I stand *spanked*

message received

thank you

Hi, Pep.

Everyone manipulates. It is an incorporated extension of being human, at least in the fallen state.

As such, its proper use is subject to judgment from any person or system involved, as well as outside observers for that matter. That makes manipulation subject to definition and interpretation. Yours may vary from mine and others.

As such, I have a simple set of rules that I live by now, since I have manipulated others harshly in the past, disregarding the damage I did to them.

Everyday I pray that God will help me to help others. I ask that my advice always be good and appropriate, and that I cause no harm.

Since I can only hope that God will hear me and answer, I must accept responsibility for any harm that I do since God is certainly not my puppet, and not at my beck and call.

Privately, I have worked with betrayed spouses to end the affairs of their wayward spouses in very manipulative ways that I won't do or reveal here. Many would not agree with my approach. In my mind, I regard any affair as a breach of vows, and I believe that any legal means to stop it is okay. If the marriage ends in divorce and the affair partners want to get back together, then that is their business, but that is after the end of the marriage. Until then, there is an obligation. I will let that stand as my confession that I still utilize some methods of maneuvering or manipulation on other people. I am also willing to discuss it with them afterward.

Other than an affair or other egregious act by a wayward spouse, I think that maneuvering and manipulation in a marriage should be judiciously avoided, and replaced by honesty.

I am glad that you found a way to communicate with your husband that solved your issues.

God bless,
Gimble

What a great thread Pep... thanks.

Bramble Rose

I printed out your post, and plan on taking it with me when I visit my parents in a few days. All of my mother's dealings with others are flavoured with manipulation, and I struggle to protect and defend myself.

I'm going to sit with your words and work out how she would be behaving towards me if she were not being manipulative, and then work out the difference.

Thank you.

TogetherAlone

Hi Together ~

Being manipulated and drawing boundaries is a much different approach to manipulation than avoiding manipulator behavior.

It's good to identify when you are being manipulated. But the only thing that you can change about that situation is how YOU react to being manipulated. Clear strong boundaries are a must!

You can't change your mom. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I'll bet Susan probably has some very good ideas about Mom's and manipulation that she can share with you!

Yes. I read that and thought to myself "oh dear". Please do NOT go visit your Mom expecting to recognize her manipulation and get her to stop.

It just ain't gonna happen.

Been there, done that, washed the car with the tshirt! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Edited to add...that was NOT a car I washed, it was a DARN 18-wheeler!

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

A maneuver is one of the active means of manipulation. Manipulation resources creatively, by aggressive and passive means, IMHO.

Manipulating someone entails getting them to do, or not to do, something which requires them to sacrifice or to suffer for your own personal gain, or is alternatively a means of forcing your personal code of morals on another.

Is manipulation an acceptable means of defense against a manipulative person?

Manipulation tastes of self righteousness and entitlement, not of nurturing love.

If I feel that someone is trying to manipulate me, I think it is important to try and take a look behind the stage. What is it that they truly want from me? Is it recognition, admiration, affection? Compassion can go a long way.

Susan / BrambleRose

Thanks for your concern! My aim is not to stop my Mum manipulating, it's simply to recognise when it's happening. Which I think would be half the battle.

TA

So if I copy this post, and paste and email it to myself, hoping WW is reading my email and will see it, and think about it.....

Is that manipulation?

WW says I have serious manipulation issues. I saw a post that asked if another's SO had grown up being manipulated by guilt. WW was VERY manipulated by guilt.

I can see some manipulative behaviour in myself. This thread is so enlightening. But I am not sure my manipulation is as bad as it has been painted. But no specific proof has been offered.

Any comments for clarity?

What would be your motive for doing this?

Susan

you hope she will read your email, see it, and think about it and WHAT?

Ultimately I want the marriage to work. I hope that WW might read some of this and look back at what has gone on the last year and a half, and think about choices she makes in the future. The exact sitch is described (in the script), and I hope she might realize it, if she sees the text in the email.

I do not send it to her directly. I feel that would bring a negative response.

Sending it directly would be a negative because...?

But sending it to yourself hoping she will see could be a positive because...?

How much would you normally email yourself? What if you wife knew you were doing this? Do you think this would be a negative or a positive?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

This is the part that scared us. Imagining how she would behave if she were not manipulative is a waste of brain cells and energy.

Instead just accept and know that she is. Then invest your energy in you, your proper boundaries, and your responses.

Your job is to work out how you are going to behave toward her because she is manipulative.

Susan

Oh my...that was ME <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Nothing like seeing the ugliness of your manipulation right before your eyes. I am not that person anymore, at least I try very hard not to be. Reading this thread has shown me that I do still try to manipulate my H more than I cared to see. Wow! I need to really meditate on this stuff for a while. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Let me share something with you that I just learned about myself.

When I make the choice to do some manipulation that involves ME lowering my level of integrity (*big red flag*) ....

I have discovered this is probably a result of me feeling inadequate for the task .... a lack of confidence that I can accomplish my goals without manipulation!

So, instead of dealing with my lack of confidence, or my lack of skills, or my lack of faith ....

I try to accomplish my goals by LOWERING my personal standards of integrity ... and voila' ---> [color:"red"] a worse mess [/color]

Here's MY lesson in a nutshell.... (so far <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )


So, instead of dealing with my lack of confidence, or my lack of skills, or my lack of faith ....

Here is my real task ... fixing THESE things about me.

Pepper, I did not finish reading the entire thread because I thought of an answer for you so I wanted to post it before I forgot. I'm sorry if you've already resolved it. you said

In this case...go back to step 1....(I use the christian one but for this discussion i'll just use the higher power one)

1. Admit we are powerless over our dependencies--that our lives have become unmanagable.

So, if you are trying to manage your life by doing things that will manage what other people do, to control the outcome for whatever reason...then you have degraded into manipulating. You have absolutely no power (or should have no power) over what another person does even in situations that concern you...such as the timing, if the POJA will be reached, etc.

and since now it would seem you are very dependent upon if and when XYZ happens, then you are back into your dependency...

the outcome is out of your control. If your Spouse is setting a boundary on when and why and what....then if you plow over the boundary you've tresspassed.

BUT, if you can go back through some of the steps so you can reach the point where you can give it over (let the cookies crumble), and then reapproach with a pure motive..then you've gotten somewhere.

PS. the 12 step program I'm using is

"The 12 steps--a spiritual journey"

take care! (PS....I'm in between steps 1 through 3)

Dang, I think this might be one of the greatest threads ever... it's taking me DAYS to get through it... anyway, some pages back, Shattered Dreams wrote:


... and it struck me that the difference may very well lie in the difference between trying to have someone understand your POV and having someone adopt your POV.

dewt