Well, last night and this morning things have seemed to level off, she's neither happy or sad, just kind of blah. Some talk some one word answers, seems strange. No LBs from either of us. Will see what today brings.

Bump

I posted to your other thread, eagle.

In His arms

Mortarman,

Thank you

ML & Orchid,

Any Ideas on what I should do? The kids and I always giver flowers when she gets off the plane. Anything else?

ML & Orchid,

Isn't there like a nuclear option for blowing away the fog???

Well, checking the cell bill from pre A to current, last night saw numbers I didn't recognize, called it was people she works with. I called her and asked about one of the numbers talked about checking, she says it's funny she has to live by the MB rules, but I don't. I said I was curious and I wasn't the one that broke trust and checking up helps me build trust. She "Whatever makes you feeel good", she was mad as H***. Told me to just ask and she would tell me, and I have to admit she hasn't lied that I can tell since D-Day. She ahs deleted all emails, never gave home email or cell #. That's a good thing. All contact was from work. Shenow see's it as LB for checking and said I'm going to tell the chaplain today in my session and the MC tomorrow in our session. I said OK tell whoever. Shee alaid now who's going behind who's back?

comments???

Which MB rules does she claim you broke? Unconditional trust is not a MB principle. If anything, unconditional trust is discouraged.

I would let her know that she is free to check your cell phone records and emails or anything else she wants. She destroyed your trust in her, and this is part of the process necessary for her to regain your trust. Your building of your trust in her is a good thing; nobody should be upset.

Her idea of you just asking her about things would be fine if you did trust her completely, but you are not to that point yet.

NCN,

Thank you, my feelings exactly. Maybe she will change her mind and after she cools down she'll understand.

Well good morning everyone. I hope Thanksgiving went well for all of you. It was a good day in our house, WW was upbeat and cheerful. After lunch I was laying down on the couch taking a nap and she wanted to take a shower with me, but didn't wake me. She told me about it later, so the next day, I asked if she wanted to take a shower together and she got very angry, I said OK not a problem, she no let's get it done, I said I was uncomfortable with this as she was not happy with it, she said get in here, I did and when we got out she said she was miserable with the whole thing, NO SF mind you just a shower. Later when we discussed it she said she felt that I made her cave in again, I asked how and she said she thought about it all evening and night Thursday and the more she thought about it the more she felt I was making her cave in (read as a demand). I asked how could that be when I said I didn't want to because I was uncomfortable with it. She finally came to the conclusion that she was seeing everything I say as a demand or a control issue and she was not trying to be more positive about things. Still says no SF, no more showers together, but decided to allow me to show her affection and try to return affection in a positive way.

I asked her if it would be acceptable to try to return some affection, try to do some nice things for me (random acts of kindness)and accept what I was trying to do for her instead of discounting everything and saying "I give you an A for effort, but you just can't meet any of my Ens." When I asked why I got "because I don't feel anything for you." I asked "didn't you agree to meet my needs and allow me to meet yours before you came here?" She said yes, but I don't feel anything for you, so I don't want you to meet my needs. I asked her "didn't you agree to meet ENs in our MC session Wednesday, didn't you agree to accept the risk that you might be able to fall in love with me again?" She said yes, but I don't feel anything for you, I said you won't feel anything for me for awhile, you probably never will if you keep shutting me out. When you agree to something don't you think you should try to live up to that agreement? Do you agree that trying sometimes requires you to do things that you might not want or feel like doing? She said yes, that's why she is here, but here heart is not in it she still wants to be with OM. NC is still in effect, but she still thinks he is patiently waiting for her.

The neighbor came over and visited for a couple of hours Friday night all went well. We played football with the kids in the back yard, played Monoply with the kids and neighbors Saturday night. When ever anyone is around she is affectionate, but as soon as we are alone she clams up. She says her defenses are down, but she still doesn't feel anything, and therefore will not accept my affection (#3 on her ENs questionaire). She says I am meeting all of her other ENs, but I can't meet that one because she doesn't feel anything.

