his recovery with Squid. It's not a big deal to me that I have the feelings for my son that I do. He is not responsible for the actions of my wife and her partner in adultery nor is it concievable that he should lack for anything because of my own failings and frailties. I have only to see his smile when he sees me or feel his small arms around my neck to know that to love him the way I do is the only possible course. But I remain sure of little else.

Had a mini discussion with my wife yesterday about the baby and his father. It went well for a change. No anger on her part or 'pushing' on my part. During the course of the talk my wife told me that she made her partner in adultery promise not to make 'trouble' for us and he did so. Later, she said that she told him to go ahead and take us to court. So of course I'm wondering which statement is true or if both are. If both statements are true then I'm wondering when she gave him the go ahead on court action. She claims that she hasn't spoken to him since Father's Day.

No movement that I can see on my NC boundary. She still feels like they can be 'friends'. I kind of feel like she hasn't had contact with him since she made an offhand comment that "he's through with me" which I let pass. But I feel like she still hasn't let go of him yet. Am I missing something? I'm not sure how to interperet her stated decision to make him go the court route or even sure if I believe her. She gives every impression of being a loving mother and wife and I feel like all her time is accounted for but the Doubt Demon is my constant companion. I'm not even sure if that's such a bad thing because I fear what it will do to my heart if I trust her and her words and I find that she is still deceiving me. On the other hand I worry about denying honest efforts on her part to rebuild our marriage. Sometimes (like now) I feel like my head is going to explode. Has that ever actually happened to anyone here? I have these visions of my head swelling with conflicting emotions and thoughts and then just popping all over the keyboard like a water balloon. At least my kids wouldn't have to ask for their turn on the computer. I wonder if they (or she) would even notice if I was sitting here headless. Not easy this plan A stuff.

I am curious whether all the extended families to all involved know? And if so how that has impacted the situation.

CD,

A few years back I was a member of a men's only gym that had a rash of injuries from its new members that the owners of the club chose to put up a huge sign at the entrance: PLEASE LEAVE YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR. Well Plan A and Plan B also requires the BS to do the same for the ego driven, emotion based actions actually end up doing more harm than good. It is NOT about becoming a doormat but about becoming emotionally strong so that no matter what the outcome of the marriage turns out to be, the BS will benefit either way. Always remember that your emotions will almost always steer you wrong when it comes to taking action. Your final decisions should be made only after careful and deliberate consideration for the long term interests of ALL parties involved and with the resoluteness that once you made them that there is no turning back, ever.

TMCM

I think I get your point about ego and emotion driven actions TMCM but how do you feel about instincts ? By instinct I mean those thoughts and ideas that I get about my situation that I cannot prove or disprove but that have the FEEL of truth? In this context I mostly distrust them but in more instances than not they have proven to be correct. Over the course of my life I have learned to listen to these emotions and instincts and to trust them but this is all virgin territory for me and I'm trying as hard as I possibly can to avoid any missteps. I see separation rushing towards me and I so want to be able to feel that I did everything possible to avoid it. As many people have pointed out to me it's real important to do an outstanding plan A.

Thank you in advance to any of my friends (or anyone else) for your thoughts on this.

Instincts are born and honed out of experience and they can help a person raise his/her awareness of what is happening around him/her when the facts are inconclusive. The problem is not with listening to our instincts but in avoiding the sometimes irresistible temptation of drawing conclusions and acting from them all because we are terrified of not knowing for certain the whole truth of the situation.

The reality is that almost no one is prepared to emotionally deal with the discovery of an affair by one's spouse. Our initial reactions are usually a mixture of shock, fear and anger which many times drive us to actions that are counteproductive to improve the chances of saving/rebuilding the marriage. When a BS chooses to faithfully implement Plan A/Plan B, he/she should be aware that emotional detachment is the key to healthily recover from the affair no matter what the outcome of the marriage turns out to be. How does one attain emotional detachment? By making peace with the truth that we cannot control others, including our spouse. By making peace with the truth that the marriage, as we knew it, is over and that it may/may not be possible to create a new happier/healthier from the ground up. By making peace with the truth that only actions from the WS, and nothing else, are indicative of his/her true intentions. By making peace with the truth that personal and marital recoveries for both BS and WS could take up to 2 or more years. See how all of these have 'By making peace with' as their common denominator? It should since only a peaceful person has a true chance of making wise and informative decisions that he/she can live regardless of the outcome.

