Try as I might - I could not stay out of this conversation. It is not my intention to throw barbs at anyone, however if that inadvertently happens, please consider that it's not my intention for any of this to be personal. And I will try to be concise, yet effective.

Like many of you; I have personal and 1st. hand experience with situation(s) like this. My youngest sister (now 37, with a daughter and a son who have extreme issues of their own due to Mom's choices) is currently in maximum security prison serving an 8 year sentence for several counts of felony fraud and other related crimes. [Drug use and sale of, petty theft, bad checks, etc.] She was actually sentenced to 30 years however my family reached an agreement with those she stole from to guarantee full and complete payment within "x" amount of years after her release from behind bars. This agreement was made through the court system and reduced her stay by 22 years. Oh yes, she will be on probation for another 20 years after her release. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to conclude the kind of life my sister's children were brought up in.

When I read about LL's daughter - the similarities are amazing. And LL is "acting" very much as my parents did back then. (Sis was diagnosed with ADD/ADHD, and several other "DD's" by different psychologists and doctors.) These diagnoses turned out to be the worst things that ever happened to my sister. Because with each and every diagnosis, came another reason for my parents to "bail her out" of the trouble she inevitably got into and to consistently enable her behavior by not forcing her to be responsible and accountable for her crimes. Sis' crime spree was like the proverbial snowball rolling down the hill - getting bigger and bigger, faster and faster. My parents did this because they love her - and their intentions were always honorable, however, their actions of constantly bailing Sis out actually allowed Sis to get deeper and deeper into this downward spiral of worse and worse crime.

Approximately 7 years ago, my parents finally decided to give "tough love" a try. I'd pleaded with them for more than 20 years to do this, however they were simply not emotionally prepared to "do" what tough love really means. However, within a year of doing tough love my sister's life began a dramatic turnaround. This turnaround was incredible and I am pleased to say that Sis turned herself in and in a moment that I thought would never happen - confessed to the authorities and to us every crime that she could remember. (Words cannot describe the amount of, nor the severity of those crimes!)

Sis is now paying for her years and years of bad choices. And she will be making physical payments and emotional payments for a very long time. However, she is definitely on the right track now and I feel she will live out the last half of her life the polar opposite of the first half. At least that is my hope.

As to my parents: They are now so grateful that they finally decided to do the "tough love" thing with her because it surely saved her life. But they beat themselves up each and every day because they didn't choose the "tough love" way years ago when Sis was in her teens. For as history proves, it would have made a dramatic difference in Sis's life and in her kids lives.

So to LL: I see so much of my youngest sister when reading about your DD. And so much of my parents when I read about you. I guarantee - that nothing else will work, except for a full and complete commitment by you to implement and stick to the traditional methods of tough love. I also guarantee that if you don't do that - your DD will end up like my sister - or worse! Truth is - my sister should've been dead several times over given where her lifestyle took her. Only by a higher power did she survive. So like it or not, the future of your DD lies squarely in your hands. And like you so powerfully stated:


You have the power and the responsibility to help your daughter. What you're doing, doesn't - and will never work! I've seen living proof of that. The only answer to saving your daughter is your complete and total dedication to learning, understanding, implementing and sticking to (no matter what) the traditional methods of tough love.

And I would not be surprised to hear that the fellow you're "seeing" would gladly help you with this. (As long as you become and remain committed to doing what it takes for your DD.)

OK, stepping down from this soapbox now.

FR

I agree with Check that it is wise not to haphazardly apply "tough" techniques in the name of Tough Love without fully understanding the concepts behind them. A parent should inform themselves on what to do and what not to do before beginning such a process.

I've researched the subject a little bit and recommend these websites. ToughLove International used to be a not for profit organization. Apparently they have recently converted to a for profit corporation. For more information on this specific program you can find them here at ToughLove.

Another interesting site is Because I Love You.

And finally, there is Families Anonymous

I don't know anything more about these organizations other than what I read about them on their websites. I highly recommend LL and anybody else interested in practicing behavioral modification for their children to learn as much as they can before they begin.

I hope that no one thinks I do not believe in tough love, because I do. FR's story illustrates it's power. But I do know that if it isn't done right, it can do more harm than good. The exact application must be individualized, ehich none of us have the expertise to do, especially based on a few BBS postings.

