Just found this forum this morning. I found out a month ago that my six month old son is my wife's lover's child, not mine. I didn't know about the affair which she claims she recently broke off but lasted two years. I won't go into the details of my devastation here since I have begun bleeding on other threads.

I find that knowlege of my son's paternity has made no difference in my love for him. I feared that it might but it hasn't. He is the only innocent in this whole horrible mess. My wife tells me that the baby's father has not yet seen his son but is making increasing demands to be given his 'rights' to be a part of his baby's life. What a repulsive joke! He impregnated my wife knowing she was married. He allowed my name to be put on the birth certificate, let the baby come into my family as my own and according to my wife has not paid a dime in support of his child. But he feels he has rights!

Unfortunately I think a court would feel the same way. He says he wants to avoid court but will seek legal relief if he cannot 'be a part of his son's life'.

I don't know what to do. Should I keep him away from my family and son and fight it out in the courts? Should I let him have as many 'rights' as he feels entitled to? The only thing I want is what is best for the baby. I don't think anyone else's feelings or desires should take precedence, including my own. I realize most of these threads have to do with the woman's perspective. I haven't come across any that deal wth my particular predicament so far. I'd just like to hear about what has worked or not worked for others.

campdog,
So sorry that you have found yourself in this situation ... with that said ... welcome <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
The board is a little slow on weekends, please don't feel discouraged if there are not a lot of posts until Monday ...
Read in you other post that both of you are in in MC ... have you consider IC for yourself? ... and probably for your wife too ...

This is a very important step, not only for yourself but to heal your marriage ...

I think one of the things you need to do is to contact an attorney asap and see what are the legal options you (and your wife) have ...

Some questions:
- do you want to save your marriage?
- has the affair ended?
- how is your wife reacting to all of this?

let's start from here ...

CD, so sorry to hear you are going though all of this. Depending on which state you are in I think as long as your on BC and she was M to you. The courts consider him yours?? Don't know for sure but if I where you I would check w/ child services in your area. How are you and your W doing?? And I'm guessing there have been no DNA test done yet? Its good to hear that you love this child as your own. Its best that you talk to an attorney and your wife and make some aggrements on what you want to do. Please read over all of the materials in the MB on honesty, and POJA. Good luck and we are glad you are here.
Sunny D

Hi Campdog,



Your story reminds me of a poster named "K". You might put a call out to him. Here's a link to his truly inspiring story...

K's Story

I don't think he'll mind my sharing it with you.

Godspeed,
Natalie

You don't say if you've had DNA testing done or not. If not, how do you KNOW you're not the biological father of your son?

Our son knew, for 8 years, that it was possible that his daughter was the OM's. I've known, however, since she was very small, that she was OURS, because she looks so much like our son and has other of my family characteristics. Also, I was very aware of certain facts, and knew. from those facts, that DGD was born 3 weeks early...and conception most likely occurred after son and then-wife reconciled.

Anyway, Son's ex moved to Texas and left the children with him, and he filed for custody. She decided to contest it, and one of the things she claimed was that he should not have physical custody of their daughter because he was "not the biological father". Well, a DNA test showed that our son is 99.99254% her father. Once she realized that we could prove son's paternity, she finally gave up the custody battle, and all the children now live with our son.

Anyway, our son lived with torment for 8 years, thinking that his little girl might not be his. He refused to do the DNA test until it came down to the custody battle because he didn't want to "know for sure" that she wasn't his. I have a medical POA on each of our grandchildren, and considered, several times, having a grandparent DNA test done without his knowledge, and only telling him bout it if the test showed I was her grandmother. I couldn't bring myself to go behind his back, though.

So, if you haven't done a DNA test and there is any possibility that your son is your biological child, go have it done.

As for the OM, let him twist in the wind. Right now, I would bet that he's bluffing. Let him know that if he wants to start any legal proceedings, he'd better come up with plenty of money, as custody battles are not cheap and you will fight him all the way. Check with an attorney to see what your options are.

I would like to suggest something different.

Since as your correctly pointed out, the baby is the truly innocent one in this ordeal, the overall best interests of the child should be paramount and that is why I would recommend that you seek out the services of a child psychologist to find out what is the best course of action to take in order to minimize any damage to him. Keep in mind that the more contact there exists between you and the baby, the harder it will be for him IF you end up separating from his mother.

If your W was not fighting with her own personal demons [her rape 25 years ago and yearning to be sexually with the OM] and the OM was not interested in the child, then it would be an easier matter for you and your W to remian married and raise the little one as your own, but since that is not the case then I'd suggest that you consider the advice I gave you.

Good luck.

TMCM

Campdog,

I would agree with this comment if you still had no knowledge of your W's affair and no knowledge that the OM was the father of the baby, but NOW that you've discovered the truth, YOUR choices to have daily contact with the child DO make you responsible for they will continue to affect the baby and THAT is why, considering the present circumstances, you should also consult with a child psychologist to determine IF it may be best for the child for you to severe all contact with him before the bond between the two of you becomes even more stronger.

Furthermore here's what Dr Harley told a H whose W became pregnant by another man in What to Do When You (or Your Spouse) Becomes Pregnant with a Lover's Child:


This is very close to your situation and I think that you should consider reading Dr Harley's comments in their entirety and ponder very seriously his advice on the matter in order to move forward.

TMCM

Campdog

According to the courts, the child was conceived and born into a marriage, you are considered the father. YOU are the only one who can contest it. Xom doesn't hae a leg to stand on, even if there is a DNA test.

I was the MOw, became pregnant with Xmm child. My H signed the BC and Xmm took me to court to get rights to my daughter, he lost.

Good luck

I actually have two threads going in this forum and it seems that the focus on both is the baby's paternity. This is low down on my list of priorities but I have decided to trust the judgement and intentions of the people who post to my threads.

Firstly there is no doubt as to the baby's paternity or my feelings about him. (See 'I'm not his father' in the Pregnancy threads.)

Crazymum's advice is a ray of hope but I have yet to check how New York courts deal with such issues. My wounds are still bleeding and it's all I can do to get through each day. Assuming that I would be within my legal rights to deny my son's father all contact with him I am not sure if such a decision would be in the child's best interests. I certainly would not raise my son on the basis of a lie and I never thought other than that one day he would know the truth. My problem is when that should be.

I consider the the man who impregnated my wife pond scum since he knew from the time he met her that she was married. He still insists he 'wants to be part of his child's life' while failing to recognize the absurdity of being a 'father' to a child being raised in another family. I have no doubt that if he gets visitation rights he will waste no time in telling my son that he is his 'real' father. But even that can be dealt with and of course if my wife and I split the point is moot.

I am old enough and experienced enough to realize that I'm in no condition right now to make irreversable decisions. My roller coaster goes up and down from minute to minute still. I have read a lot of the threads here and I can see even if there is no hope for my relationship there is hope and strength to be had here. God help me and bless you.

my prayers are with you my friend...take care of you

Campdog

My OC knows who XMm is, he has done irrevertable damage to my daughter. I was nice to Xmm and let him have a relationship with her dispite him not having any legal rights. Big mistake.

My daughter considers my H her dad. Think long and hard about all of it. In all honesty, it will probably be better for you son to NOT have anything to do with the OM. Besides, if this guy is really scum do you want him around your child??

I say your child cause of this, the Om provided the DNA, you provided everything else. You are this childs father. It takes more than DNA to make a dad

Haven't been here for a few days. Basically just going day to day and feeling miserable. Crazymum I'm not sure what a XMm is but if I'm reading you right you are saying that there is a child in your marriage fathered by a spouse's lover who has been damaged by contact with the biological father.

Could you be more specific if it's not too painful? My problem is that in the state where I live if the biological father can prove paternity through DNA testing he WILL be awarded visitation rights by the courts. According to the attorney I consulted if the biological father has the determination to pursue his rights through the courts the outcome is inevitable. The best I could do would be to delay the outcome for a year or two, just in time for my son to understand when the SOB tells him that he is his 'real' father.

It's a horrible mess and the only thing I'm really sure of is that I will do whatever is best for my son, be it consenting to visits without court action or moving far away. The thought of that turd being with my son and bringing him home to HIS family makes me physically ill. The stupid moron believes that he can be a 'father' to a child being raised in another family! But I'll let him do it if I can be sure that the baby won't be hurt by the experience.

At this point I'm not sure of ANYTHING except my love for my wife and baby. As I've said before if we split the point will be moot but since I am trying to save my marriage I would be most grateful to get advice from anyone. On anything.

I don't know the specific laws in your state, and I'm not sure you should deny your child knowing his biological father. But,I don't know him and it may be best to keep him out of your life. So here are my thoughts. If you want to keep him out of your and your childs life, the way to do it is hit him financially. Let him file for rights and visitation. You file to get child support and back payment for every dime you have spent on the child, up to and including pre-natal doctor visits. I would bet when he sees how much it will cost him he may change his mind. Fair is fair. Along with rights come responsibilities.

Campdog

A hero of mine on these boards ( and a grumpy old bugger!) is 'K'. He took his WS OC into his heart and they now have a M to be envied by most.

Search for K's posts and maybe send out a call for his advice.

You CAN get over this. And your attitude to this innocent child is utterly to your credit and adds in a some small way to the worthiness of all humanity IMO.

Camp

I was once the cheating spouse (so was H but that is a different story). I became pregant with Xmm (my lover was also married) baby. H was there at the birth and signed his name on the birth certificate. When my daughter was 4 months old we had to go to court. Xmm wanted rights. He was shot down. He had a lawyer, I didn't. H did some research on the matter. There was a case that went to the supreme court-- over all a man had a DNA test proving to the the childs father, but considering the child was conceived and born into a marriage, the child is consiered the husbands. My X-lover (XMM) lost. Long stort short, I ended up letting the Xmm have contact with my daughter, affair started again and another child was also born. My H took in both the children I had from that affair.

When it all came down to it, Xmm now has nothing to do with the kids because I refuse to continue the affair.

I'm in Michigan, right now the law is still the same. I'm still reading stories in the paper of men fighting to get rights to the child born of the affair. So, if your wifes X-lover is going to continue to fight, have your lawyer look up the old cases. I've found most of the time the courts will do what they can to protect the family unit.

I highly doubt that your W Xlover is doing this to get the child, more likely to get your wife.

Campdog,

Welcome to MarriageBuilders---I wish it were under better circumstances. You've gotten what appears to be reasonably sound legal advice---in many states, an OM can petition the courts to have paternity testing done, and then be awarded visitation rights. With those rights come responsibilities with regard to financial obligations. I assume that he is not married, and not supporting any other children? If he has a decent job, his "rights" will probably entitle him to pay around 18% of his gross paycheck to child support. I would encourage you to get a very good lawyer lined up, and be ready for this scenario. Get your lawyer's advice, but it will probably be to do nothing---have no contact with him whatsoever. Have him work through the courts if he wants these rights. It's likely to discourage him.

With regards to your marriage---the most important thing that you and your wife can be doing right now is practicing "complete honesty" and "the policy of Joint Agreement". You two need to be transparent with one another as to what's going on, how you feel---and then you need the skills to make decisions together that benefit the marriage. If you understand that and are working on it already---great!! If not, please get counseling through the Harley's here (888-639-1639 for appointments)

It is very likely that the OM is just making a play to attempt to continue the affair. Your wife should have no contact at all with him---if contact is necessary, it should be through you (if you can handle it). My wife's xOM made a similar threat (although before the baby was born), but the reality of the situation was that he went away and we haven't heard from him since (this is 7 years ago). The more time where "nothing" happens from a legal standpoint, the better the odds are that a court would NOT give the OM rights---although again, that is state-specific.

Good luck. Remember, the more your wife and you learn how to use the POJA to make decisions together, the more that you will rebuild your love for one another. It teaches protection and care for the other person.

Yet again I feel God's hand on my shoulder guiding me to this site when I am so lost. I have read bOb's posts in other places and I am flattered that he has reached out to me. Crazymum you aint crazy, I can see you're an angel for trying to help me. And K, if you are one of bOb's heroes then you must really be something. I'm going to search out your threads.

I have been thinking about this issue all morning even putting my thoughts on paper. My wife has agreed to discuss the situation tonight, the first time she has agreed to discuss any part of her affair in depth. Previously she told me she didn't know what she wanted, she didn't know what was best for the baby and she admitted to not really thinking about the whole thing at all. I'll see what develops tonight.

While doing some diligent searching I found a birthday card to my wife on her last birthday from her lover. She had given birth 19 days previously and it was hand delivered, not addressed. It turns out that he is delusional as well as morally bankrupt. The card was titled "With Love To My Wife"! The card itself said in part "always, no question - my wonderful beautiful wife" and "I'm a very lucky man to have you for my wife". He had hand written in part "It's exactly how I feel". Did I mention she claims that he knew she was married from the start?

This is very scary stuff. How will this poor fool react when he realizes the truth and must face his delusions? How can I trust this guy with my son? What IS the Truth? Can she still be lying and leading a double life? Is she that good an actress? Am I that big a fool? What promises did she make to this jerk that she is concealing?

Whatever the truth is I have a feeling that her lover is going to get ugly about this and that it will happen sooner rather than later. How do I protect my son and at the same time do what is best for him? My heart aches for that beautiful baby I was just holding in my arms. [censored], crying again. Thought I had that one beat. At least I only do it in private nowadays. Where do you guys find the strength?

Campdog,

Natalie (in this thread) posted a link to my story---it's been a while...

Has your wife been in "no contact", and for how long? It is possible that the affair isn't over, and that wouldn't help your situation much. One thing I need to stress to you is the importance of you getting honesty from your wife. The problem is that you can't beat it out of her, and you can't scream and throttle her when you get honesty that you don't like. You are really going to have to put lid on Lovebusters (especially Angry Outbursts, Disrespectful Judgements, and Selfish Demands) as you talk with her---you need to encourage her honesty by being capable of handling it gently. Gather any information she's willing to share, and openly discuss how the two of you can plan to deal with this together. Encourage her to make suggestion. You don't have to come to a decision immediately, especially if you disagree.

As far as worrying about how this guy will react---don't. Your best bet would be for him to get enraged and confront you (physically). Let him take a shot or two---that'd help you with a restraining order, and it wouldn't look very good in court. You can't control his actions---only yours.

