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Lexxxy #1486036 09/29/05 12:01 PM
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In children with Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD), there is an ongoing pattern of uncooperative, defiant, and hostile behavior toward authority figures that seriously interferes with the youngster's day to day functioning.

I have a nephew that amoung a ton of letters describing his condition ODD is in there as well. My sister has been through he!! and back with him. It's strained her marriage. After a couple of years of struggling including 6 months in foster care, many drug regiments, and a lot of TLC he is intergrating back into the family.


Hugz, Thoughtz, & Prayerz

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I'm sorry Bill -- I in no way meant you. I went back and read this thread again. There are a lot of well meant ideas and suggestions. It was really just one comment that inflamed me...
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...give your daughter some much needed parenting

I think thats out of line and quite disrespectful.

Lexxxy #1486038 09/29/05 01:35 PM
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Sorry it took me a while to respond to all of you. I fought a migraine all yesterday and didn't feel up to much. And thank you for all your input.

First, an update on my dating situation. We are speaking. I am going to spend a few hours at his place this evening. However, things are still tense, and we both tend to get emotional over the deal. His issues are that as a guy he's an "action person" and there's nothing he can do because he's not her parent, and that frustrates him. Equally, he's frustrated because he can think of all these things that I could do (that I can't think of on my own), and he doesn't understand why I don't do them. He's also hurt because I have issues trusting that he'll remain with me through this, but on the other hand he can't promise that it won't become too much so it's a catch-22. And he's frustrated with my lack of confidence in myself, because I have the tendency to put myself down, especially when it comes to my parenting skills (or lack thereof). So I'm not sure where things will go. I'm fairly certain it will remain a distance relationship until my DD is out of the house. I don't know if I can do that for 2 years. (And yes, if she's still there at 18 and not working and not going to school, her bags WILL be on the front lawn, as hard as that may be.) So, we'll take it day by day and see if the tension settles any.

As for my replies/thoughts:

John,

Thanks for your continued support. It isn't easy. She did better for a while, and then just crashed again once she turned 16.

Sunny (and Alluring, and Bellemere),

Boarding school, boot camp, etc. aren't options as I don't have the funds to do it. There is nothing in savings. I don't have the money to pay on loans (I'm not even making a car payment--am limping by until my son is out of college in 2 years).

As for Dr. Phil's approach of quitting jobs and doing whatever it takes, that's what it would take to be able to sit on her 24/7 and make sure she didn't go where she wasn't supposed to. However, that may be an option for Dr. Phil, but it's not for a single mom like me with zero savings. And even then, I truly don't think more discipline at 16 is what's going to help.

But I am glad to hear that you have had success with your child. It is very difficult to watch them just throw their lives away, and very frustrating to keep giving and loving when they seem to be on a mission to drive one insane.

Faith,

Thanks. I'm not completely writing off this guy yet. We are talking. We just have to figure out how to get past the DD issues without getting so emotional and frustrated or it's going to ruin everything else. One day at a time, I guess (not easy for me because I want guarantees).

LH,

Yes, you have been here to see me go through pretty much everything. I haven't had the time yet today to follow your link. But I wanted to just say a couple things. First, there actually have been times where I've been so angry and so frustrated at what my DD is doing or not doing that the legal obligation is about all that keeps me trying to help her. It is heartbreaking watching her totally throw her life away because she's so darned self-centered and defiant and lazy. And I live in fear that the minute I actually do get tough with her (it's coming), that she'll get angry, leave, and get herself killed and I'll blame myself forever. That's part of my lack of action. But I realize that allowing her to get by with what she's doing right now is not going to help her become a self-sufficient adult.

Second, you said:

Quote
Let me ask you something, how would you feel if everyone you loved abandoned you physically or emotionally, blamed you, and branded a big ‘L’ on your forehead for loser? You’re hard enough on yourself as it is but what would that do to your self-esteem, ego, pride, etc… Quite honestly, I think you’ve already shown how you’d react to a degree. You seek love and acceptance or you create a pattern of self-destructive behaviors. Now how is your daughter reacting?