Sunny, I shouldn't have been so snappy with you in my last post. Apologies. I'd just got back from a luncheon with a vice president that I don't have a lot of use for. His people have not been following procedures and he and I needed to chat. Well, his idea of chatting is that you tell him what is needed and he start talking bizspeak telling you how "at the end of the day" we must "proactively strive to bring increased value to our clients." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I know that's not an excuse, but my filter was overloaded. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

"Al-anon, while maybe beneficial for many, isn't going to happen. First, I'm already too busy with working, the DD issues, keeping up my house, and dating."


This is just my personal opinion: The comment that LL made, gives me the impression that she's given up on her daughter because she is too busy, I understand the working, and keeping up with house work, but DATING? Perhaps that's why Kayla made the remark about LL needing a man in her life.

I have to say this sentence bothered me too, but I didn't want know how to bring it up. Al-anon only takes 1 hour a week (or more, if you WANT it to), but can make SUCH a difference in your life. When people make a list of excuses as to why they don't have time for something like that, I just don't even know what to say or where to begin. Al-anon is sooooo helpful... it would help you with "working, the DD issues, keeping up the house, and dating". It's NOT just for dealing with an alcoholic. When I started going, it was mainly to learn about my alcoholic sister, but I learned about ME... and learned about MY issues with EVERYONE around me... my xBF, my family, my coworkers, my relationship with God, time-management, stress-management... etc etc etc. Where else can you get all this FREE self-help wrapped up into 1 hour a week?

LL, I encourage you to find a meeting and try it once or twice to see what you think. Every group is different, and every meeting is different, so even trying it once is not a fair taste, but you would benefit so much by looking into it. Just think about it some more, k?

I read this thread, and then left it a bit to give it some thought.

It certainly does sound like LL's daughter would benefit from some change in management, and the underlying concepts of tough love, as I understand them, are pretty similar to the basic concepts of the Cloud and Townsend Boundaries books. There's a lot in there about how to treat those you love responsibly.

But it really concerns me that a mother is:

1. blaming her daughter for her own romantic relationship being unable to progress, when the man in question's own remarks about the matter seem to be more about objecting to the mother's handling of it rather than not wanting anything to do with the daughter

2. not going to Al-Anon and has never gone though she is recovering from the kind of relationship where such a recovery process simply has to be done

3. given the above, saying she's going to implement tough love without the appropriate counseling for herself in her own recovery and without any kind of professional help with managing her approach to her daughter's serious disorders

When I put it all together, this situation screams of more pain waiting to happen for this family. It's frightening.

LL, way to go on deciding on a change. You've got some good ideas. But it's important to respect your daughter enough to know your own limits and to get your own help. What you report about your AO issues alone is reason enough for you to be getting help.

I would agree that 12-step programs can be very helpful, but only for those who are highly motivated to change. You have to get yourself to that stage before you can be helped, and really, these programs help by teaching you to heal yourself. All too often, a 12-step program cannot be the first step. Some issues require individual intervention before attempting a 12-step. The 12-step is the final phase, not the first.

LL, I've read many of your posts and I see that you are grappling with a number of difficult issues, both your own and your daughters. You have too much on your plate and something's got to go. Obviously, that isn't going to be your daughter, your job, or the management of your household. So what's left? You don't need to date, but you do need to get a handle on your anger management issues. The only way to do that is to discover your root anger and deal with it. Do you feel that it may be wise to forego dating for awhile and get your life in order? Do you think that right now dating may serve only to complicate an already dysfunctional life? How is having a man in your life going to make it better? These are your questions to answer and you need to answer them honestly - to yourself, not to us.

I'm going to put myself in your man's shoes for a minute. I don't do this to make you feel bad about yourself, but only to reiterate some perspective that I believe you already have. If I were dating you and discovered that you were grappling with these issues, I would break it off. I would do this because I understand that while you are dealing with them, you cannot effectively engage with me to develop a healthy relationship. I know that I could only make matters worse, since I would distract you from dealing with your issues. The "ouch" part of it is that I wouldn't want to take you and your problems on. I would understand that all that could come of a relationship with you is pain for myself. Ultimately, the relationship would fail. Why would I willingly go there? This isn't to say that I would abandon you if I cared for you, but I would definitely cool the relationship to friendship status, support you where I could, and relegate the possibility for romance to "maybe someday when things are better in her life." If your man isn't thinking this way, you should be questioning his motivation because he may be seeking a relationship with you for all the wrong reasons. You certainly don't need to add another serving of woe to your plate right now.

