Hello again. I last posted here 2 days ago, for reference see here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2801620

I have not officially applied "Plan A" and I have not brought up the NC or the love note or the A for that matter. I decided that although I'm armed with a lot of good information along with faith we will get thru this, I still can't trust myself to refrain from sobbing and becoming irrational when this comes up. So I kept up with the smiles and SF and "what can I do for you" behavior and such, and it's been working well. Wednesday night he did go to work, so I'm sure he saw her, but he stayed pretty busy (on the road) so I'm guessing he didn't see her much. I began playing "guessing games" with him on his phone...I texted "I'm thinking of a place..." and gave him clues as he played along, and he'd guess different romantic places we'd been. I was smiling from ear to ear as we carried on reminiscing and shortly after midnight, when he got off, he came home (typically he goes to the bar after work!) I thought this to be huge progress - like it's working! We cuddled for a bit in front of the TV, talked about his night, then went to bed.

Yesterday we spent the day together, I'm not sure how everyone feels about details though I am "bearing all" here, I'll just say the seductions continued and we made a day of it. We both smiled a lot, we connected. Last night I went for a walk and when I was leaving he grabbed me and said, "Hey, you can leave, but only if you promise to be as pretty as you are right now when you get back" We haven't discussed the EN survey I filled out yet, but he obviously read it and took it to heart because admiration was either my #1 or #2!

He & some friends were playing poker in the basement when I returned he asked me to come down to deal the cards (apparently they get tired of dealing??) I gladly accepted and we had fun. This morning I had an interview and when I returned he said, "wanna go get some lunch?" so we did!! Recreational/time alone was another of my top ranking priorities! It was nice, though I must admit after being together all day & night yesterday, I really didn't have much to offer for conversation so I felt a little bad about that. We're in our late 20s and once in a while we'll see someone our age with a love bite and I always comment on how immature that is, we did that in high school but now it seems silly...well, let me tell you he's sporting one right now! I still feel it's a bit silly, but now if she talks to him she'll see it. He is at work tonight and before he left he started to act kind of sad, I could tell he didn't want to go. He asked me if I'd like him to bring home dinner for us whenever he gets a free moment. He called a short while ago and said he'll be in the area within the hour so he'll pick up dinner for us. He will also work tomorrow night, and she'll be there, but I think his head is swimming in infatuation with me right now so I'm truly, truly not worried.

I know that NC DOES need to be established, and Plan A & the withdrawal will still set in, but for right now I'm just feeling reassured. I left him a little note in the car before he left and also a blank EN survey for him, I'm really interested to see where I've been lacking if/when he fills it out. I know I'm still seeing things the way I want to and I know it will be a real challenge to continue doting on him when I'm used to being neglectful - but these past 2 days are proof of why it's worth the extra work. I need to have the conversation with him and I know it will be hard, but I really feel we can get thru this. Once we're thru the weekend I'll do it. I want to give him a wonderful weekend.

Thanks for reading all the way thru. I know I'm a bit foggy myself here, and you'll point things out I'm not seeing if they exist. I don't want to be naive and I don't think it's all better by any means, we've had plenty of "honeymoon periods" throughout our marriage. My intention is for this one to be the new way of being for us. I will continue to post here for support, I know there will be tough days too.

This site is a God send, has that ever been said before!?

Well, this is certainly one way to handle it.......please keep us abreast of how this "behavior" is "working" for you down the road.

There is no doubt certainly in my mind that if I was your cheating husband who was still actively cheating on you and you were content to "act happy and smile" and continue to give me SF and say "what can I do for you"....this would surely be "working" for me also.

Goodluck with all of this.

Wow, I'm a little offended. I wish I felt like you knew my posting history and at least some of the story. Especially considering my current "plan of action" was developed with the advice of many...on this board!

I know you don't want me to be cheated on, I know the ultimate goal of most everyone here is to re-build, it's my goal too. I don't want wool over my eyes and I'm sure nobody wants that for me either.

Sorry you feel offended, but I am just calling it like I see it.....I don't think the "wool" is being pulled over your eyes at all. I am categorically convinced that you know what you are getting here. I was not criticizing your plan or making any judgements about it at all, I was just saying what it would feel like to ME if I was your husband......I have no doubt in the world that you got your "plan" from the many experts here.

Goodluck with this all, I hope that in the end you win your husband's love and committment back and that he gives you a permanent chance to do this.

That is offensive. I'm new here, and new at this scenario, you're not, but to say he's actively cheating...I don't quite see it that way. I never did say "content" either, I said reassured.

Hoping someone will read this & offer/share experiences, suggestions, thoughts, support ...

Julie,

Lemonman may not follow alot of the MB pricipals, and may contradict what some people say - but he is one smart guy - and usually does call it like he sees it - even if it offends. Obviously he is reading something that makes it seem less like a PLan A and more like a doormat, and is expressing his concern that you are allowing H to treat you like an item, and not a person.

I don't know the whole story - so I wont comment, but you may want to make sure you really read up on Plan A. What LM is concerned about is by making it so easy - without the structure of a plan A, you are making your husband enjoy is cake eating more as you aren't improving yourself as Plan A has you do, you are catering to what he wants when he wants - which is also a part of Plan A but not just what Plan A is about.

Hang in there and don't be offended - actually you should feel honored that LM saw something in your post that he thought he should post - he doesn't post for nothing, maybe instead of being offended, try to read into what he is saying and think about it!!!


(((HUGS))))

Julie, has the affair ended? Has all contact ended? If not, what kinds of things are you doing to facilitate an end to the affair?

Dorry, you're right - I've been reading other posts and have appreciated LM's "tell it like it is" style here. And that's why I'm here, to be told like it is. In fact I came here again tonight to be told like it is!! However, he's not familiar with the history and that is offensive, because peoples' situations on here vary from insecure wives to all-out obvious affair with no regard to the spouse. It's hard to know each individual's situation, but I'd really feel more comfortable knowing you tried if you reply!

Anyway, FYI, the A is emotional - I know that's dangerous but I also know it hasn't progressed to the point many have as he's distancing himself. I also have good reason to believe she's the one doing the pursuing, and by pursuing I mean talking at work and recently, writing a "OH how I wish..." poem/note to him. NO - he is not innocent.

I'm quite familiar with Plan A, but since I don't consider myself immune to being blind-sided, I'll read it again. And again. I guess I consider myself to be following Plan A, but I haven't had the "I found this note, we're going to write her a letter and you're going to resign" talk with him yet. I'm NOT being a doormat, I'm actually being as available to him as I should have been for 8 years!

I could be wrong - that note could have been given to him to give to a friend of his. Or it could have been the 36th she wrote him, and they could have been having sex on the DL now for 6 months - I don't know. It was suggested to me that while I'm getting my ducks in a row, I make home/marriage/me as comfortable and wonderful for him as humanly possible. That's what I started doing, and it's been a great 2 days, and I wanted to share that. Here's hoping I get some followers as I'm sure I'll need them.

Julie, I think Lemonman's legitimate concern is that he sees you trying hard to appease your H but doesn't see you doing much to address the affair. And perhaps you ARE doing that, but just didn't mention it. This was my concern also when I read your post.

The purpose of Plan A is not to appease the WS, but rather to negotiate an end to the affair while avoiding lovebusters. And maybe you are doing things to bust up the affair and just didn't mention it in your post.

Can you tell me what you are doing to end his affair? Do you think they are still in contact?

Is the OW married?

Well no, I skipped that part ("bust up the affair") - knowingly given our situation right now - but plan to "expose" and negotiate the NC after tomorrow night, probably Sunday or Monday.