While I'll never know for sure, I think a huge part of why she's so difficult now is because at a time when she was really starting to fail at school and she was crossing from middle school to high school (new "older" friends with transportation, much harder classes and higher expectations, and her school dropped her from special ed. at the end of 8thg grade--a totally wrong thing to do), her father started seeing the floozy and our entire world collapsed. I went into a downward spiral and wasn't there mentally for her as a mom for probably 6 months. We were in survival mode--I bought food, I made sure they had a house, I took her to school, I worked, and I went to bed. That's it. So I do think when she needed parents the most, we were both gone (her dad was always gone--and I don't think essentially single-parenting a very difficult child has good outcomes most of the time anyway).

That said, because I do believe she feels everyone abandoned her EXCEPT ME, I've been way to easy on her and have tried too hard to be there to talk to, to be a listening ear when she needed to vent, and by giving in when she wants something because I didn't want to see her hurt anymore. But because she has ADHD, ODD, and she's an extreme "taker", wired very much genetically like her father in all respects, she took and took and now just expects the world to hand things to her, and if the world doesn't hand something to her, well, she does whatever she needs to do to just take it anyway.

So I do try and focus on the positives, but it is tough watching the child I gave birth to just make dumb choice after dumb choice, because I see no future for her right now. All I see is someone who will bounce from friend to friend once she's an adult, not hold a job, and likely get involved in drugs and alcohol (I fear she has her dad's addictive tendencies), and possibly meet an early death. That's a sickening thought, but it's reality. The odds for ADHD, ODD kids with addictive personalities who quit school aren't good.

LetSTry,

Al-anon, while maybe beneficial for many, isn't going to happen. First, I'm already too busy with working, the DD issues, keeping up my house, and dating. I'm trying to figure out a way to add a little exercise to my schedule, and haven't succeeded at that. I have no desire to sit with a group of women (or men) and discuss the effects of alcohol. Nothing against your suggestion at all. I'm just saying that I know me well enough to know that right now, because my heart's not in it and I'm not a good "group therapy" candidate anyway (I don't like sitting in groups and discussing issues--I'm a one-on-one person), it isn't going to happen.

I do believe that my ex's addictions and just his behavior in general had a negative effect on my DD. But I also believe it has to do with her basic personality, the ADHD and the ODD and the struggles they've caused. Example: My son, while more self-centered and lazy than I'd like to see him, is doing well at college, doesn't touch alcohol or drugs, and seems to be a fairly functional adult who has been in a relationship with a very nice girl for 2 years now. He was parented exactly the same as his sister was--in fact, got less attention overall than she did because she's been far needier and has required more.

As for the guy I'm seeing, I am very open to his suggestions. The frustration is that he gives them to me but I've had a hard time following through, and it frustrates him because he can't do anything and he's all about action. And when I say, "what would you do if your child did this?" all he can say is that he doesn't know, because his own children would have never gotten to the point she's at because they had a strong father figure who made it clear who was boss. My DD has never had that. So we frustrate each other. He's not said he can't see me anymore. What he said, among other things, is that he can't see himself ever living under the same roof with her. She has potentially at least 2 more years under that roof if she chooses not to leave. I'm not sure I can do a 2-year weekends-only relationship. So, it's tense.

JE,

Amen! You seem to be someone who understands where I'm coming from here. I have not been a perfect parent--far from it. I've been way too lenient, because I wanted to trust her and give her the benefit of the doubt. But there's no guarantee she'd have turned out without these problems even if I had been more strict. And the same parenting seemed to work for my son. ADHD and ODD are tought to work with, and she also refuses to take any kind of medication for the ADHD which makes life more difficult for her. And although she's only 16 so is not legally an adult, her therapist and her teachers and even people I know have admitted that at this point there is nothing more I can do where it comes to controlling what she does. All I can do is allow her to make her "adult" decisions but face the "adult" consequences of them and hope she wakes up before it's too late.

