LL -

I never thought I would betray my vows. Never. I wasn't even interested in another man. But one thing led to another, and before I knew it, it happened.

I don't blame my friend, I blame myself for getting into this position. It started out as a charity event at the yacht club, then moved to his boat with friends, then right into his bed. Yikes!

I'm still not divorced, so am avoiding all contact with any men. But after I get divorced, I'm going to be very careful.

Gnome,

I agree, boundaries can change as a relationship progresses,
so don't be afraid to move them further out right now.

Instead of allowing yourself to be alone with someone in your home or their home, keep things out in the public eye.

seriously, your experience just re-confirms that Harley's emotional needs are much more powerful than religious scripture or beliefs, and that emotional needs transcend religion in inter personal relationships.

now, you can make mistakes, and you can correct mistakes, or you can keep mistakes. . . its all up to you. . .

wiftty

TR,

I've been trying to convince myself that if I do end up PG, that it's a gift from God (given that the more I read, I do think my chances are much less than 25-30%). But those are just "odds". They could be .01% and I could be that lucky person. Someone has to be. Anyway, I haven't convinced myself yet, so this will be the obvious struggle for the week, combined with a splitting headache I'm getting from a cold I have that is settling in my sinuses. And I don't dare take Advil because I don't know my 'status'.

I would try and get in to a Dr. tomorrow, but it's pointless on the PG front. If I wait until say Wed/Thurs, there might be a fair chance they could run the blood test and settle things for me.



And yes, I think this would be the best thing for me to do. It's probably not practical to only meet in public forever, and it's costly as well (it's a lot cheaper to go to someone's house and snack and watch a movie on TV than it is to go out to dinner, to movies, mini-golf, etc.) My budget is rather tight (which is another very scary issue should a child be involved). But yes, not going to their home will have to be high on my list if I get to continue dating.

MOS,

I agree--I'm bad with boundaries. I'm just not sure how stopping all dating (if I'm fortunate enough to escape my immediate fears) will help me get better with them. Granted, it will protect me, because if you're not around something, it can't hurt you. But I need to learn HOW to act around people.

Gnome,

Agreed--I'm going to have to push back some boundaries. It's still hard for me to determine what they are--I hate saying "Okay, I'll do nothing but hold someone's hand until I'm married." That's a little boring. But from much more, things can take off in a hurry if one partner is good at pushing things. Guess that's the trick--find someone who doesn't push.

Believer,

I know, you understand what I'm saying about how it happened.

Wifty,



Emotional needs are very, very powerful. Along with other needs that I find are high on my "must have" list, the emotional need for affection is up there pretty high. And probably since it was a need that was rarely met in my marriage (to clarify, the SF part my ex did meet on a semi-regular basis until our latter years, but the emotional part--the hugging, cuddling, kissing, wasn't there). On a side note, the more I analyze my ex, the more I see he had huge fears of emotional intimacy. I'm guessing that's why he saw other people throughout our dating years and had 2 affairs after we were married, and why he turned to porn for his fulfillment. If he turned to me, he'd might have to open up emotionally. To be brutally honest, it was rare when we had SF that he kissed me. I've been without anything at all for almost 18 months now (until I started dating recently), and when I started getting the things I craved for so long, the need went on overdrive.

However, I do still hold that, for me, shared spiritual beliefs trump all else, because if Guy #2 and I had shared the same spiritual beliefs and goals, we might have had the strength to stop ourselves from entering into this situation, even if it was an emotional need for both of us.

If you share beliefs, the strong person can often be there to hold the weak one up, and vice versa. Sure, there are times when both get weak, but the odds would be better.

LL

LL -

It wouldn't be any better if you both shared beliefs. Forget about the strong one holding the weak on up when it comes to abstaining.

You (and me too) need to stay out of situations that could lead to jumping in the sack.

LL..However, I do still hold that, for me, shared spiritual beliefs trump all else, because if Guy #2 and I had shared the same spiritual beliefs and goals, we might have had the strength to stop ourselves from entering into this situation, even if it was an emotional need for both of us.