CD, I'm nobody, just one of many MB success stories. If the wise'uns like K can kick ME into doing it, you stand every chance my friend.

Scroll up to K's tale link and study with a long drink.

And tell me honestly the point when you say to yourself "this marriage didn't make it SURELY ?".

bOb, no one who is an inspiration to others is a 'nobody'. I actually did read K's story after I posted last. Someone posted a link to it above which I missed in my initial distress. It's an inspiration to me to see that he's a success story and I can understand completely his motivation and actions. I love my new son to death, my heart doesn't care whose sperm created him. What I am praying for continually is for strength in the face of so many unresolved issues and doubts. That is something no one can explain to you, you have to find it within.

K, you ask if there has been no contact, and for how long. If my wife is telling the truth there has been no physical contact and only one phone conversation since the beginning of May. She says he calls her cell phone and leaves messages but that she doesn't answer. When I initially asked her why she answered the phone she told me that it was because she knew he wanted to discuss the baby. She later admitted that it was because she missed him and wanted to talk to him.

How can I know if she's telling me the truth about no contact? After all this is the father of her child and she has been lying to me and deceiving me for years. She said it was 'easy'. As I said above how do I know I am not still being taken for a fool? I see positive signs that plan A is working but I am plagued by constant doubt. For every ray of hope there is a caveat.

Today's challenge is to decide on a course of action concerning the baby and his father. I lean towards granting him some visitation on my own even though the thought is repugnant. Once a month is my thinking. As I said above even that much scares me since he thinks of my spouse as his 'wife' and thinks she had the baby as a gift to him! Also, how do I make ANY arrangements with this fool since my wife won't give me his phone number? She says she's afraid of what I might do as if she has completely missed my behavior since the first minute she told me about the affair. I am a retired law enforcement officer and I have had 25 years of practice in controlloing my anger and actions. I have managed to remain unprovoked by experts in provocation yet my wife has 'concerns' about what I might do. Is she afraid that I might find out that they are still involved? God God God my brain hurts. thanks for listening.

CampDog,

Don't let the OM into your family's life -- ever.

I had the same situation many years ago. We still don't know who the biodad is. That daughter, who I love very much, is now 35 years old! She knows about it, but non of us knows who the OM was. Her mother and I divorced in 1981.

If your name, as the husband, was put down as the father on the birth certificate, then you are the child's father in the eyes of the law.

Got to go. More later, if desired.

Campdog:


Sound's like she's telling something near the truth. Withdrawal from an affair is a hard process---it's not unlike trying to kick a heroin habit (in fact the brain biochemistry around affairs or "new love" is similar to narcotic highs). If you think that Plan A is having a positive effect then you're doing a great job. I was convinced that my Plan A was horrible---until after Plan B was over and my wife told me how important it was to her that I had done such a great job in Plan A.

Tell me---what benefits do you see in allowing contact? How do you think you're going to limit it to once a month? I would suggest that (if your wife can agree) you "allow" nothing. Allow him to pursue this in court. Fight him (legally) every way. If he is successful, hit him where it hurts financially. If he's willing to do this and take that kind of punishment---then he's probably going to be a decent person to be involved in your son's life. But set that bar high---usually, OM's won't pursue it.

If you've been involved in law enforcement for 25 years, I'm sure you must have a 'friend' or two who could make this problem go away. But I didn't say nothin'... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Rag, your comments are not only desired they are welcome and gratefully accepted. K, it sounds as if I'm not the only one who ever contemplated renting a boat.... But seriously, always do your own dirty work. Once you get someone to commit a crime for you they own you forever. Anyway even though I have no words to describe the contempt and detestation I feel for my wife's lover I know that if it hadn't been him it would have been someone else. I can't place the blame for my tragedy solely on him.

You ask what the benefits of contact between my son and his father would be. For me personally there are none. As I said I find the idea repugnant. From a pragmatic point of view there are some pros to the idea. I start with the premise that he will NOT go away. Reaching a private agreement means that I can avoid court and the expense of a lawyer. Any agreement reached would be informal and not have the weight of law. Avoiding court means avoiding legally establishing my wife's lover as the baby's biological father. A private visitation agreement would have to take into account the feelings of all the people involved, including my wife's. My son could only benefit from a cordial, rather than hostile, environment regarding his father. There is no chance that I would conceal the truth of his paternity from my son even if he never saw his father. I don't believe in lying to my children.

The downside is that it may not be possible to find a solution that satisfies all parties involved. Also any agreement reached would have to be between myself and my wife's lover. I do NOT want her seeing or speaking to him even about this. So far she has resisted even the notion of giving me his phone number.

It's 6 AM here and I have been up for hours wrestling with my demons as my wife sleeps blissfully away. Reading the above I am struck how rationally I can consider an issue when it involves the people I love and yet have no clue as to how to mitigate my own torment. Funny how the brain works.

I can see where you're coming from in wanting to handle the situation without legal wrangling, but (though I am not a lawyer) it seems like it wouldn't do anything to mitigate his ability to seek legal remedy later -- in fact, if you allow him to develop a relationship etc. you could potentially strengthen his legal standing. The advice K gave you seems very solid. Make him pursue everything in the courts and live with the financial repercussions. Do nothing to weaken your current legal standing as the father. If everything comes "against" you legally later, it will still likely be before this child would remember anything different and no harm would be done.

I applaud your poise and strength of character in this painful situation. I would encourage you before anything else to get serious about addressing your marriage by entering joint counseling with the Harleys using the phone number posted above. I can unequivocally state that their counseling saved my marriage and family. Getting through the wreckage of an affair can be done, but your WW and you need some immediate ground rules in place, like Radical Honesty (wherein there is no ROOM to question her honesty) and Policy of Joint Agreement (so that both of you embark on this plan of action in total honest unity).

Campdog,

I understand your issues with handling this privately. It might even be a good idea, given the premise that the other party is honorable and has good intentions. But that doesn't describe the OM's recent track record, does it?

Talk with your lawyer. I think you'll probably get similar advice from him---the OM should jump through the appropriate legal hoops, and you shouldn't aid him one iota with regards to this. You don't have to be mean or nasty---but make sure he goes thrugh the legal system.

Hell no it doesn't describe his track record! He calls the married woman he impregnated his 'wife' and believes she had the baby as a 'gift' to him.

I had told my wife that I would be willing to agree to a monthly or even bi weekly visit but I've changed my mind. It occurs to me that I was doing it againt my better instincts and ignoring my instincts is what got me to the place I'm in now. Let the courts decide the issue without me providing any aid to the turd who helped my wife burn my world down around my ears. If this decision drives her back into his arms, so be it. At least I'll know where I stand.

Assuming she sticks around and that he has the sand to go the distance what are your thoughts on letting him prove legally that he is my son's biological father?

No more doubts, they are still in contact. Went away for the weekend out of state with the kids. Stayed at a hotel, very nice we had some real nice times together. It was even romantic. This morning we were walking down the hall together and I saw a funny look on her face. I asked about it and she said her stomach felt funny, probably something she ate. Later I was alone in the hotel room and she called from her aunt's room to ask me to bring her her cell phone. It seemed odd since she could have made the call she said she wanted to make at any time. Then it hit me. It was Father's Day! I checked and sure enough there was a long tearful message from her lover swearing undying love and saying how much he missed her and 'his' son. In one part he thanked her for her message and for thinking of him.

So they are still having a relationship. Of course, she swears she hasn't seen him or had sex with him but then she swore she wasn't speaking to him either. I may have made a mistake but I told her I listened to her messages and that she had one from him. I had considered not saying anything but decided that I had to be honest. She hit the roof and told me that I had ruined the weekend. She said that I had no right to snoop in her personal business! She tried to make it seem that I was ruining the rapport we had been building with my prying. Totally missed the idea that it was the lies that were damaging our efforts to rebuild our marriage, not my uncovering them. She did not promise to stop contact with him and would not promise to stop lying about it which is honesty of a sort I suppose but hardly what I wanted to hear.

I am feeling right now that this may be the last straw. How can I believe anything when I keep uncovering lies? She was willing to have sex with me that one time to deceive me into thinking the baby was mine so how hard is it to force semblances of affection to keep me dancing to her tune? I told her that she couldn't keep up her relationship with him and keep me too and she told me I had to do what was best for myself and that maybe she should just go away to sort out her feelings.

Did I make a mistake in letting her know I knew about her deception? I am trying so hard to follow plan A but it is getting harder all the time. So far I have told no one about the affair but I read some posts on exposure and I wonder if threatening to expose the affair to her family (she could care less about mine) would force an end to the affair. Or would it drive her even further away if I 'pressure' her? Is it time for plan B? Even at this point I don't want to lose my marriage but I am forced to consider that I may be breaking my heart on a lost cause. I'm not dealing with my beloved wife, I'm living with some wierd, twisted pod people version of her. I know now what you mean by being kidnapped by aliens. I'd really like to hear from you guys. You have given me hope in the past and that's what I'm a little short of right now.

CD

You have to realise - no INTERNALISE this fact: Infidels are not capable of telling the truth if a lie appears slighty easier to them.

Your expectations are too high for your WW at this time. Your 'pod people' analogy is a good one. PLEASE remember that you are dealing witha temorarily insane person. Do not expect logic or truth. DO not depend on anything she says unverified.

There is strength in knowing this. You can disallow yourself from being hurt by such lies anymore. Its your WWs responsibility to become trustworthy to you once more, not yours to believe what she throws you.

Is OM attached ? I think that exposing to OMs W if there is one, or OMs parents may be the best first exposure.

Some advocate 'scorched earth' exposure ( everyone) but I found that most people just recieve the news as good gossip and could give a [censored] about the reporter's travails.

Find a significant other in OMs life and expose to them first. Use a PI if necessary.

you must detatch a bit CD. Treat plan A like a work project.

All blessings.

campdog,

This is no real surprise. I can lecture you about how privacy in marriage is a bad thing---but a definite lovebuster is for you to turn around and lecture your spouse about the same.

Getting as much information as you can about the affair isn't a bad thing at all. Remember that you are not to 'react' to the information, but rather to ACT accordingly to a plan. If you're not in counseling yet, I highly recommend it. Steve Harley was a godsend to me when I was dealing with this---and you can make appointments at 888-639-1639.

It sounds as though you are making some progress with your wife (I'm sure it doesn't feel like that much of the time). You need to be honest, transparent, and try to use the POJA to decide these issues of contact and visitation. Exposure is a good thing, even though it is hard (and the fallout can have some bad consequences for the marriage, in the short term). It sounds like you have more than this one child---how do you think your wife would react to asking her to leave until she comes to a decision regarding the marriage (Plan B)? It's hard for me to tell where you're at---and that's another reason you ought to be doing counseling with a pro.

This two-faced monster you're dealing with isn't your wife. The biochemistry of an affair helps to make this monster. I hope you can sit back and observe some of her behaviors with detachment---some of them are bound to be pretty funny in their incongruity. Just don't remind yourself that "but wait, this is MY life" too often---you'll get depressed.

One other thing...

Plan B will undoubtedly force her back into his arms. That may not be a bad thing---a lot of 1-on-1 time is good for injecting reality into a fantasy.

Thanks guys I hope it's not putting too much on you to tell you that right now you two are all the support group I have. I told one person in my life about the affair because I trust their judgement, heart, intelligence and actions. Unfortunately in the last two conversations we had their own anger towards my WS was apparent and I think it's best to let them contemplate the situation for a while before we can get into any serious discussions. God knows I have enough of my own anger to go around.

bOb, once again you come through in a pinch. Your advice in the beginning of your post is sound and reading your words let me breathe deeply again for the first time in 24 hours. I can see where I might find strength in detaching myself from expectations of honesty and disclosure, for now.
The other man is not attached if my wife is to be believed. She says that for the length of their affair she came to know his family as his 'girlfriend' and that they only told his family the truth when the baby was born and the family was pressuring them to marry. She says that her Partner in Adultery's (nice term, way better than lover) mother refused to have anything to do with her or the baby until she came clean to me. That was six months prior to my finding the birth control pills but she insists that it was the reason she disclosed the affair to me.
As far as scorched earth goes I think that right now it would do more harm than good. Her family is close knit and I am a darling in their eyes. She says one of her biggest dreads is about when they find out what she did. She says she is ashamed of herself and I think that to reveal her to her family at this time would just add more hurt to her already overflowing plate (remember the recently uncovered memories of her childhood rapes). As far as the PI goes my best friend is a PI and I was the lead investigator for a PI for the last two years. Funny, right? I have the number for the phone he left the message from but he called from his mom's house. It's still doable as a result to find him but I am not sure it would be worth the effort.

K, it's no surprise to me either but reading it about it and living it are two very different things. I have been going to marriage counseling for two years, mostly by myself. An unexpected result was that I was able to deal with my own issues of childhood abuse (physical and emotional, not sexual) and I am anger and alcohol free for the first time in my life. I have completly remade myself into the kind of man she can love and our counselor says that this is the main reason she chose to stay in the relationship rather than leave. I have reservations about this analysis but I am watching and waiting. Neither myself or our counselor was able to convince my wife to attend sessions on a regular basis for reasons that have only recently become clear. And when she DID come, of course, she lied to us both. She asked to go see our counselor by herslf on the day before d-day (May 11) and that clinched for me what I had already figured out when I found her birth control pills the week before.
Since d-day she has attended regularly but our most recent sessions (3 so far) have had mostly to do with helping her to deal with the rapes she had repressed for so long, rather than issues regarding the affair.

I have come to the realization that MC is useless at this point. My intention when we go for counseling tommorrow is to bow out of the sessions and let her have some IC without my presence. I have the utmost confidence in our counselor and trust him to do for her what he has done for me if she allows it. I know what I have to do to save our marriage and my problem is with having the strength to carry on, not my goal. I have you guys for support here and I want to thank you for that from the bottom of my heart. I can't imagine where I would be had I not found MB and you two. I know my sister will provide RL support as well once she works past the anger thing.