Maybe I'm way off base, but I refuse to believe that Al-anon, or any other self-help group is a requirement for me to "recover" from my prior relationship. I don't think much about my ex, there are a few things that still trigger me (mainly related to issues of trust--not addiction), and I'm very thankful at this point that I'm no longer involved in it. My anger outbursts are far reduced from what they were in my marriage. I've always been quick-tempered and rather impatient--it's my basic personality. I'm doing better at not building to the point of snapping--it takes a lot to get me there. Finding my house trashed and having my daughter fling "f-you" and scream and storm around when I try and correct her sometimes does cause me to get a little irate, but nothing that anyone else wouldn't be irate at, too.

I'm not avoiding al-anon for any big reasons. I simply don't choose to spend my time making sure I'm at some meeting by 7pm each Wednesday talking to women I don't know. And here's the other deal--I'm rather shy by nature. I don't like going to groups and being the "new" one. It's again, just my personality. I prefer to talk with the people I know--my neighbors, my coworkers, my family and my church. I'm just not a "meetings" type person, and I don't have the motivation to become one. Nor do I think they're going to provide the type of help I need for my DD. She's not a substance abuser. She's defiant. I'd rather find a self-help group for defiant teens, but the closest one I've found so far is in Illinois.

Dating--not ending that. I really care about this guy. I have no intention of giving up on him unless he gives up on me. And I truly don't think I'm pulling him into this "dysfunctional household"--if he does, then he can choose to leave it.

One more thing: Just my opinion but I think too many people wallow in their past, and how it's affected them, and the analyze it and dwell on it. Well, I don't want to dredge it up and analyze it. I just want to say "it's in the past--I'm not there now" and move on.

I don't have issues with my coworkers. Heck, I've been in the work force for 20 years and I think have half-heartedly gone off on someone maybe twice, and it was because I was so frustrated with their total stupidity that I wanted to quit just like half my team had, but I needed the job so I hung in there until they finally replaced him. I don't have issues with any of my family (parents, sister, etc--other than my mother who I've never been particularly close to and don't choose to be, simply because she is rather nutty and she has a gambling problem, and she frustrates me in anything more than small doses. So my boundary now is that I just don't talk to her very often, and if she starts down a path that I'm tired of hearing her dwell on or worry about, or nag me about, I will warn her that I'm going to hang up, and if she doesn't quit, I do hang up. She hasn't gotten an angry verbal earfull from me in years and years. She just gets a hangup.)

Yes, I have issues with my daughter. I don't need anyone to tell me what they are. I've got a pretty good clue already. She's not going to school, she's not working, she expects me to give her everything on a silver platter, and if she doesn't get it, she acts out. It breaks my heart to give and give and have her just take and take and show no respect. I want her to be successful. I just don't know how to help her.

She got a letter from me yesterday (which I read to her and then gave to her) explaining how much I love her, but that as her parent, a big part of my responsibility is to raise her to be self-sufficient, and that while I know she is intelligent and CAN make good choices, the choices she's made lately (I cited examples) are poor choices. Because of this, I will provide food, clothing and shelter, but no phone, internet, or money because those are things she doesn't need.

She got mad..tore up the letter...and left overnight last night. But she's here today, speaking to me, and calmer. That's LL's plan at this moment, as she researches Tough Love.

I am happy overall with where I am, considering where I was 2 years ago. Yes, my daughter has HUGE issues. My BF's statement is that at this point it's like trying to put out a forest fire with a tiny fire extinguisher. But neither he nor I have any better ideas, so I'm starting by taking away all but necessities and at the same time making it clear over and over when she says I"m pushing her away, that no, I'm very willing to let her live here because I love her, but because I love her I am doing what I believe I need to do to help her become an adult.

Truly, I don't think I'm as screwed up and dysfunctional as some of you think. I just have a lot on my plate.

And yes, dating is optional, and I don't NEED a man in my life. But I care about him and I WANT him there, for me.

