me?

LOL ... not especially

I just got tired of saying "bump"

I brought it up for a newbie on JFO

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Pep

oh good, LOL cuz I bumped it earlier

We're entering an interesting phase of our lives FF ... it's called

"remodeling the house"

talk about POJA opportunities!!!

holey-moley <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> there is serious fun going into debt

we plan on fixing up this dump and selling it for a mil next year ... whacha think?

LOL

Pep

oh, we did that last year in the middle of the A! Funny, we did it very well together. I am sure you and Mr. Pep will have loads of fun.

Ya know, some days I am sooo tempted to sell ours and move out of state. Kind of take the money and run with the added benefit of being faaaaaaarrr away from FOW.

BTW, I printed out some stuff from this thread and am going to get back on track. My depression is finally getting better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My depression is finally getting better.

ahhhhhhhhhh

relief

depression sucks the joy out of the good times and makes the bad times soooooo unbearably confusing

depression makes your problem-solving skills go in the toilet

*flush*

Pep

[color:"red"] Pep, Mimi..may I share my epiphany that I had yesterday? I am worthy! I am worthy of love and respect. Yes, I finally dug down and found my self worth [/color]

always worth a reminder

this could have been written by any BS or WS

Pep

Pep...

I'm not in the best frame of mind lately. Feeling kind of stuck and barely able to sort through my own seemingly circular thoughts. I also have a killer head & chest cold right now, so that's not helping me to think clearly.

Anyway... I read the first 5 1/2 pages of this thread... but I'm just not getting it. I know you're not in the habit of spoon feeding anyone... but if you had a particular message you wanted me to get... just this once, you may have to treat me like a five-year-old and spell it out for me.

Thanks,
--SC

OK

lemme try

ummmmmmmmmm
ummmmmmmmmm

I am feeling a little discombobulated right now ... but ummmmmmmmm

be back in a few...

Pep

Pep, I do love you! You can make me chuckle even when I'm feeling really down.

Try channeling JL.. that's the kind of 1+1=2 explanation I need right now.

this



made me wonder


might you be thinking that sacrifice
or
suffering in silence

is healthy marriage behavior

and Harley says "NO"

all that does is build resentments

and then

whoosh

in comes your Taker to make sure your needs are getting met

and voila'

an affair looks like a reasonable option

so the discussion about "putting up a good front"
to me

smacks of habitual emotional dishonesty

pretending you are "just fine" in an effort to keep the peace dishonestly

not a healthy marriage

and once there is a discussion about how sacrifice is BAD for the relationship

the radical emotional honesty makes sense

does this make sense???

my stomach hurts... ate too much salad for lunch

*groan*

Pep

know what Cookie

wait until your cold is gone... I don't want to contribute to your misery!

Pep

Yes Pep, it makes perfect sense.
If I may...


Yes and No. I knew it wasn't healthy. I just didn't know how to break the cycle. Or wasn't brave enough the break it, maybe. Regardless... the resentment, whoosh, taker, voila, affair sequence is exactly how it happened.


Yes, "habitual emotional dishonesty". Exactly.


Okay. But here's where I get hung-up.

1. I now know that my "habitual emotional dishonesty" way pre-dates my marriage. Started in childhood and never stopped. It's so ingrained, I think I am emotionally dishonest with MYSELF most of the time.

2. It sometimes seems as though some MB principles actually promote "emotional dishonesty"... meeting EN's even when you don't want to... loving as a verb rather than a feeling. And I think that's what MT was saying too... that when you've lived a lifetime of emotional dishonesty to keep the peace, you don't even know WHAT you REALLY feel anymore... and being told to follow a set of BEHAVIORAL steps or guidelines regardless of how you feel about doing these things or about your spouse just reinforces the dishonesty.

Does THAT make any sense?

--SC

and now

it is a choice you can make each time (I try and do this as well ... but it's REALLY hard if you are not physically well ... so just file this for future experimentation !)

you can teach yourself to take your emotional temperature

do an emotional check-up

see if you are actually in sync with what you are telling others verbally or non-verbally

it can be learned

I think you might journal your thoughts and your feelings separately on the same page ... like draw a line down the center and put one on each side

just to see if things are balanced

try this phrase on for size: "Am I balanced today?"

YES? ... carry on!

NO? ... look for what is not a match

Take a look at your Giver/Taker patterns ... and be cognizant of when one is taking charge over the other ... just be mindful for now ... later ... after mindfulness is mastered ... you can manage your emotional honesty as a matter of your integrity!!!!!!!

YES
I said that!!!!!

Love,

Pep

want me to really screw with your head???



lemme ask you this

do you meet your children's needs when you don't feel like doing so?

why?

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

SC - IMHO, the MB principles assume one has made the decision that it is in their best interests to have a good relationship/M. Everything flows from there and then there is no emotional dishonesty. It then says, assuming one has made that decision, these are the things one must do.