I know Plan A isn't about appeasing him, and I hope I haven't given the impression that I've been his "one-stop-shop" all this while, so I guess I can't claim Plan A...I guess it's more of the making it comfortable & wonderful for him while I get my ducks in a row. I've snooped more, there's nothing. Checked phone, nothing. Only thing I've found was the note, that was Monday. I freaked out, but somehow got the sense to get advice before letting him see me freak out, and am doing my best to be the great wife with EN & attention to detail in the interim.

I don't know if she's married. She was, earlier this year, but may now be separated or divorced. I know they are still in contact, he works with her Wed, Fri & Sat evenings so they see each other there. She's in the office, he does delivery for them so he's in & out. He's got to be at work right now, like he had to be there Wed. & has to be there tomorrow, so I can't say NC when he's having contact at work. That's why I'm waiting.

OK, now what? (I'm not being ******, I really do want feedback)

Julie, to whom did you plan on exposing the affair?

What all do you know about the OW?

Other than my husband, nobody! I think you're referring to friends/family...no intention.

I know she works where he works p/t nights. I know her name. I know she has blonde hair. I know that earlier this year, he & I separated because we just weren't getting along & we both agreed we'd like to be apart for a while. It was a week-long separation. Not long after that, she was having issues with her husband. Apparently she bent over backwards for him - cooking, cleaning, packing lunches, things that I'm not famous for, and her husband didn't treat her so well. Knowing that he & I separated & worked it out, she approached him for advice or solace or whatever. A few months after that, in a time when communication between he & I was waning again & he'd been out the night before with friends, I had an urge to check his phone. I saw a number I didn't recognize and called it. Got her voicemail. Immediately (and surprisingly calmly) asked him exactly how important is she to you...he then told me they'd had more conversations, he'd called her a few times, he did say at one point that she likes him and that was the end of that conversation. He felt really bad and was pretty guilt ridden & sulky all day. About a month and a half ago I asked him if he still talks to her and he said no not really, he just sees her in passing. I asked him why he's staying away from her and he said he figured he should focus on work.

I'll add: I really thought he had a handle on this, that he knew to stay away from her as much as he could while at work so he did, and for a while I wasn't worried. Until this past Monday, 8/29, when I found a poem that I assume shd'd written to him, in the basement, hidden but not very well.

Julie, I am confused. How can you expose something to your H he already knows about? Do you mean confront him? Are you saying that you have not even talked to him about the affair? Why would that be?

Do you have evidence that there is an affair? What does this note say?

What did it say?

I don't recall verbatim, I didn't think to make a copy and now it's gone from its original spot, but basically it said "I know we can never be but I can still dream...I know I'm wrong to want you but I want to scream on a mountain top that "I do love you"...I know she holds the key to your heart but I still hope that one day there can be a you & me...My heart can't take no more so I must go..."

The author, who I assume to be the girl at work, somehow managed to make it rhyme and fill a whole page.

To answer your other questions, yes I mean confront him - since finding the note - I have not done this. I've listed why a couple times here. As for evidence, I consider her number in his phone a couple months ago to be cause for concern, not sure it's "evidence", aside from that finding the note was THE red flag for me, because I'm assuming she wrote it.

Julie, I don't know why you haven't confronted him and I don't want to reread this whole thread. Why haven't you confronted him?

Well, with about 99.9% certainty I would hypothesize that there is more, you just have to dig "deeper" or snoop "snoopier"....he has just gotten better at hiding it....they all do. Men, who have nothing to hide don't hide poems/notes that they recieve from other women for NO REASON. This isn't in the least as ONE SIDED as you think or hope.....not by a long shot. Now, I think you finding what you did Monday was much more than "only a note".

You are right in a sense that I don't know your situation detail for detail, but I have seen and read about a thousand cases just like it, and your case IN DEAD REALITY seems "no different" than the rest. Yes, the dressing may be a different flavor, but it all smells the same underneath........I can know when to take a "hot appy" to the OR on sick sense alone, and unfortunately I have that "sick sense" here with your situation, hence one of the reasons I decided to post on the board tonight for the first time in a while.

Could I be wrong?, yup, but I doubt it. Now, I am not saying one thing about your "plan" one way or the other, but I fear that you are rationalizing alot of this (his behavior and actions) to Betrayed Spouse Script pin point accuracy. If you have NOT exposed this affair yet, you are wasting time and are acting as an accomplice to this affair. Don't confuse acting nice and appeasing your Wayward and making life wonderful for him with acting dignified, controlling your angry outbursts and busting up this affair....they are NOT ONE IN THE SAME. You said you felt kind of happy and were "reassured" with how things were going......Julie, I am sorry, but the only reassurance you can be sure of right now is what you found on Monday....all is not lost though (not by a long shot), and I am sure the good people of this site can you help you try and win back the marriage and committment from your WH.....it has no doubt worked for many others, who are living, breathing examples of the sites principles success.

This will be my last post to you on this subject. The "experts" here can more than guide you on the rest.

With sincere compassion and hope, I am rooting for you.

LM

First I wasn't of sound mind to do so. I was advised to approach him in a calm and rational manner - it took me a while to be NOT freaking out & desperate and having bouts of sobbing. Then I wasn't sure how to do it, so I read some more articles/chapters/posts to be better informed. Then Wed evening came and he had to work - yes she was probably there - but I knew it wasn't realistic to have him quit because A) we need the money pretty badly; B) he is a firm believer in leaving on good terms & giving notice, so I knew he wouldn't do that to his boss; C) not really knowing what to expect as an outcome of this confrontation, I figured the "agreement" to write an NC & quit may take a couple days. Being that he works there Wed, Fri & Sat, I decided it best to do so after Sat, giving the couple days that may be necessary.

I re-read Plan A, and I now see the valid concerns and even acknowledge I was wrong; or at least a little carried away. So now I'm lost again.

OK, I guess I wasn't so nice so I understand you being done with me...and I am once again glad that I found this board, because without it I'd obviously continue to drive myself down a path of horrible destruction. Do I defend him? Yes. Do I make excuses? Yes. Am I in denial? Absolutely. However I'm trying to recognize these things with (all of) your help and develop a clear path to recovery. One way or another.

To be honest when I first came back here tonight I questioned if I even belong here. Typical script too, I presume. So I'm staying!! But really, I guess I still just don't get it, and I don't feel I'm getting real clear answers. One person suggested the note wasn't necessarily relevant, but IMO it is because it's what made this real - whatever "this" is. There I go again, denial. But there hasn't been a phone call since months ago, he's been staying away & avoiding conversation w/her, and it was her that wrote the note. There was no line in there that made any indication of his reciprocation. Obviously he's somehow invited it though, because a man who is beaming with "I love my wife so much" doesn't receive such notes. I DON'T deny I need to confront him, discuss the note, maybe find out how many there have been, what exactly contact has consisted of, what it means to him, and then establish that she cannot be allowed in OUR life any longer. But here I sit, going about it all wrong, again, while the clock ticks away...

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Do I defend him? Yes. Do I make excuses? Yes. Am I in denial? Absolutely. However I'm trying to recognize these things with (all of) your help and develop a clear path to recovery. One way or another.
[/quote]

Nuff said. THIS WAS THE 1st STEP.....THE HARDEST STEP. Congrtaulations.