If you share beliefs, the strong person can often be there to hold the weak one up, and vice versa. Sure, there are times when both get weak, but the odds would be better.

Knight....Exactly, now just put that into practice. Of course one must be aware some talk, but don't do the walk. I disagree wifty, EN's are not more powerful than spiritual beliefs...if you actually act on your beliefs. LL problem is she let herself get "drunk" (in a manner of speaking), so violated her beliefs in favor of feeding her EN's.... EN's can be met in healthy and unhealthy ways...one must choose more wisely when getting them met.

Believer, true, don't depend on anyone thing, being safe involves a set of interlocking boundaries, one if breached can cause a domino effect.

first, have a committment to a principle...pre-marital sex...ok, or not ok.

second, quickly ascertain a dating prospects position on this, it is a deal-breaker, don't date anyone who believes differently

third, don't (at least for a time, eventually you must take risks with intimacy, is part of growing...) place yourself in seductive circumstances

fourth, pray together for guidance and strength in the developing relationship, including maintaining sexual boundaries

fifth, discuss and agree to specific physical boundaries, so both know when supposed to stop. and hold each other accountable if someone is misbehaving...it is natural to want to have physical contact, and a healthy part of relationship growth...but without any specific boundary, is easier to get lost in the moment and perhaps lose control.

Good boundaries are no direct genital contact, and keep your clothes on, these are easily recognized boundaries, and pretty much short-circuit any slippery slope to intercourse.

It is not helpful to be paranoid, or only date in crowds, never embrace or romantically kiss.... it is ok to look not only to ourself, but our partner to help with keeping the boundaries (for lots of reasons I won't go into now, but is about vulnerability and building trust..both essential to a successful relationship, and must be discerned, experienced..which means taking some risk).

Ultimately you do depend on yourself, but ALSO your judgement in selecting a safe parnter. LL knew she was selecting an unsafe man, put herself in harmsway, and had no sense of intermediate boundaries..she broke three major rules in so doing....which greatly increased the likelihood of disaster...

"The SF was not allowed to finish--I made him stop before that happened."

Ok LL, you made a mistake, but you did catch yourself before things went completely crazy. That does tell me that you are not nearly as bad as you are making yourself out to be.

I just don't think you realized how starved you are for fulfilment of your needs. Unfortunately, there are men who can play you like a violin. I assure you, if I had no morals, I would have much more of a sex life than I do now. Please stop with the guilt, God has already forgiven you & he is really not that surprised.

Pick yourself back up and keep on going. I believe in you.

Boy, things are hoppin' around here! I've been gone all day. Good conversation goin on!

My exBF jokes that women really mean "yes" when they say "no", or that their mind can be changed with a little persuasion. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I wonder how many men really think this way? I really don't think men realize HOW HARD it is for us to make the decision to say "no" sometimes. We are human, and once we decide to say "no", we really mean it, but it's not always an easy decision. DON'T PUSH US! Yeah, it's our own fault for allowing situations to escalate, for being in those situations, for ultimately saying "yes", but it's the man's fault too for pushing, especially if we already said no.

I'm generalizing, cuz I've been there too. It just seems so common.

So, ll, you're human, and you do have to make decisions about your future boundaries and how to handle these circumstances in the future, NOW that you know how you handled THIS one. OK -> trying to get to HOW it happpened, and WHY.... I really can't offer exact advice from personal experience - you have to find what works for YOU. I can't relate at all because I can stop when I flat out want to stop. I just can't understand getting THAT carried away with my emotions, but that's just me, and how I'm wired, I guess. I choose yes when I want, and no when I want. Sometimes it makes "him" mad to say no, even if he tries to "persuade" me. Is that part of it??? You didn't want to make him mad? Or was it to the point that you were honestly carried away and wanted it? Did the thoughts of PG and STD's cross your mind? Your vows to God? Did you push them away? Or just hope to deal with them later? Just trying to understand, (since I'm different) and hopefully, help you understand. You obviously had some wits about you, since you "stopped" him... but why didn't you stop sooner... is it because you didn't want to hurt his feelings?

