Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

Renters believe Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.

Love that - wish I could print it off & give it to WH!!!

Kim

Pep, can you post the definition of a renter and a buyer? Thanks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doinf some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

According to Harley

most happily married couples have worked their way up from Freeloaders to Renters and finally to Buyers.

He says the problem arises when partners do not eventually become Buyers.

Thanks, Pep, that makes great sense. AGree that Dr Harley is a very smart man.

Some more Willard to chew on:

"The real commitment of marriage is not a commitment to stay regardless of how you are treated. It's a commitment to care for each other regardless of the circumstances you find yourselves in."

also....

"Marriage means that each spouse is commited to make a GREATER effort to care for each other than they were making BEFORE marriage, a GREATER effort to meet each other's intimate needs."

really something to think about for all of us ....

... which brings us to POJA

which is adopting the Buyer's strategy

means you must consider both your interests ~and~ your partner's interests

up to the point of bilateral enthusiastic agreement

which means NO ONE sacrifices their happiness for the other's .... you seek mutual happiness

The good doctor says that couples who do not practice POJA skills gradually develop incompatable lifestyles....

Good job Pepperband!!!!

J
7y recovery <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

At first I was thinking you were talking about lemonman.

I do not have this book, but tonight I pulled out Give and Take - The Secret to Marital Compatibility.

Suz

Freeloader/Buyer relationships

most are remnants of a relationship that had once been Buyer/Buyer

if a Buyer becomes a Freeloader, it's usually because he or she has had an affair

(this is directly from Harley's book)

"even though a Buyer is commited to an exclusive and permanent relationship, that dosen't necessarily mean he or she can't fall in love with someone else"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> ... which is ~why~ this board exists !!!!!

"By becoming a Freeloader instead of a Buyer, they are able to keep an affair alive while still offering hope to their betrayed partner."

.... we recognize the cake-eating fence sitting alien-brained babbling WS anywhere ....

next comes the REALLY interesting stuff

waiting
tap tap tap

so now the former Buyer/Buyer agreement has become Freeloader/Buyer due to an affair

the Freeloader is trying to make up their mind about which relationship they want the most

Harley says: "Their new beliefs bewilder the betrayed partner."

.... duh.... we KNOW that Dr. Harley !! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"The betrayed partner tries to argue from the Buyer's perspective~ 'How could you even think of having another relationship? We are together for life!'

The confused unfaithful partner shakes his or her head and finally says ....

'I guess we were not meant to be together.' ....

Harley says that what we need to understand is that the affair TOTALLY changed the WS's agreement.

Harley sites research that says

it is easier for most people to change their beliefs and values than it is to change their behavior

I REALLY DON'T LIKE THIS !!! I must say .... but we have to deal with what is true and not with what we like ... back to Harley...

He says when beliefs and values are in conflict with behavior .... guess which one wins ~~~> yep, you guessed it ~~~`> behavior wins .... the beliefs and values are scraped in order to accomodate the behavior (the affair)

yuk!

Harley says that the Buyer/Buyer agreement CAN BE restored when the affair has finally ended.

BUT .... you ~knew~ there was gonna be a but didn't you?

this does not usually work if the unfaithful partner was NEVER a Buyer

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

Remember it is easier for most people to change their beliefs and values than it is to change their behavior ... which is why it is DUMB to try and "talk" a WS back home.

Harley says this is Plan A time .... the betrayed Buyer does his or her best to treat the unfaithful Freeloader with care, even while the affair is going on. ~~~> because "most affairs die a natural death"

Which is why after a reasonable amount of time has passed, Harley recommends Plan B .... which turns the faithful Buyer into a renter !!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Plan B is a renter's plan .... makes sense, doesn't it?

This is a fresh look at Plan B for me ...thinking of it as a fundamental change for the faithful/Buyer spouse ~~~> transitioning into a faithful/Renter position.

Harley says "The relationship between Buyer and freeloader is a disaster for the Buyer."

"When a Buyer and a Freeloader are in a romantic relationship, the most sensible solution, which is to end the relationship with the Freeloader, is not an alternative. That leaves only two reasonable options."

"One is to convert the freeloader back into a Buyer restoring their mutual care."

"The other is to convert the Buyer into a Renter or Freeloader, which allows him or her to leave the relationship."

I think this is pretty darn interesting....

I can think of many MB posters who are the Faithful/Buyer, married to a Renter or a Freeloader ...

and they are loath to convert his/her self into a Renter in order to ease out of the painful dilemma of being married to a non-commited spouse.

What an awful place to be .... it is as if the Buyer has to change ~their own~ beliefs and values in order to avoid a life of neglect and painful betrayal.

but remember what Harley said ...

it is easier to change your beliefs and values than it is to change your behavior .... especially those dearly held values dealing with marriage and commitment....

Now ... if you are a betrayed spouse

go back and re-read the first post on this thread ....

this time thinking Plan A = Buyer

and Plan B = Renter

.... perhaps this will help ... I hope

here it is.....

So when can a buyer sell or get their $$ back? Or is this a non-refundable purchase? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

I don't understand this one. Seems like it should be the other way around..

How does he explain this?

I guess I need to get the book....

Mimi,
I think this is because when a POJA is in place no one sacrifices thier happiness for the other. Sacrifices is not a healthy feeling. The goal would be mutual happiness and not sacrifice.


Danielle

Given this, it seems that BOTH partners SACRIFICE their SELFISH DESIRES for each other...

Post deleted by ray3

Think of POJA as the ~Holy Grail~ for creating a marriage of mutual compatibility

and enthusiastic support for major decisions implies a respect for the long-term happiness of both partners

this does not mean compromise is not to be found ... but it must be enthusiastic and genuine ... which eliminates sacrifice which is a disingenuous method of manipulating one's spouse

every sacrifice we ask of our partner or of ourselves is a step ~away~ from a mutually enjoyable relationship

think of the relationship ~itself~ as a third person in the marriage ... and choosing what is best for the relationship instead of what is best for only one partner .... does that make it easier?

Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders

not really

who defines "selfish" ?

If a decision does not create enthusiasm for both ... the decision needs to be negotiated until both are pleased with the decision <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and the decision creates a compatible environment

The book is now called The One.

Personally, this is my favorite book of his. We had a Renter's relationship, and Harley says sooner or later Renter relationships become abusive. BOTH people feel like they got the short end of the stick.

Cherished

yes... because of the Renter's tendency to think that sacrifice is good for the relationship ... which is bullocky

OK...OK...I get it now.. POJA

COMPROMISE that is ENTHUSIASTIC AND GENUINE...NOT SACRIFICE...

I agree with this....

I knew you would Mimi ... but you were snagged a little on the verbage and the notion that 'sacrifice' is noble ... and it is noble in some circumstances ... but it makes for seriously UNbalanced marriages

SACRIFICE

Hearing the FOW tell my H: "Going back to her after I gave up everything for you?"

Ah-hah...the RENTER'S MENTALITY.....

[color:"red"] EGG ZAK LEE [/color]

Pep - Don't you think that some people are just naturally buyers? And some people just freeloaders?

I think I was a buyer in our marriage, but also in my job, my volunteer work, raising kids, in my education, in my friendships, and the rest of life.

My WH tends to stay at the freeloader/renter stage. He used to be a very good man. What I liked most about him was the way he treated everyone well. But he has an underlying weakness - like a renter, he is ready to move at the drop of a hat - if something looks like a better deal.

I am easily satisfied. If I buy a house, I love it. It can be a very humble home, not sparkling new, with the greatest view, or huge with all of the amenities, but I grow very attached.

I think personality and FOO has some bearing .. as does the current CULTURE of acceptance for infidelity in media of every sort.

Let me think about this for a little ...

Harley does say that none of us BEGIN a new relationship as a Buyer ...

Believer ... Harley talks about 'habit' and 'behavior' as difficult to change .... maybe that's what you are refering to ???

Dr Harley's daughter Jennifer and I discussed this in regards to my situation.

she said that right now my H and OW are both renters

and each has sacrificed up SO MUCH so they could be together-they started living together "evenly having sacrificed"

my H sacrificed a sports car he loved, a big new truck he traded in for a small used one, a home with a huge yard and a pool, the respect of his family especially his father, the lifestyle offerred by having two good incomes (and he still worried about money then!) and the peace of having no children, (which is so important to him), and both his dogs (he gets to visit them but he gave them up to me-if i move they are gone!) oh yeah...and a woman who loves him unconditionally! (a buyer!!)

these are the things that i know of that the OW sacrificed (I"m sure there are many more) LIVING WITH HER 4 CHILDREN!!!, she left her mother whose home she was living in and the affair has devestated her mother, a house with a pool, a husband who made enoguh money that she could be a stay at home mom (her husband said she never wanted to work) and her husband who was a buyer!

Jennifer said that eventually resentment will builds between them because of what they have given up

and the balance will shift-where one of them expects the other to give something up so they get something (ex: if OW wants to spend holidays with her children-she gets what she wants most but my H will have to settle for being alone or with his family or when OW goes to thier football games with her husband while my H sits at home alone

it's already started, OW had to go back to work part time

my H had to trade in his big, new for a small, used one so he could make payments on her new van

so the more this happens, AND JENNIFER SAID IT WILL HAPPEN, the more resentment builds and love busting occurs

they are renters....in this only as long as it makes them happy and gives them what they want

It won't be giving them what they want and they won't be happy

this is why affairs die a natural death

this is why she told me to hangg in even for another 1 1/2 years because in up to 2 years of living together, this should happen

she recommended this book to me

Pep- I'll have to get the book. I've read so many good things about it.