KK, thanks for your thoughts. I'm hoping we can work through these issues.

Kayla,

I don't believe I'm addicted to addicts. The only person I've been with who was an addict was my ex, and I married him long before I realized that. My daughter has addictive tendencies, but she's my daughter--not much choice there to be with vs. not be with her. The guy I'm dating is not addicted to anything except for maybe fall football and donuts. Those I can deal with.

As for parenting, I don't think anyone with a "normal" child can understand what it's like to attempt to parent a child like my DD. And that problem is further compounded by the fact that her father is out of the picture so I am her only parent. But I'm doing the best I can without a parent's instruction book for defiant, ADHD teens. Her schools couldn't deal with her. The therapist didn't even reschedule more appointments last time because it's pointless. My DD is going to do what she wants to do and the only thing I can do is provide food, clothing, and shelter (as required by law) and take everything else away because she doesn't deserve it. That's what I hadn't yet done, but am in the process of doing.

Lexxxy,

My daughter and I are living proof of the quote you posted:
Quote
Treatment of oppositional defiant disorder has poor outcomes. When the parents are overly restrictive, the child fights back more, resulting in a power struggle. Some individual therapies and family therapies have been successful, but not to a great extent.


Even when we were seeking therapy, the mission of the last therapist wasn't to tell me how to be more restrictive and step down on her, but it was to try and find a common ground that we could both live with.

Where a normal child will often change their behavior if consequences are imposed (aka, grounding), it's fuel for an ODD child's fire and come ****** or high water, they'll find a way to challenge it or get past it. (Grounded, you say? She's just split while I was at work and be gone for a few days. Call her in as a runaway? She's split again, for longer, and she'd steal my money. Lock her out of my room? She'll bust the door latch while I'm gone.)

AGG,

You might be partly right. We've only been together for a few months, but we've moved very fast and spent a lot of time together, so we may hit that stage faster than some people who are moving slower. We've also had a lot of things tossed into our relationship that generally don't cloud the beginning stages, mainly having to do with my daughter and her issues, because she's destroyed my house a few times, she's taken off and gone 100's of miles away and then found herself rideless when her ride got busted for DWI, and she's gotten kicked out of school.

I think his comments and his reasoning are very well supported. If I had "normal" child and I was dating someone with a child like my DD, I'd be hesitant, too, especially this early in a relationship. And then I get all emotional on him and that doesn't help anything.

Anyway, I guess time will tell. Patience--something I'm not good at.
----------------------------------------------------------

Now, as for this whole hubbub with my daughter and what I mean when I say she crashed, here's what's up:

She broke up with her boyfriend mid-summer and started hanging with her previous group of older friends again. She started breaking curfew--heck, she just quit coming home at all on weekends and even some weekdays. She lifts money from my purse every time I have cash in it and forget to hide it somewhere (trivial amounts because I never carry more than $10, so nothing that a cop would entertain filing a report on). She wears my clothes and trashes them and uses my makeup without my permission. I locked my bedroom door and she broke the latch and splintered the door. She completely trashes my house. She has brought friends in after I've gone to bed and I found one of them sleeping in her bed with her when I got up the next morning (a guy--he's lucky they were clothed and that I had to be at jury duty or it would have been uglier). She is verbally abusive to me each time I say something she doesn't like. And once she turned 16, along with putting piercings in her face after I said no because they will affect her ability to get a job, she totally gave up on school and the finally kicked her out about 2 weeks ago because she was failing her classes. This is an ALTERNATIVE HIGH SCHOOL! She doesn't have to do homework! No effort is really involved besides just appearing there and working while you're in class. But she's out. And she's not working. And she won't even make the effort to get a drivers license. She just expects that I buy her food and clothes and that I give her money for all the local band shows she attends. Her life totally revolves around herself and her entertainment. And she's said things to the guy I'm dating that have made me cringe. Fortunately, he is a special ed teacher of high schoolers, so is somewhat used to shocking comments, but he should not have to deal with them. He is entitled to respect. He shows it to her. But because she's defiant, it's her mission to see if she can either shock him to death or piss him off, I think.

