Will Having MNy WW Look At This Site Help? I have read Suzet's thread about "Fog and Withdrawl" and she recommended it, but would like some other opinions. WW seems to be in the fog and deep withdrawl. Says she misses OP terribly and can't stand it some days, cries for hours. WW still won't talk other than to say she wants to be with OP and end marriage, but next time we talk she wants to work on marriage, not real enthusiastic, but says she wants to.

If she is willing to come here & read, I highly suggest it. I am sure there are some WS on here that would post to her. Maybe someone can direct you to some good threads. Also there is a link somewhere for a WS recovery tool kit. That would be very helpful for her to read.

Good Luck & hang in there!!!

Kimberly

Kimberly,

Thank you. I will show this site to her Friday. She is coming here to visit for the weekend.

She looked at the site, but doesn't want to join, thinks it won't help. She is still under the Military No Contact, but thinks that OM will be waiting when she retires. She states that she can find happiness only with OM, is very happy with kids, but can't seem to find any happiness with me. Refuses to do a NC letter, but will be returning here at Thanksgiving for 2 weeks, and we will go to OKC for Christmas until 3 Jan. Went to MC yesterday, he thinks we can make it work, but did not help with NC letter, stated that when I made her call the OM on D-Day should be sufficient. She still holds strong emotional ties and refuses to believe there is a GF in the OMs life. They have discussed a future together, and she will not entertain the idea of coming here to be locally available to the kids. Says she will give up anything for the kids, but when asked does that mean the OM as well the answer is NO. Very confused about all of this. Asked her to dig deep and look deep into her heart to try to find a small ember that we can fan to small flame, defenses go up, ask her to do same to find smallest bit of happiness, something we can build on, defenses go up and she refuses. Don't know what to do at this point, but still trying to hang in there. She says she doesn't want me to touch her, but is willing to hold hands, kiss, sleep in same bed and cuddle, even though she doesn't want to she is trying to. All very confusing. Thoughts, Comments?

EAgle, she is exhibiting all the very normal traits of a person who is withdrawing from an affair. Your job is to do your best to meet her needs and avoid lovebusters. Are you certain that she has ended contact with the OM?

Have you read the Harley books, Surviving an Affair and His Needs, Her Needs?

While these forums are a great support system, there is no substitute for contacting an experienced professional like Steve Harley or his sister Dr Jennifer Harley Chalmers. Have you considered contacting them?

TMCM

I just recieved the books in the mail, but haven't read them yet, I bought a copy for her also so we can both read them and hopefully institute a plan for recovery aasell as a stronger plan A.

I believe she has not had contact, her career and retirement is at stake.

I plan on trying for an appt over the phone next week and a follow up when she is here at Thanksgiving. I have also contacted her chaplain, he is her counselor, and asked if he can find out from the OM if it is indeed over or is he waiting for her retirement. I will let you know as soon as I hear anyhting.

Eagle, that is excellent that you got the books; please read them as fast as you can. Be careful about suggesting them to your W. She may be quite resistant to the idea of being educated.

Do you think the OM would be honest with the chaplain about contact? I wouldn't rely too much on his honesty.

When she is home for Thanksgiving, you can probably find out pretty quickly if contact has truly ended if you prepare yourself by installing some spy detectors on the expected mode of commmunication.

Does she have a cell phone?

A personal computer?

How does she communicate with OM NOW?

How will she communicate with him at home, if she does?

How did you find out about the affair?

She is willing to read and do the exercises with me, she has a cell, bill comes here, laptop but doesn't use it much, only way to com with OM I know of would be at work or off base somewhere in person, but that would jepordise her career and retirement, she says she will not do that.

This is how I found out.

Yes I have read everything on the website and ordered the books, they should be here today. The first thing I found was Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. It pretty much covers everything, alot like Dr. Harley.

I haven't started a Plan A yet, she is living in OK City, stationed at Tinker AFB, I am in Huntsville, Al, we are waiting for her retirement 1 Feb 06. Makes it hard to work as she is in another state and the phone is the only contact.

I'm not sure she is set on divorce, but she says she loves this guy, he's her soul mate, and she wants to be with him. The AF has put out a No Contact Order to all three of us, if she or I contact him she will be charged with disobeying a direct order, same if he contacts either of us.
She did call after confessing (4hrs later and very reluctantly) and left a message in his answering machine while I was there stating I knew about the A and there would be no contact while she worked on her marriage. She is definitely going through withdrawl and gets very moody sometimes.

I will have her look at Judith Wallerstein's book it may help. She is in counseling with the base chaplain, one a week, she keeps me informed of her whereabouts, and has promised she will not have contact to keep from ruining her career. She wants to stay in OKC, but is going through the motions to move here. One of my greatest fears is she will retire and stay in OKC and won't tell me or the kids until the day she retires.

I am in counseling, she will be here this weekend and is willing to meet with my counselor, we have an appt Friday.

The A started Aug 26, I have the emails etc... She has slept with him twice and has determined she is madly in love. Very confusing as she has always despised people who do this kind of thing.

I found out about it when the kids and I drove out for her birthday to surprise her. We waited outside the base hospital for her to get off work, when she came out and saw me the look I got chilled me to the bone and scared the H out of me. She was furious. Her greeting to the kids was very cool, not cold. She was very distant, when we went to bed that night she pulled away, never did that before, worried me. the next morning after a sleepless night, as she was leaving for work she told me I Love You, but I am not in Love with you. Then went to work, I was stunned. I started looking around and in a basket on the counter were emails of an inappropriate nature between her and the OM. I called her at work and told her she needed to come right home as there is now a family emergency. She stonewalled, I insisted and told her not to BS me, after 24.5 yrs in the AF I knew she could leave for this at anytime. She came home around 10:15AM denied breaking her wedding vows all day, finally around 11:00PM she asked what if she had an affair, I told her we would work through it, she then fessed up, but didn't go into many details. The next morning I called her first sgt and the chaplain. the chaplain came over and we talked for about 3 hrs. Things improved a little, but I think the withdrawl is really getting to her, I sked her to call me if it got too bad and I would talk to her or fly out there whichever would make her happy and help her get over the hump.

She did volunteer to keep me informed of her whereabouts, she says she wants to work on the marriage, but then says she really wants to be with OM, this keeps me in a knot.

We have discussed my faults in the marriage, and I have tried to show her I have grown and am more in control of my emotions. She was very surprised I did not explode about the A and wanted to work it out. She was also surprised I didn't want to ruin her career.

We both know this is going to be a very long road, but I'm not really getting a warm fuzzy about her being comitted to working it out. That scares me. I don't want my kids shuttling back and forth, but she may push the issue. I just don't know, when I ask her about things the defenses go up and all I get is "FINE I won't do that anymore or I won't bring that up again" I haven't been giving LBs, I have tried very hard to be calm and reasuring, btu am not getting much reassurance back. This is all very confusing, but I'm trying to disarm her with kindness. I hope it works. I guess we have partially started a Plan A, but haven't completed it yet.

Because she has refused to do a NC I believe she is hoping he will be there when she retires. I don't think he will unless it is to cheat on whoever his GF is. She was pretty mad when I was talking to him D-Day +1. I am also bound by the NC the Air force has put in place, so I can't contact either. That is why I've made the request to the chaplain. I hope he can do something, and I hope the truth comes out.

Thank you,

EAgle, the bad thing about your situation is that you are living apart. That probably contributed to the conditions that led to the affair and will make recovery doubly hard. You will have to settle for a doing a Plan A long distance until she retires. If she is truly not in contact with the OM, then you have a chance to fill that void as she withdraws, but only to a small degree since you can't physically be together.

When you are together over Thanksgiving, you will have a good opportunity to meet her needs and hopefully, begin attracting her back. That means it is imperative that you understand the emotional needs concept and have a strategy to capitalize on this in the short window that she is home. You need to find out what her top emotional needs are and think of creative ways to fulfill them. Right now she is mostly hostile towards you for busting up her affair, but sanity should start coming back as she withdraws.

All of the things she is saying are textbook WS babble that we hear on here every day. It is a result of losing your mind to an addiction. So don't let it alarm you. Just remind yourself that you are dealing with an addict, similar to a crack head, who is angry because she just lost her fix.

But, you are most definitely on the right track. There is much hope if you can quickly educate yourself and learn to attract her back. So get reading, my friend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I will get reading right away. Right now she is completeing the EN questionaire and has already completed the LB questionaire. I have done same and am awaiting her responses.

Thank you for the encouraging words. I will definitely try to capitalize on the ENs during Thanksgiving.

She has stated that as the weeks go by she wants to contact and misses OM more and more, is that normal as well?

Thank you again

That is all part and parcel of withdrawal. However, the more time passes, the less and less she will think of him until she rarely thinks of him. When his influence is gone, she will start to see the affair in a different light. She will begin to see it in a more realistic light and will see how sleazy she looks through the eyes of others.

That is very promising that she is willing to take the EN questionaire! When you get it back, come here and ask for help in getting ideas on how to meet her needs. [I am terrible in this area, but others here are very creative]

Do you realize that you saved your marriage by doing this?

MelodyLane,

Thank you for the kind words. I was trying to avoid LBs and trying to save my marriage. Hopfulle it will work. On the ENs Primary #1 was conversation, others were met, the biggie was LBs top 3 killed me. I will work those and let you know. Went to see DOOM, she said she had a good time, but I still can't make her happy like OM. Still trying.

Do you have any ideas, I thought I would have been slayn on the ENs and LBs, but the LBs were the major problem, 1 Selfish Demands, 2 Disrespctful judgements, 3 angry outbursts, all others were rated not bad. I just don't know. I asked if the En conversation was all she thought I needed to work on she said yeah, but let me get back to ya on that, so she wants to review her answers. I believe through our conversation about the Ens and LBs she seemed sincere and very thoughtful with her answers. She still has doubts even though she admits I have improved. I don't know, but I will still keep trying.

Thnak you again

Well last night it all came to a head. She kept telling me how she would sacrifice everything for the kids, I called her on it and asked even the OM, stopped her cold. I told her that I thought that was contradictory, I am concerned about our childrens welfare and would not stand for them to be hurt again if she decides to retire in OKC. The children wholeheartedly believe that she is coming home on 1 Feb, I am not so sure and didn't have the heart to tell them that. Soooo we discussed it last night, she kept getting up and leaving the room, on the 3rd time I had had enough and told her she needed to stay and talk through this. She came back and we talked, I busted the top 3 LBs, I demanded an answer on the retirement, while I didn't shout I was using a very stern voice, not loud, but not taking any more crap, and I went over some very basic truths about what she has done and how it affected the family. She didn't like what I said, but admitted it was the truth, said she was sorry. She comitted to coming here on 1 Feb to try and work on the marriage and be here for the kids, mainly for the kids. She promised them this morning she would come home 1 Feb, live in our house, and be here to support them. She then told me that she now hates me, something she didn't want to happen, and I drove her to it, that I haven't changed, and she was right to be wary. She feels like she has caved in to my demands yet again. I told her she should look at it as an opportunity to right a wrong and turn something very bad and negative into a positive learning experience for all of us, especially the kids. She has the opportunity to set a shinning example, please don't throw that away. Use this as a chance to help the children heal from the hurt you have caused. I just couldn't understand why, after 3.5 years away, she can say the children would be better off if we stayed seperated, if you could have seen the kids while she was home you would immediately recognize how starved they are for her presence and attention. She couldn't see it, all she can see is her fantasy. I'm still trying, still working, will not give up yet. She is still coming for Thanksgiving, for 2 weeks, and we are going to go there for Christmas. Oh, I also exposed the affair to one of our dear friends, an older lady, we adopted as our grandma, she used to live next door to us in Fl. That really pissed her off and she wanted to know why I did it, I told her that I thought she needed to hear from someone else how destructive and just plain wrong her actions have been. She sees it as I'm trying to get more people on my team. I just don't know, the FOG is very thick.

Thank you for listening.

Eagle, I am telling you, the key to all this is attracting her back. This is your only shot to attract her back. Don't fight with her, don't make any demands, don't guit her, concentrate on being more attractive than the OM. In every interaction, ask yourself if you look better or worse than the OM.

Withhold all judgements. If she talks about how miserable you have made her all these years, don't disagree! Go along with her and tell her you are sorry and are willing to do what it takes to repair the damage.

Eagle, although this may all seem galling and unjust, let me point out a very important factor that you are missing: you are dealing with an ADDICT who isstill under the influence of her drug. You MUST understand this point. You cannot reason with an insane person. Any attempt to guilt her or make demands will only push her away. Do you understand? You MUST understand this point.

Now, if you can handle this carefully while she is withdrawing from the OM, you will have a chance because once she withdraws she will be restored to sanity.

So these are the 2 points that you MUST understand completely:

1. She is an addict under the influence of her "drug" [affair] - You CANNOT REASON with her!

2. As she withdraws, she will return to sanity and she will draw to you if you don't push her away.

MelodyLane,

Thank you for your insight. I will try to get a grip on this. Last night she mashed my buttons and then would walk away, it was more than I could handle. I will redouble my efforts to keep a cool head. I am trying very hard not to argue, but make my point in a non-threatening way. I'm still trying and now that I know what her Ens are as well as the LBs that really light her fuse I will try to make the ENs work for me and avoid LBs at all cost.

Thank you again for providing me with the insight and experience to get through this.

Eagle, believe me, I know it is hard not to react. But keep this in mind: she will attempt to bait you into a fight because she can use your anger to justify her affair. Do you see that? She will use your own reaction as ammunition against you.

When you don't react in anger to her crazy talk, it confuses her because then she cannot make YOU the bad guy. And as long as you are the bad guy, she doesn't have to look at herself.

Yes I see that now, I sent an email to our chaplain and stated that I felt like I was the bad guy, seeing it on your post really drives it home. I will continue to keep a cool head.

Thank you so much.

Eagle,

Permit me to rephrase what you are being told. Have you ever taken martial arts? What you need to do is consider this situation in this light. You cannot attack, you cannot demand, you cannot force decisions out of her. What you do is state your boundaries, you let her use her anger, and eventually guilt to illustrate to her HER actions. You won't have to do anything by protect your children, take good care of them, and reverse babble with her.

YOu did an excellent job of that by pointing out she would NOT do ANYTHING for her kids. Leave it at that and let it fester within her and her relationship. You be the ideal father, and you be a good and sensitive husband.

You must come to understand you cannot change her mind, you cannot convince her, you cannot reason with her, because she is addicted to a fantasy. All you can control is your actions, your words, your perspective.

I don't know how long you two have been married, but I would also remind you that you are entitled to a fraction of her retirement, up to a half in case of divorce. Don't threaten this, but be aware of it. Protect yourself and see a lawyer so that you know what you need to do to maintain custody of the children. They don't need to be around the OM.

Use her energy to defeat this, don't you provide fuel for the fire with LB's.

God Bless,

JL

We have been married 17.5 years, I am retired also 24.5years. I have contacted a lawyer and gained valuable insight.

Thank you for providing another way of looking at it. You have given me a new insight. I will try to keep perspective.

Thank you again.

Eagle - Sounds very promising, and you have some of the best here - JL and Mel. I hope you can realize that you are wasting your time to try to reason with her right now. She is in the fog still, and it will only make her angry.

When she pushes your buttons, come here for support. You can vent and yell here, and we will understand.

Thank you Believer, thank you.

I finished read LBs last night and am 1/3 through HNHN. Talked about LBs with WW she is going to start reading it tonight, I started telling her about what i read and she seemed interested, discussed 1-3 LBs, my problem area. Discussed suggested improvements, she seemed interested again, thought it would help. She is worried I'm only doing it for her, not myself, told her I'm doing it to improve self, to improve taking care of our children, and to show her I am serious about saving M. She accepted that and continued to talk about kids etc... All in all a pretty good discussion. I asked if she could set aside an hour or so each day to read, then call to discuss what we have read, she said OK and will read at 7PM call at 8PM to discuss. Starting with LB then to HNHN, then SAA.
More later as things progress.

