Trying to 4th step myself a little bit here.

make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves

I bumped back to the top a post I started about how to recognize when we are falling prey to a manipulator.....

Was doing some HARD moral inventory today ... came up with a question for myself that I could not answer right away.

Asking for help.

How does one recognize when one is, in fact, using manipulation to get something from another?

How do I recognize in myself when I am using someone's weaknesses of guilt or obsession ... to bend their will toward mine?

If I am hitting on someone's guilty, vain or frightened spots as a means of coercion .... how can I recognize that I am being a manipulator?

Wow I like that question. I second the question! Mind if I camp here and learn?

pep, when i read the post you bumped up, that exact same question came to mind. am i a manipulator??

i know i don't conciously try to be one but i do wonder if some of my actions are.

i know i have worked very hard at not manipulating with my emotions. specifically falling into beating up on myself as a way to get my husband to try to build me up.

i'm guessing there may be other old habits of mine that try to manipulate him.

it's very confusing!!!

I can chime in on this since I *have* recognized times that I was manipulating the situation. At the very end of my M here with the STBXH and I can look back and see clearly there were times that I did attenpt to manipulate the sitch to meet my needs, even if it were to be only in a very shallow and minimalist way.

I wanted something, anything from STBXH that showed me he still cared that I was willing to take scraps and crumbs, and the grovel for more. What a sad testament to my co-dependency on him that I was willing to take him back and rebuild after a 3rd, 4th, even 5th A!!

Don't get me wrong, I completely and totally believe in M and hope to get to try it again some day, but this M has been near death for a long time due to neglect and outright abuse. I manipulated him the only way I knew how to get what I so desperately thought I needed. I played on his emotions, his guilt, his minimal sense of right and wrong....

After awhile it all stopped working and I evolved tot he point where I realized that this relationship was very unhealthy for us both, toxic.

Moving on, moving forward, and pray that I am never in such a place as that again.

Pep

I can't believe the timing of this.

I'm right there.

Your Peck thread got me thinking about my deeply uncomfortable relationship with my mother. And it came to me suddenly that Mum manipulates others by shaming their conscience. She decides for you how you 'ought' to feel about something, and then she makes you ashamed of not feeling it. It's a nasty trick. It works.

And I do it too.

I do it when I'm pressured, desperate, panicking.

I knew all my life that there was something about my mother that repulsed me and I wanted SO much not to be like her. I just couldn't figure out exactly what the something was.

Now I know. I can work on avoiding it.

When am I being manipulative? I think it's when I feel fear of the other not choosing my choice. But I'll have to think about it.

This is such a big step for me.

TogetherAlone

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

and here I thought I might be struggling with this all by myself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am hoping Gimble reads this ... and BrambleRose too. And Mel. And anyone else familiar with the 12 steps.

I'd say if you are using anything less than complete honesty to get what you want from another person, you are manipulating them.
Mulan

Well, define manipulation. Or rather, identify it case by case.

I remember a thread on this from a year ago or so. Not all manipulation is bad. Not all manipulation is irrelevant.

In fact, getting someone to do something that needs to be done is always manipulation at it's core.

So, good manipulation needs to be distinguished from bad manipulations. It's a continuum. Where on the spectrum is the manipulation in question?

Just always give the subject of the manipulation their final choice in the matter.

Informed consent.

NB: This is right out of my Al Anon daily reflections book.

TA.... You may have provided me with the first clue! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I do it when I'm pressured, desperate, panicking.

Thanks.

I disagree.... I feel skilled enough to manipulate using complete honesty!

***I disagree.... I feel skilled enough to manipulate using complete honesty!***

Well, in that case I have a LOT of work to do!
LOL
Mulan

"I feel skilled enough to manipulate using complete honesty."

If total honesty is used, including no omissions (i.e. informed consent) is it manipulation or convincing by rational argument?

I think intent is relevant here.

i'm so confussed!!!!