TMCM

And if you want an example of emotional detachment ['making peace with...'], you have to look no further than Pops own words to you on the other thread:


A FWS is much more afraid of a peaceful BS willing to let him/her go for good than a panicky, needy BS.

TMCM

Campdog--

I have hesitated to respond to this thread because I don't have experience with an affair. But I do have experience with childhood rape, and I've seen you mention several times that this is something your wife is just now beginning to deal with. If it can be at all helpful to you, I'd like to share some of how my experience has affected my behavior towards my husband. I was raped by an uncle for four years, starting when I was four years old. I only remembered the full extent of the abuse four years ago, after nine years of marriage. I have worked very hard to heal as much as possible (and I do believe a full and complete recovery is possible). But I have been shocked to realize how completely the rapes influenced the way I perceived my husband, and therefore, the way I treated him. I have seen you mention some things about your wife's treatment of you, and it makes me wonder if something similar could be going on with her.

Looking back now, I realize that as soon as we became engaged, I began to perceive my husband as an abuser. I did not recognize this at the time, it was very much a subconscious shift. But because we were getting married, he would become someone who had constant access to me, which, because of my experiences, made him an abuser. The very fact that he wanted to have SF with me and expected to, made him a monster in my eyes. So, I now realize that he was just being a normal and loving husband, but my perceptions had been warped because of the abuse I experienced when I was young. I can see how for someone with this perception, an affair would feel safe, because it's optional, not mandatory as with a marriage. I have no idea if this has been true for your wife, I only offer it as a possiblity because of what I have come to understand about myself. (And I am certainly not condoning the affair, only trying to help answer the "why?" questions you have asked.)

You mentioned that you are in counseling. I hope the counselor is helping you both understand how pervasive the effects of childhood rape are. When we started counseling, I thought our counselor was over-doing it by focusing so much on the abuse. But over time I began to see how much of my hurtful behavior in our marriage really did stem from how I perceived men in general, and my husband in particular. Again, it had nothing to do with his behavior, because he actually is a very kind and gentle man. Now that I have released that perception of him, I feel very safe with him, and very happy about SF in our marriage. This could only come about after much intense healing work surrounding the abuse.

I did leave him, twice, and started to divorce him at one point, but we have been healing together now for two years. He has been told that most men wouldn't still be here after what he has gone through in our marriage. I hope I don't offend by posting even though I don't have experience with infidelity. It's just that some of your descriptions of your wife's behavior reminded me so much of things I have done that I thought I could offer some insight.

One last thought I just remembered. I think you asked at one point how your wife could live with you while conducting the affair. It's very possible that she automatically dissociates (disconnects from her feelings). I have been learning to re-connect, but I have spent much of my life disconnected from my feelings. It's automatic for me, because I had to do it so much to survive my childhood. My counselor started pointing out to me how anytime an uncomfortable topic came up during a session, I was suddenly "gone". She even taught my husband to recognize it, so he could help me when I did it at home. He has learned to touch my arm and call me by name, particularly during SF. Again, not to condone or justify what she was doing, only to offer a possible explanation.

I hope your wife is able to heal enough to know how blessed she is to have a husband who loves her so much. Even more importantly, I hope she can get to the point where she can feel that love, allow it into her heart, and then express her love in return.

With wishes for healing and recovery for both of you,
KathCA

Offend? Kath, your words and actions have given me hope and a reason to go on at precisely the time I needed it most. I have been thinking that I was fast approaching the point where I would abandon my efforts to save my relationship with my wife and leave. My strength and resolve have been eroded by the lack of reponse from my wife and I have been distraught over what I should do.