Eagle, I'm an FWW, and this part of your post kind of struck me:


Hindsight is always 20/20, but instead of pounding her with statements about how terrible her actions are, a better Plan A answer might have been something like, "I want more than anything for us to rebuild our marriage and be the family we've always dreamed of, and need support from friends like (adopted Grandma)."

As an FWW, the last thing I needed to hear from my BH was how hurtful my actions were. I was completely aware of that. Rather, I needed some inkling that staying in my M would be the best course of action. As Melody Lane and others have said, you need to draw her back, not push her away.

Try to remember what made you fall in love to begin with and try to recapture times like that. Maybe get a sitter and do something special as a couple when she's home for T-giving (remember dating?). One of my turning points was being at home alone one night (I'd messed up on NC, H discovered it and took off), and picking up an old photo album. Lookign at the photos, it dawned on me that we'd had some pretty good times over the years, and there I was thinking about throwing it all out the window for (what turned out to be) a cheap thrill.

Hang in there, Eagle, but instead of LBing, Plan A like crazy. Make yourself look like the better choice.

Eagle15- I am a FWW, and coming to this site helped me so so much.
The advice of some BS and FWWs made me see the light and come out of the fog faster. You should really encourage your wife to come and post.
She will get lots of 2X4s, but they are need it to make her snap back to reality.

Myrta

GBH and Myrta,

Thank you I will Plan A like a mad man and GBH I appreciate the great words like these.
"I want more than anything for us to rebuild our marriage and be the family we've always dreamed of, and need support from friends like (adopted Grandma)."

I will move forward and try to be a better Plan A guy.

Thank you, I appreciate all the great advice everyone has provided, please continue.

Had pretty god conversation yesterday evening. She talked about work and friends. All was good. She agreed to set aside time to read LB and HNHN and discuss the areas at the end of each chapter. Thought all was going well, then she went off about having to keep me informed of her whereabouts and my anxiety when she is 15 mins or more late contacting me. She want a "longer leash" needs more slack. I told her that if she would call and let me know she was going to be late or something, a common courtesy, I would have less anxiety. She tried to goad me into a fight, LB'd me all over the place, I hung in there and said I thought she was not taking my feelings into account. I said when times were good and up to D-Day I always let her know if I was going to be late, it is a respect and caring concern thing, I never wanted her to worry. She acknowledged that, but said she didn't like accounting for her time and I needed to trust her, I said I would like to, but in light of all that has gone down recently it would be ahrd to trust her. Earning trust would take time and effort and the effrot is keeping me informed and showing care and respect by letting me know if she was going to be late. She grudgingly accepted that but wasn't happy about it. I asked her if she understood, she said yes, but didn't like it. I said I'm sorry you don't like it, but that's how you can earn my trust back. She then went on a tangent about not wanting to be with me and why couldn't I understand that, why do I want her after all that's happened, I said you are worthy of my love and you and our marriage and our family is worth fighting for, I will notive up or back down from this fight. She didn't have anything else to say about that.

This morning she groused alittle about keeping track of her time, but offered up her schedule for the day and agreed to call if anything changed. We ahd a pretty good conversation.

She is still coming at Thanksgiving, but wants to focus on our children, I said that's fine, but I thought we needed to try to normalize our relationship to pre D-Day, maybe back to where she thought things were good, she said she would try. I said we would also need to try to meet each others ENs, she said she didn't think going through the motions would help, I said it couldn't hurt, she might even like it, it might even relieve some of the stress and tension she was feeling last weekend. She said she would try, but didn't think going through the motions would help if she was feeling nothing for me and didn't want to be with me, I said please just give it a try. She said OK. I also asked her to help me with LBs, a big concern of hers, she said she would. I mentioned the LB log to her and that if I started to LB in her eyes she needed to document so we could discuss it later and also let me nkow she thought I was LBing and to stop. I said I would and she agreed to try that as well. Does this seem like progress at all? I thought it was a step in the right direction. I also said I am confident we can work this out, said she was worthy of the hard work and effort to work this out, but I think she still hopes and thinks the OM is patiently waiting for her. A very hard pill to swallow, but I keep trying.

Thank you all for your advice and support, I don;t know what I would do without your help. I am so glad I found this site.

Eagle... interesting that the phrase "going through the motions" came up a couple times there.

That is EXACTLY how I felt early in recovery and while still in WD... like I was "going through the motions." The term "fake it till you make it" also comes to mind. I know that sounds kinda negative, but work with me here.

Love is a choice... you choose to love someone. At first, while hard into WD and fresh into NC, I was still pretty foggy and the dopey brain chemicals from the A were still lingering. Loving my H felt kind of ... unnatural. I felt smothered. But as time wore on, and I got more NC time behind me, the fog started to clear more, the brain chemicals slowly went bye-bye, and it got easier to feel more loving toward my H.

Mind you, we haven't been without setbacks. There are still verbal barbs and LBs, but at a little over one year NC, I am feeling a heck of a lot better today than I felt last year at this time.

Keep in mind the turnaround won't happen overnight... for me, I think I hit rock bottom (in terms of guilt) at about the six-month NC mark. Not sure why it took that long, but that's when it hit. There were some other stresses going on at that time as well, so maybe my feeble little mind decided to combine them into one big THUMP!

So stay the course, avoid the LBs (good convo w/W, BTW!), don't smother her, but do all you can to make yourself look like the better choice. Good luck!

Do you think the normalization is a good thing? She still want to keep major distance, but will hold my hand accept kisses and hugs, would let me hold her at night, no SF, I respected that. I believe she still has high hopes that OM is patiently waiting. She does say she is trying though and sometimes it appears that she is others appears she is just going through the motions. I'll post more as things progress.

Thank you for you advice and support I certainly need it.

She also says I desperately need her and thinks I can't help myself in needing her. I just respond OK.

She has also stated that she thinks I've taken the bull by the horns and am working this too hard, but understands that is my nature and isn't upset by it just wanted me to know. I said our marriage, children, and she was worth the effort and I would not give up. She is still down on herself, but continues to state she wants a new life with OM. I'm hanging in there and when she talks like that I usually say I understand that, but I still won't give up on you, us, or our children. She doesn't understand that but accepts it, sometimes asks why? I always say she is worth the fight.

I have finished reading LB and HNHN will be starting SAA this evening. WW has gotten to pg 15 in LB and is going to read for an hour or so this evening, hopefully she will want to discuss the points at the end of CH1. I will keep posting and working Plan A. She still refuses the NC letter, but is keeping me informed of her movements, NC since 12 Oct (email I have a copy of), stioll committed to retiring her in Al (only for the kids for now), talking and having conversations, still tells me though that she doesn't want me. I have sent in the request for MC with the Harleys, waiting for a confirmation. Mentioned it to her today, she said we didn't talk about that I said sorry we did, you were non commital, so I requested it for me, if you want to be there fine, if not fine, your call, but I will follow through with the appt either way for me. So the story goes. I also sent an email about why I still tell her that I love her.

"When I say I love you what I mean is I remember with loving feelings who you were and who I was. I remember who we were. I remember the good times. I remember the way it used to be. I remember what it was like to love and be there for each other. I miss that. I love those memories and maybe, that's all they are, but they still warm my heart and make me feel good inside."

She thanked me for it and said she liked it. I just signed the email Chuck, no ILY got her attention, but still foggy. We shall see.

Should I have her read SAA first??? I'm about half through and it is a real eye opener. Comments???

Talked last night, she is reading SAA, she was upset about giving her daily schedule and checking in. I said the schedule should not be a problem, if you're going to be late please give a courtesy call, show a little respect and concern for my feelings. She said OK not a problem, no LBs rest of conversation went well, had to walk her throught putting antifreeze in her suburban, she was appreciative and grateful for that. Rest of evening was good conversation about kids, work, our house in Fl was rented yesterday (very good news), discussed the Thanksgiving trip. Decent evening.
This morning she called to talk to the kids, talked to me about her Physical training, gave me her schedule, very pleasant conversation. Seems like less fog this AM.

Eagle, her resistance to the idea of earning trust is a little disturbing to me. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. Keep your ears peeled on that one and stand your ground.

Your response to her complaints about trusting were AWESOME! You conveyed the appropriate message without lovebusting. Just keep up the good work, Eagle, you are doing great.

Thank you ML I appreciate it. I am scheduled with Jennifer on 24 Nov @ 7PM. I aske WW if she wanted to participate, she said we'll see. Initially when I told her I was going to schedule she said you didn't ask me, I said we discussed and you were non-commital on it so I am doing this for me, if you want to participate OK, if not OK, your call. She is reading SAA, albeit very slowly, last night we discussed my committment to making M work and how important it is to me for her to read, an I was getting a dragging your feet felling from her, so she committed to 7PM read minimum 1hr, discuss if she wanted after. I said if you don't want to read it no problem, just let me know when you do, she said I will read. Earlier when she was complaining about phone calls I said I would try to get a handle on my anxiety and try to not call, she immediately went into orbit accusing me of swinging the pendulum to the extreme, I had to stop her and remind her that she was shouting me down and talking over me please let me finish before you go into orbit. I sai I would only call if I couldn't handle it, she immediately calmed down and appologized for jumping all over me. All went well after that.
She still refuses to come to this site. She is at the DR getting checked for STDs and said depending on how she feels maybe ask about ADs, I told her that might be a good idea, my ADs do help to take the edge off of things.
I asked her to please let her guard down a little and bring down the defenses so we can start working the ENs, she filled out the LB and EN Qs last weekend. Conv was #1, others were OK by her LBs 1,2,3 were biggies and I am working those trying to make her feel safe and comfortable. She has stated that she doesn't feel like our new house is home, I asked her to help me decorate ar Thanksgiving so she can put her mark on it. She agreed to help and has started thinking about ideas for decorating. On En Q stated SF was great before A, had all she needed, but now wants 0 from me, when we discussed she said until she felt comfortable with my self improvements and in our house she didn't know. All other areas we good, no major complaints. Keeping up with Plan A, but still no NC letter.

Talked last night, asked her about a statement she made about the roles have been reversed. She says she is now the one in charge the strong one and I'm always saying I'm sorry, asked me how it felt, I said not good and reminded her that I almost always appologized for my transgressions, she snapped back "Not Always", and I said yes that's what I said almost always, not always. she accepted that. I asked her if I had ever hurt her as bad as she is hurting me and if I had ever done anything as bad as this to her, she said no, I asked if she would ever be able to forgive the hurt iA caused her with LBs and she said I don't know, maybe. We had a good conversation about her day and mine after that. I talked about the kids, then she talked to them, we talked again and she said to back off with the flowers and cards. I've sent a card about every other day, but she only checks mail once a week so she saw it as too much. So I'm backing off on the cards. Any suggestions? Is this good or bad?

I sent her some links to MB yesterday she said she would look at them and she is reading SAA, up to page 34. I will ask her again if she would like to post here. So far she has seemed slightly interested, but doesn't want an account yet. I'll keep you updated as things progress.

Eagle, I think it is a good idea to back off on the cards, flowers and calls. Too much of that can push away a detached person. Let her come to you. If you are chasing her, she will run.


Ouch. What can you do to change this perception? Are you apologizing too much? It may seem out of whack for you to apologize when she is the one who had the affair. Are you coming across as needy or clingy? I would think about that, Eagle, and if you are, do your best to change that pronto.

We talked this morning, all went pretty well. She gave me her schedule and said she would call sometime today. I asked about still hating me she said I don't like the word hate, but I'm still very mad at you. I said OK I understand is there anything I can do to make up for it? She said not right now, we talked about her plans for the day and I asked her to read a couple of emails I sent yesterday, came from here, one about love and the other about forgiving. I said I thought these might help ease her mind and help her forgive herself, she is still down on herself about all this. We discussed plans for Thanksgiving dinner, she said she really loved banana pudding, you know with the vanilla wafers and banana slices, I said well we can make some for Thanksgiving dinner, she said I don't now we'll see. We thentalked about different foods our parents cooked when we were growing up, a lot of similarities there, I got her to laugh a couple of times which was good, I said I love to hear you laugh it's music to my ears, she just said Oh.
That's about it for now I'll post more as the story progresses.

Mel,

Thank you, I hope I'm not coming across as needy or clingy, but I will back off, and let her pursue. i will also stop saying I'm sorry and start saying I'm sorry you feel that way. Any suggestions?

Don't say much of anything. Ask questions and listen, listen, listen. Tend to agree. Instead of "I'm sorry" say "I'm listening" or "I understand". If it's fog babble, say "yes, dear" then reverse babble right back.

Have patience and try to go out with wife on dates. Just make plans, arrange the babysitter yourself and get out with wife like you did when you first met. I'm not talking big romantic evenings. Dinner and movies. Ice Creme at the park. A night out partyin'. If she will not go then go yourself. If she wants to sit and not speak then do not speak...pull out a book. Dr. Harley just recommends spending 15 -25 hours alone together to restore "love"...there is no obligation that that time needs to be spent dwelling on relationship issues.

You want her love back. Think of it as roasting a pig. Tend to fire and baste the pig regularly and after quite some time you've got some tastey ham. (lol...I have know idea how to roast a pig...I must try to come up with analogies I myself understand...I left it in cause it is so bad...a pig, really??)

BTW...your sitch is very similiar to mine. My wife and I both post under this name. She started posting under WWWondering back in June or July. If you search back you may get some insight in how your WW is thinking. If you search our/her August and Sept posts you will see where you can get too in the next few months of your recovery. Have patience...it is worth it.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

Mr. W Thank you for the good advice. I will check out your wife's posts.

Mr. W I am having trouble finding your wife's posts. Can you help me with this?

Thank you

If she is willing and truly wants to, yes. I wouldn't push it though. She may be very uncomfortable, feeling like this is "your territory" and she may feel she is being viewed as "the enemy." Obviously, that is not the case; however, she will need to feel that it would be helpful and not a trigger to simply induce pain in vain. She needs to feel like it will truly help her to explore this.

Mrs. Wondering's First Post

Mrs. Wondering update in August

There are a ton in between and after but there is hope for your situation.

Mr. W

Having a bad day, gut tells me NC may be broken sometime today or this weekend. I called and talked to the chaplain, we prayed, still no relief. Called WW and explained my feeling, she is having a rough day as well crying that she wants to see OM, doesn't want to talk to me.
I asked her to contact the chaplain and talk to him, she said she's a big girl and would get through it.
What is happening? Any insight?
She has never been like this, told me to stop calling and then said I'm sorry you're feeling bad and I told you to call when you felt bad talk to me so I did, she started crying again said thanks for calling, I hung up and now am even worse. Could this be the crash? She refuses to take ADs won't even ask for them.
Any Ideas? Help

Eagle-

My FWW faked working on the marriage for about 5 weeks into MC, then she fessed up completely to everything she had done.

Not being clingy is a good thing. Now is not the time for you to apologize, that can come later if it's necessary. Right now you are in the right so keep acting like it.

Exposure is a great tool, nice touch with "grandma."

Don't think for a moment someone in the throes of a great love won't risk their career or anything else. She's already risked her whole family, right? And 17 years of marriage.

Stay vigilant.

mflake,

Thank you for the support, I'm trying like ******, but was worried. I just talked to her, she seems to have gotten a grip on herself for the moment, still upset though, won't call her chaplain. Don't know what's up, but hangin in there.

Eagle-

Just wanted to point out that I really think you've done a great job so far.

You've received a few suggestions to cut back on the flowers and cards and such...I made that same mistake in my recovery as well friend, and the suggestions are on the money...it would be a good thing to back off on that a bit. Make sure that you listen calmly to what she's got to say, respond accordingly, and be open and honest about things. Cut back on saying I love you, let her start worrying about what YOU're feeling for a change...trust me, if you step back some, she WILL start asking.

I do hope that there hasn't been any kind of resumed contact today...I would seriously suggest that you DO ask her what happened today that caused her to behave the way she did...and definitely pay attention to what she says and how...look for lies, and don't be afraid to openly question to make sure she is telling the truth.

Hang in there friend...hope things work out for you.

Owl,

Thank you I will find out what the cause was for today. I'll post more later after I talk to her this evening.

Thank you again

I asked her to read a couple of emails I sent yesterday, came from here, one about love and the other about forgiving. I said I thought these might help ease her mind and help her forgive herself, she is still down on herself about all this.