shared spiritual beliefs may trump all else in deciding whom to marry, however, as far as your emotional control, and your actions, if you allow yourself to believe that now you need spiriutal agreement to save yourself from your own emotions, you are abandoning your ability to stand up for yourself. . .

in simple words, its all mind games with religion and self responsibility. . .

your dating should consist of learning what types of red flags you don't like, and practicing saying "thank but no thank you" as soon as you see them. Without learning how to spot them, and without practicing how to say no. . . you won't get past the dysfunctional marriage material which is 97% of what is left after 40 . . . .

wiftty

Knight,



That is an interesting way of phrasing it, but yes, that's what I did. It had been a long time since I had some of those needs met, and I reached a point and emotions overtook logic and I stopped listening to God. That's sad.

Aslan,

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I only stopped him because the little (you may get PG) voice got so loud I couldn't tune it out. By that time, I'd tuned out God. So, had PG not been a concern, I'm sad to say it would have continued to the end. And any unprotected sex, whether it goes for just a little while or completes is enough to expose a woman to pregnancy.

Faith,

You are a much stronger, more confident person than I am. I wish I were there, but I obviously have lots of growth to do. Based on some things in my past and this experience, I'd guess part of the reason I didn't stop him when he started crossing major lines was that fear of rejection, or of making him feel bad. I have always had an issue with making others feel bad, or hurting their feelings. Again, that's how my ex and my kids have gotten away with as much as they have. I put the feelings of others first, which sounds in theory like a good thing, but can backfire.

But it wasn't that I wasn't enjoying it, too. And when he kept at me and kept at me, and my physical desire and my emotions got so strong, then yes, I reached a point where I wanted it really bad, too, and I quit listening to anything else in my brain (except that little PG voice that never went completely away). And as for stopping him, we both sort of stopped ourselves because the voice got so loud that I started saying, pretty much under my breath because it was all I could muster, "xx, I DON'T want to be PG!". And finally, it was enough to sink through both our very thick skulls.

Wifty,



I don't always have the ability to stand up for myself without leaning on God. (Bear with me--I know you and I don't share beliefs so this will sound really strange to you, but it makes completel sense to me and is how I think.)

If it was all about me and what I could do for me, I wouldn't need God. But I need him, not only for the salvation he gives though Christ, but I need him to guide me so that I don't make a mockery out of my life. When I don't let him guide me, this is what happens. If I follow him, I do a lot better, and I feel a lot better about me.

And this is why, in relationships (or in marriage, more specifically) we are to be "yoked" with other believers. We need each other for strength, so that we don't get pulled away from God by worldly things (like this stupidity I just pulled this week.)

LL

Guy called me tonight, just to chat. I took the conversation down a different path. Now no one best get their hopes up about my telling him off, or demanding an STD test or anything because I didn't do that.

We talked about my fears of PG. Still freaks him out. I told him I figure if I am, he'll change his # and bolt, that it wouldn't bother him. He said that's untrue, that it would bother him, and that's not who he is. Nevertheless, I think we're very clear that he doesn't want a child right now any more than I do.

So we start down the "shared beliefs" road and how that is causing my issues with him. Again, he's honest--he isn't going to change his beliefs, and I'm honest--I don't want him to, because it wouldn't be genuine. We agree he meets my requests for honesty (for the most part), affection and conversation, which I'd rank #2-#4 on my list. But that #1 is a biggie.

So he asks the question I've dreaded: "LL, so why did you even continue to see me if you know I'm not what you're looking for?" (Wow, good question.) The best answer I could come up with--because I feel comfortable with him and enjoyed his company. I reminded him again that I told him from the start I wasn't wanting to commit but was just wanting to go out and do stuff.