Here's something to consider. Manipulation is one of the first things you ever learned to do without being taught by someone. It was done through self-discovery as an infant when your parents would give you what you wanted to make you stop crying.

In the beggining you would cry for obvious reasons... hungry, wet, tired, etc. But as time went on you learned that when you would cry things would happen your way. Soon you started to do these for you own personal gain and if you didn't then BEHOLD... the temper tantram. Though most parents would catch on to your game, it was still something you tried.

One of the less attractive parts of human nature. I think for most people it comes naturally to manipulate people unethically. Fortunately most people constantly struggle against that tendency, and usually succeed.

Still it's a tricky question, yes? What makes it 'manipulation'? Is the distinction whether the other person has been informed to the appropriate exent vs. kept in the dark? One of the tricky bits is what's 'appropriate' in the given situation.

Consider a sales person. Gotta make the sale - which involves manipulation - but also gotta be ethical if he wants to be able to live with himself.

If your intent to get something you want, for whatever reasons, honestly and above board then manipulation = rational argument.

IMO

OK ... but hear me out ....

Over the last 2 days we came up against an issue that needs to be POJA'd between us. (what it is, doesn't matter as much as the principles at hand)

My idea ... no! make that my need .... was to POJA this as quickly as possible. The problem just hanging out there unresolved was making me nutz.

My H did not need to POJA this quickly. In fact, he felt pressured by my need to get this resolved ASAP.

I found myself thinking up ways to more or less manipulate him into desiring to get this decision behind us quickly as well.

See?

Manipulation is not having a discussion or making a straightforward request. It is done in many different ways (guilt, pity, etc) and is a sly and creative way for unhealthy individuals to try to get what they want.

Healthy people ask for what they want. They ask with the knowledge and ability to accept that they may be turned down or things may not go just exactly like they want.

Healthy people do not try to control outcomes. (hi Bramblerose <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

Susan

Were you simply wanting to resolve it as quickly as possible

or did you have a particular outcome in mind you were inwardly pushing for?

To me resolving something quickly is not the manipulation as much as seeking a desired outcome.

Susan

Were you simply wanting to resolve it as quickly as possible

yes

or did you have a particular outcome in mind you were inwardly pushing for?

also yes

Hmmm, he says, stroking his beard. (I do have one - but it’s trimmed a lot shorter than 2long’s.)


Now you are talking meta-POJA, i.e. the need to POJA about POJA. LOL.

FWW and I do this to each other a lot. In fact, I can safely say we disagree on when and how quickly decisions need to be made far more often than the decision itself.

I like to let things percolate on the back burner, let things evolve more, timing is everything - more often than not. She wants instant (at least it feels instant) resolution more often than not. It's her type A, Fortune 100 executive mindset, I think.

So how do we arrive at the timing to POJA? It’s become part of our POJA – although I am the first to admit we are still very new at this.

Usually, W makes the initial decision and I get to revisit it after I sit on it for while.

None of this is manipulation, IMO.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

ah-ha!

furthermore .... I could make you so uncomfortable with percolating ... you would resolve this quickly, to my liking.

shtbkt <--- Pep

But can you do that without LBing and while meeting ENs?

And I could rub your nose in your rash ill-considered precipitous decisions 'till the cows come home.

How many times to I get to say, “I told you so!” before it becomes an LB?

That's why we include the timing of when to POJA the decision in our initiation of a POJA. Sometimes I agree (er, enthusiastically, yeah!) to get the decision made. Sometimes I get to gather more data and let the yeast rise before we decide. It’s part of our POJA.

In general, including the timing for POJA as a step in the larger issue seems to be working for us better than what we used to do.

And neither gets to LB/DJ (which would be manipulation IMO) during the process, even if it’s stretched out for a while.

This is a great thread - I know part of my recovery has been learning to not be in control of everything. I would try and control everything in my life, and in order to do that, I because very manipulative without realizing I was.