Now, please realize that once again NOONE person on this site who posts is an EXPERT.....NOOONE. There people who I am sure "think" they are experts, but there NOT. We are fallible and can be wrong. A big part of all of this is done by you with us guiding you. You can't just do what everyone else says and just expect it all to work your marriage back into recovery. We are all NOT going to agree on every nuance of your situation, but for right now, it seems to me the consensus of the experts was to do the PLAN A. You feel comfortbale in doing "plan A", so I would suscribe that you do it as the BOOK says, and the BOOK only. It is the PLan A that I am most distrustful of for the simple fact that so many MISINTERPRET it and turn it into Plan Doormat when they modify it.

Julie, ok, I think I understand now. You are on the right track, hon. I don't know that I would have waited so long, but you know your own limitations and have apparently thought this all through. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You do have the right goals in mind: he must find another job and must end all contact with her. That is about as sound as it gets.

The only thing I could add is please dont' fall for the "work contact" bargain. It is a bargain that you will dearly come to regret. We have others on this forum who made this same bargain whose spouse's affairs have now been going on for years because they settled for this.

OK

Melody, LM, thank you.

LM, you're right - I modified it and I could write out precisely why that worked for me, but that wastes your time and mine. I can see how this leads you to mistrust it. And I can see how I RISKED (because I don't necessarily think it's in my husband's nature to purposefully do so) being a doormat, especially had I not come here to share my "joy". UGH

Melody, thank you for hanging around long enough to understand! I know what you're saying about the work contact situation and I believe where there's a will there's a way, but I just can't see him finding/taking time for her outside of that. But I will agree to at least not close the door on that as a realistic possibility.

To you both, I know you're not experts nor can you hold my hand for the rest of my marriage, but knowing what you know now, what is my next, best, wisest, most successful-harmonious-marriage-friendly step? Like, tomorrow? Keeping in mind that he is *supposed* to be at work at 3? I value your suggestions here.

In his hands he holds an EN Questionnaire that I gave him, to fill out tonight and in the days to come so I have an understanding. He knows that I've "found a resource to help" online and that I will be "asking for his participation" in this. I guess I thought that him giving me the compliment last night & inviting me to join poker & taking me to lunch & bringing dinner were all signs of effort and cooperation in participating in our recovery on his part. I misled myself a bit there, I suppose.

I understand he may have gotten good at hiding, there could be a treasure box I'm not aware of. But on the flip side, or the denial/hopeful side, this could be the first note he's ever received & being flattered & confused, he kept it. We talked on Monday night though (just a "where are we going" talk, hadn't been here yet) and on Tuesday morning the note was gone. As it was in a spot I sort of frequent, I know he'd just received it.

Anyway, just trying to sort this all out and do what's right, best, most productive, etc. Thoroughly appreciate the feedback and please, give me more!

Julie, its not outside of that that is the problem. As long as they work together there will be a problem because they can never withdraw from each other. Your marriage will always be on the edge of the precipice if they see each other at work. This is why Harley is "adamant" that contact end for LIFE even if it means a move to another state.

OH, OK, then we'e on the same page. Except for the fact that it's now Friday and I found this on Monday. Yes, I will let him know that ALL contact must end. It's funny, because on Monday night I told him, among other things, "I can't live like this anymore...I can't worry every time you leave for work that you're off making out in a back room...at that time I'd not yet been here and I had no idea (and I'm sure he didn't either) HOW I'd get to that point! Obviously writing her a letter & insisting on NC is the answer. Well, the first step.

Should I be writing out a list of questions I'll ask him during our confrontation? Like, do I ask for details of whether he's got an arsenal of letters/memorabilia? Do I ask him if he's willing to never see her again? I want to ask him, "If we can restore love, overcome resentment, and provide assurance that none of our past issues (we've been "troubled" all 6.5 yrs. we've been married) will resurface, is our marriage worth working on to you? But I don't know if it is seen as appropriate to ask all of that. This is why I'm still a little lost on Plan A. It doesn't walk you thru step-by-step, which is what I need help with!

Well honestly, Julie, the best person to help you plan your confrontation would be Steve Harley.

Outside of that, my opinion is that you don't have enough information yet. And while he doesn't know that you know, he probably isn't hiding his tracks as well as he will after you confront him.

I guarantee that if you just confront him about a lovesick poem written by her, that he'll simply dismiss it as no big deal, the girl is crazy, its one sided, etc. And then he'll say you are making it out to be a big deal when it isn't, and its your problem, not his.

You won't get very far with him. He'll just get better at hiding and carry on.

So, dig. Get your evidence. Either way you'll uncover the truth.

Bump.

BrambleRose, thanks for your reply. You could be right, and that's a scary thought. But what if there really isn't anything else? I did more searching last night, in a few more "nobody ever looks here" places, and turned up nothing. I found a couple letters I'd written him, "hidden" in almost the same fashion as this poem was, except the poem was obviously more fresh than my letter(s) so not as hidden.

I know there's typically more, and that if I wait there will probably be more, but shouldn't I be proactive instead of reactive? Isn't it conceivable that I've caught this early, at first outreach by her? If confronting him will only cause him to hide more and carry on, then why am I urged to confront? I come here looking for help, and I know it's here somewhere (still cannot afford to call Dr. Harley) but so far I'm getting more and more confused. I seriously don't know what my next step is.

Julie, can you have him watched at work? Can you have one of your friends tail him? Like, BrambleRose, I also suspect there is much more. She didn't "fall in love" from a casual workplace relationship.

Is there any chance that he calls her from your house? Sends her emails or IMs?

So now we are leaning towards not confronting yet, so as to allow more interaction, it seems?

I can't really have him watched...he's in & out of there so much that I can't think of a scenario that would make the follower undercover yet able to investigate. I've chosen thus far not to tell any friends, but even if I did I don't think any of them isn't too busy to tail him. I've considered hiring a PI, that would be ideal, but I've maxxed all my credit cards already so that's not even an option for me. I guess that's why I was thinking confrontation is my only option, but again, I don't want to dig myself/us deeper into any holes. I agree he had to have done something to help her feelings grow, I just am stumped at what it was & how to find it.

He only uses the PC for his iPod, not email or IM. I've got instant access to home phone records, and am 99% certain he's not calling her from here. Please stick with me.

Does he have a cell phone? Email account you can get into? I agree that I smell more going on here. Confrontation really doesn't work if you don't have hard evidence. Have you looked at his vehicle to see if he hides things in there? That is where my WH hides his evidence.

Regardless of what method he is using, there is some type of current contact. His need to show you extra attention c/b genuine or a cover. U need to know.

However, the big piece of info is you need to understand you can't control or make sure there is no NC. That is his job to reassure you there isn't. What you can tell him is that you don't want the OW in your life and that includes all persons the OW contacts. Put it in that form and he will get the message.

If he is playing games, you w/b one angry BS later on. Better to expose his true intentions now. If he gets belligerent you know there is more. If he understands, then he maybe repentful and willing t/d what it takes to win you back.

Don't be too easy or quick to recover, but be balanced. Don't play too hard to get but don't be an easy pick up. WS and Xws' like to play with the BS' feelings. Don't allow it.

That is why a good plan A is a protective measure for BS t/d.

L.

***Just a note here: I am not trying to make excuses for him, I am trying to answer all questions in hopes you'll keep coming up with more for me!!***

He does not have an email account, like I said he only gets on here to sync his iPod - he really hates the puter. He does have a cell phone, and that's where I found her number a couple months ago, and asked him to explain, when he of course said she is just a friend...I haven't found it or any other number I don't recognize on his phone since. I've searched his truck, as recently as last night again, and there is nothing except for my EN questionnaire in there.

The note from her isn't hard evidence? Why not? I was thinking it was reason for me to believe he needs to have NC with her, and since the note exists, I figured he'd agree to NC.