And through all this I've listened to her when she's sad or frustrated or ranting about her issues, waited on her, taken her places, tried to do things with her like take her out to dinner with me, etc. etc. And all I get in return is more of the same the moment I refuse to give her money or buy her something she doesn't need, or suggest that she can't just sit on her rearend and not go to school or not work.

So, yes, it's been very difficult lately, and sometimes I resent her so much for what she's doing that I am ready for her to just move out, if that's what she thinks she needs to do.

LL

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I wish I had something useful to offer you. LL, but I don't; this is a bit out of my experience. Like Lexxxy, I was thinking ODD. If she hasn't been evaluated for this, she should be. Untreated ODD can lead to serious problems in adults - both emotional and legal.

You say she's been very difficult lately. How does this correlate with your starting to see this new man?

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Check,

She already has an official diagnosis by a psychiatrist of ADHD/ODD and possibly some form of depression. She refuses to take medication for any of it. She refuses help because she doesn't see that she has a problem. And because she's not suicidal/homicidal, she doesn't qualify for any kind of inpatient treatment, only outpatient. We've been through several therapists with no success until the last one where we had limited success for a while.

It's very disheartening and yes, she is very defiant to authority. A year or so ago when she ran away and I was filing a missing person's report with the cop when she bopped back into the house, he was sternly talking to her and she told him to F-off. That's blatant disrespect for a very high level of authority. She's told school principals the same thing. The more someone gets in her face and tries to show her who is boss, the more she's going to fight them. I've found it works much better to just matter-of-factly say "this is what I'm doing" and do it, and attempt to not let her rile me. But it has to be something I can actually do. For example, I can't force her to stay home or ground her because she'll just leave the minute I step out the door. But I can take her phone, her internet, and refuse to give her dime one for anything. That's what my current plan is. I'm just waiting for all ****** to break loose when she finds out that she has no computer and that her cell phone will no longer work after 10/1.

But no one is going to just sit in my house and do nothing with their life, and expect me to fund their conveniences. These items are not needs. So I don't know what else to do at this point besides pray for her, and try to remain, as my date puts it "in functional mode and not emotion mode". I was running in the latter for the last two days. I'm still struggling today, but am a little calmer.

LL

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HI LL!!

I am not saying you should do this, but it is an option...
Have you considered having her emancipated? If she becomes an emancipated minor, she would no longer be your responsibility.

I know she is still your little girl, and you don't want anything bad to happen to her. But you deserve a life, too.

Again, I am not advising you to do this, but only to let you know that it is an option. You seem to be at your wit's end.


May the Lord Bless You and Keep You, John Rahrrrrrr!!
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Wow, LL. I have to give you kudos on doing the tough love thing. I couldn't agree more with your rationale. Let it break loose. Be calm and prepare for the encounter. Let her know that the party's over and nothing's going to change until she agrees to take her medication, work with her therapist and show you and others some respect. Ground her. Lock the V-chip on the TV. If you can lock the phones, to that. When she breaks the rules, calmly take something else away from her. It makes no differece that she's going to get mad, leave when you aren't there, run away, etc. Be tough and consistent. I may not do any good, but if you do, one day when she's older, she will understand and respect you for it. I agree with your fellow. Don't show her your emotion. Shoot come here to vent that, but only let her see the mom, who is calm, resolved and finished with her crap.

Oh, and if she goes out and gets into trouble, do not bale her out. Let her sit right there in the juvenile retention center for a day or so. Usually juvenile court judges are more than happy to meet with parents privately to discuss a wayward child. A good brush with the law and a smart judge, working with an engaged parent, can often scare a kid straight.