I'm just curious, because my personality is that of a buyer - but with everything. If I do volunteer work, I commit to doing a good job, looking for ways to improve, seeing it to the end, no matter what it takes. Same with friends.

I was reading something by Pittman last week, that the happiest marriages are where both people are EQUALLY invested, both doing the work. My marriage was never like that, nor was our family.

Won't make that mistake again.

I know you won't ... because you have learned so much !

just for fun ... what is your 'sign' ?

I am a cancer .... tend to be fiercly loyal

[color:"red"] EGG ZAK LEE [/color]

Pep -My sign is taurus.

Eav -

Good point. That is one of the main reasons that affairs end. Usually both people have sacrificed too much. Then there are a lot of expectations for the relationship - in reality, too many expectations.

My WH have up his home, 2 incomes, a blended (and very close) family, and a fairly good marriage. OW gave up her home, being a SAHM, her 12 year old daughter. Now they live in a dump, and both have to work.

I'm cancer too! ( i bet that doesn't surprise anyone whose read my thread!)

I feel unimaginative , predictable and dull because I'm a buyer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Buyers are exciting and imaginative because it takes a lot of creativity to POJA a marriage !!!!!

Oh My!

This is literally my FWH..to the point that he seldom BOUGHT the "poor" (financially and spiritually) OW anything in the beginning. He is/was a BUYER who enjoyed being able to FREELOAD.....

Oh, MY GOD..DR. HARLEY IS BRILLIANT!!

This is EXACTLY MY SITUATION..

Was he living in my house? I had this same conversation with my then WH. I said these same words and so did he!!

During PLAN B, my then WH became afraid that I was changing from being a BUYER and was turning into a RENTER...

He thought I would be waiting until his lease was up with the RENTER...

He knew that the OW was a RENTER..two previous divorces before age 30...

I guess he was hoping that at some point she would turn into a BUYER....

I find this to be such a helpful and interesting perspective...

Thanks for starting the thread, Pep,

I haven't read the book, so this helps me to better understand the 'conversion' from H to WH, and why they seem to be two different people.

Now, I guess, it would help for me to figure out if my H ever became a Buyer in our M or was he a Renter/Freeloader in disguise all along. Because, from what's been said, if WH was never a Buyer in M, recovery of M is practically impossible ??!!?? Can one be married for over 20 yrs and remain for all that time a Freeloader/Renter??!! I would think he must have been a Buyer in M at some point.

So, technically I am a Renter (just having a hard time being one because I was a Buyer and did not choose/want to be a Renter!)

Geesh! Never thought I would come to this Board to take a science course, or better still, a real estate course!

I just read my paper, and there's a funny comic today that made me think of this thread. I couldnt find it on line, or I would have linked it.

It's Rhymes with Orange. A man wearing fishing gear is sitting at a table with a woman. He says "I dont think this is going to work out. You're a keeper, and I'm a Catch-and-Release type of guy".

Dontcha wish the Catch & Release types would wear a sign? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So, I am hoping someone smarter than I ( BrambleRose ? ) comes along

.... because I am wondering if an otherwise addicted person can even reach the level of Buyer ....

I am thinking no .... I am thinking perhaps they are Renters on usually good behavior !!! *shrug*
anyone?

Was thinking about "Tiny" the new poster who is a WW (Was a Renter I think and became a Freeloader during her affair) and her H is an addict .... he has obviously NEVER been a Buyer ... was he a Renter and then a Freeloader as his addiction worsened?

any ideas?

My husband and I were both buyers until the house started needing repairs, and the in-laws house started making demands, and we started to ignore our house, which started to age and fall apart do to neglect of maintenence, then due to negligence the payment wasn't made until finally they repoed the house, now we live together and are both renters with our bags packed, looking for better place to live but hoping to become buyers again. We are in a lease to own place, with the agreement if we complete the repairs fully restoring it to its orignial shape and then improving it. When all of that is done we will then become buyers again.

That was all the buyer/renter theory.
Can anyone decipher what I said?????

yeah, you are in recovery ... early stages

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />Another buyer that is a cancer here!

Aw Pep, you already knew me, no fair. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

You know, it's refreshing to read a thread on here that is actually about putting Harley principles through the paces of reality.

Interesting stuff, pepperband. I would say that we entered marriage as Renters, but Clark cycled back and forth between Renter and Freeloader as his sex/romance addiction cycled. At the time of the last A, I probably had a Buyer mentality, while he was Freeloading it. Through the first year of recovery, I did downgrade to Renter, while he upgraded to a Buyer mentality almost immediately.

FWIW, he's a Taurus, and I'm a Scorp. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Supposedly, I was the one more "prone" to cheating.

THIS part is similar to our experience .... I collapsed into Renter and he sprung into Buyer .... my H led our recovery ...

This is so true. I'm glad Dr. Harley put it into words for us.

Ok, so since my H and I lived together first we started out as renters. I did not move truly into the buyer mode until after my A I think. It was when I became a Christian and truly understood the committment that I became a buyer. I do not believe that my H has ever progressed to buyer but has been a renter, now freeloader all along. Since he has such addictive and flighty tendencies I would guess he may not ever be a buyer. Hmmmm...

Now for something really cool.....

Giver/Taker ... or as Harley says: "We all have split personalities"

The Giver's Rule ... do whatever you can to make others happy and avoid anything that makes others unhappy even it it makes you unhappy.

Everyone has a giver. EVERYONE. Freeloaders, Renters, Buyers .... criminals ... Grandma .... your MIL .... your cheating spouse.... your faithful spouse. Our Giver wants us to make a positive difference in the lives of others and it grows out of our instinct to provide care. "give until it hurts"

The Taker's Rule ... do whatever you can to make yourself happy and avoid anything that makes you unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy.

Everyone has a Taker. EVERYONE. Freeloaders, Renters, Buyers ... criminals ... Grandma ... your MIL ... your cheating spouse ... your faithful spouse ... Our Taker wants us to get the most out of life, and it grows out of our basic instinct for self-preservation. "get what you need in life"

Harley says:

"It is tempting to consider the Giver as our caring nature and the Taker as our thoughtless nature.

But that's NOT what they are.

Actually, they are BOTH caring.

Your Giver cares for others

and

Your Taker cares for you"

!!!!!!!!!!!! KEWL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wait .... there's MORE !!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Harley goes on to say:

[i]" Both Giver and Taker also have their thoughtless sides.

Your Giver does NOT CARE how YOU feel.

and

Your Taker does NOT CARE how others feel. "

!!!!!! REALLY KEWL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> and there's more !!!!

Harley says:

" In fact your Giver is willing to see YOU suffer even to the point of deep depression as long as you continue to care about others.

Your Taker is willing to see others suffer if it means you are happy or are prevented from suffering. "

So, we ALL have a Giver and a Taker

and they are both good ... because

they both care (Giver cares for others, Taker cares for you)

AND

they are both bad ... because

they are both thoughtless (Giver cares nothing about your feelings, Taker cares nothing about the feelings for others)

~~ Here's the importnt point Harley makes~~

"Because each of them ignores someone's feelings, they are both shortsighted. They fail to understand that you and others should be cared for and protected simultaneously, so that no one suffers"

So

Freeloader
Renter
Buyer

represent our agreement in our romantic relationships

while Giver/Taker are instinctive influences to everyone irregardless of our current agreement

Harley says:

"The Buyer's, Renter's, Freeloader's agreements determine how the Giver and Taker influence each of us."

..... and it's interesting that both the Buyer's and the Freeloader's agreements hold our Giver and Taker in check.

Both Freeloader's and Buyer's agreements disallow us to become self-sacrificing in our romantic relationship.

Freeloader's agreement and Buyer's agreements do not allow us to expect others to self-sacrifice in a romantic relationship.

But for very different reasons .....

Freeloaders feel that the right relationship should be effortless and people should only do what comes naturally.

Buyer's assume a long-term romantic relationship requires mutually enjoyable accomodation and encourages behavioral change to resolve conflict.

SO ..... those of us who are the faithful partner and thereby assume we are automatically THE BUYER in the relationship ... think again ! It is equally possible we are RENTERS .... especially if we are [/b]willing to sacrifice ourselves[/b] in order to "save the marriage" ....

If you are willing to sacrifice your needs for the relationship, you are no longer a Buyer.

understand?

Now that I read that latest part, yes. I have let my Giver rule haven't I? I think I am so far gone I don't even know what my needs are! So, I am a renter and he is a freeloader, correct???

I think the only value in these lables is using them to self-correct.... and to understand what makes relationships work at first but later contriutes to the fall ....

I am going to get to the most interesting thing ... the Renter/Renter agreement

and how it inspires arguements and fights because it allows sacrificing to enter the relationship !!!!

The Renter's agreement places NO RESTRICTIONS on the Giver and the Taker.

Renters accept the sacrifice of others in a romantic relationship.

Renters accept the sacrifice of the self in a romantic relationship.

When a couple opens the door to expecting sacrifice of each other, arguements and fights and resentments are the result.

.... but it doesn't start off like that .... it starts off looking rather pleasant and feeling rather lovey-dovey ..... because Renters begin their romance with mutual sacrifice.

Givers control the courtship. Both Renters are in Giver-mode sacrificing in order to make the other happy ... and all is great .... as long as both partners stay in Giver mode.

But, no one does. Because Giver mode 24/7 is short-sighted and does not care for the self.