Dear Eagle,
Forgiveness is a wonderful thing, but you must be cautious in giving forgiveness too soon. She needs to know the impact of her affair. Do not discount your pain due to her affair. She will not appreciate what she doesn't have to work for.

Sending you hugs ((Eagle))
This is a hard road to travel.

Thank you KD. She is really having a hard day and being very mean spirited. I'm about to stop contact unless it deals with the kids. She called a few minutes ago after reading one of my emails and again in my face with the I don't want you stuff, I said I understand that, she said no you don't, I said OK and she said why are you doing this I said because I chose to love you and because of our family. Wrong answer, I then asked her if she thought someone who would start an affair with a known married woman was the type of man she wanted and she said yes I said OK. I guess it is time to get off the phone, By. All very weird and confusing. Trying not to LB, but it's very hard. I think it would be better to not talk at all. She says I only hear her to a point then shut her down I said I hear everything you say but may be in denial about your feelings about OM. She says Oh really why? I guess it's fog babble I don't know. Just hangin in there.

Just back off completely, Eagle. Let her calm down and let her do the calling.

Instead of carrying on all of this conversation that is skirting around the issue...flat out ASK her what has prompted her bad behavior today? Has she broken NC?

Ask her what the heck is going on with her today...and tell her that you think that she's broken NC. Watch her reaction, and gauge your responses based on that.

If she HASN'T broken NC and you're reasonably convinced of that...be a duck and let her foolish comments wash over you. If she has...then take whatever action you feel is appropriate. Do NOT shield her from the consequences of her actions.

Just my thoughts...

If she has broken NC I would be very tempted to inform her Commander, that's bad, she will lose her retirement, stripes and probably get the boot from AF with 19yrs and 9.5 mos. I don't know if I could live with that. She refuses to do an NC letter, and is hidding behind the AF ordered NC order. The fantasy is he is patiently waiting, D-Day was the day before her birthday, my son called the OM on her Bday after seeing their emails on the counter, I called the OM after my son told me he did, the OM was in bed with his GF when my son woke them up, she was having a fit while I was talking to OM. Told WW about it and she called me a liar and blamed sons call on me, I was in garage smoking, not even in the house. This is driving me crazy. Sorry for the rant, but this seems to be the only place I can vent. I'll back off completely and let her stew, I really thought she was crashing earlier, but she seems to have fought it off or is hidding it well. Looks like back off is the best policy.

Thank you for letting me vent and rant, also for the good advice. I can use all I can get.

She called last evening to talk to kids and me, Said she was just having a bad day and did not break NC. Had to work last night and is still reading SAA. Finds it interesting, but one of the stories I think Sue and Jon, says Sue is stupid. Doesn't see parallels. Fog?
Will post more as time progresses. Letting her do the calling, no sorroes or appologies, just facts and reverse babble.

Shecalled this morning after work and we had a pretty go conversation about her work and patients, a guy on meth treatment out of his head. She also talke about SAA said sue was an idiot she didn't know what she wanted, but WW knows what she wants and that is a life with OM. I asked if that would be a good example for our children, a man that broke up our marriage and had an affair with a married woman. She siad no, but kids are resilient. I asked if she thought a relationship built on lies was a good one she said she never lied to OM and he never lied to her, she just lied to me and the kids, I said Oh OK, I don't understand it but OK. She talked to the kids and then hung up. Very strange, I believe even though she says she wants to try and work on marriage for the kids she is holding on to a fantasy of the OM patiently waiting for her and is not putting a full effort into it. She also thinks this forum is B***S*** and will lead to too much time on computer. I hope this is just fog talk. More as things progress.

She also said going through the motions was BS and didn't think it would help. Thinks that we will be at each others throats when she is here and that children would be better off here and her in OKC. But she Loves them and would sacrifice everything for them. Very confusing.

Eagle, are you in touch with the OM's gf? Has she been involved in all this?

No I have no way of contacting her I don't even know her name.

Where does she fit in all this? Does your W know he was in bed with someone else that morning? Do you think the gf knows about his affair?

I told W GF was there in bed, she denied it he told her she was only one, and he was falling for her. She told me I was a liar it was not true. GF was very upset while I was talking to him asking if WW had been there, etc...

Even though I am under no contact from AF do you think I should call him and find out if he has moved on or as him to break it off?

Does the chaplain know about the GF? Could you speak to him about her? See, I think the GF should be notified of the affair so she can protect herself and I also think the chaplain should tell your W about her. That will throw a huge wet blanket on the affair.

I don't think it will do any good to call OM. He is a liar and will just lie to you. If he had any decency he wouldn't screwing around with married women anyway.

And he does know she is married, right?

And one other question, has she received STD testing?

The chaplain knows about GF but WW thinks I lied to him.

I ahve noway of contactin Gas I don't know her name, if I called OM's cell he wouldn't let me talk to her anyway.

He knows she is married. Any Ideas???

She was tested for STDs Thursday and will get results next week.

hmmmm, can you think of any way to find out who the GF is? Does the chaplain know who she is? I think she could be the key here in blowing up this affair. First off, it would prove to your W that he is just using her and it would cause the OM huge troubles.

Chaplain doesn't want to get involved with that, already asked. Only way I know of is to call OM cell and hope GF asnwers.

Well, you have tried being the nice guy, and that isn't working. I think I would continue on with my life, do fun things, and put wife on the back burner.

If OM has a girlfriend, it will come out soon enough. When you try to tell your wife that he does, it will just make her defend him, and make her angry at you. Trust me, she will believe him over you everytime.

Are you going out and doing fun things to make your life good again?

Trying to, hard with 2 children around, I take them wherever I go. They are great kids. I enjoy their company.

I hope you are getting out with some adults. This stuff is extremely hard on a person. I let all my friends/workmates/neighbors know that I was up to go do things. It helped get my mind off of all of the problems.

Eagle, if there is anything you can think of to find out the GF's name or get in contact with her, I would do it. If you at least had a name, you could give your W her name and/or even contact her. That would be a HUGE blow to the affair for your W to find out that he was screwing around on her.

Its too bad that you don't live close by so you could watch his house for the GF.

I think I'm going to hire a PI to get a name and pictures. That is all I can come up with right now.

Eagle, that would be awesome! I think it would be a death blow to the affair and would expose him for what he is. It would probably be very well worth the money.

Eagle, seeing how she is so close to retirement, I hoped you weighed what impact her getting in trouble will effect her military retirement. Remember its your retirement too!! Just thought I would throw that out there.

Yes I have thought about it. I won't ruin her retirement, but I would like to get more info on this guy and his GF or GFs. I think he is a dogs dog. What used to be called a player.

Eagle, I agree. I think you have a GREAT opportunity here to ruin him. If your W finds out he is with other women, he will be ruined in her eyes. You will have to present any intel very carefully, so as not to make her defensive, but we can help you with that.

She is reading SAA up to ch 6, is willing to discuss the issues at the end of the chapters. She has been calling and informing me of her travels, actually called a couple of times to let me know she was going to be late from work. She is also trying to not LB, and appreciates I'm not LBing. She is trying to let me meet ENs, now accepts occaisional card and appreciates it. I am providing very few ILYs, only when I forget (twice this weekend), talking about kids, job, shopping for Thanksgiving, she is sending a shopping list for dinner, called me about a roasting pan on sale at Kohls, she was going to get one, but said we didn't need 2 so asked me to get one here. Planning Christmas, presents for kids, etc... All in all a pretty good weekend. She got the lst card I sent 1 week after last card, really liked it. Seems like maybe WD and fog are easing up a little. I certainly hope so.

More as the story develops

I am waiting for call back from PI. Cost, can they do it etc... Will post more as I find out more.

We had good conv last night after she read ch 7 of SAA said she thought it would work, had good conv with kids, thought all was well. Talked this morning very upbeat then she said she couldn't put 100% into marriage still loves OM, and wants to be with OM. I said I understand, but keep trying to work on M. Said she would, but not 100%. She is still reading SAA and will start LB when finished.

Is this still Fog?

Still waiting for PI call. Contacted AllState Investigations.

More to follow.

Yes that is fog. Good job on contacting the PI!

Any recommendations for a PI?

I wish I could help in that regard, but unfortunately I have no experience there. Maybe some others will chime in here.

Big LB, sent this in an email as food for thought.

James 5:19-20
My dear brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders away from the truth and is brought back again, you can be sure that the one who brings that person back will save that sinner from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.

got this back from chaplain.

I have looked into this verse, and you can also by going to
www.crosswalk.com. You can look at dated contextual analysis of the context
of this Scripture there as well.

My dear brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders away from the truth and is brought back again, you can be sure that the one who brings that person back will save that sinner from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.

Because I was asked what I thought by WW on this Scripture, I am writing to give my opinions on what I think God is saying here.

1. The "truth" spoken of here is, that Jesus Christ is God's Son, sent to save people from sin through faith in Him. The "sinner" spoken of here is one who has denied Christ. This is not to be used to point a finger at
someone who has made mistakes. Which is my feeling, is the context it is presently being used.

2. Though, there is a general principle of applicability here. The idea of assisting someone by bringing them back, who has wandered away from
faith is a tremendous task. If done within the context of self, and not God, is the wrong reason. Generalizing to help someone out of love from falling into sin, is a basic foundation of love - ask any parent. Why do we punish children? - to keep them from later folly by teaching them certain decisions/behaviors have negative consequences.

3. The larger chapter is about: rich people have difficulty with faith, suffering for the faith, keeping your oaths, sickness, earnest prayers, and the "truth." In the larger context of this Scripture, it simply is not
addressing infidelity issues.

I think this is yet another attempt to demonize WW - which I don't think will help your cause. My advice is to continue working on what you discovered about your own contributions that lent the marital relationship to its present state.

Another Scripture comes to mind, "Why do
you point out the speck in your brother's eye, when you have a plank in your own?"

I am saddened that you both find yourself in your present marital state. But could'ves and should'ves don't really matter now. It really matters now of how you both look to God for forgiveness, and what you allow Him to do
within your situation(s). Finger-pointing and trying to fix each other isn't well received right now; self-responsibility and moving forward ought be the goal.

Again, I apologize for the "up-front" nature of this letter. I think that by claiming that "I have the power to bring someone from sin" is a self-righteous folly. I only have power over me. I can try to control
someone else, but they have to relinquish their own personal control for this to happen - otherwise I'm just control flappin in the wind. It is my intent by being "up-front" to help avoid some of the "flappin" by both of
you.

My prayers still go up for you both and your kids regularly.

and here is my response.

I didn't send this as a finger in the eye or as punishment, I saw it and thought it might help. I am not pointing fingers or trying to demonize WW. I just thought it might help. I will cease and desist with anything I think is of interest until I ahve asked her if she would like to see it. Again I in no way shape form or fashion was trying to demonize, punish or finger point.

I have prayed for God to take this situation under his control and guidance and provide his solution. I have put it in his hands.

WW,

I'm sorry you saw it that way, that was not my intention at all. I just thought you might like to see it.

Comments? Help?

Had good session with Jennifer last night, discussed with WW and all was pretty good. Good conv WW seemed pleasant and upbeat. Jennifer had a lot of insight and provided tools to assist in getting over LBs. If only WW would talk to Jennifer on 24th we could be moving forward.

EAgle, I am so glad you counseled with Jennifer! Did your WW talk to her too? How did she react to her?

WW is in OKC right now, didn't talk to her last night. I have another counseling session scheduled for 24 Nov, while she is here, and hopefully she will talk to Jennifer then. She is thinking about it and Jennifer would like to talk to her, but it's her decision, I can't make her talk.

Talking to Jennifer was a great help, I was having a bad day yesterday and it got worse around 4:30, my sister is in the hospital with a blood clot in one of her lungs, should be out Monday.

Pi was too expensive and said couldn't do much unless I was prepared to spend BIG BUCKS, so exposing OM GF will probably not occur. Oh well some days you win some days you lose, most days you break even.

Well had good conv last night, then half way through she started to put up defenses. Very strange. At the begining of conv she was upbeat seemed happy talking and telling me what was going on sharing her self, etc... then as the conv progressed, no LBs from me just encouragement and positive comments, she started getting defensive and shutting down. Not sure what this means, but seemed fog lifted for a while, then came in very heavy.

This morning when the kids called her before she left for work all seemed normal again, after 10 minutes, 5 talking to me she changed again, went on the defensive, not sure why, just normal conv about kids and upcoming Thanksgiving trip, planning menu, etc... It seems very apparent fog moves in and out randomly.

I'm hoping that she will complete the LBIJ for Jennifer and want to talk Thursday evening during my session, she said she is still thinking about it, and has until Tuesday to decide.

More as things progress or regress.

Who Knows? Only the Fog Knows for sure.

Talked last night and this morning, good conv, she's letting me know her schedule and calling if there are changes as well as when she comes and goes. conv is light and pleasant, no LBs on my part, sometimes a lot on hers. NC still in effect, just wish she would do an NC letter. What a gift that would be to me!

Both of us are looking forward to Thanksgiving and cooking together, something we always enjoyed.

Kids are doing well, some bad days for DD, but mostly good.

Going shopping today for lst of Thanksgiving stuff.

All seems to be going well, for now.

Hopefully she will want to talk to Jennifer Thurs evening.

Thats too bad about the PI, but the chances are very strong that your W will find out this guy is a player who is just using her. That will effectively kill this affair.

In the meantime, just keep doing what you are doing. As you can see, her moods go up and down, up and down, and that is a normal phase of withdrawal. Just stick with it and keep up the good work. She will come around!

Yea, that fog is a doozy.

U sound grounded and stable. That's good. Isn't it weird how they go in and out of those stages? It is even creepier when they morph right in front of your eyes. I watched my WS do that. His eyes even glazed over. Is that weird or what?!?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

L.

ML & Orchid,

Thanks for the kind words, it really helps keep my morale up.
This evening she was looking for something to simulate snow on a 4X8 Piece of plywood, a Christmas card, most bases ahve each squadron prepare a card and they put them up by the front gate so everyone can see them. A base wide competition for best card, Sq gets money from MWR for their Christmas Party. She couldn't find anything and called from Hobby Lobby, I told her to get cotton or batting, stretch it prettty thin, use spray glue to attach it and then spray with clear coat to seal and protect from weather. She didn't think it would work at first then looked at it in the store, decided it was a good idea. She was very happy and is going to call tomorrow so I can help her out over the phone. Apparently I am good for more than sticking daggers into. I will post more as events unfold.

She is flying in Tuesday evening, MC Wednesday morning, rest of day with kids. She is looking forward to cooking Thanksgiving with me, kids want to help and learn. Should be a good couple of weeks. She stated last weekend these next 2 weeks should be real intersting. She's checking to see if I'm serious about and have adopted MB principles (getting rid of LBs) and also progress on same. Sometimes I have to wonder though if she's planning on trying my patience and trying to get me to LB. We shall see! I may have to come here to rant and rave, if so, please understand and help any way you can. Please pray for us as well.

Thank you all again.

And how is she "progressing" in her Marriage Builders principles?

Not so good. She keeps telling me her heart belongs to someone else and she doesn't see a future with me. Big LB for me, but doesn't seem to phase her. According to her she's being honest about her feelings, so no LB. Weird huh?

When I bring anything up, like ripping the kids hearts out again, that's an LB.

Well, I wouldn't consider that a lovebuster to point out she is hurting the kids. A lovebuster is a defined set of behaviors and that doesn't meet the criteria. It just seems that she is holding you to MB principles, but is not interested in practicing them herself. When she "checks" to see if you are serious about it, I would ask how serious SHE is about them. It is a two-way street, after all.

Youu right I will try that. I'm hoping she will fill out the LIBJ for Jennifer this weekend and participate Thurday.

I'll keep posting.

Thank you for all your help.

ML, I am considering pulling out all the stops Tuesday evening, candles, wine, whirlpool tub full of bubble bath so she can unwind from the trip, after talking to the kids and putting them to bed. How would you see this as "over the top" or a nice gesture?
I sent a card last week, she liked it and was happy with it.
Any thoughts on things i can do will be appreciated.

Thank you again.