In my heart of hearts I see some movement towards reconcilliation and the kind of marriage I believe we both want. My idea at the present time is to carry on with plan A and see where we are around Holiday time. It scares me when I think of how hard that is to do at times such as these. I felt yesterday like I was going to get home from our trip and pack a bag and leave. Today I feel hope but I am exhausted from riding this roller coaster. My wife says the same thing and I worry that SHE will be the one to lose strength and hope. We have a nine year old son and I know that I haven't been giving him the attention he needs while I struggle to make it through each day. Thank God she is at work. Right now I just feel like shaking her until she wakes the f**k up. Don't abandon me guys, walk me through this. Thanks.

Campdog, I just wanted to tell you that I understand the feelings you are experiencing and I hope that things work out for you. I understand the emotional turmoil you are in, as I also am experiencing the same turmoil. Hang in there.

Right now I just feel like shaking her until she wakes the f**k up. Don't abandon me guys, walk me through this. Thanks.

OH yeah...I know that.

Here's another pinch of advice - you can't make her do ANYTHING.

You can only affect yourself and your kids. And that usually enough.

Study campdog. It wont be in your nature, heck it wasn't in mine either. But knowledge is strength.

Your pain is unique but your situation is boringly, sadly common and predictable.

Thats why tools like MB used properly can help, like drugs against a disease.

Your WW doesn't mean [censored] right now. She's gone, on the planet Tharg.

You and your kids are what important.

Get your head and heart straight and lock up any vengeful , angry or needful thoughts when you're around your WW.

Uninstinctive but it works.

All blessings.

No chance that I will shake anything bOb. The thing that separates us from the animals is our ability to overcome our impulses. We might want to kill the guy who cuts us off in a car and gives us the finger but how many actually do?

I have decided to let my wife do whatever she wants concerning the baby and visitation with his father with no further input from me. I have told her that I wanted the creep to go through the courts and our MC has advised the same thing. The way he put it the paternity issue is a huge hole in our efforts to rebuild our marriage and a lawyer would be a plug. He said we had enough to deal with as it is. Be that as it may the POJA is useless beacause A. she won't agree to or even read it and B. she will do whatever she feels like anyway and simply lie about it. I have a thread going in General Questions about this if you want more depth. I guess K is busy saving other souls more lost than I, good for him. 6,000 plus posts, yikes.

Christ! How long does this downward spiral go on? Where do you people find the strength to hope, and even succeed?

Actually campdog---I'm pretty much retired from the boards now, so I spend very little time here. 7 years and 6000+ posts does wear you out a bit... If it makes you feel better, when I do show up here the first thing I do is to look for your posts.

I would suggest that you spend the money to have a session or two with Steve Harley---so he can correct you instead of me... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


Not a good decision. Why??? It doesn't build love, or marriage skills. It will erode your love for your wife. You need to be honest with her. Attempt to get her into conversations where you use good negotiation skills and the POJA to make decisions. It's expected that she will resist, and probably not stick to joint decisions right now. But your willingness to negotiate, to use honesty, and to NOT LOVEBUST will set the groundwork for recovery later.

If she's still doing a lot of lying, I'd encourage you to continue to "spy" on her and bring up her lies in a non-confrontational way (just that you know "X, Y, and Z", and then you can state how you feel about it, but not to harp, nag, or get angry). The more you can use honesty as a tool, not as a weapon---the more you will encourage her to be honest. Again, this will help to build the foundation for recovery.

Campdog first I would like to say I think you are one hell of a man. The fact that you know this child is not yours yet you talk about him as if he is your world says volume’s about your character. I don’t know ya but already love ya. I may be way off key here but I thought I would leave a woman’s point of view on you sitch. I feel your wife is an alien. I mean to have a H like you and yet still be torn to the other lover. I am confused as to why she hasn’t seen the light in him. However I do feel that she is treating you this way because you are allowing it. She has the best of both worlds right now. You claiming all the love in the world (hence feels your not going anywhere) and him doing the same. You said this A lasted two years and his family thinks she’s his girlfriend. OK that alone would be a red flag to me. This was more then an A. She has a full blown out relationship and now family with this guy. I mean how much time did she have away from you to carry on this type of affair? I don’t understand however if this guy and her are sooooo close (hence his wife statements) then why is she still holding on to you? I would think she would just leave. I do feel that you should meet this guy. I think you should walk right up and knock on his door. I say this because you have no idea what she’s been telling him about you. Example when I learned of my H’s OW I drove 5 hours to meet with her. Made her sit face to face with me and talk. We both learned a lot. She learned he completely lied to her about me. That I wasn’t this witch who bit the heads off of children. She actually felt awful to see that she had been hurting someone who was generally a nice person. She realized that day that my H was the looser and she had been used. Before he had been a God. She even told me that it was easy to do what she was doing when she didn’t know me and thought I was this living demon. Maybe guy feels the same way. It’s also easier to deal with a lot of things when you have a face to the problem. I learned how she was a victim to his lies and deception. But now I know she sees him in a different light. I do feel that you should also do plan B. Hard I know but if you read Dr. Harley’s book "Surviving an Affair” I think that it will be the same with your wife. Make them see reality. If she loves you then she’ll come back with a different and better attitude. If she stays with him then at least you know you need to move on. Life’s to short to cater to people who just don’t care. I think she will realize that you are one hell of a man to take on her problem with the love that you are. Maybe she’ll see guy’s true colors when it’s directly in her face. Right now he’s the fantasy. Reality is harsh. I just think you should push her into a decision one way or another. She needs to figure out if her M is worth working on. Sorry so long. Also you’ll know if she’s cut contact with guy when she changes that cell phone number. She holds onto it to hold onto him getting in touch with her. What woman hasn’t kept the cellphone/pager for the just in cases’s?

K, it does make me feel better to read of your concern for me, better than I can express in words. I'm sorry if I come across as so needy but of course, I am. Finding out that she is still carrying on the affair has affected me as if it were d-day all over again. I haven't been able to eat or sleep much since last Sunday. I just haven't got the strength to do much else than suffer.
I hate the fact that I have to pull out of such an important issue in my son's life but what real choice is there? As I said above she will do whatever she feels like anyway and lie about it to me. A real Love Buster for sure but it is what it is.
I'd love to consult with Dr. Harley but I am not employed. I am a stay at home dad taking care of the baby and the other two kids. With only one income and my pension I simply can't afford the added expense. I have a marriage counselor who I trust implicitly and who helped me turn my own life around over the last two years. He has said he thinks we need intensive therapy and would like to counsel us both 3 times a week but the insurance won't cover that. It once again comes down to economics. Doesn't everything?
She is of course still lying and is unaware of how transparent her lies are. The latest was just last night when she insisted that she only saw her partner in adultery after work, that she never saw him when she was claiming to work or on days off when she said she had to work. She doesn't realize that since I know she has brought the baby to him on multiple occassions and NEVER took the baby to work then she has to be lying about that as well. This is a lie that she didn't even HAVE to tell me and yet did for whatever reasons seem sufficient to her.
I don't consider what I do with my wife 'spying'. I have explicit knowlege that she is still lying to me and deceiving me and I feel entitled to protect myself from these things to the best of my ability. I am conflicted on whether or not to reveal my knowlege of these lies to my wife. I really don't see much advantage to it.

Crazed, thank you for your post and your compliment. I really don't feel like much more than a pathetic fool who is letting himself be trashed by the person he loves most in the world. I can't really explain how it is that I still love her but I do. I spend an incredible amount of time soul searching and I am not the type to delude myself. It's not wishful thinking or fear or anything else. After all is said and done, so far, the bottom line is that she still holds my heart in her hands. I really, really appreciate your taking the time to give me your perspective and I thank you again for that.

To answer your question my wife is an executive for a major retail company and her job involves traveling from store to store to ensure that they are following company guidlines. No one in her company checks on her whereabouts, only on her performance. She has all the time to herself that she needs.
If she is telling the truth my wife and her Partner in Adultery presented her to his family as his girlfriend right up until she gave birth in November. She says they revealed the truth when the family began pressuring them to marry. Who knows what the truth is? The absurdities and inconsistensies in my wife's affair are things that I spend a lot of time weeping over. A lot of my torment and misery stem from questions I ask God beginning with How and Why. This is virgin territory for me and I am just plodding through as best I can. MB has been a Godsend in this respect but I am nearly used up.
Plan B is something I reserved for around Holiday time. I wanted to see where we were at then. I fear that my strength and determination will not last that long and I am the kind of man who will not return if I leave the relationship. I have made that mistake before in my life and I won't repeat it now. I want to rescue my wife and my marriage more than anything else in the world despite the damage I am receiving. Even now to contemplate losing my beloved and my new son is almost more than I can bear. But I am no teenager several times over and I know that if it comes to my world or my survival I will choose survival. I have cut people out of my heart before and I'm prepared to do it now and live on. I haven't reached bottom yet but I see it rushing towards me. I feel that when I finally hit it the failure will be from my own lack of guts and determination and thus will ultimately be mine. I will hang on for as long as I can. What else can I do?

Campdog,

It takes a lot of intestinal fortitude to do a long Plan A---and long Plan A's are only effective if there is a perceived defect in the marriage (on the BS's side) that you feel can be successfully addressed while this horror is ongoing. If your D-day was a month or so ago, I doubt that you will last to December. You should probably be planning more along the lines of August to September for Plan B. You have good intuition---you don't want to Plan A until your love for your wife is completely dead---at this point, you'll transition to Plan D. Instead, you want to negotiate an end to the affair (Plan A), and if unsuccessful in a reasonable period of time, you should transition to Plan B while you still have considerable feelings with regards to saving the marriage.

The bottom line is that Plan B will protect you from the daily grind of dealing with an active affair. Affairs don't last long (in general), and you need to do what you can to outlast it. 2 months of Plan A followed by 18 months of Plan B is better than 6 months of Plan A followed by divorce.

So---what do you need to do with regards to Plan A? I would suggest that you plan on exposing the affair to her family, your family, and if this is with a coworker---to her boss. Affairs thrive in secrecy, and this will help to squash the fantasy. I would recommend that you "POJA" this exposure with her as well---even though she won't agree, you will have the opportunity to explain why it's important to you that this affair not be kept secret (because it hurts your marriage), and that you want to save your marriage.

I'd also suggest that you prepare for Plan B. If you like your counselor, have them help with setting up the Plan B letter (lots of examples here). As a stay-at-home Dad, it might be ideal to ask your wife to move out first. She will probably refuse, but if she leaves---great. If not, then you should leave---maybe try to negotiate to take the kids (or at least the older ones). When I went to Plan B, I left my two children. It wasn't easy (and legally, you can get caught up in "abandonment" issues), but it ended up to be very effective in putting pressure on the fantasy of the affair.

Stayed away from these pages for a while. All the advice about leaving my wife scared the hell out of me and has taken some time to digest. My confidant, who is the only person I have confided in, has said the same thing. They think I am grasping at straws. I reread the Plan A/B stuff and realized that Plan B is not about ending my marriage but about saving it. I am planning to go to Plan B and am only undecided about when to do it.

In my own situation my wife has already stated that she would NOT leave if we separated. It would make more sense for her to do so since I am the primary care giver for the children while she is the financial provider. If she were to leave we could still keep our home and family together while she had her fun. She could even move in with the OM since she claims he is single. If I leave I would need my pension to live on and would only be able to contribute a part of it to the household. That would mean that we would lose our apartment since she cannot pay even half the rent and other expenses on her own.

I am also tormented by the fact that I cannot trust her word. Considering that she has lied about contact with her partner in adultery since d-day how can I rely on anything she tells me now, including protestations of renewed love and fresh commitment? I tend to believe that there has been no physical contact but it's not impossible that there has been nor is it impossible that there will be. Since learning of this latest deception it is d-day all over again. The crying jags and bad dreams have returned with a vengence. Physical contact or no my emotional reaction is the same. The affair continues.

It doesn't say so anywhere but it's obvious to me that Plan A must be sincere to have any effect. Just going through the motions is dishonest and and ultimately doomed to failure. I have reread K's story and I wonder how he found the strength and determination to follow through when faced with a similar situation. Mine is different only in that his wife was honest about the ongoing affair while mine lied to me. She says once again that she has broken off all contact but can offer no reassurances that this time it is true nor can I think of anything that would convince me that she is being honest. It is incredibly difficult to show honest love and support to my wife when there is always the thought in the back of my mind that she is deceiving me. I am desperate for some sign that I can trust that we are repairing our relationship and not just continuing on along the same path to disaster.

I see that a lot of people have viewed this thread and since few have posted I guess it's more for prurient interest than anything else. It makes me appreciate all the more you guys who have reached out to me. Can anyone suggest positive signs in their own situations that led them to believe that plan A was succeeding? I am terrified that I may be missing something significant.

I really don't know what to tell you and that may be why more people have not responded. In my case also told me that the A. was over. When I found cell found records that proved otherwise I told him I wanted a d. Only after that, did the truth come out that the A. had gone on much longer than I had thought. I know the pain of a 2nd dday because it makes you truly not know what is real and what is not real. Just take your time and think about what you need to do. Noone says you need to do Plan A for this long and Plan B for this long... You need to do what you feel is right for your marriage. A lot of people have told me to Plan B my H as he is still in contact w/ OW, although he also says the A. is over. In my case we can not d. right now, and I am pregnant, so I feel that I am doing what I need to do to get through this pregnancy in the best possible emotional state. My H is helping me w/ things around the house and for the baby. I can tell he is still confused and needs to work things out on his own. We don't discuss reconcilliation.

I am trying to tell you that you need to try to handle things in the way you think is best. I don't know how to tell you if Plan A is working. You will have to see and judge that by your wife's actions.

I wish you luck as it is obvious how much you want your marriage to work.

Thanks for your post Wife30, I appreciate the hand you are holding out to me. I know what it's like expecting a new baby and I can only imagine what you are going through. I'm adding you to my prayer list and telling you what I tell myself. Find the strength to do what you need to do and realize you have the strength to go on no matter what happens.

I just wanted to write down a dirty trick I played on my WS and how it has even made me smile a bit. Smiles have been a little short in my life recently.

