I've been silent on here for the most part for a number of reasons, most of which I won't mention here. But just wanted to say if someone has a problem child, do beware of thinking you can have a relationship with someone.

What has been wonderful for 2 months for me has the feeling of coming to a screetching halt because of my daughter, because of how I've dealt or not dealt with her, and because I've now let my fears over the whole thing drive me to calling him and crying last night and emailing him in the wee AM hours, and now he's totally silent. This after things have become tense since about a week or so ago when she got booted out of school.

The telling statement from last night's phone conversation came when I asked him to just be honest about her affect on our relationship and he said, "In all honestly, I couldn't see myself living under the same roof with your daughter. If I were paying 1/2 the bills, I'd expect certain behavior from her, and I can't because I'm not her parent."

A cast iron skillet to the head couldn't have hurt worse. I can barely stand to live with her at this point. But she's my daughter--I by law have to provide food, clothing and shelter until she's 18--and that's almost 2 more years. I have no other parent to rely on. He's out of the picture.

I can't do a two-year long-distance relationship, and this means he has no intentions of taking things to a different level as long as she's there and behaving like she is, and I see no signs that she'll ever change. Her own dad couldn't tolerate her--it was one of his stated reasons for leaving. No one will be able to tolerate her.

She's all mine. And I'm looking at turning 40 in less than a month and going into a depressing Iowa winter and into the holidays alone, losing someone who I have come to care a great deal about over the last few months and who had discussed future with me and lead me to believe we might have something here, dealing with some child who only cares about herself and about crapping on me.

Not a good day.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

LL, I am so sorry.

I honestly have no answers at all. I just know that you deserve to have happiness in this life. I will keep you in my prayers.

You are a dear, wonderful girl, and I am sorry for your situation.

[color:"blue"]Problem kids and relationships do not mix well. My daughter is working Saturday from 6 to 11 am, then she is babysitting from 1pm to ?. My boyfriend and I planned an activity and I will be 45 minutes from home. No way do I want to drive out to pick her up from work. She is refusing to ask the babysitting mom to pick her up from work. Now boyfriend is upset about her constantly scheduling activities and expecting to be given taxi service for whatever she schedules.

I also can see that he does not want to live with her under the roof, although he has never said it - it's what I feel. I wonder too if he will ever want to live with my boys. The other night I asked him to tell the boys it was time to go when we were at a friend's house, and he refused, saying he didn't want them to associate him with something negative, and then added that they were my responsibility.

Which they are, of course, but sheesh I don't think I tried to make them his responsibility because I didn't feel like getting up?!!

So, anyway, I'm looking at possibly 10 years before boyfriend and I would have no "impediments" to being together always. I wonder if he thinks I will stick around that long? I would rather be alone than in a stagnant relationship.

I ask him where he sees himself in 20 years. He replies, living someplace warm with you. I can't see myself in that scenario unless I accept that it will be 10 years before we would get married.

V.[/color]

(((((LL)))))
I'm sorry hun. I was sorta in his shoes in my last LTR. It's a complex situation, when the feelings are so strong. We dated for 2 and 1/2 yrs. We even "dreamed" of getting married "one day" after his kids were grown, and out-grew their teenage problems. But it just was too big of a problem. And his problems really extended beyond kids-issues.

I know you're hurting... give yourself plenty of time. But don't write-off love. Someone out there can love you and your situation.

hugs,
Faith1

((lordslady))

I think I’ve pretty much been with since the day you signed in. I’ve been through the end times of the marriage. Been through the “I won’t turn my daughter in because I’ll loose support or have to pay”. Been through you don’t understand what it’s like dealing with problem children. Been through the never gonna be loved again. Been through the Oops, got loved. Been through it all up till this point. I don’t say this to upset you in any manner, only to lay down a couple of things. First, I feel that I and others have a little knowledge of you and your situations. Secondly, we care. So if you can’t read the remainder of what I have to say with an open mind knowing that it comes from someone who genuinely cares what happens to you, then I encourage you not to read anymore.

Let me add one more qualifier in there and that is that I have dealt with kids with severe mental conditions ranging from sexual abuse, physical abuse, addiction, cutting, to being HIV positive. Sure none of them are “my” kids, but in reality they were all my kids.

((LL)) I think you need a change of prescription because the glasses you are looking through are blurry to say the least. I will further say that this is by far the saddest post I've seen you write. Now I have to ask where is your gratitude? What are you grateful for today? What are you grateful for everyday? I have to be honest and say that it seems like you thrive on negativity and drama. I don’t say this to be mean, I say in hopes that you’ll examine yourself and either prove it wrong or right.

Then what ‘I’ read in this latest post, again I say it’s what ‘I’ read in it, is that every bad thing that’s happened is your daughters fault (the divorce, this break-up – all her fault), that you can’t stand her and only tolerate her because of a legal obligation. I know it sounds harsh but I don’t know how to state it differently. Now let me ask you something, if I a complete stranger can draw this conclusion from monthly posts, what conclusion do you think she draws? Do you think she feels loved? Do you think she feels any acceptance? Do you think she feels given up on and blamed for everything?

Let me ask you something, how would you feel if everyone you loved abandoned you physically or emotionally, blamed you, and branded a big ‘L’ on your forehead for loser? You’re hard enough on yourself as it is but what would that do to your self-esteem, ego, pride, etc… Quite honestly, I think you’ve already shown how you’d react to a degree. You seek love and acceptance or you create a pattern of self-destructive behaviors. Now how is your daughter reacting?

So where is your gratitude and what are you grateful for? The reason I keep asking that is to get you to focus on the positives for a moment. If you look at the world through negative eyes you will see the negative but I’m here to tell you that the opposite is also true. Rather than differences you can see similarities and rather than negatives you see positives.

(((LordsLady))) You are an amazing beautiful creature of God. I see that. Many posters see that. But do you see it? I and I’m sure many wish you great happiness and health but worry that you can’t do it alone. I think you’d benefit from some professional help. If I remember correctly you were going at one time.

In closing, click on this link THE GOD MEMORANDUM . I challenge you to read and understand every word. It’s an excerpt from a book by Og Mandino, a memorandum from God. Look for yourself in there, I’ll warn you it’s long and you have to hit continue for 4 pages. ((LL)) you are the greatest miracle in the world, believe it……

Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers

Is there any way you could afford to send her to a boarding school where there would be some discipline? But perhaps not too far away, so you could be with her on weekends?

{{{LL}}}

I'm sorry to hear about your latest predicament.

When your BF said,

what do you think he meant by "I can't because I'm not her parent"? I'm assuming from what you said:

that he has made suggestions you don't agree with about how he thinks you should "deal with her". Do you think he would he be interested in continuing the relationship if his opinions were taken seriously?

I believe that allowing your DD to be blamed for destroying your relationship is incredibly destructive, to her.

I gave up a long time ago suggesting that you go to Al-Anon. It's unfortunate you aren't willing to try it because I strongly believe it would help. You may no longer have the alcoholic in your life, but you have been seriously affected by the family disease, as has your DD, and your other kids. DD is the "canary in the coalmine". She is the indication that all is not well. Unless she has significant brain damage on which you can blame all her behavior, she is a product of an alcoholic marriage and she is acting out for a reason. Some kids become little superheroes, others withdraw, she's acting out.

Is there anyone you trust enough to listen to? A pastor, a counselor, a friend?

This was going to be my suggestion also. It might work for everyone involved...most importantly your daughter who might thrive with a new and different structure. Just a thought hon!

If you have never had a totally out of control child it is hard to relate to those who have. I know, because I had and still have a child who simply does not listen. It's as though she has a checklist of all the stupid, dumb things a young person can do and she is making sure she does every one of them. She is now an adult so I no longer have direct control or responsiblity over her and for her, but the pain and effects on my life are still there.

LL is going through a living ******. Her life is being trashed by her own child who doesn't give a d**n about how her actions effect anybody else. I suspcect that LL has given, and given and given, that she has worke herorically to help her daughter, and all that time, effort and energy have been tossed into the trash by her daughter.

Some kids can't be helped because they refuse to allow anybody to help them. I know, because I have one.

LL,
God bless you. Relationships are difficult with kids, period, whether they are easy kids, or more difficult to raise. I wish I had advice for you, but I do pray all will work out for the best for all of you. I pray your BF will see the treasure that you are and work things out for you two.
Take care.........
KK

Oh, boarding school would be a waste of money. She would run away and LL would probably forfeit thousands of dollars in tuition. You people have got to get real.

Good point Justin..thanks!!

But I do realize the unhappy situation she is in.

I feel the daughter needs to see that if she will not live in the house as a member of a family, then if necessary, she will be placed in another environment so as not to damage herself, her future, or the family. A boarding school with weekend visits with her mother, seemed like the gentlest way to do that.

LL, you may be right about the reasons for the new turn of events, or it could be more of the reality of infatuation lifting and reality setting in (at least for him).

As we know, one of the toughest relationship phases comes after infatuation, and is often called the disillusionment, or the "oh crap" phase, because that is when we see that the other person does not really walk on water. It is how we survive the disillusionment phase through negotiation and hopefully acceptance that determines if the relationship was truly meant to be.

