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Do I defend him? Yes. Do I make excuses? Yes. Am I in denial? Absolutely. However I'm trying to recognize these things with (all of) your help and develop a clear path to recovery. One way or another.
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Nuff said. THIS WAS THE 1st STEP.....THE HARDEST STEP. Congrtaulations.

Now, please realize that once again NOONE person on this site who posts is an EXPERT.....NOOONE. There people who I am sure "think" they are experts, but there NOT. We are fallible and can be wrong. A big part of all of this is done by you with us guiding you. You can't just do what everyone else says and just expect it all to work your marriage back into recovery. We are all NOT going to agree on every nuance of your situation, but for right now, it seems to me the consensus of the experts was to do the PLAN A. You feel comfortbale in doing "plan A", so I would suscribe that you do it as the BOOK says, and the BOOK only. It is the PLan A that I am most distrustful of for the simple fact that so many MISINTERPRET it and turn it into Plan Doormat when they modify it.

Julie, ok, I think I understand now. You are on the right track, hon. I don't know that I would have waited so long, but you know your own limitations and have apparently thought this all through. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You do have the right goals in mind: he must find another job and must end all contact with her. That is about as sound as it gets.

The only thing I could add is please dont' fall for the "work contact" bargain. It is a bargain that you will dearly come to regret. We have others on this forum who made this same bargain whose spouse's affairs have now been going on for years because they settled for this.

OK

Melody, LM, thank you.

LM, you're right - I modified it and I could write out precisely why that worked for me, but that wastes your time and mine. I can see how this leads you to mistrust it. And I can see how I RISKED (because I don't necessarily think it's in my husband's nature to purposefully do so) being a doormat, especially had I not come here to share my "joy". UGH

Melody, thank you for hanging around long enough to understand! I know what you're saying about the work contact situation and I believe where there's a will there's a way, but I just can't see him finding/taking time for her outside of that. But I will agree to at least not close the door on that as a realistic possibility.

To you both, I know you're not experts nor can you hold my hand for the rest of my marriage, but knowing what you know now, what is my next, best, wisest, most successful-harmonious-marriage-friendly step? Like, tomorrow? Keeping in mind that he is *supposed* to be at work at 3? I value your suggestions here.

In his hands he holds an EN Questionnaire that I gave him, to fill out tonight and in the days to come so I have an understanding. He knows that I've "found a resource to help" online and that I will be "asking for his participation" in this. I guess I thought that him giving me the compliment last night & inviting me to join poker & taking me to lunch & bringing dinner were all signs of effort and cooperation in participating in our recovery on his part. I misled myself a bit there, I suppose.

I understand he may have gotten good at hiding, there could be a treasure box I'm not aware of. But on the flip side, or the denial/hopeful side, this could be the first note he's ever received & being flattered & confused, he kept it. We talked on Monday night though (just a "where are we going" talk, hadn't been here yet) and on Tuesday morning the note was gone. As it was in a spot I sort of frequent, I know he'd just received it.

Anyway, just trying to sort this all out and do what's right, best, most productive, etc. Thoroughly appreciate the feedback and please, give me more!

Julie, its not outside of that that is the problem. As long as they work together there will be a problem because they can never withdraw from each other. Your marriage will always be on the edge of the precipice if they see each other at work. This is why Harley is "adamant" that contact end for LIFE even if it means a move to another state.

OH, OK, then we'e on the same page. Except for the fact that it's now Friday and I found this on Monday. Yes, I will let him know that ALL contact must end. It's funny, because on Monday night I told him, among other things, "I can't live like this anymore...I can't worry every time you leave for work that you're off making out in a back room...at that time I'd not yet been here and I had no idea (and I'm sure he didn't either) HOW I'd get to that point! Obviously writing her a letter & insisting on NC is the answer. Well, the first step.