Wife went to Boston alone for a graduation ceremony/party for a close friend and her husband. I believe the occassion is for real since I have discussed it with her friend. My wife told me she was looking forward to going away and having a chance to get away from 'her' problems. Before she left the wife asked me if I was afraid she was actually going to spend time with her partner in adultery. Since she asked I told her no, just that I thought it was a bad time to be going away alone but that I understood her emotions. Besides, I was thinking, what was preventing her boyfriend from going to Boston as well or her from spending hours on the phone with him and why was she asking me? I told her to have a good time and not worry about me. She left 4:30 AM on Friday promising to return on Saturday.

Friday night I spoke to her and she said that she missed me and the kids but she was staying Saturday as well for a fashion show. I felt that she was taking the weekend for herself and cutting the family out of the picture and told her that but she promised to return Sunday and have a family day. I told her to have fun and that we all missed her.

Saturday my nine year old son asked me to go somewhere and I told him we couldn't, that his Mom had the car. He asked if we could go when his Mom got back and got very upset when I told him she wasn't coming back until Sunday. Seems she had told him she was returning on Saturday as well. I asked him what was bothering him and he said "what's next? Stay away until August 30?". Got me a little pissed off at the wifey.

But sometimes life is too perfect <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />. The phone rings not ten minutes later and guess who's on the other end? The wheels start turning. She says she just wanted to check in and I ask her if she's having fun, ask her how her day is going and about the weather. Light and upbeat and she sounds happy. She asks me how I'm doing. I say fine but I'm trying to make dinner and the baby is giving me trouble about being left alone, hard to cook and tend to an active 7 month old at the same time. (opening torpedo. Hit? Miss? Hard to tell) I put him on the phone and she coos at him for a while. I tell her about his delighted look and how he was looking around for her. (second torpedo. Baby couldn't have been less interested) Then she asked how our older son was doing. I said he was disappointed about her not coming home and seemed upset but wouldn't tell me what was bothering him. She said to put him on the phone and I asked her not to be hurt if he sounded angry. (third torpedo, definite hit, a little behind amidships) First thing out of his mouth was "why aren't you coming home?". (thank you son) Didn't hear the conversation but made sure she could hear me playing with the baby in the background. Got back on the phone and she said she was tired and going to take a nap. Did my wife have a small insight that *gasp!* you couldn't 'get away' from your problems, that you took them with you? Hmmm...

Finished up with telling her not to nap, to get out and enjoy a scenic and historic part of the country. Said if I were there that's what I would do. We both laughed and she said I sounded 'better', but she sounded thoughtful. (never picked us up on the sonar Captain. We got away clean) Am I a bad plan A-er? I don't feel bad, I feel smug as hell <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I know that often times my H will make comments about "his" problems. That annoys the hell out of me. The other night he was upset. When I asked him what he was upset about he said "Can't I just be upset about the way I messed up my life?" I reminded him it wasn't just his life he messed up, and I went to bed. I just get annoyed w/ how very selfish he seems to be at times.

I can't really offer you Plan A advice because I'm not too good at it. I think at times what I am doing is Plan A, but I refuse to let H run over me either.

Wife30, (please forgive me ma'am for addressing you in such a formal way but W30 sounds like an oil product and Wife just doesn't feel appropriate) I know the feeling. Let me share something that just happened that helped me.

When I found the message on Father's Day that confirmed my suspicions about continued contact between my wife and her partner in adultery I promised her not to check her phone again. I was lying when I said it and I knew it. I was about to check her phone this morning about 4 AM and she woke up and caught me. Her response was fury and a declaration that I was going to wreck our marriage. Seems like a nutty way to look at things, right? When I left the bedroom I was angry at her for being angry at me. Didn't she see that I had a perfect right to the truth?

But as I was sitting in the living room I began to think about her reaction. Why was she angry? The answer is that I had broken MY word to HER. Maybe the biggest Love Buster of all, dishonesty. In seeking to protect myself from being hurt by lies I had become the very thing I was angry at her for being. For whatever reasons she has a need to keep a private, safe place for herself and I had violated that place. By focusing on my own negative emotions I had given her a big push away from me.

It really doesn't change my perspective when I think about 'what if I HADN'T gotten caught?'. The reality is still that I was being dishonest, secretive and deceitful and I would have continued in that behaviour. Would I have felt better if I HAD found a message from him? No. Would I have felt better if I HADN'T found a message? No. From that I draw the conclusion that I was focusing on the wrong need, my need to know versus my need to save my marriage.

I'm writing this because I am thinking about what you said about trying to handle things in the way I see best. I think I was swayed by what others said in this thread and others about scrutinizing my partner rather than examining my own soul. Sure I have a right to the truth but I can't FORCE my wife into giving me that. Doing what I was doing did not make me feel better, just the opposite, and I realize that now I was acting contrary to my basic character. I failed to realize that while sharing similarities every one of our situations is unique and once again I ignored my instincts. *sigh*

My wife will either end the affair and come back to me or she won't. My marriage will either be saved and better or I will continue on with my life alone. I won't affect the outcome in a positive way by forcing the issues or trying to MAKE her see reason. I see now that while I saw the sense in Plan A I was fooling myself that I was following it whenever I focused on my own needs instead of hers. Does that mean that my own needs are unimportant or don't need to be met? Nope. It only means that they must be put on hold for now until we reach a place where we can deal with them together, in love. If we never reach that place I know that I have the strength to deal with them on my own.

As the sun is rising I am finding renewed determination to pursue plan A and a new awareness of the traps and obstacles that lay ahead. What I did today was bad and the fallout is terrible. Yet I find that if it was not fatal that it was a step forward in my own understanding of this thing we are both trying to do. Funny thing about the places you can find Hope, huh?

LOL Campdog, that's WD40, isn't it? I put it on my popcorn at the movie theater. Mmmmmmmmmm. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

My wife will either end the affair and come back to me or she won't. My marriage will either be saved and better or I will continue on with my life alone.

But, CG, I guess my only question is, how will you know?

I am not doubting your intuition, Hon, but there are so many on this board who can so easily live in delusion. Because they want to. Myself included.

And you do love the woman.

I see now that while I saw the sense in Plan A I was fooling myself that I was following it whenever I focused on my own needs instead of hers. Does that mean that my own needs are unimportant or don't need to be met? Nope. It only means that they must be put on hold for now until we reach a place where we can deal with them together, in love. If we never reach that place I know that I have the strength to deal with them on my own.

This was perfect, beautiful. A plan A epiphany. But in no way a rationale not to protect yourself, Camp. And sometimes you have to do that by checking.

Perhaps the reason your wife got so angry when you were checking her messages was because you were violating her "space". But perhaps. . . just perhaps. . .she got so angry because she had something to hide.

Most WSs, trying to recover, trying to prove to their S that they are no longer in contact, would have been a bit more understanding upon catching their BSs hacking into their phone messages. Unless they had something to hide.

I do understand that your WW's history lends itself to different reactions in light of your attempts to find the truth. She may need so space, a quiet place to call her own. But CD, she has already proven she can't have a quiet place of her own and not be a WW. Right now, the onus is on her. Not you.

Sometimes you do need to remind her of that.

StillLovingHim

Still, I HAVE reminded her of that, perhaps too emphatically. There is something in all of us that wants to do the exact opposite of what we are being pushed to do.

How will I know if she has severed contact? Simple. If she doesn't there is NO chance that our relationship will survive. I will not be deceived into thinking that we are building a better relationship no matter how much I may want it. A better, more rewarding marriage will actually come to be or I will be gone and there is a limit to what I am willing to put up with.

I don't think I am letting myself be set up to be hurt by more betrayal. I fully expect more and worse to come. The simple fact is that I disbelieve EVERYTHING she tells me. Not that I think she lies in all things but as bObpure so wisely pointed out "Infidels are not capable of telling the truth if a lie appears slighty easier to them". I have no idea of how I am going to restore my trust in my wife and neither does she. Maybe our MC will have an idea or one will suggest itself in IC. Once again without my trust there is NO chance we will save our marriage. But then again doesn't she have a right to be able to place that same trust in me? How can I condone myself acting in exactly the same way that I condemn in her?

My real epiphany concerned the fact that I was focusing my attention on my own negative emotions without a true appreciation of the terrible burden that my wife is carrying as well. She loves this guy after all and she had his baby. She is also wrestling with child rape and lifelong emotional isolation issues. If I love her, and I do, than I must give her the things she needs to grow and heal and hope that it will do the trick. How unreasonable to expect her to deal with so much and undo the damage of years at the same time and then expect things to be all better RIGHT NOW. I was talking the plan A talk but I wasn't walking the walk. This is no easy task I have set myself and if I'm not in this thing for the long haul then I might as well pack it in now. Pray for me that I have the guts to see it through. Those of you who have reached out to me will always have a special place in my heart and my prayers. Thanks again.

How unreasonable to expect her to deal with so much and undo the damage of years at the same time and then expect things to be all better RIGHT NOW. I was talking the plan A talk but I wasn't walking the walk. This is no easy task I have set myself and if I'm not in this thing for the long haul then I might as well pack it in now. Pray for me that I have the guts to see it through.

Of course, Hon. I do see your rationale, and it makes sense, it does. I am not discounting that. Throw your heart over the bar so afterward, no matter what the outcome, you can look back with no regrets.

I just want you to guard your heart while you're doing it. You're a good guy.

{{{CD}}}

SLH

(( Camp ))

YOU are doing JUST fine.. and you have NO IDEA just how awesome you are holding down the fort here CAMP!

I am personally not a plan-A person myself, as my heart is on my sleeve and I cannot pretend or hide my anger- at all.
I also feel that there is a fine line between plan A and being a doormat. I find it ludicrous and very unattractive for a man (or woman) to allow a "please pick me game" to go on for very long. After all, living with a WS still in an A IS NOT LIVING AT ALL.. it is hell on earth and NO ONE, I mean NO ONE is worth sacrificing your entire health and well being for-- and the KIDS NEED A DAD- NOT A ZOMBIE!

SO- I can only tell you what I did when my H was cheating and lying about it. I remembered who I WAS AND WHAT was attractive and sexy about me. I remembered my H saying to me "I wish you thought you were all that still" and the lightbulb turned ON again.. I said SCREW this - I am getting my own life together and I am going to stand up and be a spouse that MY HUSBAND would be SICK if he lost out on. I made him do a double take and wonder WOW IS SHE GOING TO REALLY LEAVE ME... He was scared sh*tless. I even got a house and packed my stuff - he came home to the boxes. He fell apart and realized I was OUT of there - I was WORTH fighting for.

I think at some point, Camp, your wife will be attracted to the man that stands up for himself. Heck, work out, buy some new clothes, new cologne, leave her in the evening once in a while to do something you enjoy... you HAVE to push her off the fence somehow!! If not-- what the heck is she losing by keeping 2 men ?

I know I am not exactly the typical MBer but I think you can tweak your "plan" to suit the behavior. Let her know that YES you WILL need to verify (via cell or otherwise) if she is lying casue YOU ARE NOT A DOORMAT AND YOU HAVE EVERY REASON AND RIGHT in the world to protect your life and your heart from being blindsided OVER AND OVER.

Bottom line is-- there are many many good words of advise here- but remember one very important thing- there is no plan that is good enough - if you are dying of a broken heart due to a continued A..... at some point you MUST stand up and be the man that your W is most likely craving for you to be (like a child wanting consequences)... she just doesnt realize it now. Help her make up her mind. Dont sit there and babysit "their" child while she is off with him... what kind of sh*t is that? (and that takes NOTHING away from the love you have for the little guy it just, in theory, is [censored] to ME)...

It will take some time to make any choice darling! This, by far, even with your law enforcement background IS THE HARDEST thing any of us can do-- BUT you are SO freaking strong and cool - and at this point most of us are NO WHERE near as intelligent as you are, LOL so you are AHEAD of the game my friend. YOU will be okay, I just know it. Just remember that this pain is FLEETING if you allow it to be..... !

YOU ARE A SOLIDER!

Lots of people reading my soap opera Giovanna but few post and I always wonder how many read the whole thing. Truth is I do a lot of writing nowadays and very little of it is in this thread. What I write here is about 20% for me and 80% in hopes of gaining a different perspective from the one I live with inside my head every day. I have gotten those perspectives here, as well as hope and some peace as well. I am grateful beyond words to the people who have taken the time to reach out to me. And I thank you personally G.

Does it sound as if I'm doing fine? I'm not. I spend every day fighting demons and it's so hard, even if I've been holding my own up till now. Demons are not the super-raptors that Hollywood portrays. They don't come and tear you to pieces like Pumpkinhead, they come with their knives and needles and lies and go to work. Their job is to hurt you and destroy you if they can. They seek to drag you into hell and keep you there. I have been battling the Sex Demon, The Love Demon, the Hope Demon and others. Now the most powerful one of all has arrived, the Doubt Demon. I have actually named them so that I can recognise them when they come and call them by their names when I try to banish them. But I am so tired of hurting. Can it only be seven weeks? How many lifetimes have I lived in that span?

I don't feel like a doormat ma'am and I don't feel like I'm waiting around for my beloved to choose me. A large part of my pain comes from my knowlege that she chose another man to give her heart and body to and the Doubt Demon keeps telling me that this is still so. Rather, I am a man fighting with everything he has to hold on to the things he holds most dear in this life. I'm using the best weapon I have, Love, and in the only way I know how. By showing it.

I'm not a blameless innocent in this mess. I was involved for ten years in a marriage that gave neither partner the things they needed. In the process I turned into a bitter, angry, slovenly fat pig. That my wife turned to another to provide the things she craved is more a testament to my own incredible foolishness than to any innate evil on her part. I was a body builder when we met and over the past two months my body has responded incredibly to my old diet and exercise habits. The body remembers. I have remade myself physically in the same way I remade my personality.

I have not lain (laid?) down and let my wife do as she pleases. And I don't sit home and watch 'their' child, I provide care and love to my darling son, always, and he is the most wonderful baby in the world. It's true that I can't PREVENT any behaviors but I make it very clear what my agenda is. For her part my wife is responding to plan A in ways that give me some hope. She is behaving towards me in ways that she never has before and she remarks continually about the positive changes she sees in me. Of course, the Doubt Demon whispers in my ear that she is only doing all this to fool me but I know him now and I reject him and I will let the future unfold as it will.

