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Harley says that the Buyer/Buyer agreement CAN BE restored when the affair has finally ended.
BUT .... you ~knew~ there was gonna be a but didn't you?
this does not usually work if the unfaithful partner was NEVER a Buyer
hmmmmmmmmmmmm This is the entire quote of my previous post... If the spouse NEVER was committed to the marriage on the level a Buyer commits... the key word is usually What I think Harley says ... this is MY opinion coz I don't have the book in front of me... is that the Freeloader adulterous spouse who NEVER committed fully to a marriage dedicated to POJA and making sure BOTH spouses were happy ... USUALLY is not going to become a Buyer after infidelity ... but may become a Renter again I think this is based on his experience... Pep
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I would think many M's have renter/renter approach. Does Harley say that once an A happens in this M, that recovery is not possible? "recovery" is not the same thing as Buyer/Buyer relationships so there can be recovery , sure a prime example is BrambleRose she and her alcoholic husband are recovered their's is a Renter/Renter recovery BrambleRose lowered her expectations If the marriage is Buyer/Buyer ~~~> there is a POJA agreement and one cannot POJA with a spouse who is an addict to (whatever) Pep
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rprynne, I really like the way you think.... because it always gets me thinking. A couple of quick comments: I think she can see a vision of the future, I think she believes that the MB principles are a way to get there, but I think at times she doubts whether she is capable of doing the work. This is a great source of tension, fear and guilt. If I may be blunt, she may be worried that she will give it her best effort, all she can do. After 2 years or something, I will wake up one day and say, you know, it just was not good enough, and accuse her of wasting my time for two years and saying MT, you didn't even try. This has many levels of complications. What if she did try her best and it doesn't work for either of us.? What if she knows she didn't really try her best. What if she did try and it clicks for her, but I say its not enough and leave her. What if it works for both of us, how much more of a senseless tragedy does the A become? I do this kind of "what if" stuff too. It's so self-defeating. I'm trying to stop. And for the most part I'm succeeding. I want to comment a little more though on that last one --"What if it works for both of us, how much more of a senseless tragedy does the A become?" -- because that one, IMO, packs the most punch and is a very real fear -- as well as an impediment to recovery -- for a lot of FWS's. I may have even more reason than the average FWS to fear it... because I got a small dose of it during the 3 weeks between the time I told my H that I didn't think I loved him anymore, wasn't happy in the marriage, and wasn't sure I wanted to stay married.... and the time I told him about my affair. During that time... he executed a perfect plan-A (even though he'd never heard of such a thing). He took full responsibility for the things he had done that had damaged our relationship... Suggested MC and pushed for the earliest possible appointment... started meeting my EN's... the whole nine yards. So I know for a fact that that's all it would have taken to snap him out of the funk he was in. And if we ever attain that "recovered" status (however you measure that)... I will probably always look back on that time and think, "Why-oh-why didn't I just tell him how unhappy I was BEFORE I went off and cheated on him." HOWEVER, I still think the "what if" game is useless and self-defeating... whether you play it with regard to the future or the past. Because, even if I had told him how unhappy I was, and he had done everything exactly as he did during those three weeks... it's very, very likely that I would NOT have done the personal inventory it is now glaringly obvious I need to do in order to have a truly intimate relationship with my H. The reason I say that is because... the things he did to damage our relationship are easier to identify: the excessive porn use, open resentment of family life and responsibilies, failure to even "see" me for so long (for example, when I lost 15 pounds and he didn't even notice), etc. Whereas, my major contribution to the sorry state of our marriage -- never making my H my #1 priority/fear of intimacy is a little harder to identify at first blush. So my guess is, he might have made his changes, but I would have gone back to the same-ol same-ol and never realized I was doing anything damaging to the marriage. Don't know if/how that applies to your situation. But it seems to me that MT has done the same sort of thing (putting career before marriage) and may have some of the same barriers to intimacy that I have. (Hi, MT, if you're reading. Don't mean to talk about you like your "not in the room") Finally, what if we manage to get through the crisis, will I go back to the way I always was?
I can't blame her for thinking this way. Nothing in my past says I wouldn't do this. Only my promise now, that I won't. No, rprynne. She has more than just your promise. To paraphrase Maya Angelou "You did then what you knew then. Now you know better, you will do better." Pep... that quote rprynne pulled out also jumped out at me. It's pretty discouraging. More thoughts on that, too... but I REALLY have to get off the computer now. --SC
"I require more from my spouse than behaving well in order to avoid pain." (guess who)
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in my most 'motherly' voice Pep... that quote rprynne pulled out also jumped out at me. It's pretty discouraging. More thoughts on that, too... but I REALLY have to get off the computer now. don't be an idjut Cookie dear <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> .... write this down and tape it to your bathroom mirror and also in your car and put this sentence as a banner on your cell phone [color:"red"] Cookie's husband adores her !!!! [/color] when you feel badly read it until it makes sense to you what you did was not typical Cookie ... recovery will restore your marriage AND offer you an opportunity to create yourself into an awesome self-loving powerful female who knows how to receive love as well as give love.... THAT, I think, is what is going on with you ... your 'receiver' needs tuning just my little old opinion, however Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
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I want to get some insight on H and myself. Think will order this book, just found title.