The note is not evidence of an affair, though, and we suspect there is an affair. Like Rosie pointed out, he can easily dismiss that by saying that she is some lovestruck nutoid who is chasing. And then you are none the wiser about what is really going on.

Can you borrow a strange car and tail him?

Correct. In fact he's at work right now, and while I don't know how her schedule coincides w/his, my guess is she's there so as he comes & goes today, yes, there is contact.


Correct again. I (maybe foolishly) took them as genuine b/c I'd shared my EN questionnaire with him, so I thought there to be a direct correlation. I could be wrong or right.


YES!! But I'm having such a hard time figuring out how it is that I'll find out! Tonight we are having guests over and tomorrow he will be gone much of the day. Looks like I won't get him until Monday. Until then, be assured, I am going to keep reading Dr. Harley's info and posting here for your insight.


Touche! That's why I'm trying to prep myself for this, so we can get Step 1, so we can get Plan A, so we can work at re-building.

.

Plan A is for you. He benefits if he chooses to work with you. Plan A is for you. This will help you weather whatever crap is thrown your way regardless of whether he is a Ws or Xws.

L.

This is my wishful thinking, even though I know better, but he won't say this. Because she's come up in conversation before, how they'd become friends/confidants & he was important to her as a friend, and he mentioned to me that she "likes" him. Yes he'll dismiss it, as he's been, but he'll put it on my & my insecurities before he puts it on her, as we've already discussed that much.

I want to help y'all better understand the work situation. It's a restaurant, where he works 3x/wk p/t nights to pick up extra cash. So if I got a strange car & tailed him, all I'd see is him on his deliveries to hotels, convention centers, residences, etc. If I wanted to see what their interactions consisted of, I'd (or someone) have to get inside the store front, where she is greeting customers/answering phones, and watch for him to come up there or her to go to the back where he may be waiting for his next assignment. Very difficult.

Now what I've been thinking of doing, is calling there (she's likely to answer phone) saying I was a floral delivery service or something, in an attempt to get her last name. Because in my state there's a website you can plug peoples' info into and get court records - eg her divorce. If there is no divorce, then I could consider contacting her H...

Does he have to do this job?

L.

NO! And obviously if I'm going to insist on NC, he can't do it! Now of course I've got concerns there too: 1. Him not wanting to leave his boss screwed 3x/week all of a sudden; 2. The loss of income will hurt us for a while, as we find a way to replace it; 3. Whatever other reasons he may come up with, which will be either valid or just covers as that's the only place he sees her; 4. He may just straight up tell me he's not going to quit the job, or end their friendship, and then I'll have another mess on my hands that I don't know how to handle (causing me to lean on you all even harder!)

U have a tool here.

Don't concentrate on love but concentrate on safety. His being at that job does not make you feel safe. His boss would understand if the boss knew what his employees were doing. Unless he is like my boss who participates in this A stuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Ok, nuff said. There are other 2nd job opportunities right? Let him know you don't feel safe.

You know this OW c/b just a prowler type OW. Like this may not be her 1st A. Hm..... just wondering.

L.

...and move on to Plan A, right?


All I know about his boss (no, I've never gone there, never met anyone - I know, shame-shame) is that he's a greedy ******. And he relies on my H pretty heavily cuz he gets the job done. So he will give him grief, but OH well - employees are replaceable.


Well thank you for at least being open to other options. It seems that with the note & his supposed efforts to distance himself, she is the pursuer. But let us not forget, her number was in his phone. Big no-no.

He's actually been disgruntled w/the job lately anyway. Greedy ****** boss, relying on him so heavily meaning more workload than others, gas prices are insane, so he might be more agreeable in quitting.

Orchid, what is your opinion on whether or not I mention having found the note? And my idea of him drawing up the NC letter, and me delivering to her in person?

OH, I also wanted to mention none of his friends know about her. She's never met any of them and he's never mentioned her to them or anything. That may be relevant to somebody's thinking...

Julie,

I've been reading your thread, and thought I'd jump in and point out a few things that you may or may not know...

1. Just because your husband never had an email acct. before, doesn't mean he doesn't have one now...what motivation would he have to tell you that he'd opened one if he is using it to communicate with the OW? How do you know that he doesn't have an email acct.? Almost all WSes with access to a computer set up secret email accounts...I hate to say this, but your H may be counting on you thinking that he "hates the puter"...A GREAT SMOKESCREEN...
Before my own A, I HATED personal email...I only used the computer to shop. However, once in the A, I couldn't get enough personal email correspondence with the OM...people in A's become very different from the what they used to be...

2. Did you know that an Ipod allows you to use it as a "little black book"? You may be able to find OW's last name, email address, home address and/or all her phone numbers just by taking a look through the "extras" section of your H's Ipod...

3. I'm sure that you are aware that cell phone history is easily cleared, so your not finding any unfamiliar numbers may be a product of your H just erasing her calls as they come in...

So sorry that you are in this situation, but it's great that you are here doing all that you can to understand what may be going on...

Mrs. Wondering

Mrs. W, thank you for chiming in. The more help/feedback I can get, the better off I am, I'm sure.

1. Yes, he could have an account but it's highly unlikely. I work from home, so I'm on it nearly 24/7. Do I leave the house? Of course, so it's not IMPOSSIBLE. Why such doubt? Because I can check history on my PC (and no - he DOESN'T know how to clear THAT) and I've found nothing suspicious. Possible, yes, but very very unlikely.
2. No, I had no idea...well I guess I'd heard that a while ago, but I guess I'd "spaced out" the iPod functioning as a way to store contacts. Man, and I sold it to myself, as a gift for him! Worked in the IT Sales industry almost 4 years. I will check that tonight and update as to what I find.
3. Yes call history can be erased, and I'm willing to bet he's caught on to this by now. But all bills are in my name, so he doesn't even have access to his own cell phone bill. We've talked about getting it switched to him, but it hasn't been a big concern/priority for either of us. I haven't checked it in a while, I will do so again though.

As for the note, you can mention of not feeling safe but not the details of the note. Kind of in a casual, way like:

BS: (look sad with heavy sighs).

WS: What's the matter?

BS: Can't put my finger on it exactly....don't feel safe. Something is not right. Can you help me figure it out?

WS: What's not right? I'll try.

BS: Well I've been having these funny, creepy feelings like someone is trying to but into our lives again. You know bad dreams, weird feelings, not sure. Do you know of anything? Has the Ow been in any sort of contact since.....well since something like ___/___/___? (Name the day before the note - not when you found it but the day before it was sent to cover your timeframe).

Then watch his reaction, watch his eyes. Give him time to react. WS' process this stuff slowly.

L.

No details huh? I was thinking of going with something more like...

Me: Can we have a talk?

Him: Sure, what's up?

Me: Well, first off, thanks for putting forth some extra effort. I know I'm still a little weird about accepting compliments, but since putting it all on paper in a Q&A fashion instead of an angry/sad/scared note, it's really helping me to remember what I've "asked" of you. In just a short time, I can see how it's already helped us.

Him: Yea (probably won't have much more to say than that!)

Me: One thing I didn't mention to you Monday night when we talked, because it never came up and I was too irrational, is that I found a note in the basement, in the box by the TV. Did you get that from _____? It's pretty heavy, full of emotion, what does it mean to you?

Him: blah, blah, blah...

Me: What has seeing her been like since you received it?

Him: blah, blah, blah...

Me: OK. As I've told you before, I don't want us to go on like this. Me worrying about her/other, you feeling confused/guilty. If we're to work on us, I need to feel safe. And I don't feel safe with you having contact with her, no matter what it is. I really think it'd be in our family's best interest if you quit.