Perhaps you are now in that phase - he sees the reality of your difficult daughter and does not want to deal with it, you do not want to deal with long distance for two years, etc. If you can find a way to get through this, then you pass the relationship test; if not, then it probably wasn't meant to be.

Personally, I find his reasoning somewhat suspect, and I sense other concerns that are yet to be brought up by him. But that is just my gut feel.

Give it time, back off a bit, and see what happens. You have only known the guy for two months - you hardly know him.

AGG

LL - Get real! Your husband didn't leave "because of your daughter". I remember well how he'd ply her with alcohol and just about anything else. I stopped reading your posts a while back because you'd never do anything about your addiction to addicts - and that's where Al-Anon comes in. And I hate feeling helpless while I watch someone make a trainwreck out of their life.

Al Anon is only the first step for you. But it is a first step - and 11 more. Get a program. Get a sponsor. Deal with your anger at yourself, your husband and your daughter. And then give your daughter some much needed parenting.

Only then will you be truly "marriage" material for someone else. Until then, you are just asking for someone to take on all the problems YOU have created in your life and that's just not a reasonable thing to do to someone you supposedly love.

Two things:

1. boarding school would not work as the child will run away. And the cost is exteremly high. I imagine at least $20,000 a year.

2. Alanon has helped many people and that is a good suggestion. I'd bet LL can benefit from attending one meeting a week.

[color:"blue"] For those of you who have never checked it out. Boarding school for problem children has a tuition rate of about $48,000. That was what it would cost me on a sliding scale. Then there was the summer camp progrm I paid for to the tune of $8,000 for 10 weeks.

Now the good news is that the one I sent my daughter to had a school in the Dominican Republic as well as the states. Since my daughter was a severe case, they recommended the Dominican Republic, but I could not afford the tuition. The runaway children would be found very quickly because it is an Island, the children generaly don't speak the language, and the natives will turn them in for a $10 finder fee! There was a very good summer program, which I am still paying for ($8,000), and I saw a lot of benefit. She has improved over the last few years and a portion of that was the school (I called it Christian Boot Camp), the other portion being her maturity.

If you have ever watched Dr. Phil, you may have seen him deal with things like this. He tells both the parents to quit their jobs, whatever, and concentrate solely on the problem child until it is straightened out. Only that level of attention really fixes the problem. One case i saw had the child go to a boot camp.

Many of you have dealt with teenage angst, but I doubt that more than a few of you have seen the ruin that a problem child wreaks on a household. I am grateful that my daughter is better now, because our house used to be chaos.

She grew up with her dad who used his parents money to win custody. It is only after four years with me, four years of counseling, boot camp, and lots of love and patience that I can say finally that I am starting to like my daughter again. She was very unlikeable for many years.

I didn't give up on her, I didn't stop loving her, but I didn't like her very much.

V.[/color]

This is such a problem!! LL I feel for you. I honestly do not know what to tell you. I just want you to know that I am sorry, but things will turn around. Any more thoughts?

If anyone is interested in really understanding some of these issues go to www.conductdisorders.com.

It was my lifesaver for a while, just like this website is for those dealing with infidelity.


In my opinion this is a rather sugar coated list of symptoms.



There's no easy fix here people! Lay off of LL and stop implying that she hasn't "parented" her daughter.

Lexxy, unless I missed something I don't think anyone has been on her. There has been some brain storming and ideas. I, myself, wasn't on her, only implying that she take a careful look at her outlook and see where her power resides.

Which at the end of the day she may only have the power to choose not to be miserable, that's not a call I can make.

I have a nephew that amoung a ton of letters describing his condition ODD is in there as well. My sister has been through he!! and back with him. It's strained her marriage. After a couple of years of struggling including 6 months in foster care, many drug regiments, and a lot of TLC he is intergrating back into the family.

I'm sorry Bill -- I in no way meant you. I went back and read this thread again. There are a lot of well meant ideas and suggestions. It was really just one comment that inflamed me...
I think thats out of line and quite disrespectful.

Sorry it took me a while to respond to all of you. I fought a migraine all yesterday and didn't feel up to much. And thank you for all your input.

First, an update on my dating situation. We are speaking. I am going to spend a few hours at his place this evening. However, things are still tense, and we both tend to get emotional over the deal. His issues are that as a guy he's an "action person" and there's nothing he can do because he's not her parent, and that frustrates him. Equally, he's frustrated because he can think of all these things that I could do (that I can't think of on my own), and he doesn't understand why I don't do them. He's also hurt because I have issues trusting that he'll remain with me through this, but on the other hand he can't promise that it won't become too much so it's a catch-22. And he's frustrated with my lack of confidence in myself, because I have the tendency to put myself down, especially when it comes to my parenting skills (or lack thereof). So I'm not sure where things will go. I'm fairly certain it will remain a distance relationship until my DD is out of the house. I don't know if I can do that for 2 years. (And yes, if she's still there at 18 and not working and not going to school, her bags WILL be on the front lawn, as hard as that may be.) So, we'll take it day by day and see if the tension settles any.

As for my replies/thoughts:

John,

Thanks for your continued support. It isn't easy. She did better for a while, and then just crashed again once she turned 16.

Sunny (and Alluring, and Bellemere),

Boarding school, boot camp, etc. aren't options as I don't have the funds to do it. There is nothing in savings. I don't have the money to pay on loans (I'm not even making a car payment--am limping by until my son is out of college in 2 years).

As for Dr. Phil's approach of quitting jobs and doing whatever it takes, that's what it would take to be able to sit on her 24/7 and make sure she didn't go where she wasn't supposed to. However, that may be an option for Dr. Phil, but it's not for a single mom like me with zero savings. And even then, I truly don't think more discipline at 16 is what's going to help.

But I am glad to hear that you have had success with your child. It is very difficult to watch them just throw their lives away, and very frustrating to keep giving and loving when they seem to be on a mission to drive one insane.

Faith,

Thanks. I'm not completely writing off this guy yet. We are talking. We just have to figure out how to get past the DD issues without getting so emotional and frustrated or it's going to ruin everything else. One day at a time, I guess (not easy for me because I want guarantees).

LH,

Yes, you have been here to see me go through pretty much everything. I haven't had the time yet today to follow your link. But I wanted to just say a couple things. First, there actually have been times where I've been so angry and so frustrated at what my DD is doing or not doing that the legal obligation is about all that keeps me trying to help her. It is heartbreaking watching her totally throw her life away because she's so darned self-centered and defiant and lazy. And I live in fear that the minute I actually do get tough with her (it's coming), that she'll get angry, leave, and get herself killed and I'll blame myself forever. That's part of my lack of action. But I realize that allowing her to get by with what she's doing right now is not going to help her become a self-sufficient adult.

Second, you said:


While I'll never know for sure, I think a huge part of why she's so difficult now is because at a time when she was really starting to fail at school and she was crossing from middle school to high school (new "older" friends with transportation, much harder classes and higher expectations, and her school dropped her from special ed. at the end of 8thg grade--a totally wrong thing to do), her father started seeing the floozy and our entire world collapsed. I went into a downward spiral and wasn't there mentally for her as a mom for probably 6 months. We were in survival mode--I bought food, I made sure they had a house, I took her to school, I worked, and I went to bed. That's it. So I do think when she needed parents the most, we were both gone (her dad was always gone--and I don't think essentially single-parenting a very difficult child has good outcomes most of the time anyway).

That said, because I do believe she feels everyone abandoned her EXCEPT ME, I've been way to easy on her and have tried too hard to be there to talk to, to be a listening ear when she needed to vent, and by giving in when she wants something because I didn't want to see her hurt anymore. But because she has ADHD, ODD, and she's an extreme "taker", wired very much genetically like her father in all respects, she took and took and now just expects the world to hand things to her, and if the world doesn't hand something to her, well, she does whatever she needs to do to just take it anyway.

So I do try and focus on the positives, but it is tough watching the child I gave birth to just make dumb choice after dumb choice, because I see no future for her right now. All I see is someone who will bounce from friend to friend once she's an adult, not hold a job, and likely get involved in drugs and alcohol (I fear she has her dad's addictive tendencies), and possibly meet an early death. That's a sickening thought, but it's reality. The odds for ADHD, ODD kids with addictive personalities who quit school aren't good.

LetSTry,

Al-anon, while maybe beneficial for many, isn't going to happen. First, I'm already too busy with working, the DD issues, keeping up my house, and dating. I'm trying to figure out a way to add a little exercise to my schedule, and haven't succeeded at that. I have no desire to sit with a group of women (or men) and discuss the effects of alcohol. Nothing against your suggestion at all. I'm just saying that I know me well enough to know that right now, because my heart's not in it and I'm not a good "group therapy" candidate anyway (I don't like sitting in groups and discussing issues--I'm a one-on-one person), it isn't going to happen.

I do believe that my ex's addictions and just his behavior in general had a negative effect on my DD. But I also believe it has to do with her basic personality, the ADHD and the ODD and the struggles they've caused. Example: My son, while more self-centered and lazy than I'd like to see him, is doing well at college, doesn't touch alcohol or drugs, and seems to be a fairly functional adult who has been in a relationship with a very nice girl for 2 years now. He was parented exactly the same as his sister was--in fact, got less attention overall than she did because she's been far needier and has required more.