I am no teenager (I'm 52) and one of the lessons Life has taught me is that even though it makes you want to die a broken heart is not fatal. I have survived others and if need be I will survive this one as well. I know only too well that you don't always get what you want in this life. All I can do is my honest best. By definition you can do no more than your best. If that isn't enough then I will have regrets until the day I die but I'll know that the outcome was not in the end decided by my own failings. That might just have to do.

Whoa! Whoa! If you beleive this then you also were ripe for an affair of your own. First of all, if your W had marital issues then she had the responsibility to come to you and express them. If you had responded negatively and continued on with your selfish ways, then her only other responsible choice was a simple one: Divorce you. Instead she keeps her misery to herself, stays married because she didn't want to be alone, and finally has an affair when the opportunity presented itself. To me that IS evil.

Always remember that while you and your W are BOTH equally responsible for the state of your marriage, only SHE is solely responsible for making the choice to have an affair and become pregnant with the OM's child.

TMCM

Hey- I didnt read of this in this thread... maybe I missed this? From what I read it seemed as if you had solid proof that she is STILL lying and cheating.... And my post was responsive to that scenario !

IF she is responding and IF you do feel it is only "demons" that are telling you she is lying, then I give you a BIG THUMBS UP !!!

And listen my friend you DONT have to tell me about the demons.. they ate me up and spit me out for a long time... and they are going to be there for some time. You are going to suffer and hurt for some time, no matter how wonderful your W is... BUT if she is honest and open - and giving you access to her "personal" life... and is soothing your fears, THEN it will be much easier to begin healing.

I just dont believe she is- and that may not be what you want to hear, but my gut feeling (of course only from reading your "soap opera" (which has been virtually the same story here over and over and over again a THOUSAND times)... I have a feeling she is definitely still in the A actively (maybe a lesser degree, but still in it). I can't make myself tell you what I dont see here. It irritated me just to think she left you for the weekend- she has no reason to WANT to leave you in all of your pain and insecurity and that just screams bullcrap to me... SORRY!

AND YES.. you ARE DOING soo much better than you think. You dont feel that way BUT oh believe me you can read some of the BS thoughts after dday and their rants and behaviours and you will see that you are AHEAD, yes AHEAD of the game!! Being rational and naming demons- HEY that takes some brains !

And I do no think you could possibly be a "doormat" at week 7- NO WAY. I was just giving you my random thoughts about BECOMMING or allowing that to happen. Right now, all you can do is dab your bleeding heart, maintain and just breathe..... !!

And as TMCM said-- dont you DARE allow your demons to tell you that this was what you had coming-- FEELING unfulfilled in a marriage is absolutely something that MANY if not MOST feel at some time in the marriage--- its NEVER okay to just cheat and get pregnant. Dont let your mind go there, okay!

I am very happy to see you are back to working on your body! My H was also a bodybuilder and he can get back his muscle mass LIKE OVER NIGHT and THATS NOT FAIR !! Come here so I can twist your nose you brat!!!!

Ripe for an affair bro? I CRAVED an affair! I've been celibate for five years. The only thing that saved me from straying was a lack of opportunity, not a lack of willingness. I like to think that I would have stopped short in the end because of moral fiber but I'm not so sure.

My wife didn't exactly keep her misery to herself, she asked me for a divorce. It was that which sent me into mariage counseling two years ago, albeit alone, and ultimately led me on my own personal journey of self discovery and healing.

You'll get no argument from me that her affair was evil. It is the vilest most horrible situation I have ever found myself in. Why she chose to stay married and have a TWO YEAR affair and then come back is something that still needs to be answered. She hasn't come up with any reasons I can accept so far. As far as the baby goes, true, it was a terrible choice but he is here now and I refuse to let him become a symbol. He is my beloved son and I will protect him with all my strength from any harm, especially from me.

People can commit evil acts without themselves being evil. I know this because I have done much evil in my own life, to myself and to others, yet I am not evil. After much hard work I have forgiven myself and my abusers for the things which happened and cannot be changed. If I see my wife as the ACT rather than the woman I love whole heartedly, despite her faults, what hope could I ever have in achieving my heart's desire?

I don't know how this whole thing is going to play out. I HATE having the fate of my marriage and the life I've built in the hands of someone I currently completely mistrust and whose motives are unclear to me (my wife). I see things which give me hope but my demons are quick to point out how foolish I can be. Leaving the marriage is always an option but not until I have exhausted all my resources. I do know that wayward spouses CAN return and that the door is still open for us to have the kind of relationship we both deserve despite the odds against us. Will we walk through that door together? Who knows the future. Is it worth the chance of even more pain and trouble? Absolutely.

LOL Giovanna we're here at the same time. You jumped in between TMCM and my response.

Don't get me wrong, I KNOW she's still lying to me. What I don't know is the REASON she's lying. I am aware that affairs don't always just stop dead in their tracks. Isn't that what plan A is about? I tend to believe that she is just talking to him but I've made it clear that even this is unacceptable and that may be what she's concealing with her lies. Of course, it could be more than that but I kinda already know they were having sex. I don't need to descibe the Sex Demon to anyone here or the pictures he carries in his pocket. He can still hurt me but he's already used his biggest guns. It's the thought of continued deception, regardless of the activities, that torment me most now.

But check this out. Two nights ago I started making advances to my wife and she stopped me, said she couldn't. When I asked her why she said that when we made love she wanted to be making love to ME and that her partner in adultery was still on her mind. Was that hard to hear? You bet. But to hear that kind of honesty from my wife? When she has spent a lifetime concealing her emotions from everyone close to her and even herself? Wow! This person is just as alien to me as the one who had another man's baby, but this one shows promise.

I'm not going to go back to sleep. She can lie but she can't fool me any longer, now I'm paying attention. 25 years in Law Enforcement, two years as lead investigator for a PI and a mind as twisted as a pretzel leave me uniquely suited to ferreting out the truth. I ACHE for the day I won't have to ferret out anything, when I can look at her and see her smile and know what she's thinking. That's not such an impossible dream, is it?

P.S. Sorry ma'am but you're right. 10 years of sloth and 40 pounds of fat just dropped off like I stepped out of a fat man suit. It's amazing but the body remembers. If it's any consolation just think of the funny faces and noises we make when we squeeze out that last rep. God bless you G, you gave me my first smile of the day. Thanks

I'm really glad you see that as a promising sign. I trust the pain of hearing that was unimaginable, but yes...she was being radically honest with you, and that is good.

It's one of the things I've struggled with, and have yet to tell my BH...and we are 2 years into our recovery. We're not "there" yet, not by a long shot. My dishonesty by omission, I suspect is part of the reason.

You are doing very well campdog. Keep calling out to K whenever you can. IMO, he's def the one to talk to around here who will most understand your situation, and can give you step by step ideas.

Sounds like you have a "good handle" on what Plan A is. I like what a regular poster says about it, "Plan A is about being a Welcome Mat, NOT a doormat". I think you have that understanding. Also, always remember that you don't move to Plan B just because you sucked at Plan A. Rather, you move to Plan B when your excellent, Plan A didn't get the desired results, (in a relatively short amount of time), and when you need to protect any love you have left for your WS. In fact, for Plan B to have it's VERY BEST chance at success, you need to do a STELLAR Plan A.

Best regards,

~ad

Autumn, are you saying that after all this time after your A. you still miss your OM? Or were you saying that you did miss him in the begining?

I'm just trying to get understanding here, sorry if it's an offensive question.

Hi Wife~

Not offensive at all...

What I was saying, is that much like campdog's wife, I still sometimes struggle with xom being on my mind when my H and I are intimate. I've alluded to this before on here and have said that it helps to keep my eyes wide open during SF. However, no I haven't shared this with my H, YET. I'm a chicken$h*t...

That's why I see what campdog's wife said was a good sign. Who knows, maybe her motives weren't pure...maybe they were, but at least she appears to have been RH.

camp~ How did you respond to her when she said that?

Autumn, I know that you see this as a sign of honesty and I can see where it would be taken that way. I can see why Campdog took it that way. I think it would hurt to hear that from H though. I don't know that it would necessarily be a positive step for all couples. I pictured H w/ OW during SF enough on my own, it wouldn't have helped to know he might have been thinking about her.

Actually, I know I asked him if he did before. I don't know if I could have handled it if he said yes.

Hi ladies, thanks for your candor. Autumn I especially appreciate your insights since you have been where my wife is now. To answer your question when she told me her feelings I backed off and said 'that's OK baby, I love you. Go to sleep'. I held her in my arms and enjoyed the feeling of her body against mine and her breath on my shoulder. When I was sure she was asleep I went into the bathroom and cried. When I was done I went back to bed and slept like a rock. No bad dreams woke me up.

In the morning I caught her coming out of the bathroom and gave her a big hug and a kiss. I thanked her for what she told me the night before. I told her that while it wasn't easy to hear I knew that she was being honest and open with me and that I wanted her to know that I didn't miss it. She looked at me, really looked at me, and smiled and said 'thank you'. Then SHE kissed ME, something that is new in our relationship. As I watched her drive off to work I wondered if she was going to call him that day.

Hard work this plan A stuff.

CD,

I have nothing to offer you except support and hugs. I wish there were more we could do, but you are getting wonderful advice.

You are doing an amazing job. It may not feel like it, but you are.

You have a clear and beautiful way of expressing yourself. I suspect that is one reason why your wife must love you so. Continue to trust your instincts and just love her.

slh

Thank you ma'am, I can use all the support and hugs I can get.

Well, here are the results of my 'amazing job' so far. Wife and I are seemingly closer than we have ever been. She has even opened up to me a little about the affair. But the revelations are more damaging to my feelings than healing. First off it seems that SHE was the one who made the decision to stop using condoms. Seems they irritated her so they abandoned them. I wonder who's decision it was to decline any other means of birth control? What the hell was she thinking? Does she see me as that big a patsy? Is there some other interperetation I can put on this ugly revelation?

Then there was the Fourth of July. We went away for the weekend to attend an annual family get together (mine). On the way home we were having what I thought was a good conversation concerning the baby and visitation with his father. I am convinced that he (her partner in adultery) should be made to go the court route and she is just as determined to give him visitation independently. The problem here is that I am certain that while she has agreed to go along with the court route she will absolutely bring him the baby on the sly and lie about her actions. So much for NC.

During this conversation she said that no matter what decision we made that my son's father would always be part of our lives. I asked her what she meant. She said that 'what if he calls up and wants to know how the baby is doing? Should I hang up?" I said that that was exactly what she should do. She said that it wasn't right, that he was the baby's father. She became very angry and stated that no matter what I did I wasn't going to force her to be 'mean' to her partner in adultery. She said that he didn't do anything to her, that SHE was the one who broke HIS heart! From this I have determined that she has no intention of breaking off contact with this guy. She thinks that they can just be 'friends'!

I shared this with our MC and he got a very sad look on his face. I told him that this felt like the death knell of our marriage. He said that while he didn't know if divorce was the correct decision yet he believed that the outcome was really all up to her and how well she dealt with her issues. He also said that it was probably my efforts in plan A that has kept us together thus far. She went to see him individually the next night. Told me a little of what they discussed. I had told her most of what I had spoken of the night before leaving out the parts about divorce and the 'death knell'. She was very loving and affectionate. She said that she had told him of how she thought I was an 'extraordinary' man and of how much she wanted to make the marriage work.

I'm going nuts. How in the world do I interperet all the mixed signals I am getting? I've found little to go on in this area. Should I keep doing what I am doing for the time being and continue on in the hope that she will see how wrong her decision to maintain contact with her partner in adultery is? Do I listen to the Mistrust Demon and just assume that everything she says and does has an ulterior motive? I see all the signs of a second d-day coming but how much of that stems from my own inner fears and insecurities? If I could trust her words and actions and take them at face value then the simple fact would be that she is making a supreme effort to repair our relationship. I am not a man who is comfortable with emotional conflicts and conflicting ideas. God help me, I don't know what else can.

Campdog,

Your wife is still not out of the "fog" yet. This is common---I heard much of the same crap from my wife six months before the affair was truly over (she wasn't pregnant at the time, however). The stuff about abandoning birth control is typical of an affair---just like heroin addicts aren't particularly careful to use new needles, an affair is an addiction that comes with all the issues that addictive behaviors are characterized by.

I think you're doing fine. You're making good progress on many fronts. You need to (respectfully) negotiate an end to contact and an agreement to use the courts to allow the OM to get contact. If she's unwilling to do this, then Plan B it is---and I see you there no later than the beginning of September.

And I believe that it's unlikely that you will save this marriage without going to Plan B. Having said that, a good Plan A is essential. In baseball terms, it's the mid-relief pitcher that sets up a victory for the closer...

Hiya boss, glad to see you haven't retired completely and thanks for your advice. I'd really like to know why you think that plan A is unlikely to succeed at this point. From what I gather plan A is about dissipating the 'Fog'. I really believe that we can work through this if she can just stay away, completely away, from that sorry SOB. I am more determined every day that continued contact of any sort is not something I will tolerate. Assuming that I am able to determine whether or not my boundary is being respected are you saying that you are convinced that she will NOT be able to achieve NC?

The reason I'm asking is that plan B is really not much of an option in my case. Regardless of whomever moves out the simple economic fact is that we are not able to support two households. Separating means completely discarding the life we have built together. We would lose the apartment where we live with the kids now and probably have to split our possesions. I would not separate until I could take my oldest son with me and I would definately move out of state. I reread the stuff on plan B and if I'm reading it correctly it seems to me that it is an iffy solution at best for saving a wrecked marriage. Dr. Harley makes the point repeatedly that it may not work.

Really looking for your input on this one pal and I'd love to hear from bOb as well. Great posting about his apology, wasn't it? You two (as well as all the others) have helped me enormously in this terrible time. Your success story has kept me steadfast so far. I've never moved more cautiously or with greater deliberation in my entire life. I'd hate to take a misstep now.

Actually, campdog; I think you misread Harley's intent about Plan B (and he has revised his methodology somewhat since publishing the book). Plan A is about dissapating the fog by exposure---as well as providing an attractive alternative for the wayward spouse (by not lovebusting), and attempting to negotiate an end to the affair.