Last edited by LLG; 05/05/06 08:33 PM.
LLG=Living, Learning, Growing formerly reallyconcerned
Trying to stop fearing and start living
BS-35
WS-33
kids, yes
1 D-day 8/2003, 2nd D-day 1/2006
Current status:
Working in Plan A.
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SC - That's a nice quote. I will have to remember that one.
Me 43 BH
MT 43 WW
Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats
D-day July, 2005
4.5 False Recoveries
Me - recovered
The M - recovered
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rprynne, I am glad you found this thread, I was getting ready to post a link to you. Do you have this book?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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In my most 'motherly' voice
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pep... that quote rprynne pulled out also jumped out at me. It's pretty discouraging. More thoughts on that, too... but I REALLY have to get off the computer now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
don't be an idjut Cookie dear ....
write this down and tape it to your bathroom mirror and also in your car and put this sentence as a banner on your cell phone
Cookie's husband adores her !!!!
when you feel badly
read it until it makes sense to you
what you did was not typical Cookie ... recovery will restore your marriage AND offer you an opportunity to create yourself into an awesome self-loving powerful female who knows how to receive love as well as give love....
THAT, I think, is what is going on with you ... your 'receiver' needs tuning
just my little old opinion, however
Pep Pep... you sure know how to get to a girl and leave her speechless. Thanks for the kind words. I will take them to heart. --SC
"I require more from my spouse than behaving well in order to avoid pain." (guess who)
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SC - That's a nice quote. I will have to remember that one.
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Now for something really cool.....
Giver/Taker ... or as Harley says: "We all have split personalities"
The Giver's Rule ... do whatever you can to make others happy and avoid anything that makes others unhappy even it it makes you unhappy.
Everyone has a giver. EVERYONE. Freeloaders, Renters, Buyers .... criminals ... Grandma .... your MIL .... your cheating spouse.... your faithful spouse. Our Giver wants us to make a positive difference in the lives of others and it grows out of our instinct to provide care. "give until it hurts"
The Taker's Rule ... do whatever you can to make yourself happy and avoid anything that makes you unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy.
Everyone has a Taker. EVERYONE. Freeloaders, Renters, Buyers ... criminals ... Grandma ... your MIL ... your cheating spouse ... your faithful spouse ... Our Taker wants us to get the most out of life, and it grows out of our basic instinct for self-preservation. "get what you need in life"
Harley says:
"It is tempting to consider the Giver as our caring nature and the Taker as our thoughtless nature.
But that's NOT what they are.
Actually, they are BOTH caring.
Your Giver cares for others
and
Your Taker cares for you"
!!!!!!!!!!!! KEWL
Wait .... there's MORE !!!!!!!
Harley goes on to say:
" Both Giver and Taker also have their thoughtless sides.
Your Giver does NOT CARE how YOU feel.
and
Your Taker does NOT CARE how others feel. "
!!!!!! REALLY KEWL and there's more !!!!
Harley says:
" In fact your Giver is willing to see YOU suffer even to the point of deep depression as long as you continue to care about others.
Your Taker is willing to see others suffer if it means you are happy or are prevented from suffering. "
So, we ALL have a Giver and a Taker
and they are both good ... because
they both care (Giver cares for others, Taker cares for you)
AND
they are both bad ... because
they are both thoughtless (Giver cares nothing about your feelings, Taker cares nothing about the feelings for others)
~~ Here's the importnt point Harley makes~~
"Because each of them ignores someone's feelings, they are both shortsighted. They fail to understand that you and others should be cared for and protected simultaneously, so that no one suffers"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
regarding selfishness and selflesness in a marriage ... I think this is a pretty decent outline >>> the Giver + Taker are there for a reason
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Providing care = survival of the species Self-preservation = survival of the self Pretty instinctive indeed.. Another part of our "beast" (remember I love all things great, small and furry <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />) that we need to elevate to the level of love ?
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Yes, I remember reading about the renters and the buyers...at the time, we had some renters who had just moved out. Seems whenever they have problems, that is their answer, and it is frustrating! So I can definitely relate to that anaolgy! I've copied a bunch of this thread into a Word file so I can take my time and read them, and chew on the concepts. I think I really need to do that now, so old resentments (or new ones!) don't crop up again. It's an issue I had not yet fully resolved for myself. Thanks PEP! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
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Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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NOW do you recognize that you and I were not disagreeing on most of the main points? we got a little lost when each of us post thoughts largely inside our own head <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> ... but basically, we are closer to agreement on many points ... not identical, but close it gets corn-fuzzing when we cross-post Pep
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Yeah, Pep...I suspected we were in agreement. And I've seen so-called "arguments" before where I thought both sides were saying the same thing, just in a different way! RH and I get into those kinds of arguments all the time! LOL!
I still wonder, though, why you think Kiwi's statement isn't "valid" NOW, based upon what she did a month ago? Are you just kind of more leery now, or because she should have known better this time, and didn't?
I'm just curious....I don't want to make a big deal of it.
NOW
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I prolly ought to just shaddup 'bout that ... let's just say I have learned THE HARD WAY actions talk words don't (That's a 2-Long-ism) "I'm going to quit smokin'" ain't the same as quittin' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Hubby just got home ... gonna go make him happy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Pep
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Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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