So ... the love and care Renter/Giver to Renter/Giver supply each other is UNpleasant because it ignores our Taker .... who cares for us. And this sacrifice for love takes it's toll.

Harley says it this way:

"A relationship based on sacrifice does not keep partners in a good mood. In fact, over time it tends to create a very BAD mood between partners. And whenever we are in a bad mood, our Takers come to our rescue.~ Are you unhappy? That's because you've been giving too much. Now it's time for you to do some taking~, our Taker whispers to us. "

Does anyone else see how similar this looks to how an affair begins between two married people ????

Pep,

This is an excellent thread. I have learned so much from what you have said here.....

It makes me see that I have not balanced my giver/taker personalities very well.

I see now that in the last 5 months my giver has been in control without the taker doing anything. My taker finally whispered loud enough for me to hear it. I finally realized I had to start standing up for myself and balance things out.

So now that i have them in some type of sync things should start looking up.

I do believe though I am still in buyer mode for now... WH who the heck knows. He used to be a buyer but I think now he is a freeloader...

sigh...oh too familiar I am afraid. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Which may help understand ~why~ most affair relationships are doomed to fail ....

this happends....

When someone feels the unpleasant effects of all their sacrificing .... stress enters .... and their Taker starts demanding a little "me time" .... and they express "If you won't give me what I need when I ask for it, I'll make you give it to me."

manipulation begins .... choose your weapons

Harley says:

"Demands are usually the first step in an arguement."

"When one partner tells the other what to do, it's because his or her Taker suggests that the demand is reasonable."

~after all~ your partner OWES YOU .... you have sacrificed sooooooo much .... and your partner OUGHT TO sacrifice for YOU now !!!!

~~~~~~boxing gloves on ! My Taker is going to take on your Taker.... good pun <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

well, without excusing myself cuz there IS no excuse..I can see where my A vulnerability came in. Pep, this is really interesting because I started examining our lives as a whole even as far as property owners go. My H is a renter in those areas through and through. I can see where a lot of our imbalance comes in.

FaithfulFollower said:


not only your Giver .... your Taker has had it's day as well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The ANGER and cursing are your Taker's way of coming to the rescue when your Giver has been unchecked.

Hunny ... I began this thread with you in mind .... in case you could not tell .... BUT it applies EQUALLY to me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

{{Pep}} You are one heck of a friend and a very patient lady. I am quite a block head! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't reach out to block heads ... too annoying !

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

double

I realized you lack a certain perspecitve ... and your intellect was the most likely way to approach you at this time.... coz your feelings are soooo muddled .... but so what?

I figure if you can study and understand these things ... you can blaze your own trail out of the woods you're in .... with or without your husband.

I suggest, FF, that you make a comprehensive study of 'sacrifice' and how you value 'sacrifice' as a tool for getting what you need .... no matter who is doing the sacrificing.

Sound like a plan?

I came to the same conclusion recently. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Ok, would you suggest starting with reading this particular book? Or follow through with what I started a couple days ago of actually identifing my needs, my goals, my dreams?

Also, curious if Harley believes a lifetime renter can become a buyer or if renters can live forever on "good behavior"? I do believe my H and I both have serious codependency issues. He seems to need to "rescue" as well as long as it is away from home. He family history is addicts and codependents.

Oh...just saw this one. Ok. I did recognize myself in the "sacrifice is valued" stuff you posted. I think I will get this particular book today.

I like this ... start at the source ... yourself.

If you don't know yourself, where else should you begin? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Next part will be

Dependency and Control ....

we'll work through it together .... coz as everyone on MB knows ... I've had personal issues of 'control' too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> LOL

but .... this is a good start right here .... don't rush out for more 'info' until you have thoroughly dug up what your needs and desires and goals are .... more later ... got stuff to do

have a date later with my sweetie and gotta shave those legs ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> (not his legs, my legs)

Oh the picture in my mind.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Ok, so I will continue on with my personal exploration and not muck up my head with more books for the moment. Thanks, Pep. You truly are a gem. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Just wanted you to know I am still working on what I promised. I saw the Harley/Lewis thread too.

Well ... I am feeling far to silly to have a deep discussion today ... so let's put this off just a tad longer . because you know, I HONOR my silly side whenever she decides it's time to play <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I like silliness! Play away! I was looking for a silly witch for Mel. Haven't found the right one yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ding, ding, ding...

Sorry, getting in late on this thread. I've been off having fun on a Mediterranean island with the kids while WH has been busy pretending he is a single man.

I've started reading the Language óf Letting Go and Co-dependent No More by Meloody Beatty. Although the books, particularily the Language of Letting Go are proving helpful stimuless for detatching emotionally from WH, I don't view myself as chronically co-dependant.

I see now that I will have to add ANOTHER book to the stack of R and self-improvement books that is growing next to my bedside.

Hmmmm.... detatching and changing into a Renter.
This makes sense. Changing from Buyer/Freeloader to Renter/Freeloader.....

but willing to negotiate for Buyer/Buyer. I won't settle for Renter/Renter or Buyer/Renter. And Renter/Freeloader is only temporary.

Harley says:

[color:"blue"]"What I'm saying is that your Taker needs to be enthusiastic about every decision. This doesn't rule out short-term sacrifice, though, because your Taker can be enthusiastic about some forms of sacrifice, if they're in your long-term interest." [/color]

[color:"red"]"But when you agree to something reluctantly, it means you are sacrificing with no personal gain in sight. You are doing it for someone else's gain. That's why your Taker usually tries to sabotage any agreement you have made reluctantly." [/color]

The Buyers approach to problem solving.

Byers don't try to control each other.

Buyers don't make demands.

Buyers don't show disrespect or lose their temper.

They solve their problems by negotiating solutions that are win/win.

dependency You are dependent when what you recive is not balanced by what you give in return.

How can we create a dependent spouse? When we are in the early/Renter romantic stages of a relationship, we tend to give and give and give ~~~> sacrifical giving. And all that giving creates a DEPENDENCY in our spouse. All that giving creates EXPECTATIONS that are unrealistic in a long-term romantic relationship.

Giving without wanting anything in return ~~~> the Giver is running wild and unchecked.

What does that create in the other spouse? Their Taker is given free reign. "gimme gimme gimme"

This sets up opportunity for abusive relationships where one spouse is giver heavy and the other is Taker heavy.

No balance. No give-take. The GIVER is the one who creates this ... by sacrificing and essentially training their spouses' Taker that there are no limits to how much sacrificing their spouse might submit to.

Control Once you reach a point where you have your spouse depending on you , you are now in a position to control your spouse.

While our Giver sets up dependency by encouraging us to give unconditionally, our Taker has no such generous motives.

Our Taker will not be denied ! Now that your spouse is dependant on you, your Taker wants to control what the spouse must do in order to payback for all the sacrificing !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

So if my Giver-gone-wild has set up my spouse to become dependant on me ... what happends to my Taker side? My Taker begins to feel that this situation is terribly unfair, and starts to grumble and complain ... and then make demands, start fights and generally tries to control my spouse... and I might even run off and have an affair "Because I have done so much for this marriage and never get anything in return ... it's MY TURN to do something just for me"

yuk

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Ok, I see..yes that is what happened. A little difference being that my H was a very giving man UNTIL he moved in with me. That spun my head for quite a while and my Taker was roaring! As we settled into marriage and parenthood my giver was in charge until my Dd was about 2. Then my taker got pissed again. That is when my A came in.

Honor your Taker as much as your Giver FF ... I think that is the lession I am getting from all of this

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

pep,


Thats my WH ... what you just said reminds me of what he told me over and over since this crap happened.

its My Turn ..... Famous last words...... spoken by a WH who don't know his head from a hole in the ground....

Problem is he gave no more that I did ...... He just got stupid....

I am making my slow, clumsy attempts at this Pep. Changing the dynamic of a family is difficult but I am liking how it feels to me. My angry moments come when I let my giver rule the world. At least now I am becoming aware of it and stop. Baby steps of progress.

I would be very careful if I were you .... think about this a bit more ... try to find your weakness not his ...

yeah, that's correct .... and then, the angry outburst just feels "so justified" ... know what I mean ... and the release of pressure then allows the UBER-Giver to take over once more...

more yuk

That makes so much sense.

It's easy to see how such an environment could be created without anyone even realizing it.

Thank you!

I am meandering my way toward a major discussion about POJA .... stick around FIM.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

POJA is my goal post and I wanna make a touchdown ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I realize that I do the same. It makes me wonder how much my giver gives out of love and how much it gives to set up a winning score.

Hmmmm.

I've been following this thread religiously and am glad I feel in a position that I can participate now that I have some life issues out of the way.

I had just asked DH to read this thread specifically for the POJA posts so I am glad to know that's where you are heading!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Good question!

Yup, guilty <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

yeah ... good question ... gotta quit now ... seeyalater

Pep,

I am thinking on that now.... I will get back to you....

Well here is something surprising..I think my WH is attempting to move up to renter from freeloader! Since I have begun to make some changes in our household dynamics he seems to be responding in a positive way. My older DS and DD are now getting higher expectations from Mom and are responding well. No more martydrom here from you know who (me). WH has responded by taking back the care of the dog, doing some minor improvements around the home that I gently requested and admitting that we cannot really properly care for our rental property and perhaps we should sell it to someone who can! Not only that but my approach to this Ms Pep has been from the homeowner perspective. We have discussed the positives of making a list of home improvement projects and then prioritizing them as well as budgeting for them. Hmmm...even if I move on without WH these changes are very good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Behavior, especially old behaviors, are difficult to change .... so be very suspicious and watchful of YOUR own old behaviors that may try and sneak back in.

Be on guard for sacrifice... yours or his.

I will, thanks for the warning. I am starting to understand a little why when he was involved in an EA with OW #1 what WH meant when he told her he was tired of putting "everyone else" first. At the time it made me LOL, but now understanding him a little better I can see that he was sacrificing his needs for us. Just not the way I wanted. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

POJA requires this question be asked

"How do you feel about what I would like to do?"

Decisions are to be made considering each other's feelings.

POJA forces you to be considerate especially when you don't feel like it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

OK .... you've asked THE question "How would you feel about ...."

and this gets negotiation started ... and you realize the goal is enthusiastic agreement ... how do you arrive at that goal?

I can tell that it means so much to my H just to be LOVING enough to ASK THAT QUESTION...

By agreeing to something that you both are happy with? No sacrifice? Am I close?

dear gods . . . go ahead, go to www.amazon.com and buy yourself a used copy of this book . . . I learned today that I am a Buyer married to a Freeloader who is also an EFP. Parts of that book sound like Harley has been living in my house.

Five years ago when I finally had enough of the Freeloading, I devolved into a Renter. WH was panicked enough into becoming a Renter. We never fought before and now that is all we do, exactly as described.

Everybody, please get this book. You will be amazed. I'm surprised it has not been discussed more here.
Mulan

I wrote a long post about the next POJA step ... then the site went down ... now I am too tired .... sorry

will do this later

Get some rest, Pep.
Mulan, what is an EFP? Are you freeloader/renter at this point in your M?

"EFP" is what the book describes as an "Electric Fence Personality" - that is, people who have a very limited tolerance for certain things, oftentimes just rules in general. Anything that makes them hit their own personal Electric Fence will send them into a angry tirade if not an outright rage.

EFPs are often people who learned to lie as kids to keep themselves out of trouble. They keep this habit into adulthood and become PANICKED and FURIOUS when caught, just as if they'd hit an electric fence.

This is my WH to a T-T-T. Exactly. He is normally the greatest and sunniest guy in the world, until he is cold busted on something that does not jive with the honorable and noble image he has of himself. Then he will fly into a rage. He did this to our DS17 once when DS asked ol' Dad if Dad had ever used drugs as a kid.

INSTANTLY FURIOUS. SNARLING ANGRY. You woulda thought he'd stumbled into an electric fence and was reacting to the shock. Poor DS17 had *never* seen his father act that way before.

So, guess how WH reacts when his BW confronts him about all the mountains of lies he's got stacked up about his "social events at work?" Panicked, furious, raging, snarling, and generally acting like a mad bull who just hit an electric fence that he didn't think was there.

I swear, the book is amazing. It is exactly what I've been dealing with for all these years.

FF, I was always a Buyer until I finally had enough of the Freeloading EFP and devolved into a Renter. WH was shocked enough to upgrade from a Freeloader into a Renter.

Freeloaders and Buyers hardly ever fight with their partners, no matter what their partners are. We never did.

However, Renter-Renter relationships often turn argumentative, abusive and violent. Once we both became Renters, horrible fights broke out. The book explains it perfectly.

It also has detailed instructions on how to use POJA and emphasizes that POJA makes absolutely no sense to Freeloaders. My WH is loudly and forcefully and 100% opposed to POJA and will not even CONSIDER it, while I think it sounds like a wonderful idea. That's because POJA is a Buyer's tool. Renters will only use it sporadically and Freeloaders despise it.

Everybody get this book so we can talk about it even more! It is out of print but your library may have a copy and there are many used copies available on amazon.com
Mulan

As recently as Sunday, my H referred to my feelings as "whims". Nice, huh? I'm sorry to hear the book is out of print.

Cherished

Buyers, Renters & Freeloaders...<---- In stock, available now.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

***Buyers, Renters & Freeloaders***

Thanks, Susan. I shoulda thought to look on the site. Though if the cost of a new copy is prohibitive for anyone, a used copy through http://www.amazon.com or even borrowing one from the library might be an alternative.

I shall now go through all the posts on this site and identify the members & their spouses as Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The book just made an amazing amount of sense to me -- kind of like when you wake up and find out that your disease has a name, you are not the only one suffering from it, and somebody else actually understands.

Grapegirl, Lunamare, and Losttranslation (among others) - I think we are all Buyers married to full-blown Freeloaders. We need to talk!
Mulan

bwhaaaaaaaaaaaaa <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ~~~> don't forget to identify if they are in Taker or Giver mode too! LOL

But know what? Doing this exercise has helped me a great deal .... reading the various posts I "see" things a bit clearer and find I "accept" people's positions with lessened sense of doom ... I see fluidity where I used to see cement.

How does FLUIDITY look? I can envision cement but not FLUIDIDITY... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As in "BODY FLUIDS"?...YUK!!

Sorry, I couldn't resist...

This is coming from the person you've help to create since
last April Fool's Day.....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Guidelines for POJA

Guideline 1

Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.

...Ground Rule 1 Try to be pleasant and cheerful throughout negotiations.

...Ground Rule 2 Put safety first. Don't make demands, show disrespect, or become angry when you negotiate, even if your partner makes demands, shows disrespect, or becomes angry with you.

...Ground Rule 3 If you reach an impasse and don't seem to be getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting to make demands, show disrespect, or become angry, stop negotiating and come back to the issue later.