As for the guy I'm seeing, I am very open to his suggestions. The frustration is that he gives them to me but I've had a hard time following through, and it frustrates him because he can't do anything and he's all about action. And when I say, "what would you do if your child did this?" all he can say is that he doesn't know, because his own children would have never gotten to the point she's at because they had a strong father figure who made it clear who was boss. My DD has never had that. So we frustrate each other. He's not said he can't see me anymore. What he said, among other things, is that he can't see himself ever living under the same roof with her. She has potentially at least 2 more years under that roof if she chooses not to leave. I'm not sure I can do a 2-year weekends-only relationship. So, it's tense.

JE,

Amen! You seem to be someone who understands where I'm coming from here. I have not been a perfect parent--far from it. I've been way too lenient, because I wanted to trust her and give her the benefit of the doubt. But there's no guarantee she'd have turned out without these problems even if I had been more strict. And the same parenting seemed to work for my son. ADHD and ODD are tought to work with, and she also refuses to take any kind of medication for the ADHD which makes life more difficult for her. And although she's only 16 so is not legally an adult, her therapist and her teachers and even people I know have admitted that at this point there is nothing more I can do where it comes to controlling what she does. All I can do is allow her to make her "adult" decisions but face the "adult" consequences of them and hope she wakes up before it's too late.

KK, thanks for your thoughts. I'm hoping we can work through these issues.

Kayla,

I don't believe I'm addicted to addicts. The only person I've been with who was an addict was my ex, and I married him long before I realized that. My daughter has addictive tendencies, but she's my daughter--not much choice there to be with vs. not be with her. The guy I'm dating is not addicted to anything except for maybe fall football and donuts. Those I can deal with.

As for parenting, I don't think anyone with a "normal" child can understand what it's like to attempt to parent a child like my DD. And that problem is further compounded by the fact that her father is out of the picture so I am her only parent. But I'm doing the best I can without a parent's instruction book for defiant, ADHD teens. Her schools couldn't deal with her. The therapist didn't even reschedule more appointments last time because it's pointless. My DD is going to do what she wants to do and the only thing I can do is provide food, clothing, and shelter (as required by law) and take everything else away because she doesn't deserve it. That's what I hadn't yet done, but am in the process of doing.

Lexxxy,

My daughter and I are living proof of the quote you posted:


Even when we were seeking therapy, the mission of the last therapist wasn't to tell me how to be more restrictive and step down on her, but it was to try and find a common ground that we could both live with.

Where a normal child will often change their behavior if consequences are imposed (aka, grounding), it's fuel for an ODD child's fire and come ****** or high water, they'll find a way to challenge it or get past it. (Grounded, you say? She's just split while I was at work and be gone for a few days. Call her in as a runaway? She's split again, for longer, and she'd steal my money. Lock her out of my room? She'll bust the door latch while I'm gone.)

AGG,

You might be partly right. We've only been together for a few months, but we've moved very fast and spent a lot of time together, so we may hit that stage faster than some people who are moving slower. We've also had a lot of things tossed into our relationship that generally don't cloud the beginning stages, mainly having to do with my daughter and her issues, because she's destroyed my house a few times, she's taken off and gone 100's of miles away and then found herself rideless when her ride got busted for DWI, and she's gotten kicked out of school.

I think his comments and his reasoning are very well supported. If I had "normal" child and I was dating someone with a child like my DD, I'd be hesitant, too, especially this early in a relationship. And then I get all emotional on him and that doesn't help anything.

Anyway, I guess time will tell. Patience--something I'm not good at.
----------------------------------------------------------

Now, as for this whole hubbub with my daughter and what I mean when I say she crashed, here's what's up:

She broke up with her boyfriend mid-summer and started hanging with her previous group of older friends again. She started breaking curfew--heck, she just quit coming home at all on weekends and even some weekdays. She lifts money from my purse every time I have cash in it and forget to hide it somewhere (trivial amounts because I never carry more than $10, so nothing that a cop would entertain filing a report on). She wears my clothes and trashes them and uses my makeup without my permission. I locked my bedroom door and she broke the latch and splintered the door. She completely trashes my house. She has brought friends in after I've gone to bed and I found one of them sleeping in her bed with her when I got up the next morning (a guy--he's lucky they were clothed and that I had to be at jury duty or it would have been uglier). She is verbally abusive to me each time I say something she doesn't like. And once she turned 16, along with putting piercings in her face after I said no because they will affect her ability to get a job, she totally gave up on school and the finally kicked her out about 2 weeks ago because she was failing her classes. This is an ALTERNATIVE HIGH SCHOOL! She doesn't have to do homework! No effort is really involved besides just appearing there and working while you're in class. But she's out. And she's not working. And she won't even make the effort to get a drivers license. She just expects that I buy her food and clothes and that I give her money for all the local band shows she attends. Her life totally revolves around herself and her entertainment. And she's said things to the guy I'm dating that have made me cringe. Fortunately, he is a special ed teacher of high schoolers, so is somewhat used to shocking comments, but he should not have to deal with them. He is entitled to respect. He shows it to her. But because she's defiant, it's her mission to see if she can either shock him to death or piss him off, I think.

And through all this I've listened to her when she's sad or frustrated or ranting about her issues, waited on her, taken her places, tried to do things with her like take her out to dinner with me, etc. etc. And all I get in return is more of the same the moment I refuse to give her money or buy her something she doesn't need, or suggest that she can't just sit on her rearend and not go to school or not work.

So, yes, it's been very difficult lately, and sometimes I resent her so much for what she's doing that I am ready for her to just move out, if that's what she thinks she needs to do.

LL

I wish I had something useful to offer you. LL, but I don't; this is a bit out of my experience. Like Lexxxy, I was thinking ODD. If she hasn't been evaluated for this, she should be. Untreated ODD can lead to serious problems in adults - both emotional and legal.

You say she's been very difficult lately. How does this correlate with your starting to see this new man?

Check,

She already has an official diagnosis by a psychiatrist of ADHD/ODD and possibly some form of depression. She refuses to take medication for any of it. She refuses help because she doesn't see that she has a problem. And because she's not suicidal/homicidal, she doesn't qualify for any kind of inpatient treatment, only outpatient. We've been through several therapists with no success until the last one where we had limited success for a while.

It's very disheartening and yes, she is very defiant to authority. A year or so ago when she ran away and I was filing a missing person's report with the cop when she bopped back into the house, he was sternly talking to her and she told him to F-off. That's blatant disrespect for a very high level of authority. She's told school principals the same thing. The more someone gets in her face and tries to show her who is boss, the more she's going to fight them. I've found it works much better to just matter-of-factly say "this is what I'm doing" and do it, and attempt to not let her rile me. But it has to be something I can actually do. For example, I can't force her to stay home or ground her because she'll just leave the minute I step out the door. But I can take her phone, her internet, and refuse to give her dime one for anything. That's what my current plan is. I'm just waiting for all ****** to break loose when she finds out that she has no computer and that her cell phone will no longer work after 10/1.

But no one is going to just sit in my house and do nothing with their life, and expect me to fund their conveniences. These items are not needs. So I don't know what else to do at this point besides pray for her, and try to remain, as my date puts it "in functional mode and not emotion mode". I was running in the latter for the last two days. I'm still struggling today, but am a little calmer.

LL

HI LL!!

I am not saying you should do this, but it is an option...
Have you considered having her emancipated? If she becomes an emancipated minor, she would no longer be your responsibility.

I know she is still your little girl, and you don't want anything bad to happen to her. But you deserve a life, too.

Again, I am not advising you to do this, but only to let you know that it is an option. You seem to be at your wit's end.

Wow, LL. I have to give you kudos on doing the tough love thing. I couldn't agree more with your rationale. Let it break loose. Be calm and prepare for the encounter. Let her know that the party's over and nothing's going to change until she agrees to take her medication, work with her therapist and show you and others some respect. Ground her. Lock the V-chip on the TV. If you can lock the phones, to that. When she breaks the rules, calmly take something else away from her. It makes no differece that she's going to get mad, leave when you aren't there, run away, etc. Be tough and consistent. I may not do any good, but if you do, one day when she's older, she will understand and respect you for it. I agree with your fellow. Don't show her your emotion. Shoot come here to vent that, but only let her see the mom, who is calm, resolved and finished with her crap.

Oh, and if she goes out and gets into trouble, do not bale her out. Let her sit right there in the juvenile retention center for a day or so. Usually juvenile court judges are more than happy to meet with parents privately to discuss a wayward child. A good brush with the law and a smart judge, working with an engaged parent, can often scare a kid straight.

LL,
Several years ago, I had to do the Tough Love thing with both my H (Plan B) and 21 year old son at the same time. Talk about TOUGH love. But it can be done. I changed the locks on the doors, gave party-boy son all "his" papers in the filing cabinet (made copies of banking for my info) and told my him to be his own parent. Holidays and birthdays were hard, but I made sure to contact him on those dates. He went to Alaska and worked, then Georgia, where he settled down, became a manager at a bread store, and the next time I saw him (2.5 years later) was a changed young adult. He's not perfect, but he stays with me once in a while (he's just completed 2 years of long-distance trucking - the longest job he's ever held) and I am beginning to enjoy his company.