Should I be writing out a list of questions I'll ask him during our confrontation? Like, do I ask for details of whether he's got an arsenal of letters/memorabilia? Do I ask him if he's willing to never see her again? I want to ask him, "If we can restore love, overcome resentment, and provide assurance that none of our past issues (we've been "troubled" all 6.5 yrs. we've been married) will resurface, is our marriage worth working on to you? But I don't know if it is seen as appropriate to ask all of that. This is why I'm still a little lost on Plan A. It doesn't walk you thru step-by-step, which is what I need help with!

Well honestly, Julie, the best person to help you plan your confrontation would be Steve Harley.

Outside of that, my opinion is that you don't have enough information yet. And while he doesn't know that you know, he probably isn't hiding his tracks as well as he will after you confront him.

I guarantee that if you just confront him about a lovesick poem written by her, that he'll simply dismiss it as no big deal, the girl is crazy, its one sided, etc. And then he'll say you are making it out to be a big deal when it isn't, and its your problem, not his.

You won't get very far with him. He'll just get better at hiding and carry on.

So, dig. Get your evidence. Either way you'll uncover the truth.

Bump.

BrambleRose, thanks for your reply. You could be right, and that's a scary thought. But what if there really isn't anything else? I did more searching last night, in a few more "nobody ever looks here" places, and turned up nothing. I found a couple letters I'd written him, "hidden" in almost the same fashion as this poem was, except the poem was obviously more fresh than my letter(s) so not as hidden.

I know there's typically more, and that if I wait there will probably be more, but shouldn't I be proactive instead of reactive? Isn't it conceivable that I've caught this early, at first outreach by her? If confronting him will only cause him to hide more and carry on, then why am I urged to confront? I come here looking for help, and I know it's here somewhere (still cannot afford to call Dr. Harley) but so far I'm getting more and more confused. I seriously don't know what my next step is.

Julie, can you have him watched at work? Can you have one of your friends tail him? Like, BrambleRose, I also suspect there is much more. She didn't "fall in love" from a casual workplace relationship.

Is there any chance that he calls her from your house? Sends her emails or IMs?

So now we are leaning towards not confronting yet, so as to allow more interaction, it seems?

I can't really have him watched...he's in & out of there so much that I can't think of a scenario that would make the follower undercover yet able to investigate. I've chosen thus far not to tell any friends, but even if I did I don't think any of them isn't too busy to tail him. I've considered hiring a PI, that would be ideal, but I've maxxed all my credit cards already so that's not even an option for me. I guess that's why I was thinking confrontation is my only option, but again, I don't want to dig myself/us deeper into any holes. I agree he had to have done something to help her feelings grow, I just am stumped at what it was & how to find it.

He only uses the PC for his iPod, not email or IM. I've got instant access to home phone records, and am 99% certain he's not calling her from here. Please stick with me.

Does he have a cell phone? Email account you can get into? I agree that I smell more going on here. Confrontation really doesn't work if you don't have hard evidence. Have you looked at his vehicle to see if he hides things in there? That is where my WH hides his evidence.

Regardless of what method he is using, there is some type of current contact. His need to show you extra attention c/b genuine or a cover. U need to know.

However, the big piece of info is you need to understand you can't control or make sure there is no NC. That is his job to reassure you there isn't. What you can tell him is that you don't want the OW in your life and that includes all persons the OW contacts. Put it in that form and he will get the message.

If he is playing games, you w/b one angry BS later on. Better to expose his true intentions now. If he gets belligerent you know there is more. If he understands, then he maybe repentful and willing t/d what it takes to win you back.

Don't be too easy or quick to recover, but be balanced. Don't play too hard to get but don't be an easy pick up. WS and Xws' like to play with the BS' feelings. Don't allow it.

That is why a good plan A is a protective measure for BS t/d.

L.

***Just a note here: I am not trying to make excuses for him, I am trying to answer all questions in hopes you'll keep coming up with more for me!!***

He does not have an email account, like I said he only gets on here to sync his iPod - he really hates the puter. He does have a cell phone, and that's where I found her number a couple months ago, and asked him to explain, when he of course said she is just a friend...I haven't found it or any other number I don't recognize on his phone since. I've searched his truck, as recently as last night again, and there is nothing except for my EN questionnaire in there.