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LL,
Several years ago, I had to do the Tough Love thing with both my H (Plan B) and 21 year old son at the same time. Talk about TOUGH love. But it can be done. I changed the locks on the doors, gave party-boy son all "his" papers in the filing cabinet (made copies of banking for my info) and told my him to be his own parent. Holidays and birthdays were hard, but I made sure to contact him on those dates. He went to Alaska and worked, then Georgia, where he settled down, became a manager at a bread store, and the next time I saw him (2.5 years later) was a changed young adult. He's not perfect, but he stays with me once in a while (he's just completed 2 years of long-distance trucking - the longest job he's ever held) and I am beginning to enjoy his company.

It can be done, but make sure you have your ducks in a row first. It helped me to go to Nar-Anon because a lot of parents there have to do Tough Love, too.

A question for you - if your daughter was ten years old and misbehaving, what would your BF's thoughts be about discipling her?

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Lexxxxy,

Normally I am quite restrained in how I communicate here - but either you haven't been reading LL and awakened to the fact that she's parenting HERSELF when she talks about her daughter being oppositional (read her history when she describes herself and her sister), or how many times LL has been encouraged to get help for her anger (breaking things, screaming, etc. and she escalates things to the point where she's out of control and remorseful/ashamed. She hasn't done ANYTHING to address these things, and yet she's wanting a man to be in her life to make her feel a sense of worth. I can understand why even though a man at this point is only going to have to become part of the dysfunction to survive, or up and leave if he's mentally healthy enough to recognize this is beyond his ability to fix. Adn then LL is back in the "I'm ugly - nobody wants me" mode again.

- and btw, I have worked with oppositional teens before in a psychiatric hospital, and yes they can be out of control and they know how to work the system by the time they are LL's daughter's age - but more often than not, there's a woeful lack of any kind of consistent boundaries and parents are unwilling to learn and practice any kind of consistent boundary/discipline that deals with this. There are so many resources out there, if LL would first seek help for herself and her own anti-social and oppositional behavior. I haven't seen that happening.

LL - have you taken the anger management class yet? Do you use the free mental health services that most counties offer at little or no cost to people in your situation? I know these have been mentioned before but there's always been a reason why you couldn't or you've ignored the suggestions altogether. If this were my daughter, and I was realizing it was life-or-death for her (which it is), I'd be knocking on every door from the local to the state government to find support for both of us. I would ask until, instead of stopping at the first obstacle!

Anyway - I've been shot down as not understanding the situation so you have your social support to continue on the woe-is-me plight. Good luck and God bless.


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
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kayla,

Generally I don't get too testy on here at anyone directly. But your comments frustrate me, because you really have no clue what it's like to personally parent a child like my daughter. If I stink so bad at parenting, why is my son an honor student with an academic scholarship at UI? Two kids--same house, same parenting. Working with oppositional teens at a psychiatric hospital isn't like parenting one 24/7 for the last 16 years. I'll admit boundaries were lacking as she grew up, or they were undermined by my now ex-husband, especially when I traveled out of town on business (which, by the way, was his idea--he didn't want me to give up the good job I had and take a lower paying one were I wouldn't have had the travel.). I did my best given the situation. I wasn't a perfect parent. Maybe you are (wait--do you even have children??)

As for my anger outbursts, I think you should be sure of how things are now before you actually suggest that I'm oppositional and antisocial. (And where did anti-social come from?? Just because I don't want to go to al-anon and I don't do a lot socially, that makes me anti-social??? How about I just like being a homebody?? I'm very social and very well-liked at work and no one there would say I'm oppositional. And if I have to go somewhere and meet new people, I can do well at that, too (ask my boyfriend--I've met his entire family and they all like me, too). I have opinions, yes. And I can be stubborn. But truly oppositional--very seldom! And how do YOU know that I need a man in my life to give me a sense of worth? Ever thought maybe I want him there because I'm ready to share my life with somoene else? Is that a wrong thing? Did I not wait long enough after my divorce to suit you? And if he doesn't wise up and leave me, you suggest it means he's mentally unstable?? I'm sorry, and this is not ladylike, but WTF?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> You perhaps should rethink before you accuse someone of things like these.