It can be done, but make sure you have your ducks in a row first. It helped me to go to Nar-Anon because a lot of parents there have to do Tough Love, too.

A question for you - if your daughter was ten years old and misbehaving, what would your BF's thoughts be about discipling her?

Lexxxxy,

Normally I am quite restrained in how I communicate here - but either you haven't been reading LL and awakened to the fact that she's parenting HERSELF when she talks about her daughter being oppositional (read her history when she describes herself and her sister), or how many times LL has been encouraged to get help for her anger (breaking things, screaming, etc. and she escalates things to the point where she's out of control and remorseful/ashamed. She hasn't done ANYTHING to address these things, and yet she's wanting a man to be in her life to make her feel a sense of worth. I can understand why even though a man at this point is only going to have to become part of the dysfunction to survive, or up and leave if he's mentally healthy enough to recognize this is beyond his ability to fix. Adn then LL is back in the "I'm ugly - nobody wants me" mode again.

- and btw, I have worked with oppositional teens before in a psychiatric hospital, and yes they can be out of control and they know how to work the system by the time they are LL's daughter's age - but more often than not, there's a woeful lack of any kind of consistent boundaries and parents are unwilling to learn and practice any kind of consistent boundary/discipline that deals with this. There are so many resources out there, if LL would first seek help for herself and her own anti-social and oppositional behavior. I haven't seen that happening.

LL - have you taken the anger management class yet? Do you use the free mental health services that most counties offer at little or no cost to people in your situation? I know these have been mentioned before but there's always been a reason why you couldn't or you've ignored the suggestions altogether. If this were my daughter, and I was realizing it was life-or-death for her (which it is), I'd be knocking on every door from the local to the state government to find support for both of us. I would ask until, instead of stopping at the first obstacle!

Anyway - I've been shot down as not understanding the situation so you have your social support to continue on the woe-is-me plight. Good luck and God bless.

kayla,

Generally I don't get too testy on here at anyone directly. But your comments frustrate me, because you really have no clue what it's like to personally parent a child like my daughter. If I stink so bad at parenting, why is my son an honor student with an academic scholarship at UI? Two kids--same house, same parenting. Working with oppositional teens at a psychiatric hospital isn't like parenting one 24/7 for the last 16 years. I'll admit boundaries were lacking as she grew up, or they were undermined by my now ex-husband, especially when I traveled out of town on business (which, by the way, was his idea--he didn't want me to give up the good job I had and take a lower paying one were I wouldn't have had the travel.). I did my best given the situation. I wasn't a perfect parent. Maybe you are (wait--do you even have children??)

As for my anger outbursts, I think you should be sure of how things are now before you actually suggest that I'm oppositional and antisocial. (And where did anti-social come from?? Just because I don't want to go to al-anon and I don't do a lot socially, that makes me anti-social??? How about I just like being a homebody?? I'm very social and very well-liked at work and no one there would say I'm oppositional. And if I have to go somewhere and meet new people, I can do well at that, too (ask my boyfriend--I've met his entire family and they all like me, too). I have opinions, yes. And I can be stubborn. But truly oppositional--very seldom! And how do YOU know that I need a man in my life to give me a sense of worth? Ever thought maybe I want him there because I'm ready to share my life with somoene else? Is that a wrong thing? Did I not wait long enough after my divorce to suit you? And if he doesn't wise up and leave me, you suggest it means he's mentally unstable?? I'm sorry, and this is not ladylike, but WTF?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> You perhaps should rethink before you accuse someone of things like these.

Yes, I have a very quick temper and definitely did have some anger management issues, but they showed their face with situations related to my now ex-husband and with my daughter, when she is really out-of-control. I'm not proud of how I've reacted, but given some of the situations that have triggered my anger, I challenge anyone not to react with at least a raised voice and perhaps some choice words after they've lived with what I have for a while. I tolerate a LOT before I snap and I am improving with time. Having had time to be out of the dysfunctional marriage has made a lot of difference in my level of calm and my patience, though yes, I still raise my voice and let loose a few choice words from time to time with my daughter.

As for free or low-cost mental health services, someone who makes what I make does not qualify for it. I have private health insurance with some mental health benefits. I've sought therapy on many occasions for my daughter. She chooses not to cooperate, and the last therapist did not see a need for her to come again because it's just a waste of everyone's time. My daughter is at an age where she has to want the help. Forcing it is just throwing money down the drain. The general consensus from everyone who knows her and me better than you do is to let her reap the consequences of her actions (no school, no job--then no phone, no computer, no money, no anything other than a roof, basic clothes, and some food in the house). She's 16--by law in Iowa she can quit school without a parent's permission. The state won't touch her because they have bigger fish to fry. If they come to my home they'll find a relatively clean, newer surburban house in a safe area of town filled with decent food and clothes. They will not remove her from this home now that she's of age to quit school. And she's very good at staying out of trouble with the law. Other than her runaways a year or so ago, the truancy that got her expelled from her first HS almost 2 years ago, and a tobacco possession also 2 years ago, she has nothing on her record. She has committed no crimes (or at least not been caught). She flies under the radar. I've made many calls and asked what can be done. There are few answers.

So please cool off. I am fairly open-minded and I listen to what people say, unless I feel that they're accusing me of something.

LL

Well LL, coming from someone who deals with people who actually get angry enough to kill (I am a prosecutor), I would say you don't have a serious anger problem. There are lots of people who would have killed a man for what he did to you.

Again, I am so sorry for your daughter's situation. I can offer you hope that she will be 18 in two years. I suggest that you plan for that. When she turns 18, it might be a good idea to change the locks, write her a letter telling her that she is not to enter your home, and tell all the neighbors that she does not have permission to be on your property.

I am not saying you should do this, but only telling you that it is an option. You are the one paying the bills and you have an absolute right to keep anyone, even your daughter, from destroying your house and stealing your property.

You are a good woman, and the guy is very lucky. (One more time: Big breasts would not make you any better!)

LL, with the things you put up with from your exH, I think you held your temper very well. This is coming from a prosecutor who deals with people who cannot control themselves on a regular basis.

Perhaps you and the nice guy should put together a 2 year plan.

Why do I have a problem with others telling a mother that she essentially needs to write her troubled daughter off and take solace in the fact that she's going to cease to be her problem in two years? While I understand that some children have such serious problems that the parent may have to back away, I cannot imagine that any mother would do this as anything other than a last resort. It would be a heart-wrenching, not to mention life-altering, experience. I'm not so sure that we should be making such comments, especially in this forum.

Tough love isn't about writing people off. It is treating them as an independent individual capable of making up their own mind and setting boundaries of acceptable behavior for their interaction with you.

It is about saying, "I love you, but I am not going to allow you to treat me this way." It's about saying, "If you choose to pursue this unacceptable behavior towards me then this is going to be the consequence of that behavior." Then you have to follow through, no ifs, ands, or buts. Every time. Consistently.

Tough love shouldn't be a last resort. Tough love should be a first resort. If parents continually "save" their children from the consequences of their decisions, then the children never learn, they never grow up. As much as we would like to, we cannot live our children's lives for them. Some will accept the wisdom of their parents, others have to learn it the hard way on their own. For these children, you have to love them enough to let them go.

I understand the concept of tough love, but some of the comments I've read here, go way beyond tough love and they will not accomplish the desired goals if they are not a part of a more comprehensive plan. Hence, my comment: I'm not so sure we should be making such recommendations to a mother, and given the potential dangers, leave this issue to professional, who are actually trained in this area.

Why am I not surprised that Check doesn't "get it".

Check, the Big Guy is correct one hundred percent and stated very concisely what tough love should be about.

Would you let a stranger come into and destroy your home? Of course not! Then why would you continue to let a child of yours do so?

My oldest daughter did not like the reality of living in a home where there were rules, and at 15 she convinced me that the crowd at school she hung around with were all changing and doing drugs and being bad, and that the teachers were prejudiced against her because of trouble she had been in previously. Her arguments were very convincing - she wanted to go to Florida, live with her dad and start over.

Well her dad is a decent man but has no boundaries and is passive aggressive. Bad combination because he is very permissive and thinks that people will realize how much he sacrifices and then reciprocate.

She took advantage of him. Spent or stole his money all the time. Scammed him on credit cards. Held loud parties with cars coming all hours of the night in the back of the house where she moved to have her own private entrance. Wrecked cars. Didn't show for court appearances so that he lost bail money. Quit school at 16.

Well she is now in jail taking microsoft courses and planning how she is going to be different once she gets out. She is much better in a lot of ways, but she still thinks she is owed. She tells me that she wants to come visit me and her brothers and sister and go shopping! I wrote her back and told her to bring money if she expects to go shopping. She is going to be 21 soon and I am not going to be sucked into buying her a new wardrobe. She has never held a job and earned her own stuff - it is time she learned that one too.

Now if her dad had not bailed her out of those situations over and over again, she might have finished school at school rather than taking a GED in jail... He rescued her rather than letting her learn life lessons the hard way.

And she is the easy daughter - her sister is much harder to deal with emotionally.