It's something I remain concious over no matter what the issue is, to make sure my intentions are not because I am trying to get something or to push my POV on someone

Ok ... so back to my question .... how does one recognize that one's so-called "pushing for the greater good" has degraded into manipulation?

So far, *fear* is what stands out to me. When I feel afraid, I am more likely to attempt to manipulate.

I need to recognize some dayum signposts so I KNOW I am headed down the "m" road.

another ah-ha moment*

I might recognize my own manipulations when I feel I am not willing to trust the outcome without my fingerprints all over it.

ie; not trusting in God .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Pep - that is the main reason I fall to being a manipulator without realizing it. It's my need to feel some sort of control.

I have had to learn I have no control, only God does, and only when I have that faith and trust do I seem to stop manipulating.

My manipulating is not lying, unethical like many people think manipulating is, it's saying and doing things just the right way to get an outcome of my desire.

But I too get confused, as now that I am practicing conversation techniques and learning to not react emotionally, I find when I react with thought and not emotionally, I get a better response from my H, and his defense doesn't go up...so I start to ensure all my behaviors are like this, does this become manipulation as I am acting a certain way to get a certain reaction that is better for us both?

I belive manipulation like what you are talking about Pep, is the same one I suffer from, the inability to not have control over something...and it may be really small, but I don't trust anyone but myself...when I should be only trusting God.

OK, so now you are getting technical.

Manipulate:
a: to manage or utilize skillfully
b: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
c: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose

Notice that definition a) is not negative. Even the artful connotation of b) is not necessarily negative. But, I realize you want a marker for c).

So check these out:

Dealing With Manipulative People:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing11.html


Introduction to Manipulation Techniques: This one has your very situation in it’s first example - manipulation through time constraints.
http://nlp.snowseed.com/intro_manipulation.htm


How to Manipulate Your Boss, Spouse, Parents and Other Unsuspecting Adults:
http://www.mefford.org/mmm/manipulate_thm.htm


Controlling Behavior:
http://www.web-street.com/thingsarelookinup/Boundaries/Controlling.shtml


Just for starters.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You get me!

But, I realize you want a marker for c).

Yes!

This is helpful. I am feeling enlightenment is within my reach if I can stretch a bit further..... ~~~~~~

I wonder could i be a manipulator.I am the BS my FWH would do anything for me to make up for what he has done.Most of the time i don't even ask and he will do anything for me.I'm not talking about spending money on me either.After reading here,i question my actions.I in no way want to a manipultor.
#1mom

Well?

Being confused is a pretty good indication you have some work to do .... somewhere... so look around and ask yourself questions.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Pep.

Good query.

Let me add some more to ponder, and later tonight I will try to tell you about manipulation in practice, from a users perspective.

A partial definition of maneuver is: an action taken to gain a tactical end b : an adroit and clever management of affairs often using trickery and deception

A partial definition of manipulate is: a : to manage or utilize skillfully b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage c: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose

Tell me what the difference between manipulate and maneuver is.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Gimble

From where I am sitting ... looks like the difference is fairly thin .. like a whisker.

Is it possible to teeder and balance on the whisker?

From my own, ongoing, step four -

The Four M's: martyrdom, managing, manipulating and mothering.

Bad manipulation has characteristics of all four M’s, IMO.

Approach your inventory with love kindness, honesty and balance.

It takes courage, God, self-love, friends and sponsors to do this right.

It is like peeling an onion.

stings and stinks and makes me cry ???

yes, that was my exact experience this AM ... guess who helped me out? The fabulous MR PEP <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Love of .... ?

I love onions, ooh la la.

And it has layer after layer. In fact, moral inventory is all layer upon layer.

Peel
Examine (smell, cry, wipe your eyes, season with, taste)
Repeat

YOUR inventory, so I hope it is love of self.

On the 4th step inventory it is easy to beat yourself up.

Aphelion, I LOVE the way you said that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, love of self. I type too fast.

I am not going to beat myself up ... but I am going to be fearless. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Useful reference, for me:

Paths To Recovery - Al-Anon's Steps, Traditions and Concepts.