Him: <<<reaction>>>

Me: I really need your help in burying this, and you're going to need my help in meeting EN & helping you sort out your feelings. I think you should write her a note, and I'll deliver it.

...and follow the guidelines for the note, etc. In walks Plan A.

I'm not saying you're wrong & I'm right. I appreciate your idea and will give it serious thought. Will you share with me though, Orchid, why you've chosen your way over mine? Please?

Why....well you hold all the info and I was working from what I read.

I suggested being vague because it sounded like you weren't sure if he would deny it. Just a hunch. The vague way would help you get a better pix of his true direction.

Your way would let him know about the note. Your cover w/b blown but if that is ok then your way can work. Just remember the intent of your convo.

You sound like you know what you want and how. You also show that you acknowledge when you are not strong enough to handle deep conversations. This is good.

L.

Orchid, I probably won't get the whole truth, he probably will down-play it, but I do want him to know I saw it. And I think without it, I'm not armed with as much reason for him to get away from her. After all, I've known they're friends & too many feelings had been involved & she "likes" him for some time now, so w/o knowledge of the note why do I want him to leave all of a sudden? Ya know?

Bear with me here, I just thought of something that may or may not mean anything, but if you're willing to offer your thoughts on it I welcome them.

In the last couple months we've adopted a "tradition" of getting dinner from there once a week. Typically he either goes by himself or takes one or both of the kids. She's met them, but that hasn't really bothered me much. They have no idea what her name is, just that they talk to the ladies who work there while they wait for the food. Anyway, a couple weeks ago we had 2 birthday parties to attend on a Sunday. One was a friend's kids, so it was the kind of party where you rent something fantastic to keep the kids busy all day while the adults drink & socialize. The other was my family, where everything has to be uptight and you have to sit and exchange strange glances with everyone else there. I had my outfit picked out but couldn't decide on shoes. He suggested a favorite pair of his, which really did look good, but I felt a little awkward wearing CFM heels to a kid's (in my family) birthday party. But, since he was so pleased with the look, I wore them anyway.

It was a long night so we decided to call in our dinner there. We pulled up & he got out, the kids started to get out, and he said to me, "aren't you coming in?" I said, "No I'll wait here". I could see from where we were parked OW was there. All in all it was a great day but I guess I decided to share it w/you now cuz I guess I wouldn't have expected him to expect me to come in. I had no desire to meet her, I'd likely be very rude, but looking back it seems he wanted me to meet her, or maybe wanted her to see me in the great shoes/outfit? So in hindsight I really probably should have gone in & put on the biggest, happiest smile I could muster, and sat in there joking & carrying on w/my family painting a happy, happy picture for her right in front of her very eyes.

Relevance?

I think you know yourself well enough to know what t/d. As for the relevance of the previous potential encournter, it was a good sign he asked you in. Next time don't hestitate even if you look like you just came in from the rain. Raging beauty or cute ragamuffin, you are still his W and he s/b happy you are with him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

BTW, your beauty from within and outside transcends all the beauty the OW can muster up. Why? Because beneath it all she is still an OW. Right now that goes straight to the bones. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

JMHO,
L.

Hmm, good point. Don't you hate it when you think of what you should have done AFTER the fact? Story of my life.

Thank you so much for taking this time to get to know me & my situation. Since I can't realistically see having an opportunity to "confront" him until Monday, I won't be able to update until then. Forgive me though, if I think of 86 different things between now & then that I feel like bouncing off the members here.

Once again, I really appreciate your help. And once again, I'm leaving here tonight feeling more empowered. Now, off to make the house presentable for the night's festivities...

Morning everybody. I'm bumping this thread instead of starting another because in each of my actions, I still really worry if I'm being naive or doing the right thing, etc.

As those of you who followed me yesterday know, "D-Day" will be tomorrow, as far as I can tell right now anyway. We were supposed to have guests last night but ended up having none. This has happened before, and it has turned into either a night of us just watching movies, or him pacing, being upset that the plans are ruined and now he can't "blow off steam" from all the pent up *whatever* from the long hard week. Last night was a little of both; I asked if he wanted to order a movie and he said no, he didnt' feel like sitting there. He gave just going out to the bar or another friend's house some serious thought, and I tried to hide it but this scared me, because although I don't really think he ever sees OW outside the workplace, I just didn't want that opportunity to exist. He did mention both of us going out, but we both knew we couldn't find a babysitter that late in the evening. Anyway, he ended up getting a bit sleepy, watching football which I loathe, and I kind of just let him be. Eventually he came around, telling me about some of the players' contracts & injuries & new rules/regulations in college football. All stuff I don't care one bit about, but I really listened attentively and laughed/smiled where appropriate. So I think we both made the best of the crappy evening we were dealt.

He'll be working (related to his actual profession) at a friend's house and afterward they're planning to cook out & drink, etc. I was having a crabby morning w/kids and before I knew it my Taker took over with him, and he left the house probably thinking, "THIS is why I don't want to be married!" and I stayed hurt, thinking he was selfish not to help me out. Then I re-read about Giver & Taker and realized I was out of line. So I called him and apologized, told him I love him, and that's it. He said, "It's OK, just make sure you come down & see me today."

Should I go over to see him, and have fun with our friends when the work is done? Or should I give him this day to be away from us all, doing his own thing? Sorry this is long...I guess my main concern right now is whether I should give him a bit of space or not, knowing I won't be his favorite person tomorrow...

iPod is clear. No contacts, no notes.

Julie,

Good on the Ipod thing...and by all means go and have a blast...Plan A is about acting, not reacting...YOU go and YOU have a great time...the rest will follow...

Mrs. Wondering

Thanks Mrs. W...I'm getting all gussied up and actually look forward to getting OUT and having FUN!! Still considering calling the workplace before I leave, to try to get her last name...worth a try, or wait till I talk to him tomorrow? Whaddya think?

I'm avoiding. I've been "studying" here & reading posts all morning trying to get pumped/strong/ready, but I'm now faced with it and the fear of failure/emotional outburst is making me want to just skip it. We had a great night last night. Tomorrow it's back to work. I'm not confident that I've got the time/resources/strength to confront him!

Julie~

In order for your marriage to be all that it was intended to be, there must be complete openess and honesty...you can't even begin to make it that way until all the cards are on the table...it won't be easy, but you've read and studied, and you know what you have to do and how to do it...we will all be here to help you with the next steps once you take this first one...

I am reminded of a quote from one of my favorite books, A Rich Man's Secret by Ken Roberts..."Take the first step, no more, no less, and the rest will follow."...

Thinking of you...

Mrs. Wondering

Finally mustered up the guts to do it, and the phone rang. My son, who was at my sil's house, needs to be picked up NOW because they got into trouble. My son has been having issues, behaviorally, MC says due to H & I not communicating very well. I can't really argue with him. Anyway, so I told H that a priority of mine today is to have a talk with him (him at least knowing of my intention will hopefully hold me accountable) but I'd like him to go get my son & deal with the issue over there.

This is how it always goes. I have a pressing issue, but for whatever reason I put off talking to him about it and sometimes I never do take it to him, either because I convince myself it's not worth the trouble (argument, resentment, hurt, me getting emotional & irrational causing him to get angry) or because LIFE gets in the way. Parenthood, bills, cars, etc. I know this is what's killing us - dealing with ISSUES and forgetting to be a COUPLE - and I'm sure that makes OW very attractive - she doesn't have kids or many responsibilities, to my knowledge.

Anyway, here's hoping he "holds me to it" tonight and that the fear of Step 1 dies today. Earlier, there was talk of him calling in tomorrow (day job, actual career) so that we can spend the day together uninterrupted. If we don't talk until late tonight (confront), that may be necessry!