You know, I wonder if that might not be too much. And I will explain why. She is still detached from you and is in withdrawal. If you make this romantic gesture, there will be an expectation for her to respond. And there lies the rub, Eagle. She won't be able to respond and this will aggravate her because when she can't respond appropriately, she will feel like a class A jerk. When you overdo it, it only pushes her away for this very reason.

This is a good idea, but I would wait until she is further out of withdrawal. The timing is just not right.

I would back off somewhat. Be pleasant and nice, but don't focus all the attention on her. Don't make her the center of attention. Let her EASE into the role of wife and mother, while subtly meeting her needs the best you can. The idea is to attract, attract, attract...

ML,

Again great advice. I'll back off on that plan.

Thank you.

Well, last night and this morning things have seemed to level off, she's neither happy or sad, just kind of blah. Some talk some one word answers, seems strange. No LBs from either of us. Will see what today brings.

Bump

I posted to your other thread, eagle.

In His arms

Mortarman,

Thank you

ML & Orchid,

Any Ideas on what I should do? The kids and I always giver flowers when she gets off the plane. Anything else?

ML & Orchid,

Isn't there like a nuclear option for blowing away the fog???

Well, checking the cell bill from pre A to current, last night saw numbers I didn't recognize, called it was people she works with. I called her and asked about one of the numbers talked about checking, she says it's funny she has to live by the MB rules, but I don't. I said I was curious and I wasn't the one that broke trust and checking up helps me build trust. She "Whatever makes you feeel good", she was mad as H***. Told me to just ask and she would tell me, and I have to admit she hasn't lied that I can tell since D-Day. She ahs deleted all emails, never gave home email or cell #. That's a good thing. All contact was from work. Shenow see's it as LB for checking and said I'm going to tell the chaplain today in my session and the MC tomorrow in our session. I said OK tell whoever. Shee alaid now who's going behind who's back?

comments???

Which MB rules does she claim you broke? Unconditional trust is not a MB principle. If anything, unconditional trust is discouraged.

I would let her know that she is free to check your cell phone records and emails or anything else she wants. She destroyed your trust in her, and this is part of the process necessary for her to regain your trust. Your building of your trust in her is a good thing; nobody should be upset.

Her idea of you just asking her about things would be fine if you did trust her completely, but you are not to that point yet.

NCN,

Thank you, my feelings exactly. Maybe she will change her mind and after she cools down she'll understand.

Well good morning everyone. I hope Thanksgiving went well for all of you. It was a good day in our house, WW was upbeat and cheerful. After lunch I was laying down on the couch taking a nap and she wanted to take a shower with me, but didn't wake me. She told me about it later, so the next day, I asked if she wanted to take a shower together and she got very angry, I said OK not a problem, she no let's get it done, I said I was uncomfortable with this as she was not happy with it, she said get in here, I did and when we got out she said she was miserable with the whole thing, NO SF mind you just a shower. Later when we discussed it she said she felt that I made her cave in again, I asked how and she said she thought about it all evening and night Thursday and the more she thought about it the more she felt I was making her cave in (read as a demand). I asked how could that be when I said I didn't want to because I was uncomfortable with it. She finally came to the conclusion that she was seeing everything I say as a demand or a control issue and she was not trying to be more positive about things. Still says no SF, no more showers together, but decided to allow me to show her affection and try to return affection in a positive way.

I asked her if it would be acceptable to try to return some affection, try to do some nice things for me (random acts of kindness)and accept what I was trying to do for her instead of discounting everything and saying "I give you an A for effort, but you just can't meet any of my Ens." When I asked why I got "because I don't feel anything for you." I asked "didn't you agree to meet my needs and allow me to meet yours before you came here?" She said yes, but I don't feel anything for you, so I don't want you to meet my needs. I asked her "didn't you agree to meet ENs in our MC session Wednesday, didn't you agree to accept the risk that you might be able to fall in love with me again?" She said yes, but I don't feel anything for you, I said you won't feel anything for me for awhile, you probably never will if you keep shutting me out. When you agree to something don't you think you should try to live up to that agreement? Do you agree that trying sometimes requires you to do things that you might not want or feel like doing? She said yes, that's why she is here, but here heart is not in it she still wants to be with OM. NC is still in effect, but she still thinks he is patiently waiting for her.

The neighbor came over and visited for a couple of hours Friday night all went well. We played football with the kids in the back yard, played Monoply with the kids and neighbors Saturday night. When ever anyone is around she is affectionate, but as soon as we are alone she clams up. She says her defenses are down, but she still doesn't feel anything, and therefore will not accept my affection (#3 on her ENs questionaire). She says I am meeting all of her other ENs, but I can't meet that one because she doesn't feel anything.

She said she was going to talk to the kids this weekend about what she has done and how wrong it is. She kept putting it off and wants to talk to them alone, I told her this morning I wanted to be there so she did not blow smoke and sugar coat the whole thing. She got mad and accused me of trying to control the discussion, I said if you are going to tell them the truth then my presence should not be an issue, shae said OK, but said I made her cave in again. I said if you are going to tell them the truth, not sugar coat things, not blow smoke, then this should not be an issue, and that is not controlling or caving in, it is doing the right thing. I said the kids are afraid to talk to you about this issue because they are afraid you will leave or not come home when you retire. She said she wouldn't do that to them and I said have you told them that? They are very aware of the A and everything that has gone on with the exception of what has gone on between WW and I for the past few years.

I apparently LB'd this morning, I got up to get in the shower, got a cup of coffee, showered, got out and she offered me a cup of coffee, I said I already have one, didn't say thank you right away and was immediately chastised for not accepting her act of affection. I hugged her and kissed her and said thank you, it was unexpected and after the last few days of being told I made her miserable I didn't think about it, I just responded that I already had a cup (my normal routine on work days). She said she understood, but still had an attitude.

This is still very hard to do and she still refuses to do an NC letter. We talked about that and I said it made me feel that she was hedging her bets, she said she wasn't, but she also wasn't ready to do the NC letter, the AF mandated NC should be enough. I said the NC letter would allow her to focus more on the marriage because she will have ended the A on her terms and would not have the OM rolling around in the back of her mind. I also asked her if she thought it was fair to anyone involved to keep them hanging. She said no, but still no NC letter.

She is doing most of the MB stuff for Plan A, but still continues to block me out when it comes to the affection EN, she has recognized that I am doing all the right things, but says that until she starts to feel something she can't accept what I am doing for her. I asked her to try to accept things, and try to respond in kind, she said she would, but doesn't see how that can help. I said it couldn't hurt and maybe if she felt good about doing a few nice things for me, maybe in a few months she would start to feel a little something. So she started trying last night, when we cuddled she cuddled back and returned my hugs, when I held her she held me back, she didn't say she was miserable this morning, but she may tell me that this afternoon. I kissed her before I left this morning, asked for a big kiss, we did she kissed me back and she smiled a little, walked me out to the truck and waved goodbye. Hopefully this is a good sign.

She says she trusts me and has faith in me, but doesn't have faith in saving our M, I told her she was worth all the hard work and the fight to save our M and she got tears in her eyes. I asked her if she thought she was worth it and she said I guess.

I'm hoping this is still fog, boy does she hate that term, but can't come up with a better one.

Sorry for the long post, but I had to get this down and out of my system.

Thank you all for all of your support and for listening.

Good job, Eagle! She is right where she is supposed to be. I think as her defenses drop, she will discover, all on her own, that the OM is a player who has only used her. Once she discovers this, she will be devastated and will come to you. The only thing I would suggest is that you quit asking her to meet your needs. Let that come from SH instead of you.

It is extremely hard for a detached person to meet her spouse's needs and that expectation is going to push her away. Let her come to you and avoid talking about it. Do your best to meet her needs in a subtle, non pushy way. She is viewing this as a demand, which is not attractive.

Your shows of affection are very HARD on her right now because she CANNOT return the favor. Too much affection is irritating to her because it obligates to something she cannot deliver. It has the effect of a lovebuster. So, be very careful with this and be as subtle and non pushy as you can.

And please avoid using the term "fog". A person in a fog doesn't realize it so using the term only makes her defensive. It's a fine line to walk, but you want to do everything you can to avoid making her defensive without letting her cakeeat. For example, it made her defensive when you asserted your presence into the "talk" with the kids. But that was NECCESSARY in order to protect the kids and to not allow her to inject her fantasy into the children. On the other hand, telling her she is in a fog serves no such good purpose and only works against you.

If she is defensive, then she is too busy protecting herself from you for self analysis. If she is in defense mode, she will be defending her activities instead of taking a necessary hard look at herself. So do what you can to avoid making her defensive, it works against you.

I think you handled her complaints about control, "caving in", extremely well. Especially about talking to the kids. You are doing very well, Eagle

Melody,

Thak you for the boost of confidence.

She saw the term fog in SAA and on this site when I aske her to read SC's posts. She read them voluntarily,saw some similarities, but says that she never lied to OM only to me and the kids.

I will quit asking her to meet my ENs, although she is meeting most of them on her own. She doesn't mind hand holding, a kiss every now and then, sitting next to me on the couch, an occasional hug, she just won't do the affectionate intimacy stuff and SF. I'm trying to not push either of these, but I have let her know that they are on my top 5 ENs, she has my EN questionaire and is aware of them.

I will try very hard to not make her defensive, but sometimes saying good morning seems to make her defensive. Sometimes I feel like anything I say makes her defenses go up, other times she is easy to be around. I find it very confusing. She recognizes she is sending mixed signals and says that I am also and wants to clarify the things she says. She also syas I am listening better (#1 EN) and really appreciates that.

Thank you again.

I agree absolutely. She is looking for opportunities to BE defensive and is manufacturing greivances. That way she can be the victim and you can be the bad guy, which is a great guilt deflector. But I think you are doing good discerning the difference. She was defensive about your insistance that you sit in on the conversation with the kids, but that was necessary. I know it is confusing, but just keep trying to discern the important things from the unimportant.

ML,

I will.

Thank you I reall appreciate your help and advice.

Last night was good, we went to WalMart to pick up some things for the kids. She saw Christmas cards and wanted to buy them so we can send them out with our new address here in Al. She is going to work on them today or tomorrow.

She had already talked to the kids before I got home from work, but with the kids present to confirm what she said she told me everything, the kids had nothing to add to what she said. I said I had wanted to be there, but since she wanted to tell them by herself and she told me everything that was said I said thank you for your honesty, this does help rebuild trust, but I would have liked to have been here for it and think I have a right to be there whenever she discusses something like this with the kids. She didn't agree but accepted that.

She brought me coffee this morrning, I thanked her for it, hugged her and kissed her, she seemed to appreciate it, but also seemed to want to turn her head a little away from the kiss (just a peck on the lips).

She also says she feels like she is in an Uncle's house not her own house, feels uncomfortable. She has never lived in this house and only visited for short periods, we just bought it at the end of March of this year, it's brand new, just built. I asked if we needed to buy a new house in Feb after she retires, she said no. I asked her to try to decorate the house with me, you know put her mark on it and to try to accept responsibility and ownership of it as it is home for our children and will be her home in Feb, she said she would, but didn't see how that would change anything, I asked her to just try. She said she would, but doesn't see how it will help. I said it is like going through the motions of being a wife and mother. You haven't done that for an extended period of over 3.5 years and might need a little refresher, you might not want to do it, but if you try it you might like it.

She still feels uncomfortable sleeping in the same bed, hugs and kisses, but says she is trying to feel something, but doesn't. I said you won't feel anything for awhile maybe even a year, but please let me meet your ENs. She said OK, and she will continue to try to meet mine except SF. I said OK, she has also said she will try to be more affectionate and more positive about things. She also said she trusts me and has faith in me, but doesn't see how I can be so positive about fixing the M and that some things can't be fixed. I asked her to just have faith, even a little bit, and work with me and we can make this happen. She accepted that, but is still a little skeptical.

Yesterday she spent the day cleaning up the kids rooms, they look great now. When I went home for lunch she had candles burning all over the house, it was very nice. We ordered pizza, the kids were happy and we played cards, 21 and Texas Holdem. We had fun.

We have MC this evening, hoping it will go well. Last week she said she wanted M to be 50/50 and was happy that I was listening and trying to understand her. We'll see how this evening goes. I think things are a little smoother, but can't seem to get her to understand that feelings will come last. The MC last week asked her if she would accept risk about M meaning M might work, she said yes, asked me to accept risk that M may not work, I said yes. Then told us to work on ENs, I think this will be an interesting part of MC this evening. She has been trying and has told me she has let her defenses down, but still holds out for feelings. I am going to ask MC about feelings and hope he will address the issue.

ML, Orchid and any other FWWs do you have any other ideas???

Thank all of you for all of your great advice and help, you help me maintain my sanity.

Just got back from lunch. When I kissed her goodbye she kissed me back. 3 pecks on the lips and as I was about toturn she came in and gave me a kiss. I commented on it and she said it's not the first time, just the first time I really noticed. She thought that was funny, but seemed really happy I noticed.

Wow what does this mean?

<<BUMP>>

Well, the last couple of days have been real good. We went to MC Tues night, MC wanted to level the playing field and asked about her comments about not wanting to be here, she explained about her feelings, he asked about OM she explained all that (very painful for me & her). Mc stated that it was a fantasy as she had only known OM for 6-7 weeks and that OM was untested, but here I was after knowing each other almost 20 yrs and married over 17.5 yrs tested and found to meet even the hardest of tests and times. This made her mad (fantasy and being told that OM was a marriage breaker as well as I was the good guy). We discussed SF and other ENs, she didn't like that either, but he asked if I would let her determine when she was ready, I said yes so the ball is in her court. While discussing SF she stated that if she "Caved" and gave in to SF with me that would be rape, MC and I asked at the same time "how do you figure?" rape is a crime of violence against an unwilling person, if you give consent then how is that rape? She said she didn't know.

We discussed her attitude about the M and the need to be more positive about the M and me. She didn't see where she was being negative until MC gave her examples he has seen in our sessions. He advised her to try to improve her outlook, I gave an analagy of if you are told to go in the yard and clean up after the dog, you will not be as willing to do it as opposed to wanting to run and play in the back yard an knowing that you might step in something and doing it to keep from messing up your shoes. She understood that and has really tried to improve her attitude and actually want ot be here.

We discussed the meeting with the kids and that I shouldn't have said I had the right to be there as it came across to her that she didn't have any rights. Good point but I felt a little gunned down at that point. MC also gave us a form to fill out very similar to ENQ and asked us to work on that together. All in all a very good session I thought, WW was not so sure.

We discussed the session after the kids went to bed, and came to the conclusion that she needed to make a conscious decision to want to be here and try to rebuild our marriage. She actually cuddled with me that night and wanted to give me kisses. The next morning after the kids went to school we sat on the couch and cuddled and kissed until I had to go to work. When I came home for lunch we cuddled and kissed, I told her I didn't want to go back to work just yet and she said if you can, stay home. So i called in and stayed home we cuddled and kissed, held each other and ended up taking a nap until the kids came home from school.

Last night she wanted to cuddle and we fell asleep in each others arms. This morning was more of the same, she aslo said she was seeing progress and that it was good progress.

So far it looks like she is starting to come around a little.

ML Orchid and any others please comment.

Thank you all for your support and expert advice.