Warning--selfish statement: I work hard at my career, at trying to parent a difficult child the best I know how with zero support from her other parent, and at maintaining a house on my own. I deserve the opportunity to share my life with someone if I so choose.

LL

I wasn't saying you were screwed up or dysfunctional, just because I suggested Al-anon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I didn't say you had problems with your co-workers or family. I'm very glad that you don't have problems in these areas. I don't consider myself "screwed up or dysfunctional" either, and I benifitted from Al-anon for a few months. That's all I was saying.

I'm sorry for your frustration. I know you don't always like our advice and suggestions. You're a smart lady, and you'll figure this out. Hang in there. You have my thoughts and prayers.

hugs,
Faith1

LL, you write:

"I've always been quick-tempered and rather impatient--it's my basic personality. I'm doing better at not building to the point of snapping--it takes a lot to get me there."

No! There is no personality type that includes anger. Anger building to the point of "snapping" is one of the classic signs of someone repressing long-standing anger. This is not normal and IS a disorder that can and should be treated. Anger is normal and sometime necessary and unavoidable. But long standing anger subtly poisons your life.

I personally don't think you are screwed up and dysfunctional. But I do know that your life most assuredly is dysfunctional. You say you do not have a support network. You MUST build one. There are support groups for parents with troubled children. Many family therapist conduct them. All it's going to take is a bit of looking.

I know you want a man, that's plain. Please read my last post again. I gaurantee that until you get some of these issues resoved, you will noever have a good relationship with any man. Dating shouldn't be on your plate at all right now. I understand that's the last thing you want to hear, but it is the truth. I'm in your corner, but sorry, I don't sugar-coat.

LL, it brings tears to my eyes to read this. You are absolutely right, you deserve to be free from the tyranny you have been living under. You are an amazing woman and niceguy better know how lucky he is. I am very impressed with you.

Stick to your plan...it may work! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If she gets worse, clear out her room of everything but a weeks worth of clothes, a mattress on the floor, a pillow and a wool Army blanket...once she REALLY understands you mean business, most kids will change...

Good luck..I'm pulling for you!

WNB

LL, Have you told her what the ramifications will be when she disobeys you? She has to know that failure to comply with the rules will carry unpleasant consequences. She can get as mad as she wants, but it's going to happen anyway.

You go, girl!

My cousin did this with their daughter...worked wonders!!!!

Depending on how often she eats at home, a NUTRITIOUS daily menu of everything she hates also is a real attention-getter...keeps Protective Services off your back as you have put GOOD food (brussel sprouts and liver come to mind)in front of them...the child is simply choosing not to eat. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It's a long haul battle, but if you really persevere, you can win.

BLUCK!!!!! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

LL -- did you happen to check out the website I quoted?
It has a forum a lot like this one. I think it would be a great place for support on the issues you're dealing with.

And I know its a lot bigger than whether or not a kid eats their vegetables. There's lots of support and ideas for things like expulsion, truancy, theft, delinquency, etc. And specific for kids who have the diagnosis's that ours have. Plus there's lots of information on treatments and meds (if you can get them to take them!)

Good Luck on everything!

Faith,

It wasn't your statement at all that I was referring to when I mentioned that I don't think I'm as screwed up and dysfunctional as some may think. But I am being honest with everyone when I say I'm not intending to do al-anon right now. It's just not something I'm even remotely interested in at this particular point in my life for several reasons.

Check,


While anger itself isn't a personality type, I do believe that everyone has the ability to become angry depending on what happens, but some personality types just are more mellow and laid back than others. And for some people, they may never get to the point where they raise their voice. Other people do, and I don't believe it's because they have all this unresolved anger built up. And yes, I have "snapped" on occasion which is not good. It is happening much less frequently at this point, but I'm willing to bet that some of the things that have pushed me to that point would have pushed a lot of other "seemingly normal" individuals to the same point. Truly, it's a wrong and an unhealthy way to handle things. But I don't think it's totally my issue. I think it has a lot to do with circumstances in life that became extreme, mixed with three personalities that aren't the most laid-back (mine, the ex's, and my dd's). I am no longer in part of those circumstances (the ex is history), but the other (my daughter) I do still deal with daily.