~~~> In other words, do not succumb to the temptations of your Taker <~~~

Guideline 2

Identify the problem from both perspectives.

Very important point Harley makes ~~~> Most couples try to resolve a conflict without doing their homework. They don't fully understand the conflict itself, nor do they understand each other's perspectives. In many cases, they are not even sure what they really want or what they are enthusiastically willing to give.

Harley says

Respect is the key in this phase of negotiation.

It is extremely important to avoid trying to straighten each other out.

~~~> OK .... anyone guilty of this raise your hand <~~~ *my hand is up* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Guideline 3

Brainstorm with abandon

This is the creative part.

Look for mutually agreeable areas that will create compatability.


The goal is to please both of you.

Harley says

The secret to understanding your partner is to think like your partner's Taker thinks.

It's easy to appeal to your partner's Giver ~~~> if she really loves me, she'll let me do this. BUT, lasting peace must be forged with your partner's Taker, so your solutions must appeal to your partner's most selfish instincts. At the same time they must also appeal to your most selfish instincts.

(Mimi, does this answer your earlier question?)

VERY IMPORTANT POINT HERE***

Resist one type of solution that your Giver and Taker may suggest --- [color:"blue"]the I'll let you do what you want this time if you let me do what I want next time solution[/color] <~~~ That's the RENTER'S SOLUTION that encourages you to alternate sacrificing for each other.

and Guideline 4

Choose the solution that meets the conditions of the Policy Of Joint Agreement --Mutual and enthusiastic agreement

~~~> regarding addiction <~~~

"But what can you do if you have agreed to follow the POJA, tried to negotiate for a mutually enthusiastic solution, and yet you or your partner keep behaving in a way that is objectionable to the other? This kind of thoughtless behavior may turn out to be an addiction "

"If one of you struggles with an addiction, you will find that the POJA simply cannot be followed until you have overcome the addiction."

"So if you have tried to follow my advice but can't seem to negotiate with each other regardless of how hard you try, addiction may be the culprit."

Ok, let me give you an example of what we are trying to negotiate right now. My H works Saturdays for a friend. He tends to put the demands and needs of this particular friend above all else including his family. Ok, maybe that is a DJ but it is also the pattern. Anyway, once a month of so the friend and H go to a swapmeet. It is on Sunday so that makes it two days that this friend gets my H and none for the family. H does not enjoy this event anymore but does not want to hurt the friend. This BTW is the same friend that has been enabling the A for the past few months. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, we are trying to negotiate so that friend only gets Saturdays. Problem is my giver has given too much on this issue and now my taker is screaming "no fair". Any suggestions on how to peacefully negotiate this?

like this [color:"red"]~~~~~~~~~~~[/color]

Show your H the POJA guidelines ... the ones on the site are best ... download them ... and first discuss POJA and it's value and see if he will buy into POJA itself !!!

Will do. Thanks.

Mulan - I see myself as having been a buyer in the giving mode before D-day. I have evolved into a freeloader, and my taker is on the loose.

WH was a freeloader, but has changed into a renter with OW. Right now he is a giver, with his taker tightly under control.

Believer, has this discussion been useful to you?

Just want to know ... if it has ... in what way?

Mulan,

quote:----------------------------------------------------
Grapegirl, Lunamare, and Losttranslation (among others) - I think we are all Buyers married to full-blown Freeloaders. We need to talk!
----------------------------------------------------------

I don't question that I am a Buyer based on the 'full committment' part (or else, at this point, I wouldn't even be trying PLAN B!)

However, based on the info. provided here (don't have the book) I definitely did not handle right the balancing of my Giver and Taker and 'sacrificing'. So, I do wonder now if I was a true or a good Buyer in my M. On the other hand, I certainly don't think I was a Renter or Freeloader. My intention, in spite of any problems/difficulties we had in M, was to stick together and see us through the problems.

Apparently, being in PLAN B I have now supposedly become a Renter, for sure!

Did I want things to work out so badly, that I 'sacrificed' too much, like self-esteem/respect?