Last couple of days have been OK. She still feels that while trying to meet ENs she is caving, even though we agreed before she came out that we would try to meet top 5 ENs. Both MC sessions and the MC session last month when she was here the MC asked if she would try to work on ENs, she said yes. When we got home though she stated she would not meet affection and SF. I let it go until Thurs and pushed too hard, she says she understands my needs, but didn't want to so I gave up. I asked Fri night, she says she caved Friday night and gave in to SF. I felt bad about that and asked her why she felt she caved and why she caved. She said she has caved on everything, hand holding, hugs, kisses, sleeping in same bed, showers, and especially SF. When I asked last night she said OK, no attitude or anything, seemed like she was into it, but she says she just wanted it over and she caved. I found this very confusing seeing as how she has said she has seen progress all week with showers, hugs, kissing, sleeping in same bed, hand holding, etc... I said I thought she had shown a change in attitude and was showing signs of progress as well, but when she says she has caved just to keep the peace, I have to think that she isn't trying. I asked her what does trying mean to her, she said doing what she is doing, I said I thought trying meant you wanted to try, not cave in and asked again about the attitude change. She said yes her attitude has changed, but she still feels she has caved in on every issue. I said I thought this was a setback, she said what's up with that can't I see she is trying and has shown progress, I said yes, but if you are caving in then is that really progress? If you feel you are caving in then we are back to where we were pre A. That is not a place I want to be. This is driving me nuts. Last night we were trying to decide where to go for dinner, DD said she didn't want to go out, especially to the place DS asked to go to. It triggered an AO at DD and WW, I ahd reached a high level of frustration and it all came out. WW said she understands I am on a rollercoaster and was waiting for an outburst. I will admit DD not wanting to go out to eat anywhere is a big trigger, and it was set to a very light pull last night. All was good until that trigger. I apologized to everyone, WW said she wouldn't hold it against me, but I think it was a very big LB. This whiole trip has been very confusing, we have discussed my confusion and WWs confusion to no avail. She doesn't understand my confusion and I find her words to be double talk or talking in circles. When she says "I'm trying, you have even said you see how hard I'm trying, you ahve seen positive progress, I've told you I've seen positive progress, even though I don't want to be here or with you, even though everything I do is caving in to you, so how can you be confused. I say I am because of what you just said, she can't understand, she says she is here for the kids, doesn't see how wanting to try for the kids can spill over to us. I just don't know anymore. Any advice???

Tell her "thank you so much for "caving," it gives me great pleasure!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> You will also continue to "cave" and meet her needs by taking care of the kids, earning money, etc.

We talked last night and this morning. Last night during our talk I said I was feeling my love bank dwindling, she said she could feel deposits and withdrawls, I was so shocked I didn't know what to say. I asked her about it this morning and she said she is trying to keep my balance up and not let me make withdrawals, she is waiting till I get half way up, but I am making deposits and the deposits are more than the withdrawals, like jacking up DD.

I had asked her to try initiating, maybe that would help her attitude and also to try on an negligee and maybe that would help get her in the mood, she did, but said it didn't make a difference, I said I guess it was a dumb idea and to forget I had asked and that we should go to sleep. She initiated SF, I didn't want to, but she was trying to prove a point, it wasn't very good, at one point she asked if I was enjoying it, was I even there, I said yes, but not very convincingly.After we were done we held each other and cuddled, I said it will be a while before we do this again, and she said yes because I have to go back to OKC tomorrow, I said no because I don't feel good about it, she had no comment. Later she asked why I wasn't happy, I had gotten everything I wanted, I said yes I did, but not the way I thought it should be, this upset her as she was trying very hard to get into it, but didn't comment whether or not she enjoyed it. She said she was confused and we would discuss this later. Later never came.

She initiated showering together in the AM, brought me coffee, and all seemed to be good. She finished the Christmas cards, finished cleaning out the kids rooms and got rid of their old clothes. We had lunch and the got her stuff packed and ready to go to the airport. She seemed a little sad, but was tryign to keep busy up until we actually had to leave the house.

We took her to the airport this evening, when I kissed her she kissed back and I bent her over backwards and gave her a big kiss, she was overwhelmed and laughed a little because she said I took her by surprise and had never done that before, she liked it so I did it again and she kissed back harder. As she was leaving to go through security I told her I love you, she said I love you too. First time since D-Day. She also commented on how the last couple of weeks had been great. Maybe the fog is lifting.

She also said that I needed to go with her actions as her words tend to confuse me. Her actions are doing everything I have asked and she has commented on the fact that things get better as she does them more, verl little by little, but better, and she was getting into a routine, and was starting to feel a little more comfortable.

We'll see how things go between now and Christmas. The kids and I are going to OKC for Christmas and New Years. I will post more as things progress. Oh she also said she saw progress between us and it was a good thing.

Comments please.

Mel, thank you again for keeping me on the right path.

Chuck

OMG, I love that kiss!!! What a wonderful surprise that must have been for her. How romantic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I think you are doing just great, Eagle. And I think it is very very promising that she WANTS to fill your love bank. She is apparently coming out of the fog, isn't she?

A word of warning. The usual process is 3 steps forward and 2 steps backward, so please be prepared. She will go up and down for awhile before she levels out. So, don't let it get you down if she is cool tomorrow. Just hold on and be patient and she will warm up again. It is all part of the process.

You did a fabulous job on your Plan A! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

p.s. when is she leaving the service? Did you tell me in January?

She will be retiring on 1 Feb 2006. She is still planning to move here, she is looking forward to the kids and I going to OKC for Christmas. Walking in Sam's Club she was making short term plans and some of the things she was looking at, food items, she decided to wait until Feb when she gets here as the kids don't like to eat things that are hot like pepper jack cheese, etc... She was unconsciously reaching out for my hand while we were shopping. I was very surprised when she said she could feel deposits in her love bank and also withdrawals. A good sign I think.

I put a card in her backpack, she just called from Dallas and I told her to look in her backpack, she was just getting on the plane so I may have to wait until she gets to OKC for her response.

Mel, Thank you again for all of your help. Your responses are always on the money!

You know, Eagle, the timing of all this could not have been MORE PERFECT. She was with you in a wonderful environment when her affair crumbled before her eyes. I bet the earth shifted when she was really convinced that loverboy had a GF. And there you were to catch her fall like a KNIGHT.

It will be interesting to see how she reacts when she gets back into that environment. I am sure hoping she turns to you.

You and me both. Thank you Mel

Chuck

We talked last night after her GF left, GF picked her up at airport and brought her home. She was OK last night just tired. She liked her card and thanked me for it, didn't say it was over the top. This morning seemed a little distant but still pleasant. She said she had a great time with the kids, I said I was glad and I saw some progress, all she said was yes. Seems strange, but you never know. I told her the neighbors were sorry they didn't get to say goodbye, she said she would talk to them when she came home in Feb. Discussed Christmas shopping, and cash flow, she will finish next week. She is also looking at coming home for MLK weekend as it is a 3 day weekend.

That's it for now. Comments always welcome.

Chuck

Just remembered, during our R discussion Saturday I said I thought that her turning point was when she kept after me about staying in the AF another year, I told her that if she did it was a deal breaker, she asked what that meant and if it meant she needed a lawyer, I said yes. This happened in June or July, I don't remember the exact date, but it was right after she found out she didn't get promoted. When I brought this up she said yes it was a major turning point and had hurt her deeply. I asked her why she didn't try to talk about it then and try to negotiate a deal, she said she was so afraid she didn't want to discuss it. I said I was having a very abd week, the kids were about to kill each other and then she brought up the stay seperated to get promoted thing and I just went over the top, also told her I thought I ahd been depressed for a couple of years. She said she thought the same thing as things weren't getting done around the house (an observation she made while home on leave) also the stress of looking for a new job and then taking the job here in AL, making the move by myself etc... After this conv she started to change her attitude.

She also told me all of her defenses were down and later told me she was feeling her Love Bank receiving deposits and withdrawls and trying very hard to limit withdrawls. She also said when her Love Bank was half full we would be having a very serious talk.

Do you think this was a good thing or bad?

Sorry for not posting for a while.

Last Thursday was a very good day all went well. Friday she hit one of my triggers and all went down the tubes. We exchanged emails and she started responding. She also has been trying to call me at work during the day, between patients. All good. She opened up during the email exchanges and we were able to get a few things squared away.

She has come to the conclusion that what she was trying was not working and causing me pain and decided to try the MB way (my way) she seems happier. She also said she is thru punishing me, but still doesn't understand why I feel punished. I asked her to put her rings back on her ring finger, she did, I asked her where the family, I and our M stood in her priority list as her actions did not match her words. Now her actions show we are at the top, still competing with the AF for #1, but running neck and neck.

She is looking forward to our Christmas visit and working M in person with me, reading LB's. I asked about the ILYs as I had looked at previous emails and why they stopped so abruptly, she said she was confused and didn't want to confuse me anymore than she already had. I said I would like her to start ILY again and get back into the habit, again she said OK.

SF over Thanksgiving was miserable, I asked why as we had always enjoyed it, I also asked if she felt she was betraying OM, she said yes, I couldn't help but laugh and say "How F'd up is that? You betrayed me with him, he has a GF, took advantage of you, tried to break up our M, and you are trying to be loyal to him? Think about what you just said, do you see how screwed up that is? I have known you 20+ years, been married to you 17.5 years, have a marriage license, have been loyal to you for almost 4yrs while you were away in the AF, have done a great job (her words not mine) raising our children in your absence, and you tell me this. Have you lost your mind?" She then said she was sorry, obviously her approach wasn't working (hedging her bets in my opinion, thinking after an undetermined amount of time if things weren't better she would go abck to OKC to OM) and she needed to try something different. I said "as I have told you before, in order for you to see any results you must be focused on the task at hand, without distractions, ie... hedging your bets, put forth a maximum effort. She said she will work on me, put forth 110%, let her feelings ride for a while and see how that works. So far she seems much happier, more pleasant to talk to, has stated again that I am making deposits, and if she feels that I am going to make a withdrawl trying to block it and build more deposits. She is much more positive and when I asked her to do an NC letter she actually said she would consider it while we are there for Christmas.

She aslo told me I knew what she wanted (D), I told her I dont do D, but I do do MB and rebuilding M and Family. I will not discuss D period. She was a little stunned to say the least and I then asked her to work on improving her attitude as she has always been a very positive person, and since A she has been so negative. She said she would and I have already seen results.

All very surprising, but I am still cautious and keeping a wait and see attitude (actions rather than words, her request), but so far her actions are bearing up to her words. The true test will be the next 2 weeks.

She is also lurking occaisionally and is considering posting in the near future.

Sorry this is so long, butI had to get to a good place before I could post this.

Thank you all Mel, Orchid, MM, Fh and others for helping me through this.

Please continue to post to me and offer your very wise and sage advice. All of you are great! Again Thank you!

Chuck AKA Eagle15

Bum for Mel, Orchid, Mortarman

Well, the holidays went well, but now, this morning she has stated divorce is the only option. I thought things were progressing and some progress was shown. Obviously she duped me into spending the holiodays with her so she could see the kids. Now she says her only option is divorce. I can't take this any more!

Eagle,

Do you have any idea why this has occurred? Did something happen during your visit there? I guess OM has contacted her again hasn't he?

Make sure you explain to your lawyer you are entitled to 1/2 of 17.5/20 of her retirement. That will wake her up. I guess this also means you will have full custody of the children as well since you have been rearing them on your own for the last 4 years.

I don't think this is over, but I do think the A is still in play.

God Bless,

JL

Yes, I suspect there is contact again.

If she's on Tinker AFB, she's military or under military supervision. Why aren't you taking advantage of the Air Force's higher code of ethics regarding adultery? Have you exposed to her commander?

It's no use, I'm done. I have nothing left to give.

Thank you for all of your support during these past few months. You have all been of great help. My WW has given up and so have I. I can't reach her on phone, her 1st sgt supports her endeavors, I have no one to talk to, I am done.

Outflank the 1/Sgt. Contact her commander directly or go to the Inspector General. Failing that, call the base Chaplain. Expose this to those offices and they have no option but to take action.

What about Plan B? You should at least try it before totally giving up. But if you feel you have nothing left to give, I understand. And I support you in whatever you finally decide to do.

Regardless of what happens, remember that God is with you in this.

The Sq CC and the Group CC are aware. Noting has been done.

Now she is using MB principle against me. She has started reading the workbook and has been trying to bury me with it all day. I told her it was written from the perspective of rebuilding the M, but she is using it to press for D.

Help!

Eagle15,

Just curious... What MB principles is she using against you and how is she interpreting them?

Everything is an LB, pointing out every little LB there is. The work book is the basis and template for her. She searches it for anything she thinks she can use against me.

We went to OKC for Christmas, based on her promise to work on the marriage using MB principles. We came home on Wed, 4 Jan, all was good, she said we had made progress. Fri, 6 Jan she called first thing in the AM and stated that she was not willing to do anything, and the big D was the only option. Well I LB'd all over the place according to her and now that's it.

Eagle - the chain of command is there. Keep climbing until you get someone who will listen. Be a very squeaky wheel. Trust me, the armed services don't like chaos. Don't give up until you get someone who will do something about this.

Praying really hard for you guys. Keep fighting bro.

I find it difficult to understand how a Squadron CC and Group Commander can ignore allegations of adultery in their command. Have you made the notification in writing? If not,do so. If you have, and they are truly attempting to sweep it under the rug, contact the Inspector General's office on Tinker and document (a) the adultery, and (b) the failure of the appropriate commanders to take positive action. Do it in writing or in person.

Second, ignore her allegations that you are spreading LBs all over the place. Look at the definition of LB again, fix it in your mind so you can be able to tell her setting boundaries, etc., is NOT a LB.

It's been a few days since I've posted, so here is what is happening.
Sunday we worked on an NC letter. I thought we negotiated via POJA and agreed on teh final product. She delivered it to her 1st Sgt for delivery to OM, he asked if she wrote it, she said no I did, so he was skeptical and hasn't sent it yet. I talked to him last night, explained how the final letter came to be and he said that wasn't what he was told. I recommended he come to MB, read about adultery and marriage recovery, and that he could direct anyone else he had the same problem with to the site right away as the sooner you get here after dday the better. He will be looking at the site today then calling her in to find out why he only got a small part of the story. I offered to email him copies of her original choice (copied fromhere) of NC Letter and my original choice to compare with the actual signed letter he has so he can see how much I gave in the negotiation of the letter. He said he didn't need to see all of that. so here are the letters.

Her choice:
OM,
I want you to know that out of respect for my husband and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk with you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BH did not deserve. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

WW



OM,
I want you to know that out of respect BH and our children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk with you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BH did not deserve. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. I have told BH everything. I will tell him if you contact me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

WW


My Choice:

OM,

I have behaved in a selfish and inconsiderate way that has resulted in much pain to my husband BH and our children and family. I know that marital reconciliation with my husband is the right thing to do, but will never fully repay the heartache I have caused.
I love him and want things to work out so we can have our family together again, and realize all of our dreams together. To protect him, I have decided to break off all contact with you for the rest of my life. All things considered, I think it is best that I never contact you for the rest of my life and I expect you to never contact me for the rest of your life. This is final!
This decision, this promise to Chuck to not ever contact you in any way, direct or indirect, is for life. I am so sorry for what I have done to my husband and my family. I ask that you respect my promise and never seek to contact me. I will refuse any such attempts to contact me and notify BH immediately.
I am trying to do the right thing and set my family and my life straight. I have been completely honest with BH about everything. He knows everything. The selfish and inconsiderate damage that I have caused can never be fully repaired but breaking off all contact with you is the first step towards the rebuilding of his trust in me. I hope that in time BH will learn to trust me again and that you will understand how wrong our affair was and the reasons for this letter.

WW

What the 1st Sgt has to send out:


OM,

I have behaved in a selfish and inconsiderate way that has resulted in much pain to BH and our children. I know that marital reconciliation with my husband is the right thing to do and what I need to do, but will never fully repay the heartache I have caused.
I want and need to work out the marriage so we can have our family together again. All things considered, I think it is best that I never contact you for the rest of my life and I expect you to never contact me for the rest of your life.
This promise to BH is to not ever contact you in any way, direct or indirect, for life. I am sorry for what I have done to my husband and family. I ask that you respect my decision and never seek to contact me. I will refuse any such attempts to contact me and notify BH immediately.
I am trying to set my family and my life straight. I have been completely honest with BH about everything. The damage that I have caused can never be fully repaired but breaking off all contact with you is the first step towards the rebuilding our family and his trust. I hope that you will understand how wrong our affair was and the reasons for this letter.

WW


She has lost quite a bit of creditability with her 1st Sgt by not giving him the full story of negotiation and POJA for the NC ltr. He will be talking to her today after looking over the MB web site.

He also told me last night that OM has moved on and is either getting out of AF or has an assignment. She doesn't know this yet, but will find out today from 1st Sgt.