An Al- Anon Family Groups Publication (B-24).

Have you figured out why you feel the situation is urgent...i.e. what is the worst thing that can happen if you delay?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

moral lazyness is so unattractive, doncha think?

For me: Courage to Change, One Day at a Time and Hope for Today

Moral lazyness? Define moral lazyness?

Suz .... actually, the situation HAS been resolved to both of our satisfaction <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I went on a walk this AM (7 miles, thank you very much) ... and I listened to the Focus On Family program you emailed me about ... and it triggered my anxiety ... and triggered my guilt ... and I was obsessed with making something work ON MY TIMELINE ... and during the walk I began to see how desperate I was feeling .. and how UGLY my thoughts about Mr. Pep were becoming ...

and I vowed that when I got home, I would open the AA 12-step book and WORK IT BABY...

and I cried and I got it all out ... and the most gentle thing happened ... it all opened up WITHOUT MY FORCE <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

and I was stunned at how I nearly derailed the answer by my own anxious hands....

and I know there is a lesson here for me and I am determined to peel my onion to find the life lesson. The DEEPER life lesson. I am ready for the hard core tuff stuff.

It's a good thing Bramblerose is not here. I just typed out what I thought her response would be to this, and then I erased it because I want to see her response.

Peel your onion and use it.

Takes lots of courageous work.

But burying it just makes it sprout and grow more onions.

Demanding/expecting instant results without required pain.

THIS is what really killed me !!!!

I could feel myself starting to make ugly excuses to justify doing something manipulative.

Hideous!

So instead you sat him down and said "you know, I've been in a struggle today. And this is what I have been feeling....... And this is what I really think should be done...and FAST too. Now help me. What do you think Mr. Pep?"

You revisited the past...put him back to who he WAS and not WHO he is today?

YES, I did.

This broadcast...these people's parents were NEVER in recovery.

How did you justify throwing all of his recovery out the window?

Not exactly, kind of.

I came in and said ...

"May I borrow your 12 step book?"

"May I read aloud from your book?"

... and of course the tears began while reading ... and I collapsed under the weight of my own grief ... and my husband was gracious ... and responded in a way he would never have responded to my plan of manipulation .... *sniff*

In other words... Suz ... I shared my weakness with him, and he opened up and made things very easily resolved.


Interesting..

Is Plan A, or Plan B, for that matter not a intentional series of manipulations to induce your WS back into connecting with a BS?

Remember what your parents told you about 1st impressions? If you paid attention to what they told you, and followed through with your very best foot forward, is that not manipulation?

When the car salesman tells you the car will start, run and make you feel like a million bucks when you drive it, is that not manipulation?

When your pastor gives a fiery sermon, and warns you of the woes of sin, is that not manipulation?

We are all doing this every day... some with honorable intentions, some not, and most of us somewhere in-between.

I think, part of the answer to your question, is that when you are manipulative of someone else, for your own gain, and at the expense of another, however subtle, then your actions are in need of reexamination.

If your choice of words or actions to convince another to "see things" your way are honorable, and at no other's expense, then that manipulation is likewise honorable.

I think... therefore I am. I am, therefore I manipulate.

Best wishes,
SD

He brought you back to reality...

The reality that he is the man he is today and not the sick man you decided to revisit.

The reality that I lowered my guard and showed him a piece of me that I am not so proud of ... and he loved me more.

PS ... you've got mail.

Often when I share my weakness - straight, no manipulation - he withdraws, feels manipulated, protests. My words make him feel something, and he doesn't like that.

Doesn't make me want to share, frankly. So is he manipulating me?

Hmm, this is definitely food for thought.
Here's my list.

I manipulate when I:

- assume others are not capable of doing things for themselves or truthfully speaking up for what they want

ie they 'need' me to 'help' them do what I 'know' they really want.

- give 'gifts' that are not really gifts

ie they will now feel obligated to 'give' me what I want.

