Were you simply wanting to resolve it as quickly as possible

yes

or did you have a particular outcome in mind you were inwardly pushing for?

also yes

Hmmm, he says, stroking his beard. (I do have one - but it’s trimmed a lot shorter than 2long’s.)


Now you are talking meta-POJA, i.e. the need to POJA about POJA. LOL.

FWW and I do this to each other a lot. In fact, I can safely say we disagree on when and how quickly decisions need to be made far more often than the decision itself.

I like to let things percolate on the back burner, let things evolve more, timing is everything - more often than not. She wants instant (at least it feels instant) resolution more often than not. It's her type A, Fortune 100 executive mindset, I think.

So how do we arrive at the timing to POJA? It’s become part of our POJA – although I am the first to admit we are still very new at this.

Usually, W makes the initial decision and I get to revisit it after I sit on it for while.

None of this is manipulation, IMO.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

ah-ha!

furthermore .... I could make you so uncomfortable with percolating ... you would resolve this quickly, to my liking.

shtbkt <--- Pep

But can you do that without LBing and while meeting ENs?

And I could rub your nose in your rash ill-considered precipitous decisions 'till the cows come home.

How many times to I get to say, “I told you so!” before it becomes an LB?

That's why we include the timing of when to POJA the decision in our initiation of a POJA. Sometimes I agree (er, enthusiastically, yeah!) to get the decision made. Sometimes I get to gather more data and let the yeast rise before we decide. It’s part of our POJA.

In general, including the timing for POJA as a step in the larger issue seems to be working for us better than what we used to do.

And neither gets to LB/DJ (which would be manipulation IMO) during the process, even if it’s stretched out for a while.

This is a great thread - I know part of my recovery has been learning to not be in control of everything. I would try and control everything in my life, and in order to do that, I because very manipulative without realizing I was.

It's something I remain concious over no matter what the issue is, to make sure my intentions are not because I am trying to get something or to push my POV on someone

Ok ... so back to my question .... how does one recognize that one's so-called "pushing for the greater good" has degraded into manipulation?

So far, *fear* is what stands out to me. When I feel afraid, I am more likely to attempt to manipulate.

I need to recognize some dayum signposts so I KNOW I am headed down the "m" road.

another ah-ha moment*

I might recognize my own manipulations when I feel I am not willing to trust the outcome without my fingerprints all over it.

ie; not trusting in God .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Pep - that is the main reason I fall to being a manipulator without realizing it. It's my need to feel some sort of control.

I have had to learn I have no control, only God does, and only when I have that faith and trust do I seem to stop manipulating.

My manipulating is not lying, unethical like many people think manipulating is, it's saying and doing things just the right way to get an outcome of my desire.

But I too get confused, as now that I am practicing conversation techniques and learning to not react emotionally, I find when I react with thought and not emotionally, I get a better response from my H, and his defense doesn't go up...so I start to ensure all my behaviors are like this, does this become manipulation as I am acting a certain way to get a certain reaction that is better for us both?

I belive manipulation like what you are talking about Pep, is the same one I suffer from, the inability to not have control over something...and it may be really small, but I don't trust anyone but myself...when I should be only trusting God.

OK, so now you are getting technical.

Manipulate:
a: to manage or utilize skillfully
b: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
c: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose

Notice that definition a) is not negative. Even the artful connotation of b) is not necessarily negative. But, I realize you want a marker for c).

So check these out:

Dealing With Manipulative People:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing11.html


Introduction to Manipulation Techniques: This one has your very situation in it’s first example - manipulation through time constraints.
http://nlp.snowseed.com/intro_manipulation.htm


How to Manipulate Your Boss, Spouse, Parents and Other Unsuspecting Adults:
http://www.mefford.org/mmm/manipulate_thm.htm


Controlling Behavior:
http://www.web-street.com/thingsarelookinup/Boundaries/Controlling.shtml


Just for starters.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You get me!

But, I realize you want a marker for c).

Yes!

This is helpful. I am feeling enlightenment is within my reach if I can stretch a bit further..... ~~~~~~

I wonder could i be a manipulator.I am the BS my FWH would do anything for me to make up for what he has done.Most of the time i don't even ask and he will do anything for me.I'm not talking about spending money on me either.After reading here,i question my actions.I in no way want to a manipultor.
#1mom

Well?

Being confused is a pretty good indication you have some work to do .... somewhere... so look around and ask yourself questions.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Pep.

Good query.

Let me add some more to ponder, and later tonight I will try to tell you about manipulation in practice, from a users perspective.

A partial definition of maneuver is: an action taken to gain a tactical end b : an adroit and clever management of affairs often using trickery and deception

A partial definition of manipulate is: a : to manage or utilize skillfully b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage c: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose

Tell me what the difference between manipulate and maneuver is.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Gimble

From where I am sitting ... looks like the difference is fairly thin .. like a whisker.

Is it possible to teeder and balance on the whisker?

From my own, ongoing, step four -

The Four M's: martyrdom, managing, manipulating and mothering.

Bad manipulation has characteristics of all four M’s, IMO.

Approach your inventory with love kindness, honesty and balance.

It takes courage, God, self-love, friends and sponsors to do this right.

It is like peeling an onion.

stings and stinks and makes me cry ???

yes, that was my exact experience this AM ... guess who helped me out? The fabulous MR PEP <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Love of .... ?