I asked her last night if she wanted us to go to OKC and drive back here with her, we were using speaker phone and then kids were here as well. She said it didn't matter to her, big let down for the kids, I told her if she wanted us to go then let us know "I would love it if you and the kids would come out and drive back with me" would have been the best answer, I don't know or I don't care is not the answer the kids need to hear. So we are going to go and bring her home to AL.

Please comment as I'm starting to lose all hope.

From what I have read of MB, it could be a while, like several months or more, for your WW to finish her withdrawal. If the OM is being transferred, and they are taking steps to help you with NC, that is all to the good.

From the little I've read about your WW, it just sounds like she is still foggy and not willing to give yet. I think that is probably typical for an A that was forcibly broken off, as opposed to an A that had run its course and imploded on its own.

With the A broken up, there is lots of hope for your marriage, regardless of how either of you feels at the moment. Feelings are in continual flux. Just like they went, they can come back. Now that the A is over, you have lots of possibilities.

Thank you Neak. I appreciate you kind words of hope.

Eagle, is she still talking about divorce? But she is coming home, right?

I agree with Neak that she won't be too enthusiastic as she goes through withdrawal. Here is a great post by Suzet on withdrawal: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2686313

Mel,

Last time we talked about M she was dead set on the big D, that was Sunday, but she continued to negotiate the NC letter. To the best of my knowledge she is still coming home. I asked her last night if she wanted us to come to OKC and drive home with her, She said it didn't matter to her, big let down for the kids, I told her if she wanted us to go then let us know and "I would love it if you and the kids would come out and drive back with me" would have been the best answer, I don't know or I don't care is not the answer the kids need to hear. So we are going to go to OKC and bring her home to AL. Her meeting with the 1st Sgt today will probably cause problems as I believe he is going to tell her that OM has moved on with his life, has new GF, and is either gettting out of AF or being transferred (Permanent change of Station) PCSing. She will not take this well as she has always held the notion that he is patiently waiting for her.

The kids talked to her Sat night and let her have it with both barrels. Now understand that I have always encouraged my kids to speak openly and freely with me, I thought they had, until Sat night. They have discussed this situation together at quite some length and come to the conclusion that WW has completely lost her mind. They told her that working M, coming home and being a mother and W was a "No Brainer", why did she have to think about it? If she truly loved them as she keeps telling them why does she have to think about doing the right thing? Why can't she just do the right thing? No answer from WW, except that they sound just like me. I said "well for the last 4 years I ahve been the only constant in their lives, of course they are going to sound like me, I have been the only parental influence in their lives except for your short visits here and there." No comment from WW. Kids also asked why she tricked us over the holidays, told her that they would have preffered to stay in AL for holidays if they had known that as soon as we got home she would start demanding the big D again. Also told her if she tried to drive me away they would go with me and at that point would not want to see her again. They also asked her to stop hurting everyone, try being honest, and come home and be their mother again. Again she has to think about it. DS also told us that he has nightmares, constantly has butterflies in his stomach, and has a hard time concentrating in school. DD won't discuss any problems she is having other than to say she wants the BS to stop right now, wants WW to quit making excuses and do the right thing. Also asked WW what if she had only known a guy a week, exchanged emails and calls, only seen him twice and slept with him on second meeting, what would WW do to her? Response was discuss it and try to figure out why, DD raised BS flag and told WW she was not acting like a real mother should she would expect to be in a lot of trouble and why a double standard? No comment from WW. I knew the kids had strong feelings about all this, but didn't know how strong and how much they had come together discussing this or the conclusions they came to. Most of this was news to me. Of course in WWs eyes I had coached them. I always talk to WW about M issues in the MB Bathroom, well away from young ears, usually with fan running because I'm smoking like a chimney.

She has cancelled her retirement ceremony, cried to her commander and requested to cancel, he finally agreed. A bad move in my opinion, but I don't get a vote.

All still very confusing.

Wow, you have some amazing kids! Its pretty scary when a 13 yr old has more common sense than her mother. You have apparently done an excellent job teaching them right from wrong.

Anyway, I wouldn't be too worried about her divorce talk. I wager that it will blow over once she gets home. Just keep doing what you are doing and work on attracting her back.

I would certainly let her know, though, that she can welcomed and forgiven if she comes home and makes it right. Just imagine the enormous respect the kids would have for her if she did that. That would teach them what a strong character she really is if she demonstrated that she could change.

Mel,

This has been my other mantra the whole time. "You can teach the kids a valuable lesson about hanging in there, working hard to recover from a very bad mistake and make things right again if only you try hard enough and don't give up." WW thinks it's BS, kids already know it is the right thing to do.

Primary Manttra is "I DON'T DO DIVORCE, ONLY MB!"

She knows for a fact that she will be welcomed with open arms as long as she is willing to remain within the boundaries I have set, she agreed to that before the holidays, that is why we went to OKC. Then as soon as we got home she started up the Big D thing again. Dashed the kids hopes and mine. That is what got the kids to speak freely with her, they are no longer afraid she will not come home, would rather she not if she continues to want a D. Ending their pain at the hands of WW has over ridden their desire to have her back.

Mortarman and Longhorn,

Do either of you have the ability to confirm either amember of the AF PCS'ing or getting out/discharged?

No, sir, I do not. I've been retired 9 years and all of my peer group buddies are similarly retired.

Let me think for a bit on whether I could think of any way a third party might infer whether such orders exist.

Thank you Longhorn. I've been retired for 5 years and all my contacts have retired as well.

Sorry...I am Army so I cant help with the AF!

In His arms.

Do you have any of your wife's Leave and Earnings Statements? They would show the end of the current enlistment--I think. Darn, it's been a long time since I looked at one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Are you going to join her somewhere else or is she moving back to where you are? Either way, there should be some arrangements going on for transportation of household goods. You should already be aware of it if you and the kids are moving somewhere.

Eagle...

We have a really good friend that's a Captain in the AF, actually he's about to be promoted...to Major?...I think that's right, but I must confess that I don't know squat about the military...Anyway, send me the info that you need...my email addy is in my signature line...I'll pass it along to him...his wife just got out of an affair, he posted here for a while, so I'm sure that if he can, he'd be glad to assist...

Best,

Mrs. Wondering

Whatt I'm looking or is to confirm what her 1st Sgt told me. OM has moved on with his life has new GF and is either PCSing or getting out of AF.

She is flying in tonight, at my request. I am a little (alot) apprehensive and nervous after last weekend. She was demanding D, I LB'd all over the place, etc... Any ideas about how to handle this? She refuses to say if she has an agenda or just wants to have some quiet fun family time. This morning on the phone she was acting very strange, angry, upset, not feeling well... accused me of trying to control her, etc...

Help!

Longhorn,

She is definitely retiring, last duty day is 26 Jan 06, 2 weeks away. What I'm trying to do is confirm that OM has an assignment or is getting out of AF.

The kids and I are flying out next Friday to help with the packing of HHG and then driving her back here to AL. When I brought this trip up to her, at the kids request, she said whatever you want to do, I reminded her that she was on speaker phone with kids listening and a better response might be " I would love it if you and the kids would come help me pack and drive." She said yes you are right, but "Iwas just trying to not spend anymore money or tell you what to do."

I am still wary of her actions and concerned that when we get there she will pull the plug and we will have to amke last minute arrangements to fly back home. If that were tto occur I'm not sure what to do next, I do know that the kids would never want to see her again as this is one of their fears as well, especially after last Friday. She burst their bubble again and now they don't trust her at all.

Yeah, I'm sorry. I realized what you were actually thinking of about 3:00AM this morning. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I haven't been able to think of any way a third party could inquire into a member's status in this way. If I could get a quick look at his online payrecord, of course, I'd be able to tell you in about 3 seconds. That is, unfortunately, Privacy Act information, among other things, and if I tried to get some contact to take a look, I would probably be invited to spend the rest of my retirement at the lovely facility at Leavenworth.

I'm sorry, I just can't think of any way. Personnel will know of course, along with the Finance office. The HHG section at Transportation will even know (along with other base activities). They'll have copies of the orders in their files because the member will have begun making arrangements for a HHG shipment. But I can't think of a way to tap someone on the shoulder in those activities and ask the question.

Longhorn,

Thank you for your concern. I'll see if I can find another way short of calling his shirt. She's not very fond of me, especially after I called her about him breaking AF (CC) NC.

Eagle...

Check your email...sorry I couldn't really get the goods for you, I really did try...

Mrs. Wondering <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I checked and replied. Thank you for trying, I really appreciate it. Thank you for your prayers as well, I need all the help I can get.

Hey, just ran across this looking for something else. I don't know if it'll help at all, but maybe.

http://www.militarysearch.org/

Thanks Longhorn, I'll check it out.

Chuck

Well, she was here this weekend, pretty much ignored me. Kissed me 3 times over 3 days. We discussed some problems, one major one was her weight, she was a chubby kid, finally got to her target weight. I was aware she was dieting and she had lost weight, but not how much. I hadn't seen her in 3 to 4 months and when I saw her over 4 Jul weekend, instead of saying you look great, I was shocked at how skinny she was and asked her if she was OK, if she was planning on losing any more weight. I was worried about anorexia/bulemia. She said she had reached her goal, I then said you look great, but I was worried. Too late she was extremely pissed, but didn't say anything then. A month and a half later the A started. My Bday is 1 Aug, I received a great card from her around 10 Aug, A started around 26 Aug.

She is coming home 27 Jan, last duty day is 26 Jan. The reason she is coming home to work on marriage is we cannot afford to D, house payments, car payments, credit cards, etc... Also as stated by her before she will work on Family for kids, I may see some progress between us as she continues to try for kids. Who knows.

She showed no emotion when I told her about OM having an assignment and having returned to his GF.

She does show signs of trying, but as soon as she is away from the family she starts the D talk again. Even the kids asked her "What's up with that? Every time we are away from you you start ranting and raving about D?" She had no answer for that, just I don't know.

She still refuses to acknowledge she is in control. Will not initiate anything. Always answers questions with whatever you want to do, which hurts the kids.

I guess I'm in for a long rollercoaster ride.

Comments and suggestions are gratefully accepted and requested.

Just talked to her. She has plenty of time to forward emails to friends, but can't answer an email from me. I asked why? No answer.

She's always telling me OM respects her for who she is, I had to raise the BS flag, I said you are a wife and mother first and foremost, obviously he didn't respect that or we wouldn't be in this mess. She said she didn't wnat to be my wife, she is a good mother, I said you haven't lived here for 4 years how do you know? Then I said so if I decide I don't want to be your husband it's OK for me to go out and do whatever I please? No! I then said in the bible it says when a man and woman marry two become one and she says that doesn't count because we are all individuals. Who knows?????

She says I have always held her down, never allowed her to have an opinion. I'm controlling and she's tired of that.

Found an email from another guy GI she doesn't think male friends are a problem. I have asked throughout our marriage that she not have these male friends without introducing me and I'd prefer they be married and we interact as a couple not independently. The email was signed by both me, not names or anything just me. Well I googled the guys name got his home phone and address and contacted his wife, she was upset, asked me to send the emails. I did, explained my sitch to her and she called WW. Hopefully this is over. When I confronted WW she was very defensive and stated that she would not give up her friends for me. I don't know what to say.

I also found her rings and necklaces on the sink this morning after DD told me about them. Called WW and asked about them and if she wanted them, No, but bring them tomorrow night when the family flies into OKC. I said if you say you want them I'll bring them, if not I won't. All she can say is please bring them, not I want you to bring them or I want them. She is constantly playng symantics with words.

She still says she wants D, but doesn't want to lose all we have built up over the years, is very mad about me contacting the emailers W as he is in Fl in training for Iraq and she is at their base in Ca. He goes to Iraq 23 Feb and WW was planning to send a care package. The W in Ca nixed that idea.

What do I do???

Help!!!

The kids and I are flying out tomorrow night to help WW with the movers and drive back to AL. She still says she wants D, but can't afford it, so is willing to come to Al to try working on Family for kids, M may see some side benefits, but not her primary concern. I ahve tried to get her to post here, but she feels MB principles are too elementary and won't work. She says I'm too controlling and judgemental. OM accepted her for who she is, I said first and foremost you are wife and mother, so obviously he didn't accept or respect that. Made her mad and she says that was a BIG LB.

I don't know what to do. The kids have about had it with her and think and have told her she has lost her mind and she is not the mother that they have always known and loved. They are angry that she is destroying the family and their lives.

Bump for some of the experts!

BUMP for the Pros I need advice

Eagle, I'd say your big chance is coming up. Once she's actually living in the home, a more effective Plan A can be applied.

Were you ever able to nail down whether the OM was actually ‘moving on’ as the 1/Sgt said?

Saying she can't afford to divorce is a strange thing for her to say. I was flat broke and got a divorce. It isn't THAT expensive to process the paperwork. Sounds like a way to justify her doing something she won't admit to herself she wants to do. Same with the talk about coming to work on the marriage 'for the kids' talk. They might be small rays of hope. I'll be optimistic as long as I can. My thoughts are with you.

Hi Eagles,

I am sorry for the turn in your sitch. Obviously your WW is still very much in the fog and there must have been contact with OM2 (?) and most likely OM1. This is not good.

However, since you will be with her shortly, I would not do anything drastic to alienate her. Be there for her when she comes, make sure that NC has been established on all fronts, and see what happens. My guess is once NC is really established she will slowly turn around. Unfortunately, putting up with crap from a WS is usually what a BS has to endure in the beginning of recovery (or as some might say, in the prelude to real recovery). Be vigilant and firm in your boundaries when she comes back. But at the same time, be the best husband you can be with as little LBs as possible. In short, be patient but alert.

Last, be sure to ask God for help and guidance. He is greater than your problems, you know.

Best

Longhorn,

Thank you for your encouragement. I need all the help I can get right now. I think she is finally getting into withdrawl and it's driving her even more nuts. The kids think she has completely lost her mind. I paln on PLAN Aing the h311 out of her, the kids are also primed and ready to help. They have had enough of her stuff and told her so, said if you force D from dad we don't care if we ever see you again. You will have finally completely destroyed our family and our lives.

I haven't been able to confirm the 1st Sgts comments about OM, but I think part of WWs issues right now are that she finally got the word about it from the shirt. She has acted strange since Tueday, first day back to work after this weekend here.

Affording the D is a problem for her as she doesn't want to lose our house in FL. I ahve told her I will fight for the kids with every penny I can find. She contacted a lawyer and told him it was for irreconcilable differences, lawyer found that strange after almost 18yrs of marriage. My lawyer says go for adultery, AL has very strict laws concerning adultery and it would be easy to get kids, CS, etc... She has no savings right now and after retirement will be looking for a job. Sooooo there will probably be a month or so of no income from her side except her retirement check.

UVA,

I don't believe there has been any contact with OM1, OM2's wife talked to her Wed night and I think that is over as well. I'm hoping that when she gets settled back into family life she will start to come around and out of fog and withdrawl. She fought NC letter up until last week, kept saying AF forced NC was enough, but she couldn't get OM out of her mind and I believe was still in the A metally. Now I believe she has finally been hit with the cold hard fact that OM1 has moved on, NC letter has been delivered, she says she has no choice but to come home and work on family for kids. We shall see.

Please keep sending the advice and encouragement, I really do need it as I am very controlling according to her (I used to be an Air Traffic Controller 6yrs at Edwards AFB, most complex AFB in the AF)

Thank you again for your advice and support. Everyone on this board is great and life savers!

Well she's been home for a week, all she's done is clean house and suck up to the kids, very little communication with me. We only talk about issues concerning the kids, finances or house. She offered SF once " If you want sex you better get it now as my period will be here this evening or tomorrow." I said no, the next day I initiated a nooner, not very satisfying, she cried after we were through and wouldn't talk. I don't know what to do. I've asked about MB principles, my boundaries, she says yes we will discuss tonight and each night she gets wrapped up in kids and TV and nothing happens.

Where to now???

Is she still in contact with the OM?

No no contact with the OM. She is just hard headed.

What is her plan, Eagle?