- pretend to be happier with a situation than I am

ie the other will now think I am a wonderfully carefree person who happens to like what they like and will now want to 'give' me what I want.

Exactly, manipulation can and is used for good as well as bad.

As parents we manipulate our children. For instance when my daughter says something nasty to me, I go to her, hug her, and say "oh honey you must really be in pain to say something so hurtful". I am knowingly manipulating her. One I know she needs a hug, two I want her to examine her feelings closely when she behaves like that and three it lightens both our moods and we have a good time together after that.

I could also manipulate her with ill intent using guilt. This would be bad manipulation, so I am extremely careful about this.

Did he have a parent who controlled and manipulated partly using guilt, so now he sees it even when it isn't there? Is he at all aware of this possibility?

I'm not sure whether this is manipulation or just an unwillingness to examine himself.

My H has something similar at times. It usually takes a day or two of rumination on his part, and in the end he resolves it.
Do you keep sharing anyway?

aaah.

Plan A and Plan B are NOT manipulation.

Oh?

Gotta go out... looking forward to any replies...

SD

Yes, Smur, it occurs to me he did. He had two parents who worked hard at avoiding emotional contact of any kind, with anyone. How do you make a kid avoid emotional contact with hs own parents? Reward him for 'avoiding' behaviour, punish him for 'looking'. He's probably learned that a Good Girl doesn't want to be looked at, and he's a Bad Boy if he looks.


Yes. I'm teaching myself not to be hurt or deterred by his reaction.

Expectations are premeditated resentments. Sounds like you experienced a dose of that today.

I suspect that you confused expectations with needs and were about to make attempt to ensure (control the outcome) that your expectation was met.

How do I know if I am being manipulative?

Am I feeling anxious and fearful (out of control) about an outcome?

What are my motives?

First and foremost:

Am I unwilling to consider any other outcome than mine?

Am I expecting a specific outcome?

Am I fearful of alternative outcomes?

If I am detached and submitted, I can communicate my needs (not expectations!) in a clear, non lovebusting manner, avoiding selfilsh demands, disrespectful judgements and angry outbursts.

I put my trust in God that if I do my part, He will do his part. And I trust that His imagination is way cooler and bigger than mine. So I am open to the thought of alternatives that I may not have considered.

If I am fearful, and willful, I feel entitled to give into the urge bully and manipulate my spouse into doing what I want. (God?? Who's that? Nevermind, WHO CARES!?)

If I am untrusting and disrespectful, not only to God, but to my spouse (or relative, or friend, or coworker) because I feel that my opinions are right and therefore more important - I will easily feel entitled and justified in taking dishonest action to manipulate (deny my spouse a respectful choice).

And for the record, honesty, with impure motives, is not honesty.

And one more thing. Pepperband, the Big Book is a wonderful book. However, the Big Book is written by alcoholics, to alcoholics. While in Al Anon, we practice the 12 steps of AA ourselves...it is a very different spiritual approach.

Al Anon has wonderful literature that addresses the unique problem of co-dependency. The daily readers are nice. Personally I prefer ODAT. But my favorite is either Paths to Recovery, or Survival to Recovery. I like How Al-Anon Works too.

As for Plan A and Plan B.

Neither are meant as manipulation.

It is true that Plan A is a negotiation. But plan A is not a manipulation.

The BS in plan A, changes those things about him/herself that led to the deterioration of the marriage. This means that the BS addresses, changes and attempts to repair what was his/her responsiblity.

Acknowledging fault, accepting responisbilty and taking action to correct and to repair is not manipulation.

It is a hopeful offer, to the WS, by words and deeds, letting the WS know that the BS "gets it" and that there is reason to believe that the marriage not only can be fixed, but love and happiness restored.

However, to stay long, in the face of betrayal, is too much for any spouse. Plan B is protection. It says if you choose to cheat, I choose to protect myself from hurt. It leaves the WS freedom to choose the marriage or not - as the BS has removed him/herself from the situation.