So his next question, "Then basically, we should have never crossed any lines of intimacy at all, huh?" (Another good question.) I guess he'd be correct on that. So why did I?

So, in this little messy situation, it's hard to say which one of us stands to get hurt the most. Him, maybe, if I'm not PG, because it appears I've played with him when I didn't intend to at all, or me, if I do end up PG, because he'll bolt (not that I'd consider marrying him anyway), and I'll have trashed my life.

He had one very valid point though: He told me that even if I do have these stated boundaries, that he's confident that sooner or later, be it with him or someone I feel is better suited for me, I will again be faced with the same situation I was faced with this time. His point--wouldn't it make sense to at least be prepared, so that I don't have this to worry about? He's right, I think. Should I get lucky and dodge the bullet (which I'm not convinced I've dodged), I should make it a point to get myself scheduled in the near future for a tubal ligation. I don't want any more kids with anyone. I'm sure of that. At least not any that I have to give birth to.

And I asked him, "So why weren't YOU prepared?" His answer, "LL, I didn't intend for it to go that far either..."

(But because it did, I have zero doubt he'd like to see it go there again, just with protection this time. And I told him, if I escape this unscathed, I'm considering it a good learning experience and I'm going to be very careful about the situations I place myself in.)

But for now, where does this leave me? I'm not sure. I'm still sweatin' bullets because I've had twinges in my lower stomach all day. I don't remember having them normally at this time during the month. But maybe I do and I'm just super-sensitive right now. If I start gagging on my toothbrush (the first sign of PG with both my other kids), I'm checking into a mental institution!

And to complicate this whole sordid story a little bit more, the guy I've been emailing every day now from eastern Iowa would like to meet me Wednesday evening. We were actually going to meet today, but I've been under the weather with some sinus thing, so we decided to give me time to recuperate.

Do I meet him? I am really interested in him--he is very intelligent, yet very down-to-earth. We've had some great email and phone conversations. I'd hate to miss an opportunity that was perhaps being placed before me. He does share my biblical beliefs (not sure about the sex one--haven't discussed that yet). His suggestion in one of today's emails was that perhaps since we both had to miss church this morning, that maybe we should have another of our marathon phone conversations before long and share some scripture.

But what if I meet him, like him, he likes me, and then I have to disappear into thin air because I find out I'm PG by Guy #2. If I don't meet him on Wednesday, I won't have another opportunity for 2 weeks, because he's going on Ragbrai (big Iowa bikeride for anyone unfamiliar) all next week.

I'm just too confused right now. My head aches from the sinus thing and I'm afraid to take anything strong for it on the chance it might harm something that I'm praying isn't even there. UGH!!!

LL

Worrying is energy poorly spent...I speak from experience! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Put your plan in place (get STD test, get PG test in 10 days...wait for results) and distract yourself with other things...

You don't want an ulcer so you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Should things wind up positively (no PG)...WHAT are your boundaries?

Perhaps putting them out here will help "solidify" them for you.

You really sound like a good person who let their hormones get in the way...I know...I am one step behind you in that regard. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Again, what are YOUR boundaries?

Good luck! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

WNB

Wow... LL... clearly I've been away too long... I still have to go back and search to find out how things ended with your H.

I think you are freaking yourself out a little too much. Have faith in the Lord. Trust Jesus. You know darn well you are forgiven for your sins, and that the Lord wants to bless you and your life.

If it turns out that you are pregnant, then that is God's will. You have to trust that He will not give you more than you can handle. And you also know that anything He gives you, you needed to be given.

You are taking too much of this on your own shoulders.

Peace, sis.

J

LL, You are correct, you can be "exposed" to the possibility of pregnancy if there was no ejaculation, however, the probability is nowhere near as great.

I just hate to see you keep beating yourself up. You are a very sweet girl, but you made a mistake. If you are pregnant, so be it, you can deal with it.