You are having a real impact in your plan A---it's very evident. And I do believe that you'll work through this if she stays away from the SOB. However---if she's not completely clear of the affair (which she isn't)---like an addict, she's liable to slip up and renew contact (perhaps many more times). Even if it isn't for sex, this contact will set her back. What I'm not convinced about is not that the affair will end (it most assuredly will); but whether your marriage can survive if she slips up 4-6 times with you making a heroic Plan A effort over the next 12 months. If you're super tough, realize this addiction for what it is, and can desensitize yourself to it---it might be possible. There are precious few around here who have been able to do this and have successfully recovered their marriages. I'm pretty tough, had a great coach (Steve Harley), and understood pretty much EXACTLY what was going on---and I could still only do Plan A for 6 months.

Plan B can be tough. But that's not necessarily a bad thing, especially if the WS continues to fence-sit. You wouldn't necessarily discard the life you have built together, but you would have drastic changes in it that would have some serious consequences. And consequences is what Plan B is about. It's about your wife facing the fact that she had an affair and is unwilling to work towards a "mutually enthusiastic" point in the marriage. It's allowing your wife to see just how desirable a mate the SOB would make (assuming that they rush together), in comparison to you. It's allowing your wife to feel the anguish of her children because her decisions (or lack thereof) have caused her to break up the family. And it insulates you from having to be heroic in the face of an affair---it preserves your love for her so that if and when she realizes that perhaps your marriage would be a viable option, when she comes back, you won't slam the door in her face. People who stay too long in Plan A burn out and they end up transitioning to divorce much too quickly.

Plan B is an option, and it may be your best one in a couple of months. And you need to be ready to implement it. Having said that---leaving my kids behind as I went to Plan B was by far the scariest, most horrible thing I've ever had to face in my life. It's not fun---it's a very serious and hard decision. But in my case (and the case of most), it's usually the right decision.

Hi CD

K, as usual, is on the money.

Plan A is about only one primary thing - negotiating and end to the affair.

its also required if plan B is to be successful. i.e. show WS the benefits of being with you, then if they will not effect NC you withdraw ALL such benefit sfrom them until such times as they choose to effect NC and respect any other boundaries you enforce.

I studied MB voraciously, but did not have the benefit of direct coaching from Steve as K did.

I did, however, have wonderful guidance from experience folks.

Its often said I did a good plan A, and well, it worked better than some, but it was SO HARD CD. It sliek having to bury your every instinct for ages. To be emotionally starved and abandoned without assurance of eventual success.

And I could not have plan A'ed for more than six months. As it is I plan A'ed for four months and it was OM GF who realy ended the affair. I exposed to her with proof and she terrified OM into NC by laying down BRUTAL boundaries immediately.

Without her, I am sure Squid would have continued in her entangled affair and I would have had to plan B.

So CD, I am outside my experience talking about plan B other than from an academic viewpoint. I don't advise outside my experience if I can help it.

Mortarman is a wise counsel on Plan B.

BTW, one year ago today, Squid stole our kids college money and took it to screw OM is a seedy motel. She offered him the money as a downpayment on a flat for them to set up a life together in.

Today,one year of MB later, we ate breakfast then made love in the sunshine at our holiday home, she pledging eternal love to me. She is transparently honest, ashamed, and wholly repentant. A great mom and wife.

It might be uninstinctive but MB WORKS, CD. K, myself and hundreds of others are testament to that.

All blessings mate

I'm glad you're still with me bOb. I read your post on your apology and wept. I think I know EXACTLY how that felt and I am so happy for you and your beloved. I wanted to add my congratulations to all the others but figured it would just get lost in the crowd. So let me do it here. Good for you bro, God has his hand on your shoulder. The part in your post about God's time struck a chord in me and gave me some badly needed strength. You and K are genuine heroes in my book and I am humbly grateful that you both take the time to reach out to me. I feel like I spend a lot of time begging God, my wife, my MC, anyone, for something on which to pin my hopes for saving my marriage. Yours and K's stories give me some of that hope. Thank you both.

It seems like I have been fighting this battle to save my relationship with my wife forever but it's actually only one month since I discovered this website. Before that I had searched the web for literature on infidelity and found it but found precious little in the way of guidance for coping. Prior to finding MB I was just walking wounded looking for a place to fall down. All I remember of that first month after d-day is that it was unrelenting anguish. I don't count those first 30 days as part of my plan A. There was some instinctive effort to support and soothe my spouse but there was also plenty of recrimination and throwing my pain in her face. Finding MB and plan A helped me to understand what I needed to do and to focus on the task at hand. So I would say I have only been plan A'ing for 30 days.

This would make 4 months in plan A the beginning of October and fits in with my determination to NOT spend the Holidays here if I am not convinced that my wife is sticking to NC. Last holiday season was marked by my joy with having a new baby to share it with and the idea that a second season will be marred by more lies is unbearable. I have NOT shared this agenda with my wife, I've only told her that I cannot keep up my loving efforts indefinately while knowing that she is still involved with that morally bankrupted SOB. For her part she says that she has not seen him and I sort of believe her, if only because I am watching her like a hawk. It's possible that she is lying about physical contact but I tend to doubt it. Phone contact is another story. I have told her that as far as my emotional reaction goes there is little difference between her talking to her partner in adultery on the phone and her being naked in bed with him.

For her part she said that she didn't see how talking on the phone was continuing the affair. I have told her that I, our MC and every website in the world says that complete NC is essential for recovery from an affair. I don't think she gets it yet but have hope that she will. As K said she is still in the Fog but she told me that she is sticking to NC because she wants her partner in adultery to move on and find the woman he deserves! (I hope he gets what he deserves as well, but not in the sense she meant it)

K said that he believes she will slip up regarding the affair and I expect that to happen as well. She has already made a serious blunder in lying about continued contact as it has destroyed any remaining trust I had in her. It's a big problem for me because I fear that as a result I may miss or disregard any honest efforts she makes at rebuilding our relationship. I can only remain vigilant against that happening and hope that I can see things for how they really are.

For my own part I really see plan A as a lifetime commitment, assuming that we remain together. Had I been doing a few years ago what I'm doing now I wouldn't be in the horrible situation I am in at present. I find that I LIKE finding ways of showing my wife how much I love her and that I treasure each smile or hug that these efforts bring. I have no problem plan A'ing forever but only if it has the desired effect. I don't just want to stop the affair, I want my wife to fall in love with me again (or maybe for the first time). I feel like that process has begun but only the coming months will reveal the truth. I fear and detest the thought of breaking up my home but I deserve more than what I have at present. I am worth more than betrayal and lies. I pray to God that my wife will see that as well.

As usual a long post. I have come to value this place as a sort of chronicle of my journey towards I know not what. I am filled with gratitude towards those of you who have reached out to me, a stranger. For all the rest of the multitide who have read my poor meanderings stay tuned for breaking news. I wonder where I'll be a year from now when I read this thread again?

CD

you who have reached out to me, a stranger

You aren't a stranger CD. We are all members of the world's best club that nobody wants to join <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I read your posts, but leave specific advice to K and similar as they have personal experience of your sit.

Take time to study the successes on these boards. It may take some history as many recover so fully from the gates of hell that they leave the boards to live a loving live.

I will dig out a 'success stories' thread that I can recall.

But we BS tend to focus on those folks who ar ein teh same [censored] as ourselves, as in recognition there is brotherhood.

What we should also do is take time to look at the picture on the box.

By God's grace, K, and myself are into well indicated recoveries.

Check out also the marital recovery stories of:

MelodyLane
Pepperband
Orchid
KYellow
KiwiJ
Nerlycrazy

and personal recovery miracles of

WAT
FNCJ ( Fine New CJ)
Tanelorn Pete

There are folks who divirced after work, but recovered their heart and stand tall and happy with their self respect intact.

All of these are my heroes and heroines. Search and read, CD.

I will find a list of others and their stories to humble and inspire you as they did me.

K's story is truly staggering.

Squid an' me we're doing GREAT CD ! We just went for a lovely Thai lunch in the sunshine. When the waitress tuned her back Squid flashed her boobs at me - made me spit wine all over my table ! One year ago she was banging OM and told me she wanted me to find someone else as she didn't love me.

This morning she told me " I love you because you're lovely".

Study CD, and stick with it.

All blessings.

Thanks for sticking with me bOb. It helps immensely to think of you and K when I'm at my lowest as I was yesterday. I have a mental image of you and your beloved sitting across from each other at a table outside in a cafe, looking at each other and just loving each other. It's a place I yearn so much to be in with my wife and it makes me smile and brings tears to my eyes at the same time. I'm turning into an old woman in my old age.

Spent most of yesterday lying on the couch, paralyzed and hating my spouse. As I lay there ALL the demons came and had a field day with my soul. Without getting into details my beloved wife tore me a new Ahole in the morning before she left for work. There was absolutely NO reason or provocation for it as she admitted later when she called and apologised. She said she just woke up in a 'bad mood'. I thanked her for apologising and hated her all the more for it (but didn't express it to her). By the time she came home I couldn't even look at her and was on the verge of tears thinking that I just couldn't go on, that I had to get away or go mad.

Went to see our counselor later that evening. I was mad at him as well for insisting I come alone for IC when I felt that my wife should have been there as well (she sees him on the following night for IC). Turns out that he is a lot smarter than I am. As I vented all the horrible things that were wrong with my life I came to a few (assisted) realizations. Turns out that I love my wife to distraction and that I was not as close to the end of my rope as I thought. By my counselor's gentle guidance I was able to see the burden my wife was carrying and to refocus my attention away from myself and back on to plan A. I had planned to stay out after counseling until the house was asleep but went straight home with a renewed sense of purpose.

When I got home I found my beloved wife in bed, under the covers with the lights off, a small huddle of misery. She was so very sorry for what had happened that morning and had no way of expressing it. She revealed that she had dreamed the night before of her uncle who had raped her when she was a child. I told her that I was still there, and that I was there for her whenever she wanted me. I told her that my love for her filled me up and that I wanted to fill her with it as well. She began to weep, this woman who NEVER cries, and took my hand and said "thank you for everything. I love you". She asked me to hold her, this woman who hates to be touched, and I held her until she fell asleep.

I just wanted to write this down so that I never forget. Perhaps someone else can use what I learned. I spent a day focused on my own agony and fears and wound up hating my spouse in the bargain. It was a horrible day. Later on in the same day I moved my focus away from myself and onto the woman I loved. There I discovered not the monster I had spent the day despising, but a lonely, hurting girl trapped in the prison she had built for herself to protect her from the REAL monsters. I held my hand out to her and she took it.

It doesn't matter what the future brings it won't change last night. I have this moment and this epiphany in my heart forever. Please Lord, let me always remember and give us both many more such moments.

CD, you have uncovered the deep love your WW has for you.

Nurture it, br'a. Its the way to happiness.

Aye my friend, that's exactly how it felt. And I see the path you speak of shining in the distance. But I know it's only one of many possible roads leading to the future and I don't know where the one I'm on is leading.

Sooo... Yesterday my best friend presented us with a CD he made of pictures he has taken of the baby (he's the Godfather). On it was a very nice slide presentation of pictures he took on the day my son was born. It tore my heart out. I started thinking of how I felt on that day and of what I know now. The Sex Demon came charging in and he's jabbing me with his needle as I write this. Not really neccessary to describe my thoughts, is it?

Before she left for work my beloved asked to see the pictures. While they were playing she asked me why I wasn't watching. I told her that I had already seen it and it was too hard to watch again. Specifically I told her that they made me think of who was called and what was said after the people in the pictures went home to spread the joyous news. She asked me if it really mattered now!

Dear God, how can she fail to comprehend? Those pictures were taken in November 2004, d-day was May 2005 and I have told her of my concerns that the affair continues even now. YEARS of lies and deceit. NINE MONTHS of her watching my joy and love all the while knowing it was based on a lie. MORE LIES as she continued contact up until at least Father's Day just past. Does it matter? Yeah, it matters.

What a difference a day makes. For those betrayers who may be reading this post see my words and know the truth. Rationalize, explain and regret all you want. There is only one way to describe what you did to your spouse. It was pure, unadulterated, selfish, EVIL. You took things from a person you promised to love that you had no right to take, things which you can never give back. Shame on you!

Had to get this poison out of my system so I put it here. I also wrote my wife a letter she will never see, and got a LOT more specific. It helps to vent and I'm learning how to ride this roller coaster. Plan A is undamaged and I won't let the anguish I'm feeling right now sabotage any progress we may have made.

But please tell the man to stop the ride. It's making me sick and I want to get off.

camp~

Your wife is still in the "fog", as she's got some major denial going on. That's how she's able to ask, "does it really matter now?". It sucks, and it's certainly no excuse, just saying--she doesn't get it yet. If and when she comes to her senses and sees what she did while looking at it from the vantage point of the "light of day", believe you me she will regret not only that comment, but all the other heartless comments and deeds she's done.

Regarding your admonition to betrayers who may be reading here...I may be wrong, but most likely most of us reading here are former betrayers who fully know what we did was "pure, unadulterated, selfish, EVIL". But hey, a reminder once in awhile never hurts. Especially if it helps to get things off your chest. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

~ad

I do apologise to you ma'am, and to anyone else whom I may have hurt by my words. I was venting pure and simple and I realize now that my words should have been directed at my wife and her partner in adultery. I was crying out in anguish and truly didn't mean to lash out at anyone. Shame on ME.

I won't edit my previous post since this thread is one of my journals but I hope that anyone who felt hurt by my words will continue reading on to this one. Now that a few hours have passed I am breathing more deeply and my newest wound is scabbing over. Autumn, thank you for your words and for your understanding. You are a special person.

CD
Like REM almost sang

" Everybody vents...sometimes"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good vent, br'a !

I posted an OM vent once and got censored ! Me and my mate Aussie were debating whether a baseball bat would smash OM's shins more painfully than a Cricket bat !

Vent on

Ahh, the gentle Brits. I guess you guys retain some of their gentility. Shins hurt, my friend, but knees make em remember ya. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

They censor fantasies here? Lordy, how explicit did you GET?

Aussie is in the Australian SAS. One tough mo'fo'
I'm a projects punk with a VERY shaky youth.