The note from her isn't hard evidence? Why not? I was thinking it was reason for me to believe he needs to have NC with her, and since the note exists, I figured he'd agree to NC.

The note is not evidence of an affair, though, and we suspect there is an affair. Like Rosie pointed out, he can easily dismiss that by saying that she is some lovestruck nutoid who is chasing. And then you are none the wiser about what is really going on.

Can you borrow a strange car and tail him?

Correct. In fact he's at work right now, and while I don't know how her schedule coincides w/his, my guess is she's there so as he comes & goes today, yes, there is contact.


Correct again. I (maybe foolishly) took them as genuine b/c I'd shared my EN questionnaire with him, so I thought there to be a direct correlation. I could be wrong or right.


YES!! But I'm having such a hard time figuring out how it is that I'll find out! Tonight we are having guests over and tomorrow he will be gone much of the day. Looks like I won't get him until Monday. Until then, be assured, I am going to keep reading Dr. Harley's info and posting here for your insight.


Touche! That's why I'm trying to prep myself for this, so we can get Step 1, so we can get Plan A, so we can work at re-building.

.

Plan A is for you. He benefits if he chooses to work with you. Plan A is for you. This will help you weather whatever crap is thrown your way regardless of whether he is a Ws or Xws.

L.

This is my wishful thinking, even though I know better, but he won't say this. Because she's come up in conversation before, how they'd become friends/confidants & he was important to her as a friend, and he mentioned to me that she "likes" him. Yes he'll dismiss it, as he's been, but he'll put it on my & my insecurities before he puts it on her, as we've already discussed that much.

I want to help y'all better understand the work situation. It's a restaurant, where he works 3x/wk p/t nights to pick up extra cash. So if I got a strange car & tailed him, all I'd see is him on his deliveries to hotels, convention centers, residences, etc. If I wanted to see what their interactions consisted of, I'd (or someone) have to get inside the store front, where she is greeting customers/answering phones, and watch for him to come up there or her to go to the back where he may be waiting for his next assignment. Very difficult.

Now what I've been thinking of doing, is calling there (she's likely to answer phone) saying I was a floral delivery service or something, in an attempt to get her last name. Because in my state there's a website you can plug peoples' info into and get court records - eg her divorce. If there is no divorce, then I could consider contacting her H...

Does he have to do this job?

L.

NO! And obviously if I'm going to insist on NC, he can't do it! Now of course I've got concerns there too: 1. Him not wanting to leave his boss screwed 3x/week all of a sudden; 2. The loss of income will hurt us for a while, as we find a way to replace it; 3. Whatever other reasons he may come up with, which will be either valid or just covers as that's the only place he sees her; 4. He may just straight up tell me he's not going to quit the job, or end their friendship, and then I'll have another mess on my hands that I don't know how to handle (causing me to lean on you all even harder!)

U have a tool here.

Don't concentrate on love but concentrate on safety. His being at that job does not make you feel safe. His boss would understand if the boss knew what his employees were doing. Unless he is like my boss who participates in this A stuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Ok, nuff said. There are other 2nd job opportunities right? Let him know you don't feel safe.

You know this OW c/b just a prowler type OW. Like this may not be her 1st A. Hm..... just wondering.

L.

...and move on to Plan A, right?


All I know about his boss (no, I've never gone there, never met anyone - I know, shame-shame) is that he's a greedy ******. And he relies on my H pretty heavily cuz he gets the job done. So he will give him grief, but OH well - employees are replaceable.


Well thank you for at least being open to other options. It seems that with the note & his supposed efforts to distance himself, she is the pursuer. But let us not forget, her number was in his phone. Big no-no.

He's actually been disgruntled w/the job lately anyway. Greedy ****** boss, relying on him so heavily meaning more workload than others, gas prices are insane, so he might be more agreeable in quitting.

Orchid, what is your opinion on whether or not I mention having found the note? And my idea of him drawing up the NC letter, and me delivering to her in person?

OH, I also wanted to mention none of his friends know about her. She's never met any of them and he's never mentioned her to them or anything. That may be relevant to somebody's thinking...