For future reference, when I was in college, I had a rule I called the "shoes stay on" rule. In other words, if you never took off your shoes on a date, you were unlikely to get comfortable so things would progress. Unless of course, you keep always your shoes, garter belt & stockings on, but I digress (I hope that amused you, you can use a laugh).

Anyway, just get up, shake yourself off & keep going. I still think you can now conclusively state that big breasts are overrated. Isn't it nice to know your exH was wrong?

Dewt,

If you read this thread again, (unless you've researched the whole messy story through my other posts), the short version:

My ex never did decide to come around. I never did a good Plan B. I sort of did a modified Plan A 'til 8/04 when I could no longer take the fear of what he might do to our family financially (and he'd moved her in with him), and I filed. I figured, hey, he still has 3 months before the DV is final to turn himself around. He chose to keep drinking, continue doing drugs, and eventually proposed to the OW about a week after our DV was final back in November, when he took her on a Paris vacation. They're still together, she's still not DV, and he bought a house in June, so they're settled. And while this isn't the outcome I'd hoped for initially, in hindsight, I believe it was the best thing for me and the kids. The calm has been amazing...until now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

John,

I am trying hard to hang onto that hope that my chances are less because of that, and because I'm almost 40 (which one would think might decrease my fertility). But the other voices keep saying that it would be only fitting that I'd end up pregnant, because that's usually how my life goes. I have the world's worst timing with just about everything in my life. And now, I fugure since there is someone who seems very interesting out there wanting to meet me, it would be my luck that I could have screwed up that chance at a good thing, just like I tend to screw up everything else.

The "shoes on" rule is bad for me, especially in the summer, because I wear flip-flops. They pretty much come off as soon as I hit the door, and I often go barefoot if I'm not going in anywhere. I reserve the garter belt & stockings for cooler weather. (Okay, JOKING!) I probably need to focus on another article of clothing. Heck, shorts would have been a good one.

In all seriousness, I don't really think any of my clothing articles, besides the shoes, need to be coming off with anyone anytime soon. That would eliminate a lot of problems.

As for breast size, I have been pleasantly surprised that it seems to be a non-issue as of yet. I guess that's one good thing that's come out of my dating--it's built my confidence in myself a little in that respect.

LL

Put in some GOOD reflective time as to what you want your boundaries to be and a PLAN to stick with them. It has to be simple, so you can remember them in a hormone-induced craze! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Your situation has got me thinking about what mine should be once I venture out into the "world of singleness".

Soemwhat OT---I can't say it enough...enthusiasm is a FAR greater aphrodisiac that cup size...rant off! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I am sure it will all be fine...don't worry so much and BE PATIENT...you'll have your answers soon enough... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

WNB

Lordslady - Lighten up..... Really - look at it another way - you have tried something new and exciting and decided that it wasn't what you want right now.... And I don't think you have offended anyone - but I wouldn't worry about being pregnant because if you won't do anything about it - then there is nothing that you can change - so you will have to accept ... Dont' fret.... you are gonna make yourself sick... I wanted to say good for you - at least you have learned you are desirable and you can be with someone else... though I know it isn't what you want right now.. but not everyone has to believe everything the same.. I mean the old saying is that opposites attract - different people are what makes the world go around... but my goodness stop condemning yourself and put pregnancy out of your mind - or all of your worrying is gonna make you so nervous that you are gonna skip your next period and give yourself a heart attack to boot... You are only human.... Enjoy....

Just to let you know, I almost fell out of my chair when I read this!! The solution is simple, when on dates, wear combat boots, the kind that lace up almost to the knees.

Just a couple of more comments & I will leave you alone...

1) Stop listening to the little voices in your head. Lots of things are going well now. You have not mentioned any problems with your daughter in months.

2) Be thankful that you have found that not all men are obsessed with breasts. My W is a 38D, but is extremely sexually inhibited and selfish. I would readily exchange her breasts if it would make her more sexually adventurous.

3) I have watched you grow incredibly in the past few months. You have become an incredibly strong woman who is becoming more Godly every day. Don't let this little setback stop you.