Now for something really cool.....

Giver/Taker ... or as Harley says: "We all have split personalities"

The Giver's Rule ... do whatever you can to make others happy and avoid anything that makes others unhappy even it it makes you unhappy.

Everyone has a giver. EVERYONE. Freeloaders, Renters, Buyers .... criminals ... Grandma .... your MIL .... your cheating spouse.... your faithful spouse. Our Giver wants us to make a positive difference in the lives of others and it grows out of our instinct to provide care. "give until it hurts"

The Taker's Rule ... do whatever you can to make yourself happy and avoid anything that makes you unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy.

Everyone has a Taker. EVERYONE. Freeloaders, Renters, Buyers ... criminals ... Grandma ... your MIL ... your cheating spouse ... your faithful spouse ... Our Taker wants us to get the most out of life, and it grows out of our basic instinct for self-preservation. "get what you need in life"

Harley says:

"It is tempting to consider the Giver as our caring nature and the Taker as our thoughtless nature.

But that's NOT what they are.

Actually, they are BOTH caring.

Your Giver cares for others

and

Your Taker cares for you"

!!!!!!!!!!!! KEWL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wait .... there's MORE !!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Harley goes on to say:

[i]" Both Giver and Taker also have their thoughtless sides.

Your Giver does NOT CARE how YOU feel.

and

Your Taker does NOT CARE how others feel. "

!!!!!! REALLY KEWL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> and there's more !!!!

Harley says:

" In fact your Giver is willing to see YOU suffer even to the point of deep depression as long as you continue to care about others.

Your Taker is willing to see others suffer if it means you are happy or are prevented from suffering. "

So, we ALL have a Giver and a Taker

and they are both good ... because

they both care (Giver cares for others, Taker cares for you)

AND

they are both bad ... because

they are both thoughtless (Giver cares nothing about your feelings, Taker cares nothing about the feelings for others)

~~ Here's the importnt point Harley makes~~

"Because each of them ignores someone's feelings, they are both shortsighted. They fail to understand that you and others should be cared for and protected simultaneously, so that no one suffers"

So

Freeloader
Renter
Buyer

represent our agreement in our romantic relationships

while Giver/Taker are instinctive influences to everyone irregardless of our current agreement

Harley says:

"The Buyer's, Renter's, Freeloader's agreements determine how the Giver and Taker influence each of us."

..... and it's interesting that both the Buyer's and the Freeloader's agreements hold our Giver and Taker in check.

Both Freeloader's and Buyer's agreements disallow us to become self-sacrificing in our romantic relationship.

Freeloader's agreement and Buyer's agreements do not allow us to expect others to self-sacrifice in a romantic relationship.

But for very different reasons .....

Freeloaders feel that the right relationship should be effortless and people should only do what comes naturally.

Buyer's assume a long-term romantic relationship requires mutually enjoyable accomodation and encourages behavioral change to resolve conflict.

SO ..... those of us who are the faithful partner and thereby assume we are automatically THE BUYER in the relationship ... think again ! It is equally possible we are RENTERS .... especially if we are [/b]willing to sacrifice ourselves[/b] in order to "save the marriage" ....

If you are willing to sacrifice your needs for the relationship, you are no longer a Buyer.

understand?

Now that I read that latest part, yes. I have let my Giver rule haven't I? I think I am so far gone I don't even know what my needs are! So, I am a renter and he is a freeloader, correct???

I think the only value in these lables is using them to self-correct.... and to understand what makes relationships work at first but later contriutes to the fall ....

I am going to get to the most interesting thing ... the Renter/Renter agreement

and how it inspires arguements and fights because it allows sacrificing to enter the relationship !!!!

The Renter's agreement places NO RESTRICTIONS on the Giver and the Taker.

Renters accept the sacrifice of others in a romantic relationship.

Renters accept the sacrifice of the self in a romantic relationship.

When a couple opens the door to expecting sacrifice of each other, arguements and fights and resentments are the result.

.... but it doesn't start off like that .... it starts off looking rather pleasant and feeling rather lovey-dovey ..... because Renters begin their romance with mutual sacrifice.

Givers control the courtship. Both Renters are in Giver-mode sacrificing in order to make the other happy ... and all is great .... as long as both partners stay in Giver mode.

But, no one does. Because Giver mode 24/7 is short-sighted and does not care for the self.

So ... the love and care Renter/Giver to Renter/Giver supply each other is UNpleasant because it ignores our Taker .... who cares for us. And this sacrifice for love takes it's toll.

Harley says it this way:

"A relationship based on sacrifice does not keep partners in a good mood. In fact, over time it tends to create a very BAD mood between partners. And whenever we are in a bad mood, our Takers come to our rescue.~ Are you unhappy? That's because you've been giving too much. Now it's time for you to do some taking~, our Taker whispers to us. "

Does anyone else see how similar this looks to how an affair begins between two married people ????

Pep,

This is an excellent thread. I have learned so much from what you have said here.....

It makes me see that I have not balanced my giver/taker personalities very well.

I see now that in the last 5 months my giver has been in control without the taker doing anything. My taker finally whispered loud enough for me to hear it. I finally realized I had to start standing up for myself and balance things out.

So now that i have them in some type of sync things should start looking up.

I do believe though I am still in buyer mode for now... WH who the heck knows. He used to be a buyer but I think now he is a freeloader...

sigh...oh too familiar I am afraid. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Which may help understand ~why~ most affair relationships are doomed to fail ....

this happends....

When someone feels the unpleasant effects of all their sacrificing .... stress enters .... and their Taker starts demanding a little "me time" .... and they express "If you won't give me what I need when I ask for it, I'll make you give it to me."

manipulation begins .... choose your weapons

Harley says:

"Demands are usually the first step in an arguement."

"When one partner tells the other what to do, it's because his or her Taker suggests that the demand is reasonable."

~after all~ your partner OWES YOU .... you have sacrificed sooooooo much .... and your partner OUGHT TO sacrifice for YOU now !!!!

~~~~~~boxing gloves on ! My Taker is going to take on your Taker.... good pun <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

well, without excusing myself cuz there IS no excuse..I can see where my A vulnerability came in. Pep, this is really interesting because I started examining our lives as a whole even as far as property owners go. My H is a renter in those areas through and through. I can see where a lot of our imbalance comes in.

FaithfulFollower said:


not only your Giver .... your Taker has had it's day as well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The ANGER and cursing are your Taker's way of coming to the rescue when your Giver has been unchecked.

Hunny ... I began this thread with you in mind .... in case you could not tell .... BUT it applies EQUALLY to me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

{{Pep}} You are one heck of a friend and a very patient lady. I am quite a block head! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't reach out to block heads ... too annoying !

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

double

I realized you lack a certain perspecitve ... and your intellect was the most likely way to approach you at this time.... coz your feelings are soooo muddled .... but so what?

I figure if you can study and understand these things ... you can blaze your own trail out of the woods you're in .... with or without your husband.

I suggest, FF, that you make a comprehensive study of 'sacrifice' and how you value 'sacrifice' as a tool for getting what you need .... no matter who is doing the sacrificing.

Sound like a plan?