Yes, I have a very quick temper and definitely did have some anger management issues, but they showed their face with situations related to my now ex-husband and with my daughter, when she is really out-of-control. I'm not proud of how I've reacted, but given some of the situations that have triggered my anger, I challenge anyone not to react with at least a raised voice and perhaps some choice words after they've lived with what I have for a while. I tolerate a LOT before I snap and I am improving with time. Having had time to be out of the dysfunctional marriage has made a lot of difference in my level of calm and my patience, though yes, I still raise my voice and let loose a few choice words from time to time with my daughter.

As for free or low-cost mental health services, someone who makes what I make does not qualify for it. I have private health insurance with some mental health benefits. I've sought therapy on many occasions for my daughter. She chooses not to cooperate, and the last therapist did not see a need for her to come again because it's just a waste of everyone's time. My daughter is at an age where she has to want the help. Forcing it is just throwing money down the drain. The general consensus from everyone who knows her and me better than you do is to let her reap the consequences of her actions (no school, no job--then no phone, no computer, no money, no anything other than a roof, basic clothes, and some food in the house). She's 16--by law in Iowa she can quit school without a parent's permission. The state won't touch her because they have bigger fish to fry. If they come to my home they'll find a relatively clean, newer surburban house in a safe area of town filled with decent food and clothes. They will not remove her from this home now that she's of age to quit school. And she's very good at staying out of trouble with the law. Other than her runaways a year or so ago, the truancy that got her expelled from her first HS almost 2 years ago, and a tobacco possession also 2 years ago, she has nothing on her record. She has committed no crimes (or at least not been caught). She flies under the radar. I've made many calls and asked what can be done. There are few answers.

So please cool off. I am fairly open-minded and I listen to what people say, unless I feel that they're accusing me of something.

LL

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As for my anger outbursts, I think you should be sure of how things are now before you actually suggest that I'm oppositional and antisocial.

Well LL, coming from someone who deals with people who actually get angry enough to kill (I am a prosecutor), I would say you don't have a serious anger problem. There are lots of people who would have killed a man for what he did to you.

Again, I am so sorry for your daughter's situation. I can offer you hope that she will be 18 in two years. I suggest that you plan for that. When she turns 18, it might be a good idea to change the locks, write her a letter telling her that she is not to enter your home, and tell all the neighbors that she does not have permission to be on your property.

I am not saying you should do this, but only telling you that it is an option. You are the one paying the bills and you have an absolute right to keep anyone, even your daughter, from destroying your house and stealing your property.

You are a good woman, and the guy is very lucky. (One more time: Big breasts would not make you any better!)


May the Lord Bless You and Keep You, John Rahrrrrrr!!
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As for my anger outbursts, I think you should be sure of how things are now before you actually suggest that I'm oppositional and antisocial.

LL, with the things you put up with from your exH, I think you held your temper very well. This is coming from a prosecutor who deals with people who cannot control themselves on a regular basis.

Perhaps you and the nice guy should put together a 2 year plan.

Last edited by Aslan_the_Lion; 09/30/05 10:28 AM.

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Why do I have a problem with others telling a mother that she essentially needs to write her troubled daughter off and take solace in the fact that she's going to cease to be her problem in two years? While I understand that some children have such serious problems that the parent may have to back away, I cannot imagine that any mother would do this as anything other than a last resort. It would be a heart-wrenching, not to mention life-altering, experience. I'm not so sure that we should be making such comments, especially in this forum.

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Tough love isn't about writing people off. It is treating them as an independent individual capable of making up their own mind and setting boundaries of acceptable behavior for their interaction with you.

It is about saying, "I love you, but I am not going to allow you to treat me this way." It's about saying, "If you choose to pursue this unacceptable behavior towards me then this is going to be the consequence of that behavior." Then you have to follow through, no ifs, ands, or buts. Every time. Consistently.

Tough love shouldn't be a last resort. Tough love should be a first resort. If parents continually "save" their children from the consequences of their decisions, then the children never learn, they never grow up. As much as we would like to, we cannot live our children's lives for them. Some will accept the wisdom of their parents, others have to learn it the hard way on their own. For these children, you have to love them enough to let them go.