She said she was going to talk to the kids this weekend about what she has done and how wrong it is. She kept putting it off and wants to talk to them alone, I told her this morning I wanted to be there so she did not blow smoke and sugar coat the whole thing. She got mad and accused me of trying to control the discussion, I said if you are going to tell them the truth then my presence should not be an issue, shae said OK, but said I made her cave in again. I said if you are going to tell them the truth, not sugar coat things, not blow smoke, then this should not be an issue, and that is not controlling or caving in, it is doing the right thing. I said the kids are afraid to talk to you about this issue because they are afraid you will leave or not come home when you retire. She said she wouldn't do that to them and I said have you told them that? They are very aware of the A and everything that has gone on with the exception of what has gone on between WW and I for the past few years.

I apparently LB'd this morning, I got up to get in the shower, got a cup of coffee, showered, got out and she offered me a cup of coffee, I said I already have one, didn't say thank you right away and was immediately chastised for not accepting her act of affection. I hugged her and kissed her and said thank you, it was unexpected and after the last few days of being told I made her miserable I didn't think about it, I just responded that I already had a cup (my normal routine on work days). She said she understood, but still had an attitude.

This is still very hard to do and she still refuses to do an NC letter. We talked about that and I said it made me feel that she was hedging her bets, she said she wasn't, but she also wasn't ready to do the NC letter, the AF mandated NC should be enough. I said the NC letter would allow her to focus more on the marriage because she will have ended the A on her terms and would not have the OM rolling around in the back of her mind. I also asked her if she thought it was fair to anyone involved to keep them hanging. She said no, but still no NC letter.

She is doing most of the MB stuff for Plan A, but still continues to block me out when it comes to the affection EN, she has recognized that I am doing all the right things, but says that until she starts to feel something she can't accept what I am doing for her. I asked her to try to accept things, and try to respond in kind, she said she would, but doesn't see how that can help. I said it couldn't hurt and maybe if she felt good about doing a few nice things for me, maybe in a few months she would start to feel a little something. So she started trying last night, when we cuddled she cuddled back and returned my hugs, when I held her she held me back, she didn't say she was miserable this morning, but she may tell me that this afternoon. I kissed her before I left this morning, asked for a big kiss, we did she kissed me back and she smiled a little, walked me out to the truck and waved goodbye. Hopefully this is a good sign.

She says she trusts me and has faith in me, but doesn't have faith in saving our M, I told her she was worth all the hard work and the fight to save our M and she got tears in her eyes. I asked her if she thought she was worth it and she said I guess.

I'm hoping this is still fog, boy does she hate that term, but can't come up with a better one.

Sorry for the long post, but I had to get this down and out of my system.

Thank you all for all of your support and for listening.

Good job, Eagle! She is right where she is supposed to be. I think as her defenses drop, she will discover, all on her own, that the OM is a player who has only used her. Once she discovers this, she will be devastated and will come to you. The only thing I would suggest is that you quit asking her to meet your needs. Let that come from SH instead of you.

It is extremely hard for a detached person to meet her spouse's needs and that expectation is going to push her away. Let her come to you and avoid talking about it. Do your best to meet her needs in a subtle, non pushy way. She is viewing this as a demand, which is not attractive.

Your shows of affection are very HARD on her right now because she CANNOT return the favor. Too much affection is irritating to her because it obligates to something she cannot deliver. It has the effect of a lovebuster. So, be very careful with this and be as subtle and non pushy as you can.

And please avoid using the term "fog". A person in a fog doesn't realize it so using the term only makes her defensive. It's a fine line to walk, but you want to do everything you can to avoid making her defensive without letting her cakeeat. For example, it made her defensive when you asserted your presence into the "talk" with the kids. But that was NECCESSARY in order to protect the kids and to not allow her to inject her fantasy into the children. On the other hand, telling her she is in a fog serves no such good purpose and only works against you.

If she is defensive, then she is too busy protecting herself from you for self analysis. If she is in defense mode, she will be defending her activities instead of taking a necessary hard look at herself. So do what you can to avoid making her defensive, it works against you.

I think you handled her complaints about control, "caving in", extremely well. Especially about talking to the kids. You are doing very well, Eagle

Melody,

Thak you for the boost of confidence.

She saw the term fog in SAA and on this site when I aske her to read SC's posts. She read them voluntarily,saw some similarities, but says that she never lied to OM only to me and the kids.

I will quit asking her to meet my ENs, although she is meeting most of them on her own. She doesn't mind hand holding, a kiss every now and then, sitting next to me on the couch, an occasional hug, she just won't do the affectionate intimacy stuff and SF. I'm trying to not push either of these, but I have let her know that they are on my top 5 ENs, she has my EN questionaire and is aware of them.