Julie ~ confronting your husband is not his responsiblity.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
lol! It took me a few seconds to catch that one!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Julie, hi!

I've read your thread, and don't have much to say, except that to me your husband seems innocent except being a bit flattered by the girl's attention.

I am not for a second suggesting you change what you are doing, but, your sitch sort of reminded me of something that happened to me once upon a time...

I had ran across an old picture of my ex-wife, and set it aside in an out-of-the-way place in a storeroom. My g/f at the time found it, and read all sorts of stuff into where I had left the picture. "You have a secret place where you go think about her..." Of course, there was no such intent, but it sure made her jealous.

I hope your husband is completely innocent of any wrong doing, and his attitude of absolutely no contact with her will tell you alot. He should be absolutely willing to cut her completely out of his life.

Best regards...

p.s. You got LemonMan to post to you! Wow! I thought he had left MB. You must be special <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WST, thank you for your post, and your point of view. Guess what? Everyone "reads" something a little different into my situation, including me, and it's all great to read & consider. However, only one person is truly aware of exactly what's going on - H. SOOOOOOOooo I need to pull myself together, get my son's punishment under way, and take the first step in building a real relationship with my husband. I won't call him innocent, because he felt the need to hide it. If he was my best friend, and I his, he would have come home and showed it to me, and we would have laughed about it.

I wondered how many would catch the "CFM". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> H's & my favorite show together - we're still mourning the loss! Tomorrow I expect I'll have lots to share with you fine folks. Confronting him is not his responsibility - words to live by!

So it went pretty well. I kept my cool until the very end. The note is from her, she gave it to him on Saturday (I found it Monday) in passing as he wasn't in the building much that night. He says it meant nothing to him, he threw it away. I asked him how it was seeing her afterward and he said it was weird, I asked him if he was surprised and he said yes. I told him something obviously led up to her writing it and he said yes, he let her stroke his ego. Said he never talked BAD about me, but he'd vent to her after a tough day and it was nice to hear her kind words with respect and admiration when he wasn't getting it here. He said it was weird to get the poem because he'd already "turned it off" by discontinuing conversation with her.

I told him I'm not angry with him, that I understand his need for someone to listen to him and that I've learned a lot in this past week (I have, THANK YOU ALL!!) and that I'm confident that together, we can get thru this. I said I need to feel safe, and that I don't feel safe with him working there - that she is a danger to our relationship and that we need to have no contact with her, that I need him to quit. He said he doesn't agree, because he's already stopped talking to her, but he does understand and then thought for a moment, then said OK to quitting. He seemed relieved, like there was a release from within.

After a short pause, I asked him how he's going to do it - would he go in or just call? He said "Well I have to give 'em at least 2 weeks notice" and carried on about how this job has been a good resource and he can't burn the bridge. I started to cry, I had no rebuttal. I told him it was likely to be an ugly 2 weeks - word would spread, she may write more letters or corner him every chance she got to try and convince him otherwise, but he maintained he needs not to burn the bridge. I told him our conversation had to be over so I could think and figure this out. (with all your help!)

He cannot go back there. Our conversation was such a good one, I don't want to make waves now, but I really don't want him to go back there!!

Well, it is up to your Wayward Husband to make you feel safe with all of this. Perhaps this was all "nothing" and just a case of a woman having the hots for a married man and he got a little carried away with the ego boost and let her go too far with it.....in his mind it was all innocent on his part so "what is the big deal?" maybe??? But...if I were you, I would keep my eyes and ears open especially now....

Something just feels "wrong" here to me, I just can't put my finger on it. I had this compulsion to post to you the other night, and I am not sure why......you should know that I am at present a pessimist at heart with this infidelity stuff (I will sadly admit that it is MY PRESENT OPINION, that a cheater is ONLY as faithful as his/her current options---admittedly a VERY unpopular view here, and one I will willingly accept dissent about), so feel free to disregard my opinions/views...you will not offend me in the least.

Goodluck with all of this. I hope you get the resloutiuon you want from this.

Lem.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LM, I won't disregard your views in the least. Yes, sure, we can call this whole thing "nothing" compared to some of the other posters, but I know for a fact thanks to MB that our relationship was headed for disaster with or without an OW/OM. BTW, I was caught up in an EA type situation myself a couple years ago, with a co-worker, who took me to lunch and complimented my khakis and told me I deserved better than my husband...H found out one day when my PC automatically logged him onto my AIM, and OM thought it was me...oops. Anyway, I pulled away before anything physical could occur, even though OM tried, and I honestly think H was wrapped in almost the exact same thing. So, like I said, I understand. He needs to not go back there, and I will spend the next 2 days doing my damndest (sp?) to make sure he doesn't.

Thank you, LM, for wanting to post to me the other night. Sorry I was ****** earlier. "Nothing" or "Seemingly never-ending saga", I'm going to hang around here, if you don't mind...

Well, I hardly ever believe any of the WS's here, but I'm leaning a little bit toward believing your husband.

The main thing is that he is agreeing to quit his job. Most won't do that. I would suck it up and let him give the 2 week notice.

Hey girl you do what you got to do to get what you want. Please do NOT apologize to me for anything, that is the least of your worries. If I give an unappreciated or unpopular opinion I should be able to take it. This isn't a "popularity" contest for me, so it is ok.

You have made some great strides with all of this. I wish you only the best.

Lem.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

He could give his two weeks, but ask to be let go as soon as possible. Family emergency.

Hi Julie ~

Well, his answer wasn't as extreme as it might have been. (ie she's stalking me and you are nuts).

But I think the jury is still out. You really don't know how bad it is or isn't. And 2 weeks is a long time (if he does give notice as promised).

I think he's sincere, I do, about keeping away from her but feeling obligated to be fair to his boss. He & I have had some great days together lately and I'm feeling a lot more assured about things in general, and it shows. I do believe he'd do his best to just work, away from her, for 2 weeks. But the risk is higher than I'm comfortable with now that she's taken up poetry.

He's gone to bed, and I didn't bring it up again tonight. In the morning I'll point out a few things to him and ask that he give it some serious thought, not do anything till we talk again, and try to have a definite plan of action by tomorrow evening. I do think I'll get him to quit now, but I don't think overwhelming him with too many "demands" was the proper way to get it done. I'm of course very eager to get to re-building. My guess is there won't be a big withdrawal, though I could be wrong...

How about doing some counseling with the Harley's?

Obviously the 2 of you both have weaknesses that lead you both towards affairs.

I am a firm believer that if anything more is going on, it will come out in the wash.

Counseling w/the Harleys is indeed on the wish list, though at this time we cannot afford it. However, we're working on getting back into MC - to be accompanied by some IC for us both. And more leisure time together, conversations about nothing at all, etc. He's been open to the information I've printed from this site and although I really loathe reading (I'm the type who never finishes a book - waits till it comes out on audio) I plan to pick up SAA & HN/HN. Our options are a little bit limited due to available funds, but I do think we're both committed to trying.

Well I guess this was to be expected - some sort of "conflict" that is. This morning I told him I know how he feels about leaving his boss stranded, and I respect that about him - the fact that he won't do that to people - but to please think about a few things: 1. if his boss had a "family emergency" he wouldn't give the employees 2 weeks before he closed the doors, he'd just do what's best for his family. 2. I have an interview Wed. evening (1st day he works there) and other plans on Saturday (3rd day, I'm actually trying to get tickets to a football game which he'd be THRILLED to go to, well usually anyway) 3. I respect his respect for his boss, but his boss isn't my concern right now.