Her sister also knows that if she doesn't pull her own weight that she will be out of the house at 18. She currently has a girlfriend who moves from house to house because her folks kicked her out at 18. Good lesson for my daughter to witness. My daughter is working toward her own goals in school and life because she knows there is no free ride once she turns 18. She also learned the meaning of tough love when I sent her to boot camp. She knows that if she messes up enough again I will send her away. I did it twice already - to boot camp and back to her dad's house. She hates her dad because he took her away from me when she was little and then neglected her.

The thing is check, you can love these kids to death and kill them with kindness and even mistreat them and it does not good and makes no difference. The only way these kinds of kids learn is the hard way - by making mistakes and paying the consequences.

V.

LL,
I've read some of the threads that you have been on, so I know a little about your situation, not as much as I could...
My heart goes out to you. I know it's sad to lose someone you care about and I remember how excited you were about it all when it started. I'm in Iowa too. If you'd like to email me personally, my email is [email]dellarita@mchsi.com.[/email]
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'd like to reach out to you and perhaps there is nothing I can do but maybe listen and oh, I don't know, fix you a really good, strong margarita! ; )
One thing I DID want to say is that I'm a single gal too, I don't have any kids and of course most of the guys I date do. Does your SO have kids?
When you are out there dating and you get more serious with someone, at least *I* know that the kids come with the guy. It's a package deal. Maybe this guy is willing to help out some, or at least try. Can you let him? Maybe he won't have an impact on her at all, but hey, if he's willing, and accepts that you come with some baggage (just like the rest of us!) and you can LET HIM HELP YOU, well, you just never know.
I just wanted to let you know my heart is heavy for you. I know you were excited and living it up, and maybe he just isn't the one and there is someone better, but maybe he might need some time to come to terms with what he's getting into. At any rate, your DD is a part of you, and if he can't accept it all, then he shouldn't have even gotten involved.
My best to you...again, write me if you are interested. I have LOTS of wonderful girlfriends that might benefit you...

Let see, how has it been put to me many times...

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results."

Doing what I'm doing over and over (being there and protecting her and helping her) is not working. Must try something different.

And I have an ex-sister-in-law (the ex's sis) who is now 42, who still struggles to hold a job, who quit school at 17 but did go back and get her GED. She also has a cosmetology license that she did nothing with, and she's now an LPN. So on one hand, she's done quite a bit with herself. On the other hand, she quits job after job (because someone is always out to get her, in her mind) and she spends her time partying, or moaning about the general state of her life. It's my opinion in knowing her since she was 17, that she's this way because someone has always bailed her out. When she took off out of state a few times, someone always sent her bus money when she was ready to come back. She's lived for free with friends and relatives, and her most current living situation was in a rental property of her father's, which last I heard she's quit paying rent on. No one has ever made her be responsible for herself, and this is how she's turned out.

My daughter is genetically related to this woman and sort of shares her personality. I don't want to always be there as her cushion and have her turn out the same way. So yes, I have huge fears about pulling out my support and having her run away or get angry and get involved in drugs or something and take her life. But what I'm doing isn't working, and even if I find a way to protect her until she's 18, then what. She becomes an adult, she's learned nothing because I've continued to protect her, and now she's out on her own (because I'm sorry, but if she's not at least making an attempt to be self-sufficient by the time she's 18 or she's not continuing her education, she won't be living in my house. Cold, maybe. She can visit. I don't plan to disown her or write her out of my life. But I won't provide a place for her to flop either.)

However, that's 2 years from now. This is now. And for right now, because I don't have money to send her to some expensive boot camp or private school, and because I don't have the ability to be around 24/7 to ground her or prevent her from going places and doing things because I work, she's going to get a dose of tough love.

I don't think it's cold--This is what a responsible parent does. Our seventeen year old son got himself kicked out of an expensive private school and now he has to finish his senior year in a public high school. He was publishing his own report cards on the computer.

My husband and I opened a bank account and put money in it--enough to cover the first and last months rent and security deposit.

We showed it to him and said the day he turns eighteen (August 19) he is out of here with his personal belongings and that bank account. If he does well in school he can stay here and we will help him with college. If not I will help him find an apartment.

He needed a new desk (his collapsed) My H and I went shopping and came home with two small folding tables. My son said, "I thought you were gonna buy me a desk?" I said your father and I decided the folding tables were better because they collapse and it will be easier to take them with you when you leave.

My son looked hurt and said, "where am I going?" And I said, "Honey, that is entirely up to you."

"Why am I not surprised that Check doesn't "get it"."

I most certainly do get it, lady, and oviously far better than you do. Who do you and TBG and others think you are presuming you know anything but a few basic conscepts about this? Just haphazardly following your recommendations about this "tough love" could have catestrophic consequences. One never does something like this after only reading a few web pages or some self-help book from the Barnes and Noble. LL isn't dealing with a daughter who is just being a rebellious teenager, but with one with mental disorder. She had to do this right or she may loose her daughter forever. So she goes to a pro; she doesn't take the advice of people on the internet, to whom she is little more than an abstraction.

It amazes me sometimes how people are so willing to give others very dangerous advice, when they have only a handful of facts. I cannot presume to know even a fraction of what is actually going on in LL's and her daughter's life. I advise her to do tough love, but to do so with a clear goal, a solid plan and with the help and advice of a family therapist.

My parents tried tough love on my sister, who was a troubled teenager. They dodn't know what they were doing, but had been told that this is what you have to do. Well, what they got was a daughter who was pregnant at 16, married at 17, divored at 19, married again at 20, divorced again at 22, attempted suicide at 24, married and divorced again with another child at 28 -- and on and on and on. Their "tough love" solved their immediate problem, but did nothing to help my sister.

Get real.

Try as I might - I could not stay out of this conversation. It is not my intention to throw barbs at anyone, however if that inadvertently happens, please consider that it's not my intention for any of this to be personal. And I will try to be concise, yet effective.

Like many of you; I have personal and 1st. hand experience with situation(s) like this. My youngest sister (now 37, with a daughter and a son who have extreme issues of their own due to Mom's choices) is currently in maximum security prison serving an 8 year sentence for several counts of felony fraud and other related crimes. [Drug use and sale of, petty theft, bad checks, etc.] She was actually sentenced to 30 years however my family reached an agreement with those she stole from to guarantee full and complete payment within "x" amount of years after her release from behind bars. This agreement was made through the court system and reduced her stay by 22 years. Oh yes, she will be on probation for another 20 years after her release. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to conclude the kind of life my sister's children were brought up in.

When I read about LL's daughter - the similarities are amazing. And LL is "acting" very much as my parents did back then. (Sis was diagnosed with ADD/ADHD, and several other "DD's" by different psychologists and doctors.) These diagnoses turned out to be the worst things that ever happened to my sister. Because with each and every diagnosis, came another reason for my parents to "bail her out" of the trouble she inevitably got into and to consistently enable her behavior by not forcing her to be responsible and accountable for her crimes. Sis' crime spree was like the proverbial snowball rolling down the hill - getting bigger and bigger, faster and faster. My parents did this because they love her - and their intentions were always honorable, however, their actions of constantly bailing Sis out actually allowed Sis to get deeper and deeper into this downward spiral of worse and worse crime.

Approximately 7 years ago, my parents finally decided to give "tough love" a try. I'd pleaded with them for more than 20 years to do this, however they were simply not emotionally prepared to "do" what tough love really means. However, within a year of doing tough love my sister's life began a dramatic turnaround. This turnaround was incredible and I am pleased to say that Sis turned herself in and in a moment that I thought would never happen - confessed to the authorities and to us every crime that she could remember. (Words cannot describe the amount of, nor the severity of those crimes!)

Sis is now paying for her years and years of bad choices. And she will be making physical payments and emotional payments for a very long time. However, she is definitely on the right track now and I feel she will live out the last half of her life the polar opposite of the first half. At least that is my hope.

As to my parents: They are now so grateful that they finally decided to do the "tough love" thing with her because it surely saved her life. But they beat themselves up each and every day because they didn't choose the "tough love" way years ago when Sis was in her teens. For as history proves, it would have made a dramatic difference in Sis's life and in her kids lives.

So to LL: I see so much of my youngest sister when reading about your DD. And so much of my parents when I read about you. I guarantee - that nothing else will work, except for a full and complete commitment by you to implement and stick to the traditional methods of tough love. I also guarantee that if you don't do that - your DD will end up like my sister - or worse! Truth is - my sister should've been dead several times over given where her lifestyle took her. Only by a higher power did she survive. So like it or not, the future of your DD lies squarely in your hands. And like you so powerfully stated:


You have the power and the responsibility to help your daughter. What you're doing, doesn't - and will never work! I've seen living proof of that. The only answer to saving your daughter is your complete and total dedication to learning, understanding, implementing and sticking to (no matter what) the traditional methods of tough love.

And I would not be surprised to hear that the fellow you're "seeing" would gladly help you with this. (As long as you become and remain committed to doing what it takes for your DD.)

OK, stepping down from this soapbox now.

FR

I agree with Check that it is wise not to haphazardly apply "tough" techniques in the name of Tough Love without fully understanding the concepts behind them. A parent should inform themselves on what to do and what not to do before beginning such a process.

