In other words... Suz ... I shared my weakness with him, and he opened up and made things very easily resolved.


Interesting..

Is Plan A, or Plan B, for that matter not a intentional series of manipulations to induce your WS back into connecting with a BS?

Remember what your parents told you about 1st impressions? If you paid attention to what they told you, and followed through with your very best foot forward, is that not manipulation?

When the car salesman tells you the car will start, run and make you feel like a million bucks when you drive it, is that not manipulation?

When your pastor gives a fiery sermon, and warns you of the woes of sin, is that not manipulation?

We are all doing this every day... some with honorable intentions, some not, and most of us somewhere in-between.

I think, part of the answer to your question, is that when you are manipulative of someone else, for your own gain, and at the expense of another, however subtle, then your actions are in need of reexamination.

If your choice of words or actions to convince another to "see things" your way are honorable, and at no other's expense, then that manipulation is likewise honorable.

I think... therefore I am. I am, therefore I manipulate.

Best wishes,
SD

He brought you back to reality...

The reality that he is the man he is today and not the sick man you decided to revisit.

The reality that I lowered my guard and showed him a piece of me that I am not so proud of ... and he loved me more.

PS ... you've got mail.

Often when I share my weakness - straight, no manipulation - he withdraws, feels manipulated, protests. My words make him feel something, and he doesn't like that.

Doesn't make me want to share, frankly. So is he manipulating me?

Hmm, this is definitely food for thought.
Here's my list.

I manipulate when I:

- assume others are not capable of doing things for themselves or truthfully speaking up for what they want

ie they 'need' me to 'help' them do what I 'know' they really want.

- give 'gifts' that are not really gifts

ie they will now feel obligated to 'give' me what I want.

- pretend to be happier with a situation than I am

ie the other will now think I am a wonderfully carefree person who happens to like what they like and will now want to 'give' me what I want.

Exactly, manipulation can and is used for good as well as bad.

As parents we manipulate our children. For instance when my daughter says something nasty to me, I go to her, hug her, and say "oh honey you must really be in pain to say something so hurtful". I am knowingly manipulating her. One I know she needs a hug, two I want her to examine her feelings closely when she behaves like that and three it lightens both our moods and we have a good time together after that.

I could also manipulate her with ill intent using guilt. This would be bad manipulation, so I am extremely careful about this.

Did he have a parent who controlled and manipulated partly using guilt, so now he sees it even when it isn't there? Is he at all aware of this possibility?

I'm not sure whether this is manipulation or just an unwillingness to examine himself.

My H has something similar at times. It usually takes a day or two of rumination on his part, and in the end he resolves it.
Do you keep sharing anyway?

aaah.

Plan A and Plan B are NOT manipulation.

Oh?

Gotta go out... looking forward to any replies...

SD

Yes, Smur, it occurs to me he did. He had two parents who worked hard at avoiding emotional contact of any kind, with anyone. How do you make a kid avoid emotional contact with hs own parents? Reward him for 'avoiding' behaviour, punish him for 'looking'. He's probably learned that a Good Girl doesn't want to be looked at, and he's a Bad Boy if he looks.


Yes. I'm teaching myself not to be hurt or deterred by his reaction.

Expectations are premeditated resentments. Sounds like you experienced a dose of that today.

I suspect that you confused expectations with needs and were about to make attempt to ensure (control the outcome) that your expectation was met.

How do I know if I am being manipulative?

Am I feeling anxious and fearful (out of control) about an outcome?

What are my motives?

First and foremost:

Am I unwilling to consider any other outcome than mine?

Am I expecting a specific outcome?

Am I fearful of alternative outcomes?

If I am detached and submitted, I can communicate my needs (not expectations!) in a clear, non lovebusting manner, avoiding selfilsh demands, disrespectful judgements and angry outbursts.

I put my trust in God that if I do my part, He will do his part. And I trust that His imagination is way cooler and bigger than mine. So I am open to the thought of alternatives that I may not have considered.

If I am fearful, and willful, I feel entitled to give into the urge bully and manipulate my spouse into doing what I want. (God?? Who's that? Nevermind, WHO CARES!?)

If I am untrusting and disrespectful, not only to God, but to my spouse (or relative, or friend, or coworker) because I feel that my opinions are right and therefore more important - I will easily feel entitled and justified in taking dishonest action to manipulate (deny my spouse a respectful choice).

And for the record, honesty, with impure motives, is not honesty.

And one more thing. Pepperband, the Big Book is a wonderful book. However, the Big Book is written by alcoholics, to alcoholics. While in Al Anon, we practice the 12 steps of AA ourselves...it is a very different spiritual approach.

Al Anon has wonderful literature that addresses the unique problem of co-dependency. The daily readers are nice. Personally I prefer ODAT. But my favorite is either Paths to Recovery, or Survival to Recovery. I like How Al-Anon Works too.

As for Plan A and Plan B.

Neither are meant as manipulation.

It is true that Plan A is a negotiation. But plan A is not a manipulation.

The BS in plan A, changes those things about him/herself that led to the deterioration of the marriage. This means that the BS addresses, changes and attempts to repair what was his/her responsiblity.

Acknowledging fault, accepting responisbilty and taking action to correct and to repair is not manipulation.

It is a hopeful offer, to the WS, by words and deeds, letting the WS know that the BS "gets it" and that there is reason to believe that the marriage not only can be fixed, but love and happiness restored.

However, to stay long, in the face of betrayal, is too much for any spouse. Plan B is protection. It says if you choose to cheat, I choose to protect myself from hurt. It leaves the WS freedom to choose the marriage or not - as the BS has removed him/herself from the situation.

The boundary of plan B is not a demand and is not an attempt to control (of course, many do abuse plan B to do just that).

Plan B is a consequence. Not manipulation. It is a refusal of the BS to participate in an adulterous triangle.

I hoped you would mention working the 4th step....

I told her the steps are in order for a reason. That is why they are STEPS.

xoxo Pep!

Susan

This may be a little off topic (which I'm very good at) but...





UHHHH...yeah...

like not telling a spouse that you have had an affair because your feel your decision is best and right. You don't want to hurt him and you deny him the right to make his own choice about how he wants to respond = manipulation.

Well ...

Yes.

But I don't know if Pep is working the steps.

A 4th step is pretty self-destructive if done of order.

sigh...done out of order.

My stupid eyeballs don't see typos. I see everything correctly until its too late.

Haha, it just occured to me that I spend my life post-stroke, wondering what mistakes and faults (typos) I can not see.

God must think he is pretty funny.

Right on BR. Wish I had known this before.

An incredible insight, once you have this.

Ok, reread Peps first post.

Pepperband.

4th steps should not be done by "myself". And this group does not replace a sponsor.

*spankings and hugs*