We got pretty graphic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Click here to see edited version

I'm aure you could've added nicely though !

Love the 'knee' thing !:)

I still have a baby sledge and a can of mace in my trunk in case I meet OM.

Thanks again bOb. I read your thread and it gave me a much needed smile. I'd guess that was your intent. No wonder you are so highly regarded here (and at home). But I think the MB censors need a little more practice.

Oddly enough I have never had the urge to beat the [censored] out of my wife's partner in adultery. What good would it do? I spent half a lifetime being one of the most brutal people in a brutal place and the memories I carry bring me no pride but shame instead. It took five years of retirement and two years of therapy to turn me back into a human being. It may still cost me my marriage. I am not that person anymore nor do I ever want to see him again.

Having said that, let's see how much the censors have learned <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Here's a little NY Prison 101:

NEVER use your hands on an OM if there's anything else available. If you must use your hands avoid the head which is well armored.
A smile will cause a person to relax 99% of the time.
As soon as you know you're gonna dance, move! NEVER let the OM make the first move.
Small blunt objects are quicker and easier to use than big, heavy ones.
A blackjack is properly used back and forth, not up and down.
Most people will get scared when they see their own blood. It gives you an immediate, huge edge.

There are other things I know about like edged weapons, explosives and flammable liquids but this is supposed to be theraputic humor, not an Al Quaida training bulletin. Those are real street fighting tips but viewers should not try them at home. Those that seriously consider such things should think about what it says about someone who feels justified in hurting another person.

Enough disclaimers. How did I do? It's been MONTHS since I even felt like cracking a joke. Sometimes it feels like my smile and laugh are gone forever. Think I'll live?

cd you're right ! Just wanted to make ya smile a bit !

We should have a humour thrhead here !

Doin'y believe the "bob" hype CD.

I'm just a sad man turning all the switches back to 'happy' where I can. Just like you.

Oh goodness camp, no need to apologize. Didn't you see the smilie at the end of my comments? I've been around here long enough to have developed some fairly thick skin. Your words were all sweetness and light in comparison to lots of other things I've read in the past.

But I will be very careful around you from now on. I like my knees.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

And I'll bet they're very nice knees too. Seriously, there WAS a need to apologise and I did see your smiley. Feeling bad is no excuse for lashing out at anyone. I am human and I make mistakes but I want to acknowlege them when I recognize them and try to avoid repeating them. I'm glad you're reading this ma'am because I'd like your input on what I'm thinking about right now.

As I said I'm using this thread as part of my journal of this awful experience. It's about 50/50 right now between writing on paper and writing here. I actually value this record more because of the feedback I get from people I have come to respect. When this thread eventually dies I'm going to print it out and add it to my folder. You guys will be with me the rest of my life, not that I'll need a written record to remember you all.

Feeling a very odd combination of emotions this morning and I'm not really sure what's going on. Today for the first time since this nightmare started I did NOT wake up feeling like I wanted to die. I actually feel kind of upbeat but I'm not sure why and I mistrust the emotion. My heart is lighter but my mind tells me there's little to be happy about.

Wife came home last night and for a change all the children were either out or sleeping. We lay on the bed and actually talked! We spoke of her affair and the reasons for it. We did not agree on everything and a good part of what I heard was hurtful but we did NOT argue or end the discussion on a bad note. First time. I actually got the impression that not only was she being truthful with me, she had actually given the subject some thought. We ended the talk about the affair by mutual agreement when I (stupidly) began knocking her partner in adultery. But we went on to discuss our individual emotional needs and what we were hoping our marriage would become. On the topic of where we wanted our marriage to go we are in seeming agreement.

When the baby woke up we put him in the stroller and went to a church fair they are having around the corner. We had spoken about it earlier on the phone and she said she wanted to go. I didn't mention it when she got home. One of my main issues has been that she avoids spending time with me alone but she said let's go without any prompting from me. We saw some of our neighbors whom we hadn't seen in a while and they all remarked on my new physique. One of the daughters actually said I was 'hot'! Later I remarked how nice it was for people to notice my efforts and to get compliments. She said I deserved it. I made a deliberate comment about wondering when I was going to 'get to her' and she said I WAS getting to her! Yikes. Later, she made some very definite suggestions about what we could do tommorrow morning when she didn't have to get up and get ready for work. Double yikes.

And there's the rub. Am I feeling better just because of the prospect of having sex with my cheating spouse? Am I THAT shallow? I know that some of my good feeling also comes from the nice time we spent together but the sex part worries me. For one thing I know her partner in adultery is going to be right there in bed with us. She has admitted in the not too distant past that she loved having sex with him and that she misses him sexually. I am no kid but I'm surprised to find that I am worried about 'comparisons'.

Another thing is that our sex life even before the time she claims she started her affair was terrible. It was ME who first started avoiding sex because her attitude was always 'let's get it over with' and it had become a chore rather than a pleasure. Now we both know that she was dealing with unconscious rape issues but what does that bode for us when she has only just now begun to deal with them? I'd love to take it slow and just make slippery sensuous love without even worrying about consumation. But I fear it will just be more of the same old slam bam thank you ma'am. After all this time it won't satisfy me to go back to the bad old days.

Then there's the trust issue. *sigh* (I really gotta shrink my brain some. I'm going to go nuts). She was willing to screw me once in all those years when she knew she was pregnant. Can she really be making this suggestion to continue her deception? I reread this entire thread and I see that more than once I asked 'can she really be..' and the answer turned out to be yes. Dear Lord, what a mess I am.

So there it is. Got my thoughts sorted out and I find I still feel OK. Gonna focus on the nice time we spent together and try not to worry about deception. It will come out if it's there. Lord, I know you answer my prayers in your own way and your own time and I trust you. Just please give me the answer I want and need this time.

campdog,

If it's any consolation all of your thoughts and concerns are VERY normal. Par for the course for this period of attempting to rebuild.

I was VERY vey doubtful I would EVER be able to work through all these conflicting feelings and emotions. Not even sure I wanted to. And seriously doubted my sanity many times. I read the book "After the Affair" by Janis Spring Phd (Check your library) and finally realized I was NOT losing it. These feelings are so normal. Believe it or not, there WILL come a time when you won't think about all of this 24/7. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


This is important. In order to work THROUGH this and to encourage her to open up to you, you HAVE to make discussions a SAFE PLACE for her. She has to know you aren't going to lash out at her or throw things back in her face,,not now or at a later time. It's not easy. I know! And LISTEN! You'd be suprised what you can learn when you allow her to bare her soul without interuption. And try to keep your questions to a minimum,,and the IMPORTANT ones. Not "how big is he?" or "what positions/how many times". I know they haunt but the important ones are "What can WE do" What were WE missing?" "What can I do?"


Oppss. We didn't get THAT warning to you fast enough. DON'T do it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> She's not ready to hear it. For some ungodly reason, many FWS's take that as a PERSONAL assault. An attack on THEIR choice, THEIR ABILITY to attract someone desirable. They don't see it as an evaluation of the OP at all. She'll see it herself. Just not right now.


She's probably not commenting regularly cause she sees you everyday. Sometimes it's not easy to see unless others point it out and you REALLY take an unbiased look! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Yes, that is a problem for awhile. You know, one thing I did was to put pictures of US on the nightstands. Us together as a couple. I had a friend that was handy with the camera come over with several rolls of film and take a bunch of very casual pictures of us. Out of several rolls there were many pictures that were good,,good enough to enlarge into 5x7's and frame. And I put them all over the house, particularly in the bedroom. How long has it been since you two have had pictures taken? "Couple" pictures? Just the two of you? I bet no current ones. Hard to think of someone else when there's constant reminders of the TWO OF YOU all over the place!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Also, in the bedroom,, keep your eyes open. Look into each others eyes. Say each others names often. Keep the focus on the TWO OF YOU. Don't let your mind wander.



As you have already concluded, sadly, only time will tell. In the meanwhile, keep giving it all you got! The old saying around here is "Fake it til you make it."

You're doing a great job and I wish you all the luck in this world!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Been a few days since I posted here but I've been reading and thinking. I am seeing signs of progress but as I've said before I mistrust my emotions. I know the capacity people have for self deception and I am more capable than most.

It will only be a couple of days now (2) before I'm able to verify if my wife is telling the truth about NC with her partner in adultery, on the phone at least. I am absolutely expecting to find that they have spoken even though she has adamantly denied this on the three occassions I have asked since June 19. How will I react when I find out the truth, if I am right? How SHOULD I react? It has been so nice having my wife back. Spending time together, giving and receiving gestures of affection and talking is feeding a part of myself that's been starved for years. I have even woken up the past couple of days without feeling like I wanted to die.

I spent the last few days focusing on the positive things I was seeing and telling myself that it was for real. I'm so afraid of the effect that discovering my wife is still talking to that sorry SOB will have that I'm tempted to not check, but of course I will. Since I know for sure that they were still talking as late as June 10 and perhaps beyond that are my expectations too high too soon? I know that two months is way too soon to abandon plan A especially since I am seeing genuine responses. But I am really coming to dread my upcoming revelation.

So hard to see the way. I sometimes think that I'll never be able to think straight again. Am I torturing myself? Am I being a fool? I don't really expect any of you guys to give me any answers, just thinking out loud. But thanks for listening.

CD, you have made it clear that you will not shackle your WW to you right ?

She has to know that no NC means 'No Campdog'.

Be firm but loving. The entry price for your working on your M with her is:

NC for ever
Transparency of action to rebuild your trust
Effort in recovery.

Tell her she doesn;t have to do any of this, but you cannot work on your M without these as such would be less than you deserve being a decent God fearing man.

It should be your WWs job to convince you with proof that she is in NC, not your job to have to find out.

All blessings CD. Its gets better than this I promise.

campdog, i have not been to this site for obout a year now. i just stopped in to see which old friends were still here and saw your post. i haven't had time to read the who thread but spot read thru it and all have given you excellent advice. i will try to find time to read up on your complete story but as life in my house is so hectic and time consuming it may take me a couple of days.

i just wanted to let you know that i have been thru something very similar. i am raising our oc (grace) and the bio dad is paying cs and taking regular vistations.

i can also tell you one thing. that if you are strong enough to stay with your w and work on your marriage you will be strong enough to love that child whether the bio dad is in or out of the picture. (from my viewpoint it would be much easier if he were out but not because of the emotional problems from me but rather from fullhouse (my wife)).

i love grace as much as any of my other 7 children. she has a special place in my heart that the others don't because of the situations regarding her creation.

it may be a couple of days but i will try to catch up on your story.

be proud and hold your head up for the character you are showing trying to work thru this nightmare.

pops

Yeah bro, when this whole nightmare started and she told me she loved the guy I told her to go with her heart and not her mind. I've made basically the same point a number of times since without belaboring the point. SHE said the affair was over and SHE said she wanted to make our relationship work.

Problem is that she is using the exact same words to reassure me now that she used before I caught her lying. Same look of sincerity, everything. I keep telling her that I won't accept anything but NC and she still believes that they can be 'friends' "not now, but in years to come". I know it's the Fog but she doesn't. She can't envision a future without her partner in adultery in it because of the baby. Actually neither can I but MY vision of the future doesn't include my wife interacting with her lover.

On the up side my son is going on 9 months and I KNOW it's been at least 68 days since she brought him the baby since I've never let him out of my sight since d-day. No subpoena, no court orders so maybe you and K called the shot on that one. It can only be a handfull of times he's seen 'his' son so how much effort has the creep made to 'be a part of his son's life' in almost a year?

I believe you when you say it will get better my friend. If I didn't believe that then I would have been gone already. I am praying hard that she is telling me the truth this time and that it's only the Doubt Demon whispering in my ear giving me a hard time. I'll know in a few days.

pops, I would gratefully inhale any of your own insights that you would be willing to share with me. That goes especially for anything having to do with interactions between your spouse and your child's father. I've said it before but this is by far the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. The only easy thing is loving my new son. This is a long thread (mostly because I'm a windy [censored]) so don't feel like you have to read it right away, or even at all. I never counted but I think the majority of the posts are mine. I do thank you for taking the time to reach out to me. God bless you and good luck to you.

Hi Pops,

Just wanted to say hello and to express the thought that I hope you and FullHouse are doing well. Are you paying attention to your health? You had better be, fella. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Take care and God Bless,

JL

Campdog, I've got to tell you how wonderful it sounds to me to hear how much you love this baby! And your right, if this man was so interested in this child, he'd be fighting nail and tooth to be with him and your opinion of him sounds just as you said.

Your son is very lucky to have you in his life and raiseing him. You will be blessed from this.

I too hope for you sake that your doubts are just doubts and not truths as you deserve so much.

Your wife is very lucky to have you, and I hope she does what it takes to help heal your marriage.

Keep your son safe and do what's best for him. Which is what it sounds as if your doing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Needs, I feel like I understand how bOb feels when everyone congratulates him on his recovery with Squid. It's not a big deal to me that I have the feelings for my son that I do. He is not responsible for the actions of my wife and her partner in adultery nor is it concievable that he should lack for anything because of my own failings and frailties. I have only to see his smile when he sees me or feel his small arms around my neck to know that to love him the way I do is the only possible course. But I remain sure of little else.

Had a mini discussion with my wife yesterday about the baby and his father. It went well for a change. No anger on her part or 'pushing' on my part. During the course of the talk my wife told me that she made her partner in adultery promise not to make 'trouble' for us and he did so. Later, she said that she told him to go ahead and take us to court. So of course I'm wondering which statement is true or if both are. If both statements are true then I'm wondering when she gave him the go ahead on court action. She claims that she hasn't spoken to him since Father's Day.

No movement that I can see on my NC boundary. She still feels like they can be 'friends'. I kind of feel like she hasn't had contact with him since she made an offhand comment that "he's through with me" which I let pass. But I feel like she still hasn't let go of him yet. Am I missing something? I'm not sure how to interperet her stated decision to make him go the court route or even sure if I believe her. She gives every impression of being a loving mother and wife and I feel like all her time is accounted for but the Doubt Demon is my constant companion. I'm not even sure if that's such a bad thing because I fear what it will do to my heart if I trust her and her words and I find that she is still deceiving me. On the other hand I worry about denying honest efforts on her part to rebuild our marriage. Sometimes (like now) I feel like my head is going to explode. Has that ever actually happened to anyone here? I have these visions of my head swelling with conflicting emotions and thoughts and then just popping all over the keyboard like a water balloon. At least my kids wouldn't have to ask for their turn on the computer. I wonder if they (or she) would even notice if I was sitting here headless. Not easy this plan A stuff.