I've researched the subject a little bit and recommend these websites. ToughLove International used to be a not for profit organization. Apparently they have recently converted to a for profit corporation. For more information on this specific program you can find them here at ToughLove.

Another interesting site is Because I Love You.

And finally, there is Families Anonymous

I don't know anything more about these organizations other than what I read about them on their websites. I highly recommend LL and anybody else interested in practicing behavioral modification for their children to learn as much as they can before they begin.

I hope that no one thinks I do not believe in tough love, because I do. FR's story illustrates it's power. But I do know that if it isn't done right, it can do more harm than good. The exact application must be individualized, ehich none of us have the expertise to do, especially based on a few BBS postings.

Sunny, I shouldn't have been so snappy with you in my last post. Apologies. I'd just got back from a luncheon with a vice president that I don't have a lot of use for. His people have not been following procedures and he and I needed to chat. Well, his idea of chatting is that you tell him what is needed and he start talking bizspeak telling you how "at the end of the day" we must "proactively strive to bring increased value to our clients." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I know that's not an excuse, but my filter was overloaded. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

"Al-anon, while maybe beneficial for many, isn't going to happen. First, I'm already too busy with working, the DD issues, keeping up my house, and dating."


This is just my personal opinion: The comment that LL made, gives me the impression that she's given up on her daughter because she is too busy, I understand the working, and keeping up with house work, but DATING? Perhaps that's why Kayla made the remark about LL needing a man in her life.

I have to say this sentence bothered me too, but I didn't want know how to bring it up. Al-anon only takes 1 hour a week (or more, if you WANT it to), but can make SUCH a difference in your life. When people make a list of excuses as to why they don't have time for something like that, I just don't even know what to say or where to begin. Al-anon is sooooo helpful... it would help you with "working, the DD issues, keeping up the house, and dating". It's NOT just for dealing with an alcoholic. When I started going, it was mainly to learn about my alcoholic sister, but I learned about ME... and learned about MY issues with EVERYONE around me... my xBF, my family, my coworkers, my relationship with God, time-management, stress-management... etc etc etc. Where else can you get all this FREE self-help wrapped up into 1 hour a week?

LL, I encourage you to find a meeting and try it once or twice to see what you think. Every group is different, and every meeting is different, so even trying it once is not a fair taste, but you would benefit so much by looking into it. Just think about it some more, k?

I read this thread, and then left it a bit to give it some thought.

It certainly does sound like LL's daughter would benefit from some change in management, and the underlying concepts of tough love, as I understand them, are pretty similar to the basic concepts of the Cloud and Townsend Boundaries books. There's a lot in there about how to treat those you love responsibly.

But it really concerns me that a mother is:

1. blaming her daughter for her own romantic relationship being unable to progress, when the man in question's own remarks about the matter seem to be more about objecting to the mother's handling of it rather than not wanting anything to do with the daughter

2. not going to Al-Anon and has never gone though she is recovering from the kind of relationship where such a recovery process simply has to be done

3. given the above, saying she's going to implement tough love without the appropriate counseling for herself in her own recovery and without any kind of professional help with managing her approach to her daughter's serious disorders

When I put it all together, this situation screams of more pain waiting to happen for this family. It's frightening.

LL, way to go on deciding on a change. You've got some good ideas. But it's important to respect your daughter enough to know your own limits and to get your own help. What you report about your AO issues alone is reason enough for you to be getting help.

I would agree that 12-step programs can be very helpful, but only for those who are highly motivated to change. You have to get yourself to that stage before you can be helped, and really, these programs help by teaching you to heal yourself. All too often, a 12-step program cannot be the first step. Some issues require individual intervention before attempting a 12-step. The 12-step is the final phase, not the first.

LL, I've read many of your posts and I see that you are grappling with a number of difficult issues, both your own and your daughters. You have too much on your plate and something's got to go. Obviously, that isn't going to be your daughter, your job, or the management of your household. So what's left? You don't need to date, but you do need to get a handle on your anger management issues. The only way to do that is to discover your root anger and deal with it. Do you feel that it may be wise to forego dating for awhile and get your life in order? Do you think that right now dating may serve only to complicate an already dysfunctional life? How is having a man in your life going to make it better? These are your questions to answer and you need to answer them honestly - to yourself, not to us.

I'm going to put myself in your man's shoes for a minute. I don't do this to make you feel bad about yourself, but only to reiterate some perspective that I believe you already have. If I were dating you and discovered that you were grappling with these issues, I would break it off. I would do this because I understand that while you are dealing with them, you cannot effectively engage with me to develop a healthy relationship. I know that I could only make matters worse, since I would distract you from dealing with your issues. The "ouch" part of it is that I wouldn't want to take you and your problems on. I would understand that all that could come of a relationship with you is pain for myself. Ultimately, the relationship would fail. Why would I willingly go there? This isn't to say that I would abandon you if I cared for you, but I would definitely cool the relationship to friendship status, support you where I could, and relegate the possibility for romance to "maybe someday when things are better in her life." If your man isn't thinking this way, you should be questioning his motivation because he may be seeking a relationship with you for all the wrong reasons. You certainly don't need to add another serving of woe to your plate right now.

Maybe I'm way off base, but I refuse to believe that Al-anon, or any other self-help group is a requirement for me to "recover" from my prior relationship. I don't think much about my ex, there are a few things that still trigger me (mainly related to issues of trust--not addiction), and I'm very thankful at this point that I'm no longer involved in it. My anger outbursts are far reduced from what they were in my marriage. I've always been quick-tempered and rather impatient--it's my basic personality. I'm doing better at not building to the point of snapping--it takes a lot to get me there. Finding my house trashed and having my daughter fling "f-you" and scream and storm around when I try and correct her sometimes does cause me to get a little irate, but nothing that anyone else wouldn't be irate at, too.

I'm not avoiding al-anon for any big reasons. I simply don't choose to spend my time making sure I'm at some meeting by 7pm each Wednesday talking to women I don't know. And here's the other deal--I'm rather shy by nature. I don't like going to groups and being the "new" one. It's again, just my personality. I prefer to talk with the people I know--my neighbors, my coworkers, my family and my church. I'm just not a "meetings" type person, and I don't have the motivation to become one. Nor do I think they're going to provide the type of help I need for my DD. She's not a substance abuser. She's defiant. I'd rather find a self-help group for defiant teens, but the closest one I've found so far is in Illinois.

Dating--not ending that. I really care about this guy. I have no intention of giving up on him unless he gives up on me. And I truly don't think I'm pulling him into this "dysfunctional household"--if he does, then he can choose to leave it.

One more thing: Just my opinion but I think too many people wallow in their past, and how it's affected them, and the analyze it and dwell on it. Well, I don't want to dredge it up and analyze it. I just want to say "it's in the past--I'm not there now" and move on.

I don't have issues with my coworkers. Heck, I've been in the work force for 20 years and I think have half-heartedly gone off on someone maybe twice, and it was because I was so frustrated with their total stupidity that I wanted to quit just like half my team had, but I needed the job so I hung in there until they finally replaced him. I don't have issues with any of my family (parents, sister, etc--other than my mother who I've never been particularly close to and don't choose to be, simply because she is rather nutty and she has a gambling problem, and she frustrates me in anything more than small doses. So my boundary now is that I just don't talk to her very often, and if she starts down a path that I'm tired of hearing her dwell on or worry about, or nag me about, I will warn her that I'm going to hang up, and if she doesn't quit, I do hang up. She hasn't gotten an angry verbal earfull from me in years and years. She just gets a hangup.)

Yes, I have issues with my daughter. I don't need anyone to tell me what they are. I've got a pretty good clue already. She's not going to school, she's not working, she expects me to give her everything on a silver platter, and if she doesn't get it, she acts out. It breaks my heart to give and give and have her just take and take and show no respect. I want her to be successful. I just don't know how to help her.

She got a letter from me yesterday (which I read to her and then gave to her) explaining how much I love her, but that as her parent, a big part of my responsibility is to raise her to be self-sufficient, and that while I know she is intelligent and CAN make good choices, the choices she's made lately (I cited examples) are poor choices. Because of this, I will provide food, clothing and shelter, but no phone, internet, or money because those are things she doesn't need.

She got mad..tore up the letter...and left overnight last night. But she's here today, speaking to me, and calmer. That's LL's plan at this moment, as she researches Tough Love.

I am happy overall with where I am, considering where I was 2 years ago. Yes, my daughter has HUGE issues. My BF's statement is that at this point it's like trying to put out a forest fire with a tiny fire extinguisher. But neither he nor I have any better ideas, so I'm starting by taking away all but necessities and at the same time making it clear over and over when she says I"m pushing her away, that no, I'm very willing to let her live here because I love her, but because I love her I am doing what I believe I need to do to help her become an adult.

Truly, I don't think I'm as screwed up and dysfunctional as some of you think. I just have a lot on my plate.

And yes, dating is optional, and I don't NEED a man in my life. But I care about him and I WANT him there, for me.

Warning--selfish statement: I work hard at my career, at trying to parent a difficult child the best I know how with zero support from her other parent, and at maintaining a house on my own. I deserve the opportunity to share my life with someone if I so choose.