He started to get angry with me. His boss is to be on vacation this week (I knew about this a while ago, so I don't suspect it's a convenient lie) so how can he find somebody to cover 3 days when he's not there? He then said he wants to give him at least a week...I do think I should be open to compromise, I don't want "my way or no way" and I do appreciate his understanding in this matter thus far...but I don't know this chick, other than the fact she's obviously love struck, and married or not married, she "dreams of one day being with" my husband! I'm afraid she'll REALLY pull out all the stops knowing he's almost gone. And I'm not sure we'll ever get to the NC letter, given how this is now going.

MB Forum experts, what are you thinking? I think he needs the week, I should allow him that, to feel like himself and to show I haven't completely lost trust in HIM. How do I make this work?

Julie, how about agreeing to the week on the condition he promise no contact write her a no contact letter? Here are some samples of what it should say; just change to suit your situation [it should be written together] http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=018918;p=0#000000

OH Melody, we thought I was going to "get off easy" didn't we? You probably didn't, but I was really pleased with how well things went - last night.

OK, so he came home this morning, to talk. I cried again - I'm really trying to be strong but I'm so hurt and scared and heartbroken that all I can't hold it back anymore!

He's miserable, said he knows quitting/NC w/OW is the right thing to do, but he woke up feeling awful and he's not sure what he wants to do - generally speaking, he isn't happy. We've had this discussion before, recently. He feels like he's being forced to do something he doesn't want to do...before you jump, let me explain: By profession he does roofing/siding/gutters. He loves the job but physically it's really taking a toll so technically he's only doing that p/t & the other (OW-enriched) p/t. It's working for him. He knows he let someone in and he can't have contact w/her anymore but now, when his schedule was suiting him, HE has to give it up and change his life. Furthermore, while he knows that's what it takes to prove to me that we'll be "safe", where's his safety? He goes on to say how young we were when we got married, that we've both changed so much, we've gone thru this THOUSANDS of times over the past 8 years, and he's not certain he shouldn't just leave. He's not sure I'm "the one" and wishes sometimes I'd just tell him to GET OUT so that he at least knows what he has to do.

This has gone from OK to horrible. We had a great week together - we do that sometimes, but "history repeats itself" and he's tired of this being so much work, to just land in the same spot. I am just beside myself. I think he has valid points and all I hold in my hand is hope. And love.

Some of these have in them that the only contact they can have from here on out, is the friendly professional contact. What if we did that? And he cuts back to 2 days/week instead of 3?

Here I'm trying to compromise, to make things easier for him, when he basically just told me he doesn't even want me anymore. I guess I shouldn't even bother. Logic/rationalism: GONE.

I changed my mind about him. He is babbling. HE doesn't need safety. YOU didn't betray him. Tell him you need no contact immediately. He needs to find another job. If it doesn't fit his schedule, tough.

I'm lost. What's the difference?

Sounds like good reason to leave! AND, he's not quitting immediately, either way, so again here I am...screwed.

Julie,

When LM said something wsn't right, I felt it too, and now with your h's latest reaction, believer is right - he is babbling.

I am not saying he is lying to you, but I think perhaps he had feelings back for this OW? Or is addicted to the attention, as he is feeling the fear of loosing her, and making excuses up or justifying (the marriage has changed, blah blah blah)

You aren't screwed. Things take time. You have Plan A - which you need to do yet - do a GREAT plan A. And you NEED to look further into this. Like someone said - have him tailed if you need to. Learn more about what you are dealing with.

It may be that it is just exactly what he is telling you and he is not lying, but his behavior in your last post doesn't sound like a man where it is one sided and only one has feelings....

And Julie - when I was a WS - I told my H I didn't want him anymore....when H was a WS he actually left me to persue his A, and came back 4 weeks.

I know it's hard to not take it personally, but it's normal for a WS to not want you and use every other excuse in the book as to why - EXCEPT the affair - they will tell you it has nothing to do with her him, it has to do with how things have changed, blah blah blah BABBLE.

Don't look at it as a reason to give up. Your fight is far from done K? Have you bought HN/HN and SAA?

No, I haven't purchased the books. Guess I should do that today. It hurts so bad to be so confident about something, especially when it's yourself (I've got SO MANY issues that likely caused exactly what we're going thru, and he's really tried to help me/believe in me, I totally understand his lack of enthusiasm) and have someone you love express such lack of belief! He asked me how do I know he's the one for me - is it because of time invested, or the kids, or something else? I told him I don't get to know who's "the one" but that he's the one I feel is worth my time & effort, based on the last 8 years, full of us choosing one another. These problems/issues he's bringing up today aren't new - we've mulled them over for YEARS - but now I'm asking him to do something to change his life/schedule, AGAIN, and he's got no guarantees that "THIS TIME" will make it all right. He doesn't want to have to put his body thru 5 days of his day job and I understand that, I don't want it for him.

Sure, I've got Plan A, and that's something I didn't have all the other times. But: 1. He's going to work tomorrow, and probably Friday and Saturday, of this week, no matter what; and 2. I'm not sure he's open to all this, as it seemed he was last night (and all last week I was so confident he would be)

We've separated before. Several times. He's always come back. But I'm getting too old for this. I want to get it togther. I know this is only temporary, I know, but right now I'm sitting here just feeling like all hope is lost. And he's at work trying to focus while miserable thoughts control his every move.

You don't need him to be open to Plan A - Plan A is all about bettering yourself and showing him what a great catch you are - making sure his needs are all met, no LB or DJ, but also making sure your boundaries are enforced. If he isn't going to quit work - Plan A still works. Plan A is mostly used for people that are still in affairs.....you really need to buy the book SAA and read up on Plan A, as it explains it there. The books go into much more detail than the forum.

Melody Lane can also help you here as she is very knowledgeable about Plan A. The Buts you mentioned wont affect plan A as PLan A is in your hands and not his.

Dorry/Melody: thank you, and please don't leave me now!

Also, to you both: shall I start with SAA? And, I got you, no LBs, but what is DJ? (Disrespectful judgements?)

He IS willing to quit - doesn't want to, but willing so I feel safe. It means he'll have to go back to other, danger-to-physical-health job 5 days/week, which he doesn't want to do and I don't want for him, but he's at the other (OW enriched) at least another week. Should we look at him staying, down to 2x/week with NC letter pertaining to ONLY necessary/professional contact?

I don't think he's lying. I do think he let himself feel too much, but I do think that when he realized it he pulled away. I believe this because (A) I want to believe it and (B) I've been thru it, so although hard to believe, I know it's possible to pull away and still work there.

Seriously, he's looking to resolve that issue tonight when he gets home and I'd really like to get past that one too, so we can move on & deal with the other stuff as needed. I know he doesn't have to participate in Plan A, it's all about me, but I guess I'm really looking for some help in the above mentioned areas. Help a sister out?

Got the book, SAA. Good news: it's thin enough that I just might finish it, this year, given my commitment to the subject. Bad news: I checked SAA out of the library, because I need it.

You people are my friends now. Possibly my only friends. FYI.

...and I can't find out her last name. I called but got nowhere!

...and it seems I'm going to have to give it my all and then some. I still have a lot of unanswered questions. Do I try to get them all answered now, or expect that while being the greatest wife in the world more answers will come, naturally?

I'm getting from my reading that there is a such thing as TOO much talk, but we are going for the whole truth, right? So how do I go about getting that?

^^Bump^^

I have an awful feeling in my stomach and tomorrow he's going there, to tell the boss his last day is Saturday. I'm afraid I'm worried about H breaking NC just as much as OW. Can I talk to him about this, or do I avoid this type of conversation for a while, and just stick to Plan A?