Right now she's waiting to see if she can make me blow up. Then who knows. I've given her another copy of my boundaries and asked her when she thinks she will start working on the marriage using MB principles. She says she has to re-read my boundaries and we will go from there. She hasn't worn her rings since Friday before new years and won't wear them until she is ready. All things we were doing before new years are not being done now. Don't know what all this means, but she is definitely avoiding conflict and R talk big time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Eagle,

She is very likely in withdrawal, and while she is she won't be worth shooting. She surely won't want nor will she work on the marriage. What you do is hang in there, treat the kids well, be civil to her, and let the withdrawal pains do their thing.

I am thinking it will be a month or so home before you see a glimpse of the W you had. If you are in a hurry you can always file and be done with her, but since that is not what you want, the Time and Patience, T&P, are the watch words.

God Bless,

JL

Melody & JL,

Thank you for your wise words and sage advise. I'll keep posting as progress or lack of is made.

Thank you again.

I helped WW register on this site this morning. I don't know if she will post, but I believe she will at the very least read. She is Eagle15Tooo.

Eagle,

That is great news. I do have a question is your name derived from the fighter, F-15? A sweet aircraft for sure. I will look for your W's post if she decides to post.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Yes it is from the F-15, a very sweet aircraft indeed. After 24.5 yrs in the AF it was and still is my favorite.

5 years ago WW actually got to take a ride in one at Eglin AFB, FL, got her Mach 1 certificate. The O-6 (Col) who was her pilot took her out over the gulf of Mexico and put the coals to it if memory serves they went mach 1.3, he gave her a certificate as proof she has been over mach 1. A great day indeed.

I was TDY shortly after her flight and stopped at every base between Va and FL and finally found one of those painted wooden models on a pedestal for her as a reminder of her flight.

About 18 years ago I flew in a T-38 with an O-5 Vice Commander of the test pilot school at Edwards AFB, Ca. An excellent ride as well. We were a flight of 2 and had dog fights over the desert for about an hour and then back to base for pattern work. A great day as well.

WW is now going to use the bible to help build her case for D and to try to get me to understand how unhappy she is and has been "for over 10 years". She is apparently bound and determined on D. I don't know what to do now.

She has also brought up the fact that during my previous marriage I had 2 affairs. I have never thought of having an affair during this marriage, I learned my lesson well in my previous marriage, but was unable to stop her from having an A. I dated WW before I was divorced, XW had already left Fl for Ca, papers were filed, but she refused to sign them until a year later. Meanwhile XW was shacked up with a guy in Ca.

Eagle,

Makes me wonder if she does not want to be a mother as well as not wanting to be a W. Your children have already expressed their feelings about this. I have a feeling that W's pushing forward is more about NOT losing face or looking like she caved in, although having an A surely doesn't put one in the best of lights does it?

I don't know what to tell you. She knows she had the affair, and she knows she has failed as a W and a mother. No need to educate her, just be kind, friendly, and firm.

God Bless,

JL

Last night she went over the bible verses, brought up the fact that we had per-M sex, I was still married, but waiting for XW to return signed papers, we were in FL, XW icn CA, etc... I was left with the impression she wanted to invalidate our M due to this. I asked about all the years we've been together, etc... No answer. I just don't know what to think. She still see's D as only answer. Also told me last time we had SF, she cried (as always since A), I didn't ask what was wrong, I failed the test of standing by my word to help her and talk to her when she is in distress. I did lay there and hold her, stroking her hair, just didn't ask the question I already knew the answer to. Problem here is if I would have asked, she didn't offer any info, just waited for me to ask, she would have said "I have no feelings for you and do not desire you, that is why I'm crying." I already know this, it kills me to hear it, she says she is practicing PORH and I need to get used to it, I say she is using PORH to LB as well as not protecting me. We are in a stand off. I don't know what to do.

WW has started posting under Eagle15Tooo. She hasn't seen the replies she's gotten, but they are very good and I hope they help her. Thank all of you for your time and support. Please keep the advice coming as I need it.

Thank you

Bump

Hi. Glad to see you on your own thread. You can help us try to support your wife by staying off her thread and not commenting on it. The point of this board is to let folks be heard and helped.

Don't worry if her facts aren't "correct".

Not a problem.

JL,

Are you still out there??? With all the hoo haa going on and ML, Pep, and Lem not posting I just wanted to know if you were still here. I do hope so. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you,

WW is posting as Eagle15Tooo <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Eagle,

Yes, I am here but sporatically. What can I help you with?
I believe I posted at least once to your W, but have sort of lost track of it. I'll look around for it.

Look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Things are still pretty much the same as D-Day, although more settled. She is trying more, hugs, pecks, cuddling, SF if I ask. SF is still a problem, I would get more input from a pound of liver. It just isn't what I would like or was even used to in the past.

Had a large trigger this morning watching Look Who's Coming to Dinner, new version with Bernnie Mac. Towards the end he sings a song to his wife, now I've seen this movie a few times before, always thought it was hilarious, but sitting next to WW and his W says "I'm not looking" and then he starts with "You'll never find a love like mine". That was it I had to leave, she didn't seem to take much notice or care.

Worst trigger so far though. Any Advice?

Thank you for your help, talk to ya soon.

I think your liver comment might be a DJ. It is very hopeful that she is even doing the SF thing. Most in withdrawal refuse. So I hope that you appreciate at least her effort.

Not meant as a DJ, just my opinion, truthn as I see it, PORH practiced and applied the way she practices and applies.

When compared with past SF, current SF just doesn't measure up. If I wanted to get ugly about it, it would be very easy. For the record SF Pre-A was always very good, both very involved trying like ****** to satisfy. Now, her commnets "you get off all is good for you, I cry because I have no desire for you." Past statement "I feel like I am betraying OM by having SF with you." Talk about a Mind F*** for me.

Also her statement OM accepted her for who she is, Wow ROFL, I thought she was first and foremost a wife and mother, so when I said that I get no response, also said "If he did accept you for who you are he should have run in the other direction as fast as he could, as your words "he knew I was married and had children", so obviously he didn't accept you for who you are, just looking for a piece of A$$."

Comments???

Effort at SF is appreciated and acknowledged. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Whose side are you on? I continually advise the WW's here to keep up the SF. It's very important. Your wife is in withdrawal and probably feels like not having SF at all, and you compare her to a pound of liver. YIKES!!!!

ouch!! Will ya please quit taking shots at the OM, Chuck? She was jilted and lied to and eventually will come to the conclusion that OM was a sleazebag. But, she will NEVER come to that conclusion if she is busy defending him! So, please back off and don't bash the OM.

Secondly, she is going through a very normal WITHDRAWAL. That takes around 6 months. You have the added problem of a long term seperation to overcome. So your best bet now is to be PATIENT, avoid lovebusters and do your BEST to meet needs. She won't let you meet most of her needs now, but she will warm to you as she withdraws. Here is Suzets thread about withdrawal.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2686313

Have yall taken the emotional needs questionaires?

She should have been in withdrawl for over 4 mos, maybe I'm missing something here, but when we brought her home ater her retirement she has acted very much like a victim and martyr, and still does. For the record she is neither!

I have carried the burden of keeping this family together for almost 4 years while she finished her AF career. I have offered to quit my job and move to where she was her: "that would be financial suicide" , but having an A and seeing D as the only solution is not "Financial Suicide", treating me like some *** off the street is supposed to make me feel better?

Waiting 4 years, keeping everything familiar for her, trying to avoid just this type of situation, and this is the payback I get??? I have carried the burden of this marriage while she put career first, for 4 yrs. I have raised our 2 children alone during this time, moved from our home in Fl to Al due to job change, alone, bought her a house in OK, put 60K of my inheritance into it so she would be in a good neighborhood and safe. She is very mad that we have sold that house. I want my cash so if I need to pay a lawyer I can, if I need to fight for custody of my children I can and will win or die trying!

To answer you question "who's side am I on?" I am on my side and my children's side, definitely not a WWs side. I have taken more abuse from her than I ever did from my XW and she could give lessons to some of the meanest WSs.

I have been told by WWs 1st Sgt I needed to watch what I say because some words/statements can't be taken back, well what about WW, no one tells her anything except my MC who told her she needed to start SF, now she won't go talk to him because she see's it as a boys club or GOBN thing, not a healing thing even though she has read the same thing here and in her MB books.

She has wasted 4 mos doing things just for eyewash so she can say I've done it, so she can test me, so she can say "look, I've tried" but she can't apply what she's read or learned so we are back to square one. She's here, so is the couch, end table etc...

Sorry for this long rant, but I am very frustrated and ahve to stop before I really get Ramped Up.

Mel,

We did the En questionaires in early Nov. Discussed them with the MC, that was when the SF thing came up and all H*** broke loose.

Sounds like your taker is wanting out. This is dangerous to your marriage. I know how you feel though. When my WH was talking about coming back, I told him not to count on me when he missed OW - he got himself into the mess, he could get himself out. We are now getting divorced.

Chuck, believe me, I understand your GALL. I understand your fury at the injustice. You have every right to be angry. I just hope you are unloading your rage HERE instead of where it will cause you damage.

But what else can you do about it? Can you exact your pound of justice from her and have it benefit you and the children? No, you can't. Your justice will come from riding this out as patiently as possible and waiting for the inevitable WAKE UP of your W. And she WILL wake up, Chuck.

I suspect that her withdrawal really started when she left the Army base and was truly AWAY frm the OM. So, in practical terms, her withdrawal began when she came home. Like Harley says, it is IMPOSSIBLE to withdraw while still seeing an OP at work. As long as she still worked there, she held out hope of the affair resuming and never withdrew. Now she is home and has really begun withdrawal.

So, hang tight. Come here and vent to us because we know exactly how you feel. Just keep reminding yourself that justice comes NOT from acting on your anger, but in being patient, understanding and KIND. So try not to vomit, ok? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Eagle,

Remember and repeat this over and over. Education is for people that are NOT brain dead. Your W is still taking orders from the "Mother Ship". There is NO USE in trying to educate her about OM, his values, her values, her behavior, and surely not her performance in bed. She does NOT WANT to know anything and certainly NOTHING you know.

So zip the lip <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and let the withdrawal continue. Eventually, there will be static between her and the Mothership and you will then have your chance. Until then, just be a good dad to your kids, be polite and caring, and expect NOTHING. It is very likely that if you do this you will get what you expect otherwise you won't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I put the smiley face on that last statement because I am laughing at you. I put it on because what I said was the truth and it seems so silly, but it is what it is, sigh.

So hang in there, don't discuss OM, you already know all you need to know about him, and her opinion of him is not relavent to your decisions. Her opinion will change.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

Believer, Mel, and JL,

Thank you for your advice. I really did need to vent and this was it. I really am trying to keep my trap shut or as I've said in the past, I am trying real hard to "Shut My Pie Hole."

After considerable thought I believe that the main cause of my frustration is she is looking for a job, all job offers are 10:30 PM to 7:00 AM, with the promise of day jobs opening in 3 - 6 mos.

Well if she had truly been working on the family as she has said, I could probably be comfortable with the jobs working night shift. Since she hasn't tried to stay within the boundaries I've set, she hasn't had time to read them??? I am not in a comfortable place, all I can see for the near future is more excuses, especially if she is working a mid shift.

She worked a mid shift in OKC as a part time job, Fri & Sat nights, so any effort expected over the weekend was shot. During the week her girlfriend and job came 1st, shopping, making cookies for the clinic, working on a billboard christmas card for the base, going to craft fairs, etc...etc... So I do feel like the last 4 mos was a waste and any effort she put in was strictly so she could say "look what I've done, now quit talking about it, or I'm here aren't I?"

We were having SF and she said she was starting to enjoy it again, a little. Then the after Christmas/New Years I want a D because I have no feelings for you thing and we were back at D-Day. Cold as ice, although I do see some thawing, no reaching out from her, if I ask I get attitude. It just goes on and on.

I will definitely stifle my taker, keep my pie hole shut, and try to be more patient. I would just like to know what she's thinking, wants, anything, any info from her as to where we are where she sees us etc... would help.

Thank you agian for listening to my rambling vent.

Thank you again for all of your advice and help. All of you are a Godsend!

Mel, I am so glad you are back, I know this sounds funny, but I did miss your advice and 2 X 4s. Thank you!

Are you working? Doing separate shifts is not a good idea. I hope that she is not so deparate for a job that she will just take anything.

Yes I'm working, I'm a GOV contractor here in Huntsville, My company moved me here earlier in the year when my contract in FL expired and did not get renewed.

I work 7AM - 4PM, M - F.

Small world. I work for the government in contracting.

Okay - working a different shift would not be good right now. Even in strong marriages, different work hours cause a lot of havoc.

My thoughts exactly.

She is having to face a lot of life changes right now, getting out and retiring, working on her marriage. I'm sure it is very difficult for her.

But I would try to talk to her about working the same hours. There must be other jobs with better hours.

There are, but none as an X-Ray tech, she would have to take something she may not be experienced in. Something that would pay a lot less. I told her she didn't have to work after we sell the house in OKC, but she says she has to and only wants to work in her chosen profession. I can't fault her for that, but would be more comfortable if she had actually worked at M for the last 4 mos as she said rather than doing the eyewash thing.

If we were starting recovery, or I felt safe, or even if she would wear her rings (the very least she could do) I might feel more comfortable about it, but, alas, I don't get a vote, haven't since she started this whole mess. AND she still doesn't feel like she's in control. I couldn't help it last time she said this, and both being AF retired, I had to say "so if you are not in control, and obviously I'm not in control, otherwise we wouldn't be in this mess, then I must assume that we are all thrust and no vector!" i.e....someone is mashing the gas pedal or firewalled the throttle, but noone has the steering wheel or is holding the stick. Totally out of control!

Has she looked into a job with the Federal government? X-ray techs are in high demand. You can check the web sites, and they are looking for them all over the country and world. I don't know if the pay is high enough for her, but the benefits are good.

Checkout usajobs and donhr.navy.mil.

The nice thing about the Navy site is you can put your resume on-line and forget about it. They will contact her.

She has registered with USAJOBS, but Redstone Arsenal is the only place close.

Apparently the way things work here and, from what I gather, at most hospitals is they move personnel around from within and then hire for the least desireable hours.

Now, having said that, again I don't know for sure only what I've seen, heard from HR folks, and what WW has told me, I am uncomfortable with the job situation based on where we are in trying to get her to commit to rebuilding our marriage and family, or even work on it a little. She is rereading SAA as I feel she didn't get anything out of it the first time, if she did then she is refusing to practice what she has read.

Some days it seems to take a Herculean effort to make even the tiniest step forward. She is showing signs of progress, but, and this is a very important but, only if we do not discuss the M, her A, or family, only day to day stuff, things about the kids etc... nothing really important can be discussed. Whenever I bring up the M or her A I get attitude, anger, she shuts down and walks away. She absolutely will not discuss anything, when I try, get frustrated, restate the facts, it's like Hiroshima, mushroom clouds over Chuck and she leaves the room, if we are in bed she gets up and goes into the LR to watch TV and we are back at day 1. She avoids conflict like I've never seen.

I was hoping we would be a little farther along than we are. I certainly didn't think her return home would be a setback to D-Day. But that is where we are, maybe a few days past D-Day, but not very far past. I also know if she reads this she will be upset, but sorry it's how I feel. It is my take on where we are.

I am very optimistic we can make it, but I just don't know if I have the patience anymore. My MC/IC told me, based on what I've said, he feels like she is trying to wait me out, that if she waits long enough she will wear me down to the point I will file and she will get her way. I have told her over and over "I don't do divorce, I only do MB!" I have also told her that if things get too crappy I will just leave and never look back, still no D, but no BH either. Also she won't know I'm gone until it is way too late as when I walk I will not return under any circumstances.. Same thing holds true for her, if she walks out it will be truly over, I will never want to see or hear from her again, absolute darkness, never a chance for recovery or reconciliation. She knows this to be true as that is how it is with my XW and DD21, I made efforts to remain in contact for many years, never got a return call, email, letter or card, so now it is truly as if they never existed, I will never see or talk to them again.

So this is where we are, I am hoping we have a road forward to recovery and I really can't tell you what she is hoping for because I really don't know and she won't say.