At this point, I don't know what H was, but by becoming a WS , H definitely became a Freeloader, especially when I heard his logic (which is now easier to explain with these terms) in evaluating in which relationship it would be worthwhile for him to put efforts in: on OW (NEW, PASSIONATE) or work on M (OLD, requiring to give up OW, and make MAJOR efforts into recovery of M: rebuilding trust, forgiveness, etc). It was like, evaluating the purchase of any old household item, or, choosing what requires the least effort.

I could not believe WH's logic - where had the protecting and caring about your family attitude gone? This, I admit now, through me in a tailspin and as some of you recall, unfortunately, totally paralyzed me, and made me less effective, to say the least.

Now, although I may be tempted sometimes by the 'crumbs' offered by WH, I am definitely finding it easier 'to think' in PLAN B, and refuse all offers. It's H back or nothing! Obviously, WH doesn't like this at all, but I won't have anything to do with WH - he is too hurtful (so, it's easy). This I guess is my Taker talking - trying to 'protect' me.

I guess PLAN B, with BS out of the picture, is giving the WH/Freeloader a chance to 'get what he wished for' hoping that the combination of being a Freeloader and forcing 'reality' on the fantasy of A, OW will not meet expectations? Boy, it sounds like a really long shot to me!

Anyway, I think my posting is getting to be too long, so I will stop here.

FF....


I thought you said your H was very clear about one issue ~~~> he does NOT want to be married.

Has his position on this issue changed dramatically all of a sudden?

Well funny thing. When he didn't want to be married he was on the fence about OW. Now, it appears the PA is over and only occasional C with OW about OC. So...the result is he is leaning toward being a renter and wanting to be M'd again. MY response is only if we can MUTUALLY work out an agreement ALA MB prinicipals that is mutually satisfactory to both of us. We are supposed to sit down and write out our own individual boundaries, then meet talk and see if the "middle" ground is acceptable to us both. If not, then the D continues. The D is moving slowly which may be a God thing. I spoke to my attorney's secretary and he has not even given her the agreement to type yet.

Pep - I ordered the book. Should be here today. I'm fascinated by this whole subject. In the meantime, I'm enjoying freeloading.

do your homework FF ...

and particularly consider your H's lifelong contact with OW/OC and just what your TAKER selfishly wants ... and do not dismiss your Taker as "bad" ... she's a good Taker ~~~> she loves YOU

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

glad to hear it !

I will. I am not leaping for joy or assuming everything is "different this time" like I have before. This all about what we can both happily live with together or we don't. Yes, it is a very painful dilemna with the lifelong contact stuff. I am taking my time. In the meantime, I am still working on my issues. I have to whether I stayed married or not! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This is my "if only I can explain it to you better you'll see how right I am" mode.

I am so guilty of this. I never really saw it as a respect issue, but I can see that is exactly what it is.

FIM

Lunamare....



I think this pretty much puts you into the Buyer pile. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


This discussion has helped me understand how/why some BS struggle ( for what seems to me a verrrrrry long time ) before deciding to finally go to Plan B. It's the Buyer ... reluctant to become a Renter.

This was an actual out-loud "ah-HA !" moment for me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


You can always build yourself more self-esteem/respect ... it's one of the things you do control ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"] who put all these stars on this thread? [/color]

Taken from the concepts part of MB site .....


Know what strikes me right off the bat looking at this list?

...Radical Honesty pretty much knocks conflict avoiders out !!!

.... now to apply it to POJA .... hmmmmm <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Which brings me to a question ....

emotional honesty ... I don't think a couple can be successful in POJA negotiations without emotional honesty.

How can one POJA with an emotionally dishonest partner?

.... lest we forget ... a conflict avoider is emotionally dishonest ...

REMEMBER THE QUESTION THAT OPENS POJA

[color:"purple"]How would you feel about this ..... [/color]

Do you apply this question to all of your dealings with your S so that it becomes an ingrained habit or do you two need to specifically accept and agree upon the POJA concept first?

Do you think conflict avoidance ie emotional dishonesty sets the stage for other levels of dishonesty in a person? I find it very difficutl to lie now where it used to just flow out of me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I have consciously worked on this flaw since I was outed last year.

From this site regarding emotional honesty

.... so we must be honest about our feelings

... and then POJA

It seems reasonable to me to check in with your spouse's emotional well-being .... even where you two are right now .... does that seem reasonable to you?

Post deleted by mimi1254

[color:"red"] my reply[/color]




I had just posted this comment on Mulan's thread before i came here and read the same kind of thoughts!!

Yes, in fact whether M'd or D'd I think this would be useful as co-parents. Hmm..this could possibly apply with your children as far as checking in with their emotional well-being.

Confession time, or admitting what is obvious to everyone:

"a conflict avoider is emotionally dishonest ..."

This would be me......or, keeping my Taker's needs from being met....or, my comfort zone is being a Giver.

Well, it's about time I do a better 'balancing act' of these two, and go 'outside the box'.

Actually, I now wonder if being in PLAN B changes Buyers to Renters.

If PLAN B is the only effective tool left, a BS in PLAN B may still be a Buyer, doing reluctantly what needs to be done, PLAN B being the last thing BS/Buyer can do to salvage M - as awkward as it may sound - by 'distancing' oneself from WS!

I now understand why I never could do a Plan B--the light has came on. I couldn't ever bring myself to be a renter.

Hindsight--wish I would have as it may have made my WH truly hit bottom.

Maybe this D will make him hit bottom he may not come back even after hitting bottom but I would like for him to become a better person no matter what.

I've just finished reading the book, and I realised that I've been trying to POJA with H for our whole marriage.

What goes wrong is that he has no idea how he feels about anything. I say 'How would you feel if...' (I've used those very words time and time again!), and he says, 'Fine'. He has no way to access what he actually feels about it, even when I'm doing what he agreed to and he's not happy. He doesn't even know he's not happy about it, isn't aware he's acting grumpy, simply finds himself acting out his anger without any understanding of where it came from.

How do you POJA with someone who always says 'Fine'?

TA

TA - it sounds like your H has no concept of the idea of Emotional Honesty. The book does talk about that. This behavior is also a hallmark of Conflict Avoiders.
Mulan

Hey! I tried this morning with "how would you feel about taking DD to your mom's for Thanksgiving?" I actually got a positive response by phrasing it this way.

Would you define someone with a consistantly messy house a renter? In the past year or so my cooking and cleaning have suffered. Much of it is now due to I just don't care to do it. Obviously I feed my family but more often than not it is something very simple or we pick up take out. It seems like I have slipped into a different mindset than I used to have.

***Would you define someone with a consistantly messy house a renter?***

I guess you could, if Domestic Support is one of your partner's Emotional Needs. Renters only do what they have to do to keep the relationship and expect an equal measure of sacrifice in return for their own sacrifices. If you do not feel you are getting equal measure in return for the "sacrifice" of domestic support and so you've stopped doing it, then that is probably the Renter's mindset.

Buyers will POJA getting their needs met and will look for mutually satisfying solutions.

Freeloaders just don't care. If their partners are not getting their ENs met in the relationship, that's the partner's problem and the partner should change their needs. A Freeloader's only committment to a relationship is to "not leave it".
Mulan

I would say your example offers insufficient information to determine ....

one piece of data does not mean much outside the context in which it occurs

quit overthinking this FF ....

yes ma'am..(hanging head)

Giving it more thought it is likely my depression driving the machine again. I have to get off this med and on to something else. I am barely functioning most days. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Depression is not compatable with maintaining a clean house ....

go see your doctor sweetie

quite the "ah-HA!" moment ... isn't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />



oooooohhhhh

I am so resisting clubbing you over the head right now .....

ME ~~~>>> *breathe-in *breathe-out*

..... re-read the POJA part of this discussion ... and pay particular attention to respect .... see if you can spot the disrespectful judgement

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"] I love the Harley concepts! [/color]

AMEN on LOVING THE HARLEY CONCEPTS!!!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep, Mimi..may I share my epiphany that I had yesterday? I am worthy! I am worthy of love and respect. Yes, I finally dug down and found my self worth. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now if my little guy wasn't worrying me I would be celebrating ~me~ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Y'know, the more I read up on other psychological stuff, the more I appreciate what Harley's done. Basically streamlined the most effective cognitive-behavioral techniques and specialized them for use in marriage enrichment.

Which isn't to say he's "dumbed down" the material at all. He's just indexed it and made it accessible and more usable. Sort of like an NIV Bible with Study Notes isn't a "dumbed down" version of the King James.

Some of us are just geeks from birth who HAVE to do the extra credit reading. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

<--------(feeling very Hermione Grainger-ish)

stungalong

this bump is for you ... instead of turning the decision over to your husband PRACTICE POJA ...create an environment where both of you are content and happy

Pep. Please stop! lol. My head hurts from all this thinking. And I am out of breath from all the AH HAs!

I am following FF's journey in spirit and in reality. THanks FF!!! Her personal journey gave me so many DINGs as my own light came on. Watching her was like watching me. Now, I am racing to catch up!.

I have been here off and on for over a year. I would consider myself a Buyer. BUt also a co-dependent ALL Giver until my Taker just goes into overdrive. And DJs and LBs and the you should, WHy don't you mode is on. A year ago, I was far too damaged to see that. NOW I see the light.

And yes the behaviour is the hardest to change. It is auto pilot which works well until you hit turbulence. (Yes, understatement of the year <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)

So, for me NOW is the right time to really get what this thread is about. NO more cement for me. Fluidity.

And POJA? Wow! THat is not just for relationships with others. In my opinion, POJA yourself. Right? Your giver and your Taker must be in some kind of agreement/balance.

Am I getting there??????