I know you registered solely for the purpose of telling me the things you told me. I know how terrible your experience was and how it changed your life. I can only guess at the guts it took to write about such things to a stranger. You did those things to help me and what's more you did those things NOW. This is not an accident. Yet again I see His awesome hand moving to fold me in His arms when I most needed comfort and a way to see my path. He made you one of his arms Kath, and in so doing He showed his love and faith in you. I don't know if you share in my belief but know that however you feel you have performed an incredible kindness. No offense taken Ma'am, I'm typing this through tears of joy and wonder.

What you speak about hits the mark concerning my wife. I was there when she recovered her memories and I saw her go to pieces. We had one joint counseling session where she spoke of what her experience had done to her and the pain was so real and palpable that it filled the room. Our counselor was even moved to tears and he later told us that it was the first time in 20 years he had broken his rule of not crying during a session. How can I leave a woman I love so much who is in such pain? What would it say about me to focus solely on my own pain and needs when they are so small compared to the burden my beloved is carrying? I already knew these things but was losing sight of them. Your words cleared away the vines and showed me my way through this dark forest. There will be time for me to tend to my wounds and heal. For now I must tend to the wounds of the woman I love and pray that I have what I need within me. I think I do, I pray that I do.

Thank you Lord. Thank you Kath.

Campdog--

Thank you for letting me know how much my post helped you. I knew I was supposed to write it, but I was still very nervous. I actually registered a week ago because I felt so strongly I needed to speak to you, but I kept putting it off. Last night, I knew it was time and I couldn't delay any longer. Hearing that the timing was right means a lot and strengthens my faith that God is watching over all of us.

I just came across your other thread about considering Plan B, and another thought jumped out at me. I know that for 28 years, I avoided accessing the core of the pain inside me. I worked so hard to avoid it that I still amaze myself with what I was able to go through and still "smile" to the world. Even after accessing the memories, I still resisted fully feeling the pain for two more years. It was only when my fourth baby was stillborn 2 1/2 years ago that I finally hit rock-bottom. It was only then that I fully accessed the pain that was deep inside me, and it was only then that my heart could be opened to feel God's love for me, my husband's love for me, and my children's love for me. I don't know if everyone with pain locked deep inside has to be forced to access it, but I suspect that's why we all come up against heartbreak sooner or later. It's like we have to be humbled to the very dust before we will release the pain we've been suppressing. Maybe at some point you will need to separate from your wife, but if that were to happen, perhaps that would be her "rock-bottom" and would serve as the catalyst she needs to really heal? One of the best things my husband did was to firmly stop allowing me to mistreat him. He was able to maintain compassion for the pain I was in, but not allow the mistreatment. I still marvel that he was willing to do it, and that he did it.

I said in my other post that I do believe complete healing is possible, even from something as horrendous as being raped as a child. The joy I feel in my life now, as a wife, as a mother and as a person who is happy to be alive (for the first time) still amazes me. I want to offer that hope and encouragement, because I never thought I could have the happiness in my marriage and in my life that I have now, and I know my husband often wondered if he'd ever wake up from the nightmare we were living.

With the utmost respect for the tremendous work you're doing,
KathCA

Kath, I hope you read this thread at least one more time. I'm glad you said what you did about God watching over us. He heard you and has used you again to do His work. I was so moved by what you wrote that I told my wife about it. She asked if she could read your posts and I saw her weeping softly as she was doing so. What you said touched something inside her and she asked me how she could write something here! This is from someone who cannot express herself to me about what happened to her regarding either her rape or her affair.

I helped her register from around the corner so that I wouldn't see her log-in name. I think she would benefit greatly from coming here and I didn't want to inhibit her from expressing her true feelings by thinking I was reading her words. She asked me what to do and I told her General Questions was probably the best place to start. I know she posted something but I haven't looked for it. I wanted you to know that in reaching out to me you have also helped someone who is hurting very deeply to take a first baby step towards healing. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Campdog--

Yep, still here! I'm sure I'll be coming to this web site for a while. Dr. Harley's work is amazing. I feel like we're building our marriage from scratch, and we need all the help we can get!

