I realize that I do the same. It makes me wonder how much my giver gives out of love and how much it gives to set up a winning score.

Hmmmm.

I've been following this thread religiously and am glad I feel in a position that I can participate now that I have some life issues out of the way.

I had just asked DH to read this thread specifically for the POJA posts so I am glad to know that's where you are heading!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Good question!

Yup, guilty <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

yeah ... good question ... gotta quit now ... seeyalater

Pep,

I am thinking on that now.... I will get back to you....

Well here is something surprising..I think my WH is attempting to move up to renter from freeloader! Since I have begun to make some changes in our household dynamics he seems to be responding in a positive way. My older DS and DD are now getting higher expectations from Mom and are responding well. No more martydrom here from you know who (me). WH has responded by taking back the care of the dog, doing some minor improvements around the home that I gently requested and admitting that we cannot really properly care for our rental property and perhaps we should sell it to someone who can! Not only that but my approach to this Ms Pep has been from the homeowner perspective. We have discussed the positives of making a list of home improvement projects and then prioritizing them as well as budgeting for them. Hmmm...even if I move on without WH these changes are very good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Behavior, especially old behaviors, are difficult to change .... so be very suspicious and watchful of YOUR own old behaviors that may try and sneak back in.

Be on guard for sacrifice... yours or his.

I will, thanks for the warning. I am starting to understand a little why when he was involved in an EA with OW #1 what WH meant when he told her he was tired of putting "everyone else" first. At the time it made me LOL, but now understanding him a little better I can see that he was sacrificing his needs for us. Just not the way I wanted. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

POJA requires this question be asked

"How do you feel about what I would like to do?"

Decisions are to be made considering each other's feelings.

POJA forces you to be considerate especially when you don't feel like it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

OK .... you've asked THE question "How would you feel about ...."

and this gets negotiation started ... and you realize the goal is enthusiastic agreement ... how do you arrive at that goal?

I can tell that it means so much to my H just to be LOVING enough to ASK THAT QUESTION...

By agreeing to something that you both are happy with? No sacrifice? Am I close?

dear gods . . . go ahead, go to www.amazon.com and buy yourself a used copy of this book . . . I learned today that I am a Buyer married to a Freeloader who is also an EFP. Parts of that book sound like Harley has been living in my house.

Five years ago when I finally had enough of the Freeloading, I devolved into a Renter. WH was panicked enough into becoming a Renter. We never fought before and now that is all we do, exactly as described.

Everybody, please get this book. You will be amazed. I'm surprised it has not been discussed more here.
Mulan

I wrote a long post about the next POJA step ... then the site went down ... now I am too tired .... sorry

will do this later

Get some rest, Pep.
Mulan, what is an EFP? Are you freeloader/renter at this point in your M?

"EFP" is what the book describes as an "Electric Fence Personality" - that is, people who have a very limited tolerance for certain things, oftentimes just rules in general. Anything that makes them hit their own personal Electric Fence will send them into a angry tirade if not an outright rage.

EFPs are often people who learned to lie as kids to keep themselves out of trouble. They keep this habit into adulthood and become PANICKED and FURIOUS when caught, just as if they'd hit an electric fence.

This is my WH to a T-T-T. Exactly. He is normally the greatest and sunniest guy in the world, until he is cold busted on something that does not jive with the honorable and noble image he has of himself. Then he will fly into a rage. He did this to our DS17 once when DS asked ol' Dad if Dad had ever used drugs as a kid.

INSTANTLY FURIOUS. SNARLING ANGRY. You woulda thought he'd stumbled into an electric fence and was reacting to the shock. Poor DS17 had *never* seen his father act that way before.

So, guess how WH reacts when his BW confronts him about all the mountains of lies he's got stacked up about his "social events at work?" Panicked, furious, raging, snarling, and generally acting like a mad bull who just hit an electric fence that he didn't think was there.

I swear, the book is amazing. It is exactly what I've been dealing with for all these years.

FF, I was always a Buyer until I finally had enough of the Freeloading EFP and devolved into a Renter. WH was shocked enough to upgrade from a Freeloader into a Renter.

Freeloaders and Buyers hardly ever fight with their partners, no matter what their partners are. We never did.

However, Renter-Renter relationships often turn argumentative, abusive and violent. Once we both became Renters, horrible fights broke out. The book explains it perfectly.

It also has detailed instructions on how to use POJA and emphasizes that POJA makes absolutely no sense to Freeloaders. My WH is loudly and forcefully and 100% opposed to POJA and will not even CONSIDER it, while I think it sounds like a wonderful idea. That's because POJA is a Buyer's tool. Renters will only use it sporadically and Freeloaders despise it.

Everybody get this book so we can talk about it even more! It is out of print but your library may have a copy and there are many used copies available on amazon.com
Mulan

As recently as Sunday, my H referred to my feelings as "whims". Nice, huh? I'm sorry to hear the book is out of print.

Cherished

Buyers, Renters & Freeloaders...<---- In stock, available now.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

***Buyers, Renters & Freeloaders***

Thanks, Susan. I shoulda thought to look on the site. Though if the cost of a new copy is prohibitive for anyone, a used copy through http://www.amazon.com or even borrowing one from the library might be an alternative.

I shall now go through all the posts on this site and identify the members & their spouses as Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The book just made an amazing amount of sense to me -- kind of like when you wake up and find out that your disease has a name, you are not the only one suffering from it, and somebody else actually understands.

Grapegirl, Lunamare, and Losttranslation (among others) - I think we are all Buyers married to full-blown Freeloaders. We need to talk!
Mulan

bwhaaaaaaaaaaaaa <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ~~~> don't forget to identify if they are in Taker or Giver mode too! LOL

But know what? Doing this exercise has helped me a great deal .... reading the various posts I "see" things a bit clearer and find I "accept" people's positions with lessened sense of doom ... I see fluidity where I used to see cement.