The analog I'll use, and MT will laugh at me, is getting in physical shape. Very few people actually like the straining, running, lifting, sweating, etc. involved in an exercise program. Also, you seldom get immediate feedback as to the results of your efforts. It takes weeks, months, years. What sustains, motivates, and uplifts one during an excercise routine is a vision of what the future will be like. People do it because they believe that they will end up as healthier, happier people. Would you say someone is emotionally dishonest if they told you they like working out, even if what they really meant is I like what having a regular exercise program does for me.

I think a similar analogy is applicable to many things in life. Going to school, raising children, starting a company, etc.

That is not to say that all the work involved in these things must be painful. Some of the activities are more pleasureable than others, some get easier the more you do them, etc.

Pep - Still reading through this thread, but I'll have some other comments.

I like the exercise analogy

KEWL

Pep

Pep,
Hey thanks. Went to the doctor today and got some heavy-duty drugs, so I should be on the rebound soon and able to re-read and digest a bit better.

Rprynne,
I agree. Good analogy. It's sort of your specialty, isn't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So let me further it in relation to your other thread.

First, someone must want to get in shape. They must be convinced that it really is in their best interest and will make their life better. And most of all, they must believe that they can actually attain the desired results. I get the feeling MT doubts whether the desired results can be attained. (??)

Next, there are many ways to get in shape right? Running, aerobics, free weights, competative sports, swimming, yoga... and the list goes on and on. People stick with programs they find most enjoyable. I like aerobics and weight training. I HATE to run. If someone told me the only way to get in shape was running... I'd say, "Fine. Turn on the TV and pass me the ice cream!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Maybe MT's thing about "affection" is kind of like that. Not that she "hates" affection. But if it's akward or difficult for her to do... and she's told she must anyway... maybe it's making it harder to stick with the program.

Just a thought (or two).

--SC

SC - Yes, very much agree with what you are saying.

On point 1, this is why I said MB assumes you have made a decision that it is in your best interests to work on the M. All of the other principles sort of fall into place after that.

One of the things that sort of frustrates me on this board at times is people who have not made (or at least thought about) that decision. I know emotions are raw and feelings are hurt, but as many posters say, calm down, breathe, be patient, and think. Take and make the decisions one at a time, and act accordingly. I get frustrated when I hear (in a non-violent or dangerous M), "D-Day was 2 weeks ago, I'm in plan A, here's my sitch, should I just throw in the towel" NO, MB assumes you've made that decision. If you haven't, plan A does not apply and your not in it, plan B does not apply, POJA does not apply, etc. No one on this board can make that decision for you.

As to whether they believe they can attain the desired results, I think yes and no. This one is a little more fluid. I think for a least a period of time, compliance is the only thing that matters. To continue the exercise analogy, getting started at the begining is just a matter doing it. You may not believe you will achieve your desired goal. You may start small with easy workouts. But at some point, to sustain the effort and to amplify the effort, yes, you must believe, must be able to see your vision of the future getting closer. This is why I caution when people say, "I'll never", or "S will never". These thoughts cloud the vision of the future, make it murky and fading. Mind you, it is still there, but When you can't see it, the effort wanes. This is how it can become a self fulfilling prophecy.

On point 2, 100% agree. IMHO, this is why we use phrases and words like "top EN's", "MB Principles", "Policy". They are not designed to infer laws and absolutes. They infer higher order behaviors, that encompass a wide range of activities. There is a pick list, so to speak, of ways one can care for another. Its a matter of experimenting with what works best for both partners, providing an honest feedback loop, and continually improving. Its a journey.

As for your assessment for MT, agree partially, we definately need to revisit the EN's. I plan to do that this weekend and see what we can come up with. As for the whether MT believes the desired results can be attained. I honestly think their are a 3 challenges, in no particular order.

I think she can see a vision of the future, I think she believes that the MB principles are a way to get there, but I think at times she doubts whether she is capable of doing the work. This is a great source of tension, fear and guilt. If I may be blunt, she may be worried that she will give it her best effort, all she can do. After 2 years or something, I will wake up one day and say, you know, it just was not good enough, and accuse her of wasting my time for two years and saying MT, you didn't even try. This has many levels of complications. What if she did try her best and it doesn't work for either of us.? What if she knows she didn't really try her best. What if she did try and it clicks for her, but I say its not enough and leave her. What if it works for both of us, how much more of a senseless tragedy does the A become?

Even if we work things out, I think she is worried that this event will hang over us forever. That we will never heal. That a marriage with this kind of baggage just can't be happy.

Finally, what if we manage to get through the crisis, will I go back to the way I always was?

I can't blame her for thinking this way. Nothing in my past says I wouldn't do this. Only my promise now, that I won't.

This may sound like doom and gloom, but it is actually light years away from where we were. Our marriage was two people living apart, only coming together when their takers wanted something. I'm five times the man I was a year ago, and MT is five times the woman she was a year ago. MT had decided it was over, now we're working on things. Our time together was functional, now it is fun. At times, our conversations are harder, but they have value now whereas before they were superficial. Is it perfect? Not yet, but the vision is becoming clearer.

Sorry for the ramble, and as always other opinions welcome.

Pep - did you ever expand on this? I do not know if I agree/get it. I would think many M's have renter/renter approach. Does Harley say that once an A happens in this M, that recovery is not possible?