The boundary of plan B is not a demand and is not an attempt to control (of course, many do abuse plan B to do just that).

Plan B is a consequence. Not manipulation. It is a refusal of the BS to participate in an adulterous triangle.

I hoped you would mention working the 4th step....

I told her the steps are in order for a reason. That is why they are STEPS.

xoxo Pep!

Susan

This may be a little off topic (which I'm very good at) but...





UHHHH...yeah...

like not telling a spouse that you have had an affair because your feel your decision is best and right. You don't want to hurt him and you deny him the right to make his own choice about how he wants to respond = manipulation.

Well ...

Yes.

But I don't know if Pep is working the steps.

A 4th step is pretty self-destructive if done of order.

sigh...done out of order.

My stupid eyeballs don't see typos. I see everything correctly until its too late.

Haha, it just occured to me that I spend my life post-stroke, wondering what mistakes and faults (typos) I can not see.

God must think he is pretty funny.

Right on BR. Wish I had known this before.

An incredible insight, once you have this.

Ok, reread Peps first post.

Pepperband.

4th steps should not be done by "myself". And this group does not replace a sponsor.

*spankings and hugs*

I stand *spanked*

message received

thank you

Hi, Pep.

Everyone manipulates. It is an incorporated extension of being human, at least in the fallen state.

As such, its proper use is subject to judgment from any person or system involved, as well as outside observers for that matter. That makes manipulation subject to definition and interpretation. Yours may vary from mine and others.

As such, I have a simple set of rules that I live by now, since I have manipulated others harshly in the past, disregarding the damage I did to them.

Everyday I pray that God will help me to help others. I ask that my advice always be good and appropriate, and that I cause no harm.

Since I can only hope that God will hear me and answer, I must accept responsibility for any harm that I do since God is certainly not my puppet, and not at my beck and call.

Privately, I have worked with betrayed spouses to end the affairs of their wayward spouses in very manipulative ways that I won't do or reveal here. Many would not agree with my approach. In my mind, I regard any affair as a breach of vows, and I believe that any legal means to stop it is okay. If the marriage ends in divorce and the affair partners want to get back together, then that is their business, but that is after the end of the marriage. Until then, there is an obligation. I will let that stand as my confession that I still utilize some methods of maneuvering or manipulation on other people. I am also willing to discuss it with them afterward.

Other than an affair or other egregious act by a wayward spouse, I think that maneuvering and manipulation in a marriage should be judiciously avoided, and replaced by honesty.

I am glad that you found a way to communicate with your husband that solved your issues.

God bless,
Gimble

What a great thread Pep... thanks.

Bramble Rose

I printed out your post, and plan on taking it with me when I visit my parents in a few days. All of my mother's dealings with others are flavoured with manipulation, and I struggle to protect and defend myself.

I'm going to sit with your words and work out how she would be behaving towards me if she were not being manipulative, and then work out the difference.

Thank you.

TogetherAlone

Hi Together ~

Being manipulated and drawing boundaries is a much different approach to manipulation than avoiding manipulator behavior.

It's good to identify when you are being manipulated. But the only thing that you can change about that situation is how YOU react to being manipulated. Clear strong boundaries are a must!

You can't change your mom. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I'll bet Susan probably has some very good ideas about Mom's and manipulation that she can share with you!

Yes. I read that and thought to myself "oh dear". Please do NOT go visit your Mom expecting to recognize her manipulation and get her to stop.

It just ain't gonna happen.

Been there, done that, washed the car with the tshirt! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Edited to add...that was NOT a car I washed, it was a DARN 18-wheeler!

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

A maneuver is one of the active means of manipulation. Manipulation resources creatively, by aggressive and passive means, IMHO.

Manipulating someone entails getting them to do, or not to do, something which requires them to sacrifice or to suffer for your own personal gain, or is alternatively a means of forcing your personal code of morals on another.

Is manipulation an acceptable means of defense against a manipulative person?