Thanks Pep. I just got DD to bed so I have some time to read!

I would consider myself a Buyer. BUt also a co-dependent ALL Giver until my Taker just goes into overdrive. And DJs and LBs and the you should, WHy don't you mode is on.

Hey faa...you took the words right out of my mouth....I think there is only so long that your Giver can be out there facing the Taker day and and day out before your own Taker says that is it...I need my say! And there you go.....

I am working on this as well....hard...

Daisy

WD. The hardest part for me is the realization of my own contribution. OH, I always accepted that I was not perfect. And I NEVER gave up.

But, it was rarely a partnership. WH has a real point when he says that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I honestly thought it was. ME being the one making all the decisions was what I thought I "should" do. BEcasue he is in hte Navy, and away a lot, I handled everything. But, when he was home, I overrode his decsions often. Most of the time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

After all, I was the competent one. ANd he didn't know enough about the day to day stuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I treated him like a child. And that is the way WH has alwasy been treated. ANd I continued that. Not with malice. But it was still wrong.

And it is so HARD to change that behaviour. He doesn't trust me. ANd looking through his eyes, I see why. ANd looking through my eyes his lies make my trust of him zero.

And it is such a WASTE. ANd I want to FIX it. I want to make my own amends. And can't. Not without his agreeemnt. To at least try. So now I sit here in the ruins of my M with a ton of regrets. I am NOT taking responsibility for his adultery. THat is his CA and his Renter mode. But, when I look at out M, he likely started as Freeloader and I was in Buyer. NO conflict. Then he was in Renter Mode and perhaps in Buyer mode. FOr a while. BUt the DJs and the LBs form BOTH Of us put us in a bad place. I think I might have been a renter or a freeloader while he was in Buyer. But I have to think about that for a bit.

God help us. THis is awful. THis is tragic!

Where is the rewind for my life? TUrn it on but give me the knowledge that I have now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

faa....

And it is such a WASTE. ANd I want to FIX it. I want to make my own amends. And can't. Not without his agreeemnt. To at least try. So now I sit here in the ruins of my M with a ton of regrets.

I also feel that if he could just give it another shot....try....I know I can do better....that we could do better......but he does not want me........I am so sad....
The emails he wrote to the friend are heartbreaking.....he thinks of me as his friends or worse just someone he had encountered.....I want to go by his place and tell him what BS he is thinking and etc....but what good will that do???? I am sad that he gave up on us so soon.......I must not have ment that much to him......and that hurts a lot!

{{{{{{{{faa}}}}}}}}}}} hang in there!
Daisy

((((WHite Daisy)))
That is just the point of this thread though, isn't it? You are NOT to blame for what he says or does. It is his CHOICE. AND he is changing history to suit his CHOICES=BEHAVOUR THat is, his behaviouris more difficult to change than his values and morals. So to jsutify his actions he changes the history to justify the EA/PA

WD, have you contacted this woman? What do THEY say about this?

link to part two

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#2872900

bump for frozen

Bump for

*sugarandspice*

bumping up both parts for the ladies and the gents posting on the FWW recovery thread

bump

for Crystal

^bump for newbies^

try looking at this one again

me?

LOL ... not especially

I just got tired of saying "bump"

I brought it up for a newbie on JFO

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Pep

oh good, LOL cuz I bumped it earlier

We're entering an interesting phase of our lives FF ... it's called

"remodeling the house"

talk about POJA opportunities!!!

holey-moley <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> there is serious fun going into debt

we plan on fixing up this dump and selling it for a mil next year ... whacha think?

LOL

Pep

oh, we did that last year in the middle of the A! Funny, we did it very well together. I am sure you and Mr. Pep will have loads of fun.

Ya know, some days I am sooo tempted to sell ours and move out of state. Kind of take the money and run with the added benefit of being faaaaaaarrr away from FOW.

BTW, I printed out some stuff from this thread and am going to get back on track. My depression is finally getting better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My depression is finally getting better.

ahhhhhhhhhh

relief

depression sucks the joy out of the good times and makes the bad times soooooo unbearably confusing

depression makes your problem-solving skills go in the toilet

*flush*

Pep

[color:"red"] Pep, Mimi..may I share my epiphany that I had yesterday? I am worthy! I am worthy of love and respect. Yes, I finally dug down and found my self worth [/color]

always worth a reminder

this could have been written by any BS or WS

Pep

Pep...

I'm not in the best frame of mind lately. Feeling kind of stuck and barely able to sort through my own seemingly circular thoughts. I also have a killer head & chest cold right now, so that's not helping me to think clearly.

Anyway... I read the first 5 1/2 pages of this thread... but I'm just not getting it. I know you're not in the habit of spoon feeding anyone... but if you had a particular message you wanted me to get... just this once, you may have to treat me like a five-year-old and spell it out for me.

Thanks,
--SC

OK

lemme try

ummmmmmmmmm
ummmmmmmmmm

I am feeling a little discombobulated right now ... but ummmmmmmmm

be back in a few...

Pep

Pep, I do love you! You can make me chuckle even when I'm feeling really down.

Try channeling JL.. that's the kind of 1+1=2 explanation I need right now.

this



made me wonder


might you be thinking that sacrifice
or
suffering in silence

is healthy marriage behavior

and Harley says "NO"

all that does is build resentments

and then

whoosh

in comes your Taker to make sure your needs are getting met

and voila'

an affair looks like a reasonable option

so the discussion about "putting up a good front"
to me

smacks of habitual emotional dishonesty

pretending you are "just fine" in an effort to keep the peace dishonestly

not a healthy marriage

and once there is a discussion about how sacrifice is BAD for the relationship

the radical emotional honesty makes sense

does this make sense???

my stomach hurts... ate too much salad for lunch

*groan*

Pep

know what Cookie

wait until your cold is gone... I don't want to contribute to your misery!

Pep

Yes Pep, it makes perfect sense.
If I may...


Yes and No. I knew it wasn't healthy. I just didn't know how to break the cycle. Or wasn't brave enough the break it, maybe. Regardless... the resentment, whoosh, taker, voila, affair sequence is exactly how it happened.


Yes, "habitual emotional dishonesty". Exactly.


Okay. But here's where I get hung-up.

1. I now know that my "habitual emotional dishonesty" way pre-dates my marriage. Started in childhood and never stopped. It's so ingrained, I think I am emotionally dishonest with MYSELF most of the time.

2. It sometimes seems as though some MB principles actually promote "emotional dishonesty"... meeting EN's even when you don't want to... loving as a verb rather than a feeling. And I think that's what MT was saying too... that when you've lived a lifetime of emotional dishonesty to keep the peace, you don't even know WHAT you REALLY feel anymore... and being told to follow a set of BEHAVIORAL steps or guidelines regardless of how you feel about doing these things or about your spouse just reinforces the dishonesty.

Does THAT make any sense?

--SC

and now

it is a choice you can make each time (I try and do this as well ... but it's REALLY hard if you are not physically well ... so just file this for future experimentation !)

you can teach yourself to take your emotional temperature

do an emotional check-up

see if you are actually in sync with what you are telling others verbally or non-verbally

it can be learned

I think you might journal your thoughts and your feelings separately on the same page ... like draw a line down the center and put one on each side

just to see if things are balanced

try this phrase on for size: "Am I balanced today?"

YES? ... carry on!

NO? ... look for what is not a match

Take a look at your Giver/Taker patterns ... and be cognizant of when one is taking charge over the other ... just be mindful for now ... later ... after mindfulness is mastered ... you can manage your emotional honesty as a matter of your integrity!!!!!!!

YES
I said that!!!!!

Love,

Pep

want me to really screw with your head???



lemme ask you this

do you meet your children's needs when you don't feel like doing so?

why?

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

SC - IMHO, the MB principles assume one has made the decision that it is in their best interests to have a good relationship/M. Everything flows from there and then there is no emotional dishonesty. It then says, assuming one has made that decision, these are the things one must do.

The analog I'll use, and MT will laugh at me, is getting in physical shape. Very few people actually like the straining, running, lifting, sweating, etc. involved in an exercise program. Also, you seldom get immediate feedback as to the results of your efforts. It takes weeks, months, years. What sustains, motivates, and uplifts one during an excercise routine is a vision of what the future will be like. People do it because they believe that they will end up as healthier, happier people. Would you say someone is emotionally dishonest if they told you they like working out, even if what they really meant is I like what having a regular exercise program does for me.

I think a similar analogy is applicable to many things in life. Going to school, raising children, starting a company, etc.

That is not to say that all the work involved in these things must be painful. Some of the activities are more pleasureable than others, some get easier the more you do them, etc.

Pep - Still reading through this thread, but I'll have some other comments.

I like the exercise analogy

KEWL

Pep

Pep,
Hey thanks. Went to the doctor today and got some heavy-duty drugs, so I should be on the rebound soon and able to re-read and digest a bit better.

Rprynne,
I agree. Good analogy. It's sort of your specialty, isn't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So let me further it in relation to your other thread.

First, someone must want to get in shape. They must be convinced that it really is in their best interest and will make their life better. And most of all, they must believe that they can actually attain the desired results. I get the feeling MT doubts whether the desired results can be attained. (??)

Next, there are many ways to get in shape right? Running, aerobics, free weights, competative sports, swimming, yoga... and the list goes on and on. People stick with programs they find most enjoyable. I like aerobics and weight training. I HATE to run. If someone told me the only way to get in shape was running... I'd say, "Fine. Turn on the TV and pass me the ice cream!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Maybe MT's thing about "affection" is kind of like that. Not that she "hates" affection. But if it's akward or difficult for her to do... and she's told she must anyway... maybe it's making it harder to stick with the program.