~Big Guy

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I understand the concept of tough love, but some of the comments I've read here, go way beyond tough love and they will not accomplish the desired goals if they are not a part of a more comprehensive plan. Hence, my comment: I'm not so sure we should be making such recommendations to a mother, and given the potential dangers, leave this issue to professional, who are actually trained in this area.

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Why am I not surprised that Check doesn't "get it".

Check, the Big Guy is correct one hundred percent and stated very concisely what tough love should be about.

Would you let a stranger come into and destroy your home? Of course not! Then why would you continue to let a child of yours do so?

My oldest daughter did not like the reality of living in a home where there were rules, and at 15 she convinced me that the crowd at school she hung around with were all changing and doing drugs and being bad, and that the teachers were prejudiced against her because of trouble she had been in previously. Her arguments were very convincing - she wanted to go to Florida, live with her dad and start over.

Well her dad is a decent man but has no boundaries and is passive aggressive. Bad combination because he is very permissive and thinks that people will realize how much he sacrifices and then reciprocate.

She took advantage of him. Spent or stole his money all the time. Scammed him on credit cards. Held loud parties with cars coming all hours of the night in the back of the house where she moved to have her own private entrance. Wrecked cars. Didn't show for court appearances so that he lost bail money. Quit school at 16.

Well she is now in jail taking microsoft courses and planning how she is going to be different once she gets out. She is much better in a lot of ways, but she still thinks she is owed. She tells me that she wants to come visit me and her brothers and sister and go shopping! I wrote her back and told her to bring money if she expects to go shopping. She is going to be 21 soon and I am not going to be sucked into buying her a new wardrobe. She has never held a job and earned her own stuff - it is time she learned that one too.

Now if her dad had not bailed her out of those situations over and over again, she might have finished school at school rather than taking a GED in jail... He rescued her rather than letting her learn life lessons the hard way.

And she is the easy daughter - her sister is much harder to deal with emotionally.

Her sister also knows that if she doesn't pull her own weight that she will be out of the house at 18. She currently has a girlfriend who moves from house to house because her folks kicked her out at 18. Good lesson for my daughter to witness. My daughter is working toward her own goals in school and life because she knows there is no free ride once she turns 18. She also learned the meaning of tough love when I sent her to boot camp. She knows that if she messes up enough again I will send her away. I did it twice already - to boot camp and back to her dad's house. She hates her dad because he took her away from me when she was little and then neglected her.

The thing is check, you can love these kids to death and kill them with kindness and even mistreat them and it does not good and makes no difference. The only way these kinds of kids learn is the hard way - by making mistakes and paying the consequences.

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LL,
I've read some of the threads that you have been on, so I know a little about your situation, not as much as I could...
My heart goes out to you. I know it's sad to lose someone you care about and I remember how excited you were about it all when it started. I'm in Iowa too. If you'd like to email me personally, my email is [email]dellarita@mchsi.com.[/email]
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'd like to reach out to you and perhaps there is nothing I can do but maybe listen and oh, I don't know, fix you a really good, strong margarita! ; )
One thing I DID want to say is that I'm a single gal too, I don't have any kids and of course most of the guys I date do. Does your SO have kids?
When you are out there dating and you get more serious with someone, at least *I* know that the kids come with the guy. It's a package deal. Maybe this guy is willing to help out some, or at least try. Can you let him? Maybe he won't have an impact on her at all, but hey, if he's willing, and accepts that you come with some baggage (just like the rest of us!) and you can LET HIM HELP YOU, well, you just never know.
I just wanted to let you know my heart is heavy for you. I know you were excited and living it up, and maybe he just isn't the one and there is someone better, but maybe he might need some time to come to terms with what he's getting into. At any rate, your DD is a part of you, and if he can't accept it all, then he shouldn't have even gotten involved.
My best to you...again, write me if you are interested. I have LOTS of wonderful girlfriends that might benefit you...


"As we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same"- Nelson Mandella
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Let see, how has it been put to me many times...