Manipulation tastes of self righteousness and entitlement, not of nurturing love.

If I feel that someone is trying to manipulate me, I think it is important to try and take a look behind the stage. What is it that they truly want from me? Is it recognition, admiration, affection? Compassion can go a long way.

Susan / BrambleRose

Thanks for your concern! My aim is not to stop my Mum manipulating, it's simply to recognise when it's happening. Which I think would be half the battle.

TA

So if I copy this post, and paste and email it to myself, hoping WW is reading my email and will see it, and think about it.....

Is that manipulation?

WW says I have serious manipulation issues. I saw a post that asked if another's SO had grown up being manipulated by guilt. WW was VERY manipulated by guilt.

I can see some manipulative behaviour in myself. This thread is so enlightening. But I am not sure my manipulation is as bad as it has been painted. But no specific proof has been offered.

Any comments for clarity?

What would be your motive for doing this?

Susan

you hope she will read your email, see it, and think about it and WHAT?

Ultimately I want the marriage to work. I hope that WW might read some of this and look back at what has gone on the last year and a half, and think about choices she makes in the future. The exact sitch is described (in the script), and I hope she might realize it, if she sees the text in the email.

I do not send it to her directly. I feel that would bring a negative response.

Sending it directly would be a negative because...?

But sending it to yourself hoping she will see could be a positive because...?

How much would you normally email yourself? What if you wife knew you were doing this? Do you think this would be a negative or a positive?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

This is the part that scared us. Imagining how she would behave if she were not manipulative is a waste of brain cells and energy.

Instead just accept and know that she is. Then invest your energy in you, your proper boundaries, and your responses.

Your job is to work out how you are going to behave toward her because she is manipulative.

Susan

Oh my...that was ME <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Nothing like seeing the ugliness of your manipulation right before your eyes. I am not that person anymore, at least I try very hard not to be. Reading this thread has shown me that I do still try to manipulate my H more than I cared to see. Wow! I need to really meditate on this stuff for a while. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Let me share something with you that I just learned about myself.

When I make the choice to do some manipulation that involves ME lowering my level of integrity (*big red flag*) ....

I have discovered this is probably a result of me feeling inadequate for the task .... a lack of confidence that I can accomplish my goals without manipulation!

So, instead of dealing with my lack of confidence, or my lack of skills, or my lack of faith ....

I try to accomplish my goals by LOWERING my personal standards of integrity ... and voila' ---> [color:"red"] a worse mess [/color]

Here's MY lesson in a nutshell.... (so far <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )


So, instead of dealing with my lack of confidence, or my lack of skills, or my lack of faith ....

Here is my real task ... fixing THESE things about me.

Pepper, I did not finish reading the entire thread because I thought of an answer for you so I wanted to post it before I forgot. I'm sorry if you've already resolved it. you said

In this case...go back to step 1....(I use the christian one but for this discussion i'll just use the higher power one)

1. Admit we are powerless over our dependencies--that our lives have become unmanagable.

So, if you are trying to manage your life by doing things that will manage what other people do, to control the outcome for whatever reason...then you have degraded into manipulating. You have absolutely no power (or should have no power) over what another person does even in situations that concern you...such as the timing, if the POJA will be reached, etc.

and since now it would seem you are very dependent upon if and when XYZ happens, then you are back into your dependency...

the outcome is out of your control. If your Spouse is setting a boundary on when and why and what....then if you plow over the boundary you've tresspassed.

BUT, if you can go back through some of the steps so you can reach the point where you can give it over (let the cookies crumble), and then reapproach with a pure motive..then you've gotten somewhere.

PS. the 12 step program I'm using is

"The 12 steps--a spiritual journey"

take care! (PS....I'm in between steps 1 through 3)

Dang, I think this might be one of the greatest threads ever... it's taking me DAYS to get through it... anyway, some pages back, Shattered Dreams wrote:


... and it struck me that the difference may very well lie in the difference between trying to have someone understand your POV and having someone adopt your POV.

dewt