Just a thought (or two).

--SC

SC - Yes, very much agree with what you are saying.

On point 1, this is why I said MB assumes you have made a decision that it is in your best interests to work on the M. All of the other principles sort of fall into place after that.

One of the things that sort of frustrates me on this board at times is people who have not made (or at least thought about) that decision. I know emotions are raw and feelings are hurt, but as many posters say, calm down, breathe, be patient, and think. Take and make the decisions one at a time, and act accordingly. I get frustrated when I hear (in a non-violent or dangerous M), "D-Day was 2 weeks ago, I'm in plan A, here's my sitch, should I just throw in the towel" NO, MB assumes you've made that decision. If you haven't, plan A does not apply and your not in it, plan B does not apply, POJA does not apply, etc. No one on this board can make that decision for you.

As to whether they believe they can attain the desired results, I think yes and no. This one is a little more fluid. I think for a least a period of time, compliance is the only thing that matters. To continue the exercise analogy, getting started at the begining is just a matter doing it. You may not believe you will achieve your desired goal. You may start small with easy workouts. But at some point, to sustain the effort and to amplify the effort, yes, you must believe, must be able to see your vision of the future getting closer. This is why I caution when people say, "I'll never", or "S will never". These thoughts cloud the vision of the future, make it murky and fading. Mind you, it is still there, but When you can't see it, the effort wanes. This is how it can become a self fulfilling prophecy.

On point 2, 100% agree. IMHO, this is why we use phrases and words like "top EN's", "MB Principles", "Policy". They are not designed to infer laws and absolutes. They infer higher order behaviors, that encompass a wide range of activities. There is a pick list, so to speak, of ways one can care for another. Its a matter of experimenting with what works best for both partners, providing an honest feedback loop, and continually improving. Its a journey.

As for your assessment for MT, agree partially, we definately need to revisit the EN's. I plan to do that this weekend and see what we can come up with. As for the whether MT believes the desired results can be attained. I honestly think their are a 3 challenges, in no particular order.

I think she can see a vision of the future, I think she believes that the MB principles are a way to get there, but I think at times she doubts whether she is capable of doing the work. This is a great source of tension, fear and guilt. If I may be blunt, she may be worried that she will give it her best effort, all she can do. After 2 years or something, I will wake up one day and say, you know, it just was not good enough, and accuse her of wasting my time for two years and saying MT, you didn't even try. This has many levels of complications. What if she did try her best and it doesn't work for either of us.? What if she knows she didn't really try her best. What if she did try and it clicks for her, but I say its not enough and leave her. What if it works for both of us, how much more of a senseless tragedy does the A become?

Even if we work things out, I think she is worried that this event will hang over us forever. That we will never heal. That a marriage with this kind of baggage just can't be happy.

Finally, what if we manage to get through the crisis, will I go back to the way I always was?

I can't blame her for thinking this way. Nothing in my past says I wouldn't do this. Only my promise now, that I won't.

This may sound like doom and gloom, but it is actually light years away from where we were. Our marriage was two people living apart, only coming together when their takers wanted something. I'm five times the man I was a year ago, and MT is five times the woman she was a year ago. MT had decided it was over, now we're working on things. Our time together was functional, now it is fun. At times, our conversations are harder, but they have value now whereas before they were superficial. Is it perfect? Not yet, but the vision is becoming clearer.

Sorry for the ramble, and as always other opinions welcome.

Pep - did you ever expand on this? I do not know if I agree/get it. I would think many M's have renter/renter approach. Does Harley say that once an A happens in this M, that recovery is not possible?

This is the entire quote of my previous post...

If the spouse NEVER was committed to the marriage on the level a Buyer commits...

the key word is

usually

What I think Harley says ...

this is MY opinion coz I don't have the book in front of me...

is that the Freeloader adulterous spouse who NEVER committed fully to a marriage dedicated to POJA and making sure BOTH spouses were happy ... USUALLY is not going to become a Buyer after infidelity ... but may become a Renter again

I think this is based on his experience...

Pep

"recovery" is not the same thing as Buyer/Buyer relationships

so there can be recovery , sure

a prime example is BrambleRose

she and her alcoholic husband are recovered
their's is a Renter/Renter recovery

BrambleRose lowered her expectations

If the marriage is Buyer/Buyer ~~~> there is a POJA agreement

and one cannot POJA with a spouse who is an addict to (whatever)

Pep

rprynne,

I really like the way you think.... because it always gets me thinking.

A couple of quick comments:


I do this kind of "what if" stuff too. It's so self-defeating. I'm trying to stop. And for the most part I'm succeeding.

I want to comment a little more though on that last one --"What if it works for both of us, how much more of a senseless tragedy does the A become?" -- because that one, IMO, packs the most punch and is a very real fear -- as well as an impediment to recovery -- for a lot of FWS's.

I may have even more reason than the average FWS to fear it... because I got a small dose of it during the 3 weeks between the time I told my H that I didn't think I loved him anymore, wasn't happy in the marriage, and wasn't sure I wanted to stay married.... and the time I told him about my affair.

During that time... he executed a perfect plan-A (even though he'd never heard of such a thing). He took full responsibility for the things he had done that had damaged our relationship... Suggested MC and pushed for the earliest possible appointment... started meeting my EN's... the whole nine yards. So I know for a fact that that's all it would have taken to snap him out of the funk he was in.
And if we ever attain that "recovered" status (however you measure that)... I will probably always look back on that time and think, "Why-oh-why didn't I just tell him how unhappy I was BEFORE I went off and cheated on him."

HOWEVER, I still think the "what if" game is useless and self-defeating... whether you play it with regard to the future or the past. Because, even if I had told him how unhappy I was, and he had done everything exactly as he did during those three weeks... it's very, very likely that I would NOT have done the personal inventory it is now glaringly obvious I need to do in order to have a truly intimate relationship with my H.

The reason I say that is because... the things he did to damage our relationship are easier to identify: the excessive porn use, open resentment of family life and responsibilies, failure to even "see" me for so long (for example, when I lost 15 pounds and he didn't even notice), etc. Whereas, my major contribution to the sorry state of our marriage -- never making my H my #1 priority/fear of intimacy is a little harder to identify at first blush. So my guess is, he might have made his changes, but I would have gone back to the same-ol same-ol and never realized I was doing anything damaging to the marriage.

Don't know if/how that applies to your situation. But it seems to me that MT has done the same sort of thing (putting career before marriage) and may have some of the same barriers to intimacy that I have. (Hi, MT, if you're reading. Don't mean to talk about you like your "not in the room")



No, rprynne. She has more than just your promise. To paraphrase Maya Angelou "You did then what you knew then. Now you know better, you will do better."

Pep... that quote rprynne pulled out also jumped out at me. It's pretty discouraging. More thoughts on that, too... but I REALLY have to get off the computer now.

--SC

in my most 'motherly' voice



don't be an idjut Cookie dear <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> ....

write this down and tape it to your bathroom mirror and also in your car and put this sentence as a banner on your cell phone

[color:"red"] Cookie's husband adores her !!!! [/color]

when you feel badly

read it until it makes sense to you

what you did was not typical Cookie ... recovery will restore your marriage AND offer you an opportunity to create yourself into an awesome self-loving powerful female who knows how to receive love as well as give love....

THAT, I think, is what is going on with you ... your 'receiver' needs tuning

just my little old opinion, however

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I want to get some insight on H and myself. Think will order this book, just found title.

SC - That's a nice quote. I will have to remember that one.

rprynne, I am glad you found this thread, I was getting ready to post a link to you. Do you have this book?

Pep... you sure know how to get to a girl and leave her speechless. Thanks for the kind words. I will take them to heart.
--SC

"You did then what you knew then. Now you know better, you will do better."

hello newbies

BUMP ^ for NOW

Now for something really cool.....

Giver/Taker ... or as Harley says: "We all have split personalities"

The Giver's Rule ... do whatever you can to make others happy and avoid anything that makes others unhappy even it it makes you unhappy.

Everyone has a giver. EVERYONE. Freeloaders, Renters, Buyers .... criminals ... Grandma .... your MIL .... your cheating spouse.... your faithful spouse. Our Giver wants us to make a positive difference in the lives of others and it grows out of our instinct to provide care. "give until it hurts"

The Taker's Rule ... do whatever you can to make yourself happy and avoid anything that makes you unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy.

Everyone has a Taker. EVERYONE. Freeloaders, Renters, Buyers ... criminals ... Grandma ... your MIL ... your cheating spouse ... your faithful spouse ... Our Taker wants us to get the most out of life, and it grows out of our basic instinct for self-preservation. "get what you need in life"

Harley says:

"It is tempting to consider the Giver as our caring nature and the Taker as our thoughtless nature.

But that's NOT what they are.

Actually, they are BOTH caring.

Your Giver cares for others

and

Your Taker cares for you"

!!!!!!!!!!!! KEWL

Wait .... there's MORE !!!!!!!

Harley goes on to say:

" Both Giver and Taker also have their thoughtless sides.

Your Giver does NOT CARE how YOU feel.

and

Your Taker does NOT CARE how others feel. "

!!!!!! REALLY KEWL and there's more !!!!

Harley says:

" In fact your Giver is willing to see YOU suffer even to the point of deep depression as long as you continue to care about others.