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results."

Doing what I'm doing over and over (being there and protecting her and helping her) is not working. Must try something different.

And I have an ex-sister-in-law (the ex's sis) who is now 42, who still struggles to hold a job, who quit school at 17 but did go back and get her GED. She also has a cosmetology license that she did nothing with, and she's now an LPN. So on one hand, she's done quite a bit with herself. On the other hand, she quits job after job (because someone is always out to get her, in her mind) and she spends her time partying, or moaning about the general state of her life. It's my opinion in knowing her since she was 17, that she's this way because someone has always bailed her out. When she took off out of state a few times, someone always sent her bus money when she was ready to come back. She's lived for free with friends and relatives, and her most current living situation was in a rental property of her father's, which last I heard she's quit paying rent on. No one has ever made her be responsible for herself, and this is how she's turned out.

My daughter is genetically related to this woman and sort of shares her personality. I don't want to always be there as her cushion and have her turn out the same way. So yes, I have huge fears about pulling out my support and having her run away or get angry and get involved in drugs or something and take her life. But what I'm doing isn't working, and even if I find a way to protect her until she's 18, then what. She becomes an adult, she's learned nothing because I've continued to protect her, and now she's out on her own (because I'm sorry, but if she's not at least making an attempt to be self-sufficient by the time she's 18 or she's not continuing her education, she won't be living in my house. Cold, maybe. She can visit. I don't plan to disown her or write her out of my life. But I won't provide a place for her to flop either.)

However, that's 2 years from now. This is now. And for right now, because I don't have money to send her to some expensive boot camp or private school, and because I don't have the ability to be around 24/7 to ground her or prevent her from going places and doing things because I work, she's going to get a dose of tough love.

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Cold, maybe. She can visit. I don't plan to disown her or write her out of my life. But I won't provide a place for her to flop either.

I don't think it's cold--This is what a responsible parent does. Our seventeen year old son got himself kicked out of an expensive private school and now he has to finish his senior year in a public high school. He was publishing his own report cards on the computer.

My husband and I opened a bank account and put money in it--enough to cover the first and last months rent and security deposit.

We showed it to him and said the day he turns eighteen (August 19) he is out of here with his personal belongings and that bank account. If he does well in school he can stay here and we will help him with college. If not I will help him find an apartment.

He needed a new desk (his collapsed) My H and I went shopping and came home with two small folding tables. My son said, "I thought you were gonna buy me a desk?" I said your father and I decided the folding tables were better because they collapse and it will be easier to take them with you when you leave.

My son looked hurt and said, "where am I going?" And I said, "Honey, that is entirely up to you."


Me: 56
H: 61
DD: 13 and hormonal
DS: 20

Oldest son died 1994 @ age 8

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"Why am I not surprised that Check doesn't "get it"."

I most certainly do get it, lady, and oviously far better than you do. Who do you and TBG and others think you are presuming you know anything but a few basic conscepts about this? Just haphazardly following your recommendations about this "tough love" could have catestrophic consequences. One never does something like this after only reading a few web pages or some self-help book from the Barnes and Noble. LL isn't dealing with a daughter who is just being a rebellious teenager, but with one with mental disorder. She had to do this right or she may loose her daughter forever. So she goes to a pro; she doesn't take the advice of people on the internet, to whom she is little more than an abstraction.

It amazes me sometimes how people are so willing to give others very dangerous advice, when they have only a handful of facts. I cannot presume to know even a fraction of what is actually going on in LL's and her daughter's life. I advise her to do tough love, but to do so with a clear goal, a solid plan and with the help and advice of a family therapist.

My parents tried tough love on my sister, who was a troubled teenager. They dodn't know what they were doing, but had been told that this is what you have to do. Well, what they got was a daughter who was pregnant at 16, married at 17, divored at 19, married again at 20, divorced again at 22, attempted suicide at 24, married and divorced again with another child at 28 -- and on and on and on. Their "tough love" solved their immediate problem, but did nothing to help my sister.

Get real.

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