Julie, I am sorry I posted that link now, because I somehow missed that letter about "professional" contact. That is a HUGE MISTAKE, don't even go there. Imagine telling a chronic alcoholic that he has to quit drinking but can only have "business" drinks? Do you think that will work?

Contact is contact.

Harley is ADAMENT that all contact end, even if you have to move to another state. Julie, don't back down on this boundary or you will live to regret it. We have people on this forum who deeply regret it because they are now dealing with full blown affairs YEARS after D-Day because they didn't insist on no contact.

There is NOT part time restaurant job that is worth your marriage. He can easily get another part time job.

You should speak openly and honestly with him about your fears. Plan simply means: exposure, meeting needs and avoiding lovebusters. It does not mean avoiding discussion of your feelings.

Well if anyone has any words of wisdom for me today, I'm all ears. I've got an awful feeling in my stomach that I just can't shake. He's home w/me today, so maybe I'll work up the nerve to share with him that I've got a bad feeling and see if I can "get more out of him". He goes to work tonight. He's going to tell his boss his last day is Sat, not sure if he's planning to talk w/OW or not. So very scared...

Julie~

I agree with Melody on this, why not be completely open and honest about what you are feeling...do it in a very nonaccusatory and gentile manner. I certainly don't think that this will do any harm. If done properly, it may actually give him a feeling of safety so that he feels free to share with you, get you guys started on the right track towards a more intimate marriage and quell your feelings of sickness. You won't know until you try...

Mrs. Wondering

You're right. I'm just so scared! This is all just too real...it was almost easier when he was being secretive, you know?! I know that wasn't healthy for any of us, but it surely took a lot less work and doubt...

H & I took the day off together today. I was trying to work up the courage to talk with him again, about the awful feeling I've had, but he approached me first. Went something like this:

H: So I'm going to talk to (boss) today, I'll tell him my last day is Saturday.

Me: He's bound to ask why...

H: I'm just going to tell him with work & everything it's too much. He doesn't need to know. Nobody needs to know.

Me: OK, what will you tell OW?

H: I'll tell her the same thing. <<<Long pause>>> What do you want me to tell her?

Then he goes into how she's not going to call him, he doesn't call her, he used to but not since the month and a half (or so) ago that I talked to him. (PRE-MB) I reminded him this isn't about the job, it's about NEVER EVER seeing or talking to OW again, for life. He agreed.

Me: Well, the Dr. whose methods I've been following recommends you write a letter.

<<<Long pause>>>

H: OK.

I printed off the "guidelines" for the letter, then gave him some paper. I've got an interview soon, so I headed off to get ready. Later I asked him if he'd taken a look, he said yes. Asked if he'd written it, he said no, "Just let me handle it, OK?" It was then time to leave.

I know he's feeling cornered, and he left sort of angry. This is our 1st LB (though it's not technically LB) in over a week.

I called him a few minutes after he'd left.

Me: I know you're feeling cornered right now, and I need you to understand I just want this over & to work past it.

H: Yes, I am feeling cornered.

Me: Well, this is something we're supposed to do together, so to speak.

H: I don't agree.

<<<Long pause>>>

H: Look, I'm going to talk to her. She's not going to call me, I won't call her, that's it. Will you just trust me?

Me: I really want to trust you. I want to do this right.

SILENCE

I let him off the phone, told him we'll talk AFTER the fact, and now I've got to think about getting to my interview. I know I lost control there, but I DO trust him to do "the right thing". What we're experiencing here is some babble, indeed, but I've only gotten that from him when he's feeling pressured. Hence, once he's gone from there and NC is in place, babble will subside. OK, flame away (2x4??) if you must!!

Well H just called me, he let the boss know he's done and OW too. Boss is trying to get him to stay, OW says she saw this coming. H told me, "I don't think you understand...she totally respects my decision, she won't call me and I won't call her. Boy I really want to believe him, I really do, but all I can think about now is getting my hands on the cell phone records when they're available. This week alone has been such a roller coaster! Thanks to you all who are probably sick of me by now, for caring enough to offer suggestions and insight.

Julie, are you sure you can't see the cell phone records NOW online?

Well, I believed your husband a couple of days ago, but don't now. To make you feel safe, he needs to write a no contact letter. The letter should say that he made a big mistake and loves YOU, and wants to work on the marriage. It should add that he will not contact her, and she needn't contact him for any reason.

Most WS's would rather talk to the OP in person. Mine went to the motel with her to "explain" no contact.

You deserve the safety and peace of knowing what was said. He may still be valuing her feelings over yours.

Hi Melody - no, I can't check phone records now. They aren't available until the statement prints, which in my case won't be for about another week. They're not available real-time; I confirmed this yesterday.

Believer - I agree completely, and it seemed like I was going to get cooperation with the letter and then ended up not. That is cause for worry and I can't help but think they're meeting up right now or something, but since I don't have the letter then all I've got in my arsenal is Plan A - a wonderful, seamless, fool-proof Plan A.

Well folks, we're in Plan A full swing, and I've been doing well, but H is walking around either grumpy or sort of lost looking. Is this withdrawal? Actually, in his case I think it's more like resentment towards me and somewhat himself for "forcing" him to quit, but anyway, is it normal for him to be a bit distant in the first few days? I'm just being as loving and caring and attentive as I can and while I'm sure he notices & appreciates, he isn't reciprocating much - which I think is probably "normal" - but it's a little odd.

Believer, I wanted to address something you posted to me the other day: "The letter should say that he made a big mistake and loves YOU, and wants to work on the marriage."

I know we're one step behind in having no letter, and I'm sure his conversation didn't include all the details about me & our marriage. However, to be honest, I'm not sure he's convinced he wants to be with ME and OUR MARRIAGE is what he wants. So, again, I think all I've got & all I can rely on here is the ULTIMATE Plan A...wouldn't you agree?

Being distant is normal for the WS. I would still insist on the NC letter. I have noticed that WS's that refuse to make the BS feel safer by writing one usually go back to contact.

I guess you can stay in Plan A for awhile and watch for contact, but don't be surprised if it happens.

I honestly don't know how to approach this, or ask (again) for a NC letter, without it turning into a huge LB! He may or may not argue, may or may not decide our M is NOT worth all this (he's already been questioning this - or babbling(?)). Of course I'd feel better if the letter was there, but maybe - just maybe, he's able to maintain NC HIS way. I know he didn't go to a hotel for "closure" and I'm pretty confident they didn't even meet up, but tonight he IS going to go out after work, leaving the opportunity for phone calls/encounters. I don't know her last name, don't know her phone number, don't know if she's still married...all I can really rely on is trends in his cell phone bill next week. I just don't know...

Bump, I really need your suggestions here. I'm doing a lot to make myself out to be the great wife here. His favorite sandwich when he gets home, house more tidy than ever before (one of his top-ranking EN), spontaneous back rubs, asking how his day was, etc. However, in my last post I indicated he's being a bit distant. Friendly, somewhat affectionate, but definitely more distant. Maybe part of WD, though he's got tonight & tomorrow before he'll never see her again so I'm not sure if WD can or has really set in just yet.

SOOOooo...the question: aside from what I've listed, has any of you ever felt like you're still not doing enough? There are times we'll be sitting on the couch together, and I don't want to smother him, but I've got nothing to offer as far as conversation...what to do? Is it OK to let him go off on his own a bit? Is uncomfortable silence a form of LB? I don't want to seem too clingy, but I don't want to ruin this. What do you think?