Your Taker is willing to see others suffer if it means you are happy or are prevented from suffering. "

So, we ALL have a Giver and a Taker

and they are both good ... because

they both care (Giver cares for others, Taker cares for you)

AND

they are both bad ... because

they are both thoughtless (Giver cares nothing about your feelings, Taker cares nothing about the feelings for others)

~~ Here's the importnt point Harley makes~~

"Because each of them ignores someone's feelings, they are both shortsighted. They fail to understand that you and others should be cared for and protected simultaneously, so that no one suffers"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

regarding selfishness and selflesness in a marriage ... I think this is a pretty decent outline >>> the Giver + Taker are there for a reason

Providing care = survival of the species
Self-preservation = survival of the self
Pretty instinctive indeed..

Another part of our "beast" (remember I love all things great, small and furry <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />) that we need to elevate to the level of love ?

Yes, I remember reading about the renters and the buyers...at the time, we had some renters who had just moved out. Seems whenever they have problems, that is their answer, and it is frustrating! So I can definitely relate to that anaolgy!
I've copied a bunch of this thread into a Word file so I can take my time and read them, and chew on the concepts. I think I really need to do that now, so old resentments (or new ones!) don't crop up again. It's an issue I had not yet fully resolved for myself.

Thanks PEP!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

t/j Hi NOW!!!

NOW

do you recognize that you and I were not disagreeing on most of the main points?

we got a little lost when each of us post thoughts largely inside our own head <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> ... but basically, we are closer to agreement on many points ... not identical, but close

it gets corn-fuzzing when we cross-post

Pep

Yeah, Pep...I suspected we were in agreement. And I've seen so-called "arguments" before where I thought both sides were saying the same thing, just in a different way! RH and I get into those kinds of arguments all the time! LOL!

I still wonder, though, why you think Kiwi's statement isn't "valid" NOW, based upon what she did a month ago? Are you just kind of more leery now, or because she should have known better this time, and didn't?
I'm just curious....I don't want to make a big deal of it.

NOW

I prolly ought to just shaddup 'bout that ... let's just say

I have learned THE HARD WAY

actions talk
words don't

(That's a 2-Long-ism)

"I'm going to quit smokin'"

ain't the same as

quittin' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hubby just got home ... gonna go make him happy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep

bump

^ for 2muchhrtbrk

BUMP starward

bwhaaaaaaaaaaaaa <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

we are still remodeling !!!!!!!

Lord have mercy

Pep

You mean there are people out there who are NOT remodeling?

we're down to ONE toilet AGAIN

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Pepp - did u bump this just for me? It was what I needed to be reading! So much more interesting than the SWOT analysis I'm supposed to be reading and this BBall game that has become tiresome...24 points up with 8 min. to play - hardly a game!
Thanks for this!
I'm book shopping tomorrow - it's payday - and I'm loading up - research time!

~baaa (aka bossy - can't believe I ever used that sheesh!)

No [censored]?

We had a plastic utility sink and cardboard boxes for countertops in our kitchen for well over a year at our place...

-ol' 2long

BUMP for Nia

I believe this thread is apposite <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> to many of today's discussions

Re: Giver / Taker

My husband is now in the TAKER mode...What can I do to change it back to the GIVER mode ???

Why do you think you ought to change your husband?

Bump. Thanks for pointing me to this thread, Pep. I saw it when it was bumped the other day, but I didn't fully digest it. Took me a while to get through it but there's a lot of edumacation in this thread <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JMHO - but everybody should read this thread <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Lots to chew on!!!

JinGA

I was looking for this one !

Bump

Bump

I need to read this thread again. It is a keeper!

And another Bump for an awsome thread... for those who haven't read this....

Bump

Bump

bump

His cousin, Fred Willard, is no slouch , either. Wonder how much he can bench press.

I love Fred.

Z,

Read this thread.
It may help your "picker-outer" skills.

In the words of "Rusty"(Oh, that Rusty) from "Mother Rules the Roost", "alri-ti-titey".
Pretty good SCTV skit, with Martin Short as Rusty.

Hi again Pep....

bump ^^

The crux of POJA

I love it when great older threads are bumped. I really enjoyed this one. Thank you!

Bump

Great thread�thank you. The Buyer-Renter-Freeloader concept is a great way to analyze and consider relationships, partners, and potential-partners (for those who are unmarried). Not to rain on anyone�s parade here but�

I read many references to astrological signs (and their supposed significance) made by multiple posters in this thread. Perhaps they were just harmless, tongue-in-cheek banter, but for anyone who might be tempted to believe that someone�s sign (their own or their partner�s or an OP�s) is in any way explanatory or meaningful�

Astrology is a form of divination based on superstition (the spurious belief that the natural movements and positions of celestial bodies in relation to the earth affects or �fates� human activities and behaviors). Its claims and predictions CANNOT be replicated in controlled, blinded studies or experiments & its practitioners are not reproducibly accurate beyond that of random chance alone. It is no more credible or valuable to human psychology than alchemy is to chemistry.

Astrology is a pseudo-science, ladies & gentlemen.

Pseudoscience is a methodology, belief, or practice that is claimed to be scientific, or that is made to appear to be scientific, but which does not adhere to an appropriate scientific methodology, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, or otherwise lacks scientific status. Oxford English dictionary

Astrology has no relevance to understanding ourselves or our place in the cosmos. Modern advocates of astrology cannot account for the underlying basis of astrological associations with terrestrial affairs, have no plausible explanation for its claims, and have not contributed anything of cognitive value to any field of the social sciences�

Many of the claims made about signs and personalities are vague and would fit many people under many different signs. Even professional astrologers, most of whom have nothing but disdain for sun sign astrology, can�t pick out a correct horoscope reading at better than a chance rate. Yet, astrology continues to maintain its popularity, despite the fact that there is scarcely a shred of scientific evidence in its favor�

(excerpts) http://www.skepdic.com/astrolgy.html


Beyond a silly diversion, its best to put away the horoscope and stick with actual facts.

Nice lecture!
Interesting that you chose to comment on the small talk nonsense banter FROM 2005 .... and not the actual meat of this thread.

I agree.
Astrology is just for fun.
Now what?

If you re-read my post, I did comment (very favorably) at the outset on the "meat" of this thread. I would argue that the zodiac stuff was what was superfluous and off-point.

I also was careful to exclude "small talk nonsense banter" from what followed.

Finally, bumping this excellent thread (obviously for the benefit of those who hadn't read it before & those who might want a "refresher"), clearly brings old posts--including Dr. Harley's writings--back into the present for anyone who chooses to read it. Whether they were originally made 5 years ago or 5 days ago, is irrelevant...and there were multiple references made by multiple posters to nonsensical astrological associations that have no bearing or predictive value on the real life issues discussed on this site.

I apologize if I offended you.

BTW, I am "fiercly loyal" as well...and I am a scorpio.

I was annoyed, not offended.
But, I'm over it now.

WOW, thanx Pep. The hardest part for me is to realize that to be in a great Plan B, I have to become a RENTER. I know that I have and my WH have had BUYER personalities in the past, it hurts to realize that I HAVE to change what MY values and beliefs are. I have to be OKAY with DIVORCE. My stomach sinks just typing those words and I am still wearing my wedding ring. I get a small panic attack when I think about taking it off. I get MAD at people when they refer to my WH as my "ex." I KNOW that at some point, if WH doesn't come back to the marriage, I WILL have to divorce. I know this is a POSSIBLE outcome. This is a PROBABLE outcome based on a LTA and separation due to Plan B. My HEAD gets this, my heart WON'T let go. Not YET.

Ok, I'm wondering where I fall in all this????

I was comitted to this marriage even though I was very unhappy. I wanted things to be better, but nothing change....I would never have cheated; I promised to love him for life even though I was not doing the best job. What was I? A buyer or a renter. I can see WH as renter because of his contant starting and stopping of everything in his life..IE

First Marriage
Second Marriage
Army (other than honorable discharge)
Starting a church
STarting a business
Law School
Marriage number three...me
golf
hunting
fishing

Everything started and when it lost it's fizzle, he was off to the next venture.

I guess he was a renter from the beginning. I'm confused about myself because I thought sacrifice was part of marriage.

I would take care of kids every weekend so he could play fishing and hunting....sacrifice
I worked while he tried everything to fill his holes....sacrifice
He was the heavy on discipline...and I buried head in sand. sacrifice?

I feel I sacrificed constantly in this marriage which definitely led to resentment...so maybe he will never come back since he was probably a renter from the beginning instead of a buyer.

I agree with poja but I don't see how a marriage never has sacrifice. I've really confused myself too.

No one said a marriage "never" has sacrifice.

But, sacrifice must be recognized as a hindrance to POJA.
The POINT is to minimize sacrifice and to learn to POJA instead of sacrifice.

Very few people are BUYERS right off the bat.
Most of us think/assume that sacrifice is a good thing in a marriage.
Most of us are renters initially.

I don't understand why you are beating yourself up about this.
The whole point is to learn and grow and change, not to drive ourselves crazy with the past mistakes we made before we knew better.

I'm not trying to beat myself up....just understand. The whole post is quite analytical, so I was trying to look at my own situation in the same way. I guess I was trying to decide which place I was in. I'll just keep reading...thanks

Great Thread - Should be added to notable threads

Glad you posted on here, PI, as I would have never seen this thread. It's exactly what I needed in regards to some thoughts/questions I've had recently!

GREAT thread!

Giver/Taker ....

What Dr Harley wants us to understand .....

Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders is by far an amazing book. I recommend everyone to read it especially if you still have a wayward in your life.

Harley is a very smart man!