I will try very hard to not make her defensive, but sometimes saying good morning seems to make her defensive. Sometimes I feel like anything I say makes her defenses go up, other times she is easy to be around. I find it very confusing. She recognizes she is sending mixed signals and says that I am also and wants to clarify the things she says. She also syas I am listening better (#1 EN) and really appreciates that.

Thank you again.

I agree absolutely. She is looking for opportunities to BE defensive and is manufacturing greivances. That way she can be the victim and you can be the bad guy, which is a great guilt deflector. But I think you are doing good discerning the difference. She was defensive about your insistance that you sit in on the conversation with the kids, but that was necessary. I know it is confusing, but just keep trying to discern the important things from the unimportant.

ML,

I will.

Thank you I reall appreciate your help and advice.

Last night was good, we went to WalMart to pick up some things for the kids. She saw Christmas cards and wanted to buy them so we can send them out with our new address here in Al. She is going to work on them today or tomorrow.

She had already talked to the kids before I got home from work, but with the kids present to confirm what she said she told me everything, the kids had nothing to add to what she said. I said I had wanted to be there, but since she wanted to tell them by herself and she told me everything that was said I said thank you for your honesty, this does help rebuild trust, but I would have liked to have been here for it and think I have a right to be there whenever she discusses something like this with the kids. She didn't agree but accepted that.

She brought me coffee this morrning, I thanked her for it, hugged her and kissed her, she seemed to appreciate it, but also seemed to want to turn her head a little away from the kiss (just a peck on the lips).

She also says she feels like she is in an Uncle's house not her own house, feels uncomfortable. She has never lived in this house and only visited for short periods, we just bought it at the end of March of this year, it's brand new, just built. I asked if we needed to buy a new house in Feb after she retires, she said no. I asked her to try to decorate the house with me, you know put her mark on it and to try to accept responsibility and ownership of it as it is home for our children and will be her home in Feb, she said she would, but didn't see how that would change anything, I asked her to just try. She said she would, but doesn't see how it will help. I said it is like going through the motions of being a wife and mother. You haven't done that for an extended period of over 3.5 years and might need a little refresher, you might not want to do it, but if you try it you might like it.

She still feels uncomfortable sleeping in the same bed, hugs and kisses, but says she is trying to feel something, but doesn't. I said you won't feel anything for awhile maybe even a year, but please let me meet your ENs. She said OK, and she will continue to try to meet mine except SF. I said OK, she has also said she will try to be more affectionate and more positive about things. She also said she trusts me and has faith in me, but doesn't see how I can be so positive about fixing the M and that some things can't be fixed. I asked her to just have faith, even a little bit, and work with me and we can make this happen. She accepted that, but is still a little skeptical.

Yesterday she spent the day cleaning up the kids rooms, they look great now. When I went home for lunch she had candles burning all over the house, it was very nice. We ordered pizza, the kids were happy and we played cards, 21 and Texas Holdem. We had fun.

We have MC this evening, hoping it will go well. Last week she said she wanted M to be 50/50 and was happy that I was listening and trying to understand her. We'll see how this evening goes. I think things are a little smoother, but can't seem to get her to understand that feelings will come last. The MC last week asked her if she would accept risk about M meaning M might work, she said yes, asked me to accept risk that M may not work, I said yes. Then told us to work on ENs, I think this will be an interesting part of MC this evening. She has been trying and has told me she has let her defenses down, but still holds out for feelings. I am going to ask MC about feelings and hope he will address the issue.

ML, Orchid and any other FWWs do you have any other ideas???

Thank all of you for all of your great advice and help, you help me maintain my sanity.

Just got back from lunch. When I kissed her goodbye she kissed me back. 3 pecks on the lips and as I was about toturn she came in and gave me a kiss. I commented on it and she said it's not the first time, just the first time I really noticed. She thought that was funny, but seemed really happy I noticed.

Wow what does this mean?