LL

I wasn't saying you were screwed up or dysfunctional, just because I suggested Al-anon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I didn't say you had problems with your co-workers or family. I'm very glad that you don't have problems in these areas. I don't consider myself "screwed up or dysfunctional" either, and I benifitted from Al-anon for a few months. That's all I was saying.

I'm sorry for your frustration. I know you don't always like our advice and suggestions. You're a smart lady, and you'll figure this out. Hang in there. You have my thoughts and prayers.

hugs,
Faith1

LL, you write:

"I've always been quick-tempered and rather impatient--it's my basic personality. I'm doing better at not building to the point of snapping--it takes a lot to get me there."

No! There is no personality type that includes anger. Anger building to the point of "snapping" is one of the classic signs of someone repressing long-standing anger. This is not normal and IS a disorder that can and should be treated. Anger is normal and sometime necessary and unavoidable. But long standing anger subtly poisons your life.

I personally don't think you are screwed up and dysfunctional. But I do know that your life most assuredly is dysfunctional. You say you do not have a support network. You MUST build one. There are support groups for parents with troubled children. Many family therapist conduct them. All it's going to take is a bit of looking.

I know you want a man, that's plain. Please read my last post again. I gaurantee that until you get some of these issues resoved, you will noever have a good relationship with any man. Dating shouldn't be on your plate at all right now. I understand that's the last thing you want to hear, but it is the truth. I'm in your corner, but sorry, I don't sugar-coat.

LL, it brings tears to my eyes to read this. You are absolutely right, you deserve to be free from the tyranny you have been living under. You are an amazing woman and niceguy better know how lucky he is. I am very impressed with you.

Stick to your plan...it may work! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If she gets worse, clear out her room of everything but a weeks worth of clothes, a mattress on the floor, a pillow and a wool Army blanket...once she REALLY understands you mean business, most kids will change...

Good luck..I'm pulling for you!

WNB

LL, Have you told her what the ramifications will be when she disobeys you? She has to know that failure to comply with the rules will carry unpleasant consequences. She can get as mad as she wants, but it's going to happen anyway.

You go, girl!

My cousin did this with their daughter...worked wonders!!!!

Depending on how often she eats at home, a NUTRITIOUS daily menu of everything she hates also is a real attention-getter...keeps Protective Services off your back as you have put GOOD food (brussel sprouts and liver come to mind)in front of them...the child is simply choosing not to eat. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It's a long haul battle, but if you really persevere, you can win.

BLUCK!!!!! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

LL -- did you happen to check out the website I quoted?
It has a forum a lot like this one. I think it would be a great place for support on the issues you're dealing with.

And I know its a lot bigger than whether or not a kid eats their vegetables. There's lots of support and ideas for things like expulsion, truancy, theft, delinquency, etc. And specific for kids who have the diagnosis's that ours have. Plus there's lots of information on treatments and meds (if you can get them to take them!)

Good Luck on everything!

Faith,

It wasn't your statement at all that I was referring to when I mentioned that I don't think I'm as screwed up and dysfunctional as some may think. But I am being honest with everyone when I say I'm not intending to do al-anon right now. It's just not something I'm even remotely interested in at this particular point in my life for several reasons.

Check,


While anger itself isn't a personality type, I do believe that everyone has the ability to become angry depending on what happens, but some personality types just are more mellow and laid back than others. And for some people, they may never get to the point where they raise their voice. Other people do, and I don't believe it's because they have all this unresolved anger built up. And yes, I have "snapped" on occasion which is not good. It is happening much less frequently at this point, but I'm willing to bet that some of the things that have pushed me to that point would have pushed a lot of other "seemingly normal" individuals to the same point. Truly, it's a wrong and an unhealthy way to handle things. But I don't think it's totally my issue. I think it has a lot to do with circumstances in life that became extreme, mixed with three personalities that aren't the most laid-back (mine, the ex's, and my dd's). I am no longer in part of those circumstances (the ex is history), but the other (my daughter) I do still deal with daily.

The support network is not all that easy to find where I live. I am researching Lexxxy's on-line link, because I've not found much here in the area. And none of the therapists we've seen have suggested anything of the sort, and we saw people from the two best-known child psychiatry offices here in the city. So my support right now comes from family and friends who've never experienced anything of the sort, and from the guy I date who teaches high school special ed, which is both helpful because he has some good insights, and is difficult because it frustrates him to see my daughter's situation and not know how to fix it.

WHnowBS,

Hey, what the heck is wrong with brussel sprouts and liver???? (I really do like both of those things..)

Okay, both because I don't think she deserves her every whim when it comes to food and because I'm trying to make my life less complicated (and so I'm looking for things that she can cook while I'm at work that create less mess), I am planning on scaling down what I buy at the store for a while, and only buying things off about a 10-item list. I figure we can make just about everything we need to with just these basics. Right now we still have quite a bit of stock to use down to get there, though, because I"m not willing to just throw it away.

Lexxxy,

I finally got a chance to look into that website a little today. I did bookmark it--haven't had a chance to check out the message board yet. There were some depressing things, like the article where the mom saw her son turn around because she was able to basically attach herself to him 24/7, go to school with him, etc. for months. The point--be everywhere with your child until you see them turn around. Great idea in theory, but not feasible for a single mom with no savings. I have to work, and my workdays are often longer than 8 hours because I manage an accounting department. So even if I didn't have a life beyond work (and I do now for the first time in years), I can't be home to monitor what she does and where she goes from 8:30am to somewhere around 7:30pm. So we have to go with different options because I can no longer "force" my child to do something or not do something. I can't control who she hangs with. And I don't see picking up and moving to some different locale to try and get her with a different group of friends to be an option. She will gravitate to a certain type of kid no matter where she is--it comes with the ADHD/ODD. I think they seek out their own. So, unless I feel that she's in a situation that could be life or death (i.e., she's somewhere and has called me for a ride because her friends are drinking--I will come get her in those situations), I am going to allow her to make her own choices and also to deal with the consequences of the choices.

Right now, she has no cell phone and no recreation money or allowance from me. She does have her internet back because she has put forth a bit of effort on some independent study projects that her school gave her to work on for class credit until she gets to try coming back to school 2nd quarter. I expect to see progress made each day on the projects. If I see none, she has been told that internet will go away again.

To all: Yes, the household situation can itself be a little dysfunctional at times--like when I had to drop everything at 11:30pm on Saturday night and jump in my car and drive downtown to pick her up because the girl she rode down with was at some party drunk. The guy I'm seeing was at my place and offered to go with me, so he got the full treat of what can happen. But unless she decides to turn over a new leaf, it really doesn't matter what I do--things may be like this for a few years. I don't feel like I should have to put my life on hold when there's really not a lot more I can do beyond what I'm trying to do right now.

LL

"But I don't think it's totally my issue."

No. YOUR anger is completely YOUR issue and you can never, ever blame someone else. Someone else may do something to anger you, but you own the anger and only you can deal with it.

LL, Everyone gets angry occasionally and often with good reason. That's not the kind of anger I'm talking about. It isn't that we get angry that is a problem, but rather how we deal with it. Some of us are taught as children that anger is some sort of sin or personal failing and learn to suppress it. Some of us have deep-rooted anger that has never been dealt with. When this happens, we have a tendancy to suppress our anger, so that it builds and builds until we "snap" and blow up. This is neither normal nor healthy, and it is one of the number one reasons for failed relationships. Suppressed anger will poison every aspect of our lives and must be dealt with.

So if you "snap," even from time to time, you need to learn to express with anger in a healthy way. There are many good books out there dealing with anger issues. Believe me about this. I once had a problem with suppressed anger (unresolved anger at my parents) that I had to get a handle on. As soon as I learned to let the anger go, I found that I was far less likely to become angry and dealt with it much more effectively. Now it takes quite a bit to bet me angry and I deal with it on the spot and in healthy ways, such as directing it at who it needs to be directed, in a calm, non-hostile way, and letting the person know how they have angered me. I don't always succeed at this, but I do catch myself before I become too angry.

Think about this. How can you effectively help your daughter get a handle on her anger if you don't have a handle on your own. I don't mean to suggest that you are some sort of anger-ridden sicko, but I think you can understand that if you blow up at your ODD daughter, even if she richly deserves it, you are just throwing gasoline on a fire.

((LL))

I know you've probably read about all this stuff to death, but here is an interesting article ODD and CD with some suggestions. As I see it, some of these things you are currently doing, which is awesome. After reading the article, a concern would have to be has this manifested from ODD to CD? If so, the risks for her become greater.

And LL, just in case you forgot, a lot of us out here are pulling for you. We really do want to help.

LL,

I'm very sorry for all that you suffer with your daughter.

I didn't read the entire thread, but I can offer a word of encouragment.

My wife's niece was sent to us (in USA) at the age of 15 (from Ukraine). We put her in a private (catholic) high school (grade 10). Since she was cut off from her element, she wasn't very wild during her time with us - although she did manage to find as her only friend the one girl who could be counted on to be in detox about 1 week out of each month. We were supposed to keep her for 2 years, but we only did it for one semester.

As soon as she got home, she ran away from home and moved in with her boyfriend. Her parents did nothing. When she was 16, she was working in a bar until 2am every night. At 17, she married her BF (who she'd been living with for a year and a half) and had a child (after one miscarriage). Now she's 19 or 20.