Thank you for letting me know I helped. Our exchange has helped me, too. It's very healing to feel like I've learned some things from my experiences, and that there's something I can offer to others.

Thanks for letting me know your wife is posting. I'll try to find her and offer whatever support I can.


KathCA

I'm glad you got something in return for your kindness Kath. I am still using your words for comfort and strength when my own feelings of pain try to overwhelm me. I told my counselor about your post coming just when I needed it most and broke down crying in the safety of his office. It was theraputic to let it out full strength and not in stifled sobs like I do at home. So you continue to help a stranger in need.

Ma'am I would like to talk further with you about your experience and the way it affects your relationship with your spouse. I have haunted the websites dealing with this terrible thing but it's tough to understand and I feel you have come here for a reason. This particular thread is apparently popular, I guess it's the title, though few actually post. I know how incredibly hard it must be for you to discuss your feelings especially with a stranger and a man to boot. I don't think this thread is the place to do it assuming you are willing.

If you are agreeable I would like to share further but please don't feel obligated or think I will be disappointed if you cannot. That much at least I think I DO understand. If you start a thread in another less habitated part of this site I'll find it and respond. I know just how much I am asking of you and if it's too much please know that you have already done me more good than I have words to express and I don't want you to pay a price of old pain or discomfort on my account. You have already done more than anyone could ask.

I know God blesses you and I have put you in a special part of my own prayer list. I pray that your prayers will be answered in the way you want.

Hi, Campdog--

Of course I'd be happy to continue our discussion. I don't have a problem being on this thread. I'm sure it is the title that makes it popular, that's what caught my attention!

I feel comfortable discussing my experience, and it actually isn't painful for me. What was hard about initially posting was not knowing how you would take it. But actually, I welcome the chance to talk about it. I mean, how many places IRL do I get to share these kinds of things? It's such a big part of me, and yet it's just not socially appropriate to bring it up all the time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Plus, to protect my husband's privacy with our friends and family, I really can't ever discuss how fully our marriage has suffered because of it. Really, who wants to hear that much about our sex life, anyway?

So, if this thread's okay with you, go ahead and ask whatever's on your mind. I will do my best to answer anything I have experience with. Maybe it will help other people, too?

And, thankfully, it doesn't bother me to discuss it with a man, either. A few years ago, maybe. But I'm to the point that men don't automatically make me uncomfortable. That's taken three decades, but it feels good to be at that point. Never knew all the good friends I was missing out on! Besides, no one could read this thread without understanding what a kind person you are, CD. Please know that I do feel comfortable, and am more than happy to continue discussing. Thank you for asking.

And thank you for the prayers. My road's still bumpy enough that I definitely welcome them! Please know that I am also praying for you and your family.

Thank you Kath, your input means a lot to me. I'd like to ask a few questions but since this would be a sort of digression I started a new thread on General Questions. I'm using this thread as a sort of online journal to be printed out and kept for the future, come what may. Also, I think you're right that the title of this thread grabs attention and I really want to filter those lurkers who just read for prurient interest reasons. This issue is very important to me and I know it's emotionally loaded for you as well.

General Questions sees a LOT of traffic and threads that are not super active get pushed back quickly. It will be as close to a two party discussion as practicle but I called it "Sexual abuse issues effecting the Affair" so that others might join in or take help from our words. Sorry it took me so long to answer you back but it's sometimes difficult to come here. There's SO much pain in this place, both mine and others, that I have to recharge my batteries sometimes. I hope you're still with me and you remain in my prayers.

Just a quick note to say that I will be traveling for the next few weeks and won't be posting. I'm NOT dropping out and I'll try to grab an internet connection when I can. Good luck and God's blessings to you all. You will be in my thoughts and in my prayers.

-camp