<<BUMP>>

Well, the last couple of days have been real good. We went to MC Tues night, MC wanted to level the playing field and asked about her comments about not wanting to be here, she explained about her feelings, he asked about OM she explained all that (very painful for me & her). Mc stated that it was a fantasy as she had only known OM for 6-7 weeks and that OM was untested, but here I was after knowing each other almost 20 yrs and married over 17.5 yrs tested and found to meet even the hardest of tests and times. This made her mad (fantasy and being told that OM was a marriage breaker as well as I was the good guy). We discussed SF and other ENs, she didn't like that either, but he asked if I would let her determine when she was ready, I said yes so the ball is in her court. While discussing SF she stated that if she "Caved" and gave in to SF with me that would be rape, MC and I asked at the same time "how do you figure?" rape is a crime of violence against an unwilling person, if you give consent then how is that rape? She said she didn't know.

We discussed her attitude about the M and the need to be more positive about the M and me. She didn't see where she was being negative until MC gave her examples he has seen in our sessions. He advised her to try to improve her outlook, I gave an analagy of if you are told to go in the yard and clean up after the dog, you will not be as willing to do it as opposed to wanting to run and play in the back yard an knowing that you might step in something and doing it to keep from messing up your shoes. She understood that and has really tried to improve her attitude and actually want ot be here.

We discussed the meeting with the kids and that I shouldn't have said I had the right to be there as it came across to her that she didn't have any rights. Good point but I felt a little gunned down at that point. MC also gave us a form to fill out very similar to ENQ and asked us to work on that together. All in all a very good session I thought, WW was not so sure.

We discussed the session after the kids went to bed, and came to the conclusion that she needed to make a conscious decision to want to be here and try to rebuild our marriage. She actually cuddled with me that night and wanted to give me kisses. The next morning after the kids went to school we sat on the couch and cuddled and kissed until I had to go to work. When I came home for lunch we cuddled and kissed, I told her I didn't want to go back to work just yet and she said if you can, stay home. So i called in and stayed home we cuddled and kissed, held each other and ended up taking a nap until the kids came home from school.

Last night she wanted to cuddle and we fell asleep in each others arms. This morning was more of the same, she aslo said she was seeing progress and that it was good progress.

So far it looks like she is starting to come around a little.

ML Orchid and any others please comment.

Thank you all for your support and expert advice.

Last couple of days have been OK. She still feels that while trying to meet ENs she is caving, even though we agreed before she came out that we would try to meet top 5 ENs. Both MC sessions and the MC session last month when she was here the MC asked if she would try to work on ENs, she said yes. When we got home though she stated she would not meet affection and SF. I let it go until Thurs and pushed too hard, she says she understands my needs, but didn't want to so I gave up. I asked Fri night, she says she caved Friday night and gave in to SF. I felt bad about that and asked her why she felt she caved and why she caved. She said she has caved on everything, hand holding, hugs, kisses, sleeping in same bed, showers, and especially SF. When I asked last night she said OK, no attitude or anything, seemed like she was into it, but she says she just wanted it over and she caved. I found this very confusing seeing as how she has said she has seen progress all week with showers, hugs, kissing, sleeping in same bed, hand holding, etc... I said I thought she had shown a change in attitude and was showing signs of progress as well, but when she says she has caved just to keep the peace, I have to think that she isn't trying. I asked her what does trying mean to her, she said doing what she is doing, I said I thought trying meant you wanted to try, not cave in and asked again about the attitude change. She said yes her attitude has changed, but she still feels she has caved in on every issue. I said I thought this was a setback, she said what's up with that can't I see she is trying and has shown progress, I said yes, but if you are caving in then is that really progress? If you feel you are caving in then we are back to where we were pre A. That is not a place I want to be. This is driving me nuts. Last night we were trying to decide where to go for dinner, DD said she didn't want to go out, especially to the place DS asked to go to. It triggered an AO at DD and WW, I ahd reached a high level of frustration and it all came out. WW said she understands I am on a rollercoaster and was waiting for an outburst. I will admit DD not wanting to go out to eat anywhere is a big trigger, and it was set to a very light pull last night. All was good until that trigger. I apologized to everyone, WW said she wouldn't hold it against me, but I think it was a very big LB. This whiole trip has been very confusing, we have discussed my confusion and WWs confusion to no avail. She doesn't understand my confusion and I find her words to be double talk or talking in circles. When she says "I'm trying, you have even said you see how hard I'm trying, you ahve seen positive progress, I've told you I've seen positive progress, even though I don't want to be here or with you, even though everything I do is caving in to you, so how can you be confused. I say I am because of what you just said, she can't understand, she says she is here for the kids, doesn't see how wanting to try for the kids can spill over to us. I just don't know anymore. Any advice???