The support network is not all that easy to find where I live. I am researching Lexxxy's on-line link, because I've not found much here in the area. And none of the therapists we've seen have suggested anything of the sort, and we saw people from the two best-known child psychiatry offices here in the city. So my support right now comes from family and friends who've never experienced anything of the sort, and from the guy I date who teaches high school special ed, which is both helpful because he has some good insights, and is difficult because it frustrates him to see my daughter's situation and not know how to fix it.

WHnowBS,

Hey, what the heck is wrong with brussel sprouts and liver???? (I really do like both of those things..)

Okay, both because I don't think she deserves her every whim when it comes to food and because I'm trying to make my life less complicated (and so I'm looking for things that she can cook while I'm at work that create less mess), I am planning on scaling down what I buy at the store for a while, and only buying things off about a 10-item list. I figure we can make just about everything we need to with just these basics. Right now we still have quite a bit of stock to use down to get there, though, because I"m not willing to just throw it away.

Lexxxy,

I finally got a chance to look into that website a little today. I did bookmark it--haven't had a chance to check out the message board yet. There were some depressing things, like the article where the mom saw her son turn around because she was able to basically attach herself to him 24/7, go to school with him, etc. for months. The point--be everywhere with your child until you see them turn around. Great idea in theory, but not feasible for a single mom with no savings. I have to work, and my workdays are often longer than 8 hours because I manage an accounting department. So even if I didn't have a life beyond work (and I do now for the first time in years), I can't be home to monitor what she does and where she goes from 8:30am to somewhere around 7:30pm. So we have to go with different options because I can no longer "force" my child to do something or not do something. I can't control who she hangs with. And I don't see picking up and moving to some different locale to try and get her with a different group of friends to be an option. She will gravitate to a certain type of kid no matter where she is--it comes with the ADHD/ODD. I think they seek out their own. So, unless I feel that she's in a situation that could be life or death (i.e., she's somewhere and has called me for a ride because her friends are drinking--I will come get her in those situations), I am going to allow her to make her own choices and also to deal with the consequences of the choices.

Right now, she has no cell phone and no recreation money or allowance from me. She does have her internet back because she has put forth a bit of effort on some independent study projects that her school gave her to work on for class credit until she gets to try coming back to school 2nd quarter. I expect to see progress made each day on the projects. If I see none, she has been told that internet will go away again.

To all: Yes, the household situation can itself be a little dysfunctional at times--like when I had to drop everything at 11:30pm on Saturday night and jump in my car and drive downtown to pick her up because the girl she rode down with was at some party drunk. The guy I'm seeing was at my place and offered to go with me, so he got the full treat of what can happen. But unless she decides to turn over a new leaf, it really doesn't matter what I do--things may be like this for a few years. I don't feel like I should have to put my life on hold when there's really not a lot more I can do beyond what I'm trying to do right now.

LL

"But I don't think it's totally my issue."

No. YOUR anger is completely YOUR issue and you can never, ever blame someone else. Someone else may do something to anger you, but you own the anger and only you can deal with it.

LL, Everyone gets angry occasionally and often with good reason. That's not the kind of anger I'm talking about. It isn't that we get angry that is a problem, but rather how we deal with it. Some of us are taught as children that anger is some sort of sin or personal failing and learn to suppress it. Some of us have deep-rooted anger that has never been dealt with. When this happens, we have a tendancy to suppress our anger, so that it builds and builds until we "snap" and blow up. This is neither normal nor healthy, and it is one of the number one reasons for failed relationships. Suppressed anger will poison every aspect of our lives and must be dealt with.

So if you "snap," even from time to time, you need to learn to express with anger in a healthy way. There are many good books out there dealing with anger issues. Believe me about this. I once had a problem with suppressed anger (unresolved anger at my parents) that I had to get a handle on. As soon as I learned to let the anger go, I found that I was far less likely to become angry and dealt with it much more effectively. Now it takes quite a bit to bet me angry and I deal with it on the spot and in healthy ways, such as directing it at who it needs to be directed, in a calm, non-hostile way, and letting the person know how they have angered me. I don't always succeed at this, but I do catch myself before I become too angry.

Think about this. How can you effectively help your daughter get a handle on her anger if you don't have a handle on your own. I don't mean to suggest that you are some sort of anger-ridden sicko, but I think you can understand that if you blow up at your ODD daughter, even if she richly deserves it, you are just throwing gasoline on a fire.