I am curious whether all the extended families to all involved know? And if so how that has impacted the situation.

CD,

A few years back I was a member of a men's only gym that had a rash of injuries from its new members that the owners of the club chose to put up a huge sign at the entrance: PLEASE LEAVE YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR. Well Plan A and Plan B also requires the BS to do the same for the ego driven, emotion based actions actually end up doing more harm than good. It is NOT about becoming a doormat but about becoming emotionally strong so that no matter what the outcome of the marriage turns out to be, the BS will benefit either way. Always remember that your emotions will almost always steer you wrong when it comes to taking action. Your final decisions should be made only after careful and deliberate consideration for the long term interests of ALL parties involved and with the resoluteness that once you made them that there is no turning back, ever.

TMCM

I think I get your point about ego and emotion driven actions TMCM but how do you feel about instincts ? By instinct I mean those thoughts and ideas that I get about my situation that I cannot prove or disprove but that have the FEEL of truth? In this context I mostly distrust them but in more instances than not they have proven to be correct. Over the course of my life I have learned to listen to these emotions and instincts and to trust them but this is all virgin territory for me and I'm trying as hard as I possibly can to avoid any missteps. I see separation rushing towards me and I so want to be able to feel that I did everything possible to avoid it. As many people have pointed out to me it's real important to do an outstanding plan A.

Thank you in advance to any of my friends (or anyone else) for your thoughts on this.

Instincts are born and honed out of experience and they can help a person raise his/her awareness of what is happening around him/her when the facts are inconclusive. The problem is not with listening to our instincts but in avoiding the sometimes irresistible temptation of drawing conclusions and acting from them all because we are terrified of not knowing for certain the whole truth of the situation.

The reality is that almost no one is prepared to emotionally deal with the discovery of an affair by one's spouse. Our initial reactions are usually a mixture of shock, fear and anger which many times drive us to actions that are counteproductive to improve the chances of saving/rebuilding the marriage. When a BS chooses to faithfully implement Plan A/Plan B, he/she should be aware that emotional detachment is the key to healthily recover from the affair no matter what the outcome of the marriage turns out to be. How does one attain emotional detachment? By making peace with the truth that we cannot control others, including our spouse. By making peace with the truth that the marriage, as we knew it, is over and that it may/may not be possible to create a new happier/healthier from the ground up. By making peace with the truth that only actions from the WS, and nothing else, are indicative of his/her true intentions. By making peace with the truth that personal and marital recoveries for both BS and WS could take up to 2 or more years. See how all of these have 'By making peace with' as their common denominator? It should since only a peaceful person has a true chance of making wise and informative decisions that he/she can live regardless of the outcome.

TMCM

And if you want an example of emotional detachment ['making peace with...'], you have to look no further than Pops own words to you on the other thread:


A FWS is much more afraid of a peaceful BS willing to let him/her go for good than a panicky, needy BS.

TMCM

Campdog--

I have hesitated to respond to this thread because I don't have experience with an affair. But I do have experience with childhood rape, and I've seen you mention several times that this is something your wife is just now beginning to deal with. If it can be at all helpful to you, I'd like to share some of how my experience has affected my behavior towards my husband. I was raped by an uncle for four years, starting when I was four years old. I only remembered the full extent of the abuse four years ago, after nine years of marriage. I have worked very hard to heal as much as possible (and I do believe a full and complete recovery is possible). But I have been shocked to realize how completely the rapes influenced the way I perceived my husband, and therefore, the way I treated him. I have seen you mention some things about your wife's treatment of you, and it makes me wonder if something similar could be going on with her.

Looking back now, I realize that as soon as we became engaged, I began to perceive my husband as an abuser. I did not recognize this at the time, it was very much a subconscious shift. But because we were getting married, he would become someone who had constant access to me, which, because of my experiences, made him an abuser. The very fact that he wanted to have SF with me and expected to, made him a monster in my eyes. So, I now realize that he was just being a normal and loving husband, but my perceptions had been warped because of the abuse I experienced when I was young. I can see how for someone with this perception, an affair would feel safe, because it's optional, not mandatory as with a marriage. I have no idea if this has been true for your wife, I only offer it as a possiblity because of what I have come to understand about myself. (And I am certainly not condoning the affair, only trying to help answer the "why?" questions you have asked.)

You mentioned that you are in counseling. I hope the counselor is helping you both understand how pervasive the effects of childhood rape are. When we started counseling, I thought our counselor was over-doing it by focusing so much on the abuse. But over time I began to see how much of my hurtful behavior in our marriage really did stem from how I perceived men in general, and my husband in particular. Again, it had nothing to do with his behavior, because he actually is a very kind and gentle man. Now that I have released that perception of him, I feel very safe with him, and very happy about SF in our marriage. This could only come about after much intense healing work surrounding the abuse.

I did leave him, twice, and started to divorce him at one point, but we have been healing together now for two years. He has been told that most men wouldn't still be here after what he has gone through in our marriage. I hope I don't offend by posting even though I don't have experience with infidelity. It's just that some of your descriptions of your wife's behavior reminded me so much of things I have done that I thought I could offer some insight.

One last thought I just remembered. I think you asked at one point how your wife could live with you while conducting the affair. It's very possible that she automatically dissociates (disconnects from her feelings). I have been learning to re-connect, but I have spent much of my life disconnected from my feelings. It's automatic for me, because I had to do it so much to survive my childhood. My counselor started pointing out to me how anytime an uncomfortable topic came up during a session, I was suddenly "gone". She even taught my husband to recognize it, so he could help me when I did it at home. He has learned to touch my arm and call me by name, particularly during SF. Again, not to condone or justify what she was doing, only to offer a possible explanation.

I hope your wife is able to heal enough to know how blessed she is to have a husband who loves her so much. Even more importantly, I hope she can get to the point where she can feel that love, allow it into her heart, and then express her love in return.

With wishes for healing and recovery for both of you,
KathCA

Offend? Kath, your words and actions have given me hope and a reason to go on at precisely the time I needed it most. I have been thinking that I was fast approaching the point where I would abandon my efforts to save my relationship with my wife and leave. My strength and resolve have been eroded by the lack of reponse from my wife and I have been distraught over what I should do.

I know you registered solely for the purpose of telling me the things you told me. I know how terrible your experience was and how it changed your life. I can only guess at the guts it took to write about such things to a stranger. You did those things to help me and what's more you did those things NOW. This is not an accident. Yet again I see His awesome hand moving to fold me in His arms when I most needed comfort and a way to see my path. He made you one of his arms Kath, and in so doing He showed his love and faith in you. I don't know if you share in my belief but know that however you feel you have performed an incredible kindness. No offense taken Ma'am, I'm typing this through tears of joy and wonder.

What you speak about hits the mark concerning my wife. I was there when she recovered her memories and I saw her go to pieces. We had one joint counseling session where she spoke of what her experience had done to her and the pain was so real and palpable that it filled the room. Our counselor was even moved to tears and he later told us that it was the first time in 20 years he had broken his rule of not crying during a session. How can I leave a woman I love so much who is in such pain? What would it say about me to focus solely on my own pain and needs when they are so small compared to the burden my beloved is carrying? I already knew these things but was losing sight of them. Your words cleared away the vines and showed me my way through this dark forest. There will be time for me to tend to my wounds and heal. For now I must tend to the wounds of the woman I love and pray that I have what I need within me. I think I do, I pray that I do.

Thank you Lord. Thank you Kath.

Campdog--

Thank you for letting me know how much my post helped you. I knew I was supposed to write it, but I was still very nervous. I actually registered a week ago because I felt so strongly I needed to speak to you, but I kept putting it off. Last night, I knew it was time and I couldn't delay any longer. Hearing that the timing was right means a lot and strengthens my faith that God is watching over all of us.

I just came across your other thread about considering Plan B, and another thought jumped out at me. I know that for 28 years, I avoided accessing the core of the pain inside me. I worked so hard to avoid it that I still amaze myself with what I was able to go through and still "smile" to the world. Even after accessing the memories, I still resisted fully feeling the pain for two more years. It was only when my fourth baby was stillborn 2 1/2 years ago that I finally hit rock-bottom. It was only then that I fully accessed the pain that was deep inside me, and it was only then that my heart could be opened to feel God's love for me, my husband's love for me, and my children's love for me. I don't know if everyone with pain locked deep inside has to be forced to access it, but I suspect that's why we all come up against heartbreak sooner or later. It's like we have to be humbled to the very dust before we will release the pain we've been suppressing. Maybe at some point you will need to separate from your wife, but if that were to happen, perhaps that would be her "rock-bottom" and would serve as the catalyst she needs to really heal? One of the best things my husband did was to firmly stop allowing me to mistreat him. He was able to maintain compassion for the pain I was in, but not allow the mistreatment. I still marvel that he was willing to do it, and that he did it.

I said in my other post that I do believe complete healing is possible, even from something as horrendous as being raped as a child. The joy I feel in my life now, as a wife, as a mother and as a person who is happy to be alive (for the first time) still amazes me. I want to offer that hope and encouragement, because I never thought I could have the happiness in my marriage and in my life that I have now, and I know my husband often wondered if he'd ever wake up from the nightmare we were living.

With the utmost respect for the tremendous work you're doing,
KathCA

Kath, I hope you read this thread at least one more time. I'm glad you said what you did about God watching over us. He heard you and has used you again to do His work. I was so moved by what you wrote that I told my wife about it. She asked if she could read your posts and I saw her weeping softly as she was doing so. What you said touched something inside her and she asked me how she could write something here! This is from someone who cannot express herself to me about what happened to her regarding either her rape or her affair.

I helped her register from around the corner so that I wouldn't see her log-in name. I think she would benefit greatly from coming here and I didn't want to inhibit her from expressing her true feelings by thinking I was reading her words. She asked me what to do and I told her General Questions was probably the best place to start. I know she posted something but I haven't looked for it. I wanted you to know that in reaching out to me you have also helped someone who is hurting very deeply to take a first baby step towards healing. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Campdog--

Yep, still here! I'm sure I'll be coming to this web site for a while. Dr. Harley's work is amazing. I feel like we're building our marriage from scratch, and we need all the help we can get!

Thank you for letting me know I helped. Our exchange has helped me, too. It's very healing to feel like I've learned some things from my experiences, and that there's something I can offer to others.

Thanks for letting me know your wife is posting. I'll try to find her and offer whatever support I can.


KathCA

I'm glad you got something in return for your kindness Kath. I am still using your words for comfort and strength when my own feelings of pain try to overwhelm me. I told my counselor about your post coming just when I needed it most and broke down crying in the safety of his office. It was theraputic to let it out full strength and not in stifled sobs like I do at home. So you continue to help a stranger in need.

Ma'am I would like to talk further with you about your experience and the way it affects your relationship with your spouse. I have haunted the websites dealing with this terrible thing but it's tough to understand and I feel you have come here for a reason. This particular thread is apparently popular, I guess it's the title, though few actually post. I know how incredibly hard it must be for you to discuss your feelings especially with a stranger and a man to boot. I don't think this thread is the place to do it assuming you are willing.

If you are agreeable I would like to share further but please don't feel obligated or think I will be disappointed if you cannot. That much at least I think I DO understand. If you start a thread in another less habitated part of this site I'll find it and respond. I know just how much I am asking of you and if it's too much please know that you have already done me more good than I have words to express and I don't want you to pay a price of old pain or discomfort on my account. You have already done more than anyone could ask.

I know God blesses you and I have put you in a special part of my own prayer list. I pray that your prayers will be answered in the way you want.

Hi, Campdog--

Of course I'd be happy to continue our discussion. I don't have a problem being on this thread. I'm sure it is the title that makes it popular, that's what caught my attention!

I feel comfortable discussing my experience, and it actually isn't painful for me. What was hard about initially posting was not knowing how you would take it. But actually, I welcome the chance to talk about it. I mean, how many places IRL do I get to share these kinds of things? It's such a big part of me, and yet it's just not socially appropriate to bring it up all the time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Plus, to protect my husband's privacy with our friends and family, I really can't ever discuss how fully our marriage has suffered because of it. Really, who wants to hear that much about our sex life, anyway?

So, if this thread's okay with you, go ahead and ask whatever's on your mind. I will do my best to answer anything I have experience with. Maybe it will help other people, too?

And, thankfully, it doesn't bother me to discuss it with a man, either. A few years ago, maybe. But I'm to the point that men don't automatically make me uncomfortable. That's taken three decades, but it feels good to be at that point. Never knew all the good friends I was missing out on! Besides, no one could read this thread without understanding what a kind person you are, CD. Please know that I do feel comfortable, and am more than happy to continue discussing. Thank you for asking.

And thank you for the prayers. My road's still bumpy enough that I definitely welcome them! Please know that I am also praying for you and your family.

Thank you Kath, your input means a lot to me. I'd like to ask a few questions but since this would be a sort of digression I started a new thread on General Questions. I'm using this thread as a sort of online journal to be printed out and kept for the future, come what may. Also, I think you're right that the title of this thread grabs attention and I really want to filter those lurkers who just read for prurient interest reasons. This issue is very important to me and I know it's emotionally loaded for you as well.

General Questions sees a LOT of traffic and threads that are not super active get pushed back quickly. It will be as close to a two party discussion as practicle but I called it "Sexual abuse issues effecting the Affair" so that others might join in or take help from our words. Sorry it took me so long to answer you back but it's sometimes difficult to come here. There's SO much pain in this place, both mine and others, that I have to recharge my batteries sometimes. I hope you're still with me and you remain in my prayers.

Just a quick note to say that I will be traveling for the next few weeks and won't be posting. I'm NOT dropping out and I'll try to grab an internet connection when I can. Good luck and God's blessings to you all. You will be in my thoughts and in my prayers.

-camp