OK, those are the bare facts, but there is more to the story.

She's turned out to be a good mom. Her husband is a drunk, but they are committed to each other. Her parents like him better than their other son-in-law because "he knows his place" (when he visits them with her, he sits outside with the dogs and waits) and he clearly loves his wife. She is a busy housekeeper. They don't have much, but she does what she can. When she was a kid, her grandparents kept chickens and she liked to gather the eggs. So, now she has chickens (it's not so unusual where they live). She has a milk goat and a garden - her little attempts at "home economics". These were her ideas. She is changing. Yes, her choices in life put her in a bad spot, but things are looking up.

I can't predict your daughter's path, but I know that things can improve.

I'm sorry you are losing your man-friend. I understand his point of view... and yours.

-AD

Latest Update:

My daughter is back in school--but only since today. This was the 1st day of 2nd quarter, and the first day she was eligible to be back. She doesn't want to be there. She hates the school and hates the other students there. She skipped one of her 3 classes today. Moral: It's doubtful she'll last there past the week's end.

However, she has surprised me a little in that even after I took away pretty much everything but her internet connection, after the initial anger, she's come around and hasn't been too bad to live with. She has no cell phone, but she still finds ways to call me and check in (and she does this on her own, because I've given up "requiring" her to check in).

In reality, she's living the life of an unemployed 21-year-old in a 16-year-old's body. I very much dislike that she just informs me that she's going out of town for the weekend and I have to hope and pray that she stays safe--I can't stop her from going, don't like that she's not working, and that she's not putting effort into school. But she has a number of friends who are pushing her to get her G.E.D. if she quits school (which it's my current understanding that in Iowa, she can't even start working on until she's 17 and has been out of a school for 1 year which seems stupid to me--still checking into it). And a fair amount of her friends have jobs, too, so hopefully eventually peer pressure will take hold.

But she's been home more at night since I took away the cell phone and stopped giving her any money, though she has an extensive network of friends who I assume, because she's the youngest of the group, have sort of adopted her as their little sister. They pay her way to band shows, they take her places, they are obviously buying her cigarettes, and sometimes they come over and hang out here with her.

I've concluded that there is nothing I can do to force her to go to school because in Iowa you can legally quit without parental permission at 16. I also can't force her to get a job until she's 18 and legally an adult and I have the ability to force her out of the house if she's not living by the rules. However, I will continue to encourage her to either go to school or to find employment at every chance I get.

Right now I'm just thankful that she's not being particularly difficult--in fact she spontaneously cleaned the kitchen up some last week, which is almost unheard of from her. In talking to a couple people I know about step-kids and nephews of theirs, I realize it could be SO much worse. The two guys they told me about (who are not both adults, btw) are into meth, they are violent, they have destroyed things in the houses, broken in, one is involved in a gang...it's really a mess. Makes my daughter sound not nearly so bad. Right now she maintains she is not doing any kind of drugs and that she doesn't drink anymore. She told me if I want to drug test her, that she'll willingly submit. (I won't--I see no signs of drug use in her.) But if she doesn't get her life together, she will be headed down a very bad path. So I have to just keep praying and hoping, and doing whatever I can to stay in a good relationship with her, so that she'll keep me in the loop on what's going on in her life.
---------------------------------------------------------

As for the guy I was seeing, I am still seeing him. We've had several tense moments related to my daughter where I've been relatively sure we weren't going to make it long-term, but so far he keeps hanging in there. I've found it works best when it comes to discussing my daughter, if I don't mention a lot unless he brings it up first. His kids still haven't met mine, and that is going to become a more critical issue because his 12-yr-old son keeps asking when he is going to get to come to my house (and I've told him he's welcome any time). We need to decide how and when to do it and I guess, see how it goes. And then there are his two older daughters (15 & 19), but I'm not quite as worried about them because they're older and there wouldn't be much reason for them to be around my daughter on a regular basis.

But overall things are still going very well. We've been corresponding for almost 4 months now, and seeing each other for three months and a week. We still email and talk on the phone daily (which is better than my ex EVER did), and we see each other every weekend and generally one evening per week. He sent me 6 red roses for my birthday last week. There has been no discussion of "permanence" by either of us, but future plans have come up--the most solid of which is a proposed quick trip to Las Vegas next March over his spring break. I happened to mention how I've never been there as an adult and would like to maybe go sometime, and he threw out how we should go when he's off on spring break in March (he's a teacher). we've discussed it several times over the last two weeks, even to the point of him emailing me the dates of his spring break and telling me which weekend was a kid-weekend so that I can plan accordingly. So he does obviously think "future", because March is a ways away. So I do find myself thinking "what if", but trying at the same time not to be too hopeful, because even if we do stay together, it would be a couple years before anything of permanence could happen due to his job, his kid responsibilities, and his classes he's taking toward his doctoral degree, unless I decided to pick up and move that direction. And we are both very much in agreement that living together is out, so he knows what would be required for us to be together on a daily basis.

And some time ago we discussed my 2-year rule (that being I will not do a long-distance relationship for over 2 years). His comment was that he saw no problem with a woman expecting a commitment by that time, and said that in his opinion a couple should have a pretty good idea by the 1-year mark where they stand as far as a future together (not saying they should be married at that point, but saying that they should have a pretty good idea if they're headed there or not in the future).

So, almost 4 months down and so far, so good. But it's obvious sometimes that we're still two people who are fairly nervous and who have a hard time believing that this is really as good as it seems. I think my "burn scars" are actually less than his, because not only did his ex-wife burn him (and continues to do so in little ways 5 years after their divorce), but his only L/T relationship after the divorce really ran him through the wringer, too.

So...keeping fingers crossed.

LL

Thanks for posting! I had been wondering how things were going for you, daughter, and BF. I'm thankful that things seem to be going pretty well for all of you.

LL, I think you are doing very well. Thanks for the update.

I don't want to thread hijack, but I can tell you we are also working on the whole I-love-you-but-your-kid-drives-me-nuts thing ... my children and his are 'problem' kids in the sense that they are not perfect *G* ... however I seem to have more patience for mine than his, and vice versa.

Wish I could offer advice but I'm living it right now. No matter HOW hard we try, I'm not sure it is possible to treat all the kids like "ours" rather than his and hers.

LL,

I just read your Sept. post. Don't know what's happened since then; I'll keep on reading. But know one thing - Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Even when things seem their worst, God can use them for our best. That's been a real tough one for me to stomach. I don't always like it, but ususally the bad feeling things in my life teach me something that helps me make it, and make it a little better next time. I remember when my son was 18 and got put in jail for being caught behind a drug party. He only got charged w/drug paraphanalia (can't spell). That one was a BIG blow! But what I had to do, and one of the hardest things I ever did, was let him sit there. I bawled my eyes out. I didn't want to see him suffer for what he did, but I let him get his own self out. I let him know that I loved him enough to let him fall down until it hurt bad enough he was ready to get up. And of course that wasn't the first problem I had with him. In spite of what he did, I told him I loved him and that God did too. He was 14 when I first started having big problems with him. He flipped and totaled my car then. And that wasn't his last one. I'd had him and his sister by myself since he was 6yrs old. I didn't think it would ever end. But when he got out of jail, he straightened up, sent those old "friends" of his away and got into the navy. He realized how weak he was and that he had to have something to keep him straight. He's 22 now, married and just made me a grandmother in Aug. I'm supposed to get to see the baby for the first time this weekend. Can't say I was really ready to be a 'granny' at 39, but all the pictures I've seen of her are so pretty. It definetly takes it's toll on relationships when guys find out I'm already a grandmother. When they first look at me they think I'm in my 20s still and then: wham! there it is. They don't usually like it.
But I've finally come around and learned to be happy just being me and being single. Yes, I still feel lonely sometimes; wish I had someone to hold, to be there for that will be there for me, but I've learned to be strong enough in myself in the Lord that - it's okay. No, I haven't quit living, but I've 'finally' made the adjustments needed to feel full without a man (at least most of the time).
Don't really know what the future holds, try not to think about it, I just try to make it one day at a time. Sometimes one moment at a time. But like everyone I know has told me, the things that don't break you in this life, make you stronger. Maybe that's all that's happening right now.
I know that right now I'm having to get past a lot of bitter, angry feelings toward the past two men I dated along with the man I was married to for 5yrs, for the way they treated me. But when it's all over, the one things I'll be able to benefit from it all is being able to pick a stronger match, one who won't abuse me, and one who wants to stay together for life. Don't know when it'll happen, but when it does, it'll be good.
Don't lose hope - ever. Just hold onto God and by all means hold on to yourself. We ALL screw up with our kids somewhere. We're human. The best we can do is learn from our mistakes and do better in the future. She may have to get into a lot more trouble & suffer for it herself like mine did, before she gets any better. But you can pull through, even without a man. If you can't make it without one, believe me, you can't make it with one. They put their own share of trouble into relationships. I've learned to enjoy just being friends with them. No strings attached. And of course, they have to be the same way. Friends are only friends. Hugs is as far as anything goes between us. They don't get the milk because their ain't no cow for sale. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Things will get better. Just believe in YOURSELF and you will make it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Take care
RMW