The navy job site is a better one, but if there is no Navy Hospital near you, it won't help. I look for jobs all of the time, and they always need X-ray techs all over the world. There seems to be a shortage.

As far as the rest, I still think she is very new in this, and is going through a lot of changes. I would just try to enjoy each other, and not talk about relationship for awhile.

Eagle,

The answer to this is simple. Don't talk to her about the M or the A. She is in withdrawal and talking about these things is like pouring gasoline on a fire. Step away, put the matches down <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, place the gas can a long way away from the matches and keep your hands where YOU can see them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, let her heal, and show her how the household can be, let her glimpse the vision of the marriage that you have.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks JL, just what i needed to hear. Are you old enough to remember the guys who walked around with their hands in their pockets, leaned way back, and taking very large steps? Truckin' dudes??? Used to be me, from SoCal.

Seriously, I haven't been talking anything for over a week, I just can't take the flash bangs in the face anymore. Sooooooo I'm trying to stay cool, working at guy stuff around the house as well as domestic stuff. I had to vent here the other day or I would've vented to her. Sorry about that, to you, believer, and Mel. I just had to get that poison out of my system.

I just hope I can make it through spring as there is a possibility I can move back to FL, into our old house, making more money with the same company. I talked to her about it and all she said was the kids would love to go back to FL.

Thank you again.

When you are going crazy, come here and vent. We won't mind the pound of liver stuff, but I doubt your wife will find it amusing.

Where are you in AL? My bro is a surgeon, ortho in AL. There are nice places to live and a great hospital near them in Florence. Florence, Muscle Shoals is great place! My sister loves it there.

Incidentally my sis is opening a dress shop in your present city in a few weeks.

If your ww is medical, there are many growing opps in Florence/Muscle Shoals area.

She didn't, said it ot her a couple of months ago. Being Mil she has heard it before, but never applied to her.

I should have heeded the warning on the label: "Do Not Try This at Home, We are Trained Professionals. We are not responsible for your injuries. Your results may vary based on you speaking habits and the feelings and mood of the recipient."

Btw...it is pure alien when they use the bible to bolster an affair. pure hogwash!

Don't listen. Just smile, nod your head. And walk away.

When you dig into the OM...she will avidly defend him.

I have told my friends here, my xh's present affair wife, will use that as A TOY with which to lure my xwh back...she will say "Peach said this about me.." or something like that and pretend to cry or to be hurt. He'll get mad at me, and in that one blink of an instant...he will be UNITED WITH HER AGAINST ME.

Hmm...as of late, he's not even attempted that at all.

Just smile at ww when she says she will use hogwash against you. get a cheap notebook and document all she does. If she gets an attorney, get one too. but you can see thru this fog.

She is possibly menopausal? maybe? could that be something going on here?

I think it's hilarious how she said that om accepts her for who she is...who? a married mom and adulteress who will cheat on her husband? and this man wants to marry a cheater?

She is being USED BY OM...and doesn't see it.

Trust me...the OM is old enough to have heard saying "if they'll do it WITH YOU...they'll do it TO YOU"...

She is not to be reasoned with...the previous poster who gave you some good advice about that..Just learning I believe? Was RIGHT ON!

Well, when she makes the effort of SF, keep your mouth closed and enjoy what you can. I'm sure that it isn't easy for her either.

JustPeachy,

Thank you for your encouraging words. I always need them.

Believer,

Gotcha and WILCO (Will Comply) to your post.

Eagle - I just know that if any man ever compared my SF favors to liver, he would be out of "there" in short order.

I am sure that would be true. But practicing PORH the same way she does, does tend to leave a mark.

Before you get your 2 X 4 out please remember I do know what SAA, LB, & HNHN say about PORH and not using honesty as a LB. Her version of PORH is not the version I would normally use, but it does get her attention and I have been able to get her to see it is not the same. (I think she saw that anyway)

How about sitting back and staying in a good Plan A for another 30 days? Are you up to that?

Sure. I forget who has it in their sig, but "I have nothing to lose and everything to gain by fighting for my marriage."

We are in Athens, East Limestone County.

I think you and your wife are going to be fine. This is all new and changing for her. Give her a little slack. See if you can do some fun things together. She fell in love with you for some reason. See if you can bring back that man.

I'm here, always have been always will be.

Eagle,

You asked
Oh, Truckin, yes I do recall, But the Grateful Dead came well after my prime. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I was talking to someone the other day and subject of being in the military came up. I had a horrible flash, this year it will be 39 years since I was commissioned into the AF. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I cannot be that old. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And when your WW starts the fog babble, I suggest you start thinking "Do Da Day, I'm just Truckin along."

Hang in there Eagle, you can do this.

God Bless,

JL

She will be getting a job offer today to work 10:30 PM to 7:00 AM. She asked me what she should do I said I didn't know as I don't know what her plans are. She sai "Tahks A Lot", the asked the kids DS said no don't take it DD said she didn't care. I asked what her plans were again at 7PM she never said so I went to bed at 9PM and haven't heard anything yet.

I am thinking of tellling her to take it, at teh cost of being controlling, but we need the income. I will also take my place as the leader of the family and ahve her put her rings back on and start MB principles in earnest. Otherwise she can sit at home until the cows come home.

Suggestions are needed here, please chime in soon.

Thanks

Well, BAD NEWS!
My taker escaped this morning and ran rampant, is still running, but in a contained area.

It was a result of creditors calling yesterday, job offer, WWs lack of communication, inability to plan for the future, and my credit rating going down the tubes.

We went to Wal-Mart last night, she asked about the job offer coming today, I said I don't know what to tell you because I don't know where you stand as far as working on the M. I feel that we are way behind where we should be, actually back to D-Day time frame die to her lack of effort and desire. She got mad ans said thanks. (I took it as thanks for nothing) I also told here it was like when we were in Combat Comm, the CC made some very bad decisions based on bad info and no info from his senior NCOs and officers, the end result the whole squadron had to pay for these bad decisions, as in failed ORI, and the monthly training deployments that followed. I told her I needed some info to go on before I could say enthusiatically yes take the job or no don't. No information was offered. Soooooooooo

I asked this morning about the job offer and whether she was going to take the job (mid-shift). Was asked what I wanted her to do, and conversation proceded downhill rapidly from there.

I don't feel safe or comfortable, and don't feel she's doing anything to help how I feel. She feels that since she sleeps in the same bed, cleans house, gives in when I ask for SF, occaissionally kisses or hugs me without my asking, she is doing a great job at MB stuff, I stated I didn't think she was doing anything much and only if I initiated. I asked how much more destruction she wanted to cause and was financial ruin the final bit of destruction or was there something else she had in mind.

I really need to know where all this is going, "We'll just take it day by day" doesn't cut it when financial plans as well as family plans are concerned, even more so when I feel that I have to have a stash of cash for lawyers to defend a divorce and child custody battle. I know plans are nothing more than something to deviate from, but I don't think I can continue to proceed in an "all thrust no vector" mode anymore.

yesterday she asked me what she should do about the job offer and I gave her an alternative, I said I would rather support her and keep her working at MB stuff and rebuilding family and marriage rather than end up wasting even more time doing the day by day thing and then wasting money on lawyers, but I needed some assurances. No comment from her, this morning it was turned around as I changed my mind about her accepting the job (she apparently read it as I didn't want her to take it), so therefore financial problems were mine, not hers as she wants to work, but I won't make a decision and when I do I keep changing it. Again I said I had concerns and reservations about her working mids, as when she was working part time in OKC everything fell by the wayside because she was tired, mids sucked, she couldn't concentrate, she had no time for friends if she spent all her time reading MB.(my impression based on her actions, not necessarily her words) I stated my concerns, i.e...feeling safe and comfortable, no threat or worry about another A, she is actively and aggressively working to rebuild marriage and family using MB, knowing my boundaries and adhering to them, being transparent, committing to rebuilding family and marriage, NOT continuing the destruction of our lives, etc... Still no response only anger. Sooooooooooooo Here I go again on my own. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Chuck, what are we ever going to do with you?? I think its good that you are direct with her, but it must be done WITHOUT LOVEBUSTERS. A lovebuster is like a resentment, where you take the poison and hope the other person dies. They work against you!

I am aghast that you demeaned all her efforts to date, no matter how pitiful they seem. What she is doing is pretty good for where she is! She is bringing the body and I have every confidence that the mind will follow. I do think that she should be treated as a person who just went into withdrawal because she didn't seem to be in withdrawal until she came home barely a month ago.

And by making DEMANDS, you push her recovery further and further away because she is to busy defending herself to actively participate in her own recovery. So please lay off, ok? Go to her and tell her you are sorry and offer an olive branch.

Chuck, I know you are the guy on the front line and you see things that we don't see, but let me explain something. The things that you are desribing in her behavior are alarming TO YOU, but they are not to us. You know why? It is because this is a very NORMAL, ROUTINE pattern for a WS. This is how they ACT!

But the difference between my view and yours is that I have seen them come out on the other side. MANY TIMES. This is how they get to the other side. Thats why we are not alarmed about this. If you will please relax, stick to the program, put your faith in the Lord, this will all come out ok.

RELAX, my friend. That is an order! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mel,

Thank you and WILCO.

It just kills me though to see everything we've work for going downhill so quick. I hate it when the creditors are calling and knocking and my hands are tied. Since I've taken over paying the bills I haven't had anyone call and my credit rating went to 800, it's now probably around 300 and dropping like a stone. When I ask for information and get nothing, I feel like we are still in the "D is the only way out" mode.

Is the credit problem stemming from her unemployment? Or has she not been paying bills? I am a little confused on that end of it. Can you bring me up to speed?

I am currently looking for a job to help us pay some bills. Husband said that I’m trying to ruin us financially. We are used to having 2 incomes for the both of us.
Now that I’m only down to one I would like to get a job to help out.


We have discussed the fact that I have to get my foot in the door somewhere. I want a day job also, this job offer has come to me twice and a lady was switched to offer this job to me. The only shifts available right now are nights and weekends, we nixed the weekends because this is the only real time we have as a family. By taking this night job, I have offered to sleep 3-4 hours and hit this website and books in the afternoon and have family time when they get home.


I have rules that I have to follow, during the day I’m supposed to be on this website or reading the books. I’m only allowed to do housework when the kids get home. I do the cleaning while the kids do their homework. I have been doing this. The stuff arrived this weekend from OKC, so boxes are all over the house. I would like to take care of those, but I can’t. Husband would complain that I’m not following the plan and will eventually complain that I haven’t unpacked. That I’m not putting my things in the house, this has already been said and I expect it to happen again.


As for sex & affection goes I don’t want it at all, but I’m still having sex with him. Husband says it’s like a pound of liver and would get more if he masterbated. Well that’s fine with me, if he thinks that I’m doing anything then maybe I should show him what nothing really is. For no enjoyment from sex he sure does climax fast, which is fine with me. I have initiated hugs & kisses, cuddling, sleeping in same bed, holding hands, sitting close together and we have showered together.


I really enjoy being with the kids, we talk, play games and watch tv together. Husband says that I’m sucking up to them and being their friend. The kids don’t feel like this because I have asked them. Our son will either tone down or not say how he feels when we have family meetings. When the kids ask me to sit with them for a minute to talk I’m going to do it. Husband still gets his 2 hours during the week and 3 hours on weekends of alone time. This past weekend we had 6 hours together we napped, cuddled and cooked dinner together.

We have some good times, but for the most part I really don’t enjoy being around him. If I’m such a bad person, why does he still want to be with me? Why would want o be with someone who doesn’t want to be with you? If the tables were turned it would hurt like ******, but I don’t want someone that doesn’t want me.

As far as male friends, I have introduced many of them to husband and many of them he didn’t want to. I have lost quite of few friends (male & female) because of him.

I’m done for now.

It's because of my unemployment. I don't handle the money, husband does. This part of his boundaries.

I have tried to keep our bills down, I have tried to talk him to waiting on buying plane tickets when I would be home in a couple of weeks or the family would out to visit me.

Eagle15Too - Good to see you posting. A second shift job is very difficult even for a great marriage. Are you going to take it?

Hi MrsEagle, I sure do wish you would consider taking this excellent post and starting another thread so it could get the proper attention from other folks who are experienced. I bet many of them have felt exactly the way you do and could give you some excellent feedback. Justlearning, for one, has superb advice for withdrawing spouses.

I do want to understand why you don't enjoy being around him. What is he doing that is bothersome to you? Did you once enjoy being together?

You mention alot of RULES that you are required to follow and that you are only "allowed" to do housework at certain times. Allowed by WHOM? Have you agreed to these rules? Can you help me understand how this came to be?

Yes, I want the job to help with the bills. I still doing what I have to do for the family. Husband was pissed this morning, but did say I could take the job until a dau job comes through. I talked withe the kids and DD says yes take the job and DS does't like the idea that I won't kiss him goodbye for school, but he understands that I'm waiting for the day job.

Yes, I would like to hear about the "rules" too. MB is NOT a concentration camp where you are sent when you are a bad girl. What is up with all of this????

Melodylane,

I don't understand about other threads. I have agreed to the rules set by husband because if I don't we argue that I'm doing my part for the family.

We did enjoy time together before, because I turned a blinds eye to when husband would tell me not to do something. That's just how he is, I told myself and move on. I have that I don't have to always please everyone else. I have discovered courage, confidence and finally in my skin except when it comes to husband he breaks down again.

Mrs Eagle, if you go to the top of the page and click the "post" button, you can start a new subject that will be all your own. With your own thread, it would get the proper attention and the proper folks could devote themselves to helping YOU. But they won't see you down here at the bottom of Chuck's thread.

Mel and E-wife - I bumped hers to the top.

I gotcha. What would you rather be doing that you think would be more effective? See, your marital recovery needs to be a MUTUAL effort that you both entusiastically agree upon. What do you want to happen?

Never mind, I didn't realize that you had your own thread already. It would be nice to take this discussion there so you can get some personal attention.

Chuck, I just read her thread and I have an idea what the problem is. I don't think she feels like an equal in this relationship, but as a kid who must follow orders, rules, and is "allowed" to do things. How galling for an adult woman to endure. I would be in full bolt rebellion personally. I would do everything in my power to undercut you because I would be in DEFENSE MODE.

Not only would such an atmosphere cause me to be resentful and defensive but it would KILL any sexual desire I had. She sounds like she has reentered a prison and wants to REBEL. And the only way she knows how to REBEL is withhold the things she knows you want the most: a sincere committment to your marriage.

Can I make a suggestion? Marriage Builders materials are wonderful for a marriage, but when they are used as a baseball bat over the head of a recovering WS, they are downright destructive. And that is what I see happening here. I see you going beyond even educating to her, to the point of setting RULES. A major lovebuster!

It is for that reason, I would suggest dropping the "rules." Let this play out like it should, and INSTEAD put your main focus on your treatment of her. Elevate her her to a FULL partner in this marriage. I think if you do this, she may come to WANT to work on your marriage and not feel like she is a prisoner at the point of a gun.

It is like a vicious cycle. The more you try to control, the more she resists, which causes you to control more, and brings on more anger. Stop the cycle by treating her differently.

Well, we just lost about 3K a month due to her retirement, credit cards high due to frequent trips back and forth since D-Day. Prior to A she was going to apply for jobs 6 mos out and most likely be able to start work right after coming here, she just started to apply for jobs since her arrival. Our original plan was to pay off bills, install pool here, and have another garage built. Now, since she keeps howling for D, I won't do that until I get a good feel for the direction we are going in the marriage, also I refuse to pay off debt and let her off the hook for her fair share in the event of D, i.e....protecting my resources for the family.

I had to trash all previous plans due to her demand for a D and the need to protect myself and the kids financially.

Upon closing on the sale of the house in OKC, no later than 28 Feb, I will have the cash to pay off bills, but very strongly feel the need to keep that cash in reserve for legal fees. So I am at a stand still as far as future financial planning and am either going to have to pay off everything or at least quite a bit to get us under an amount that can be handled with my income or suffer through it.

To me it's a connundrum, where your help and the help from others here becomes invaluable is, not being in the midst of it all you can look at it with a clear head and sharp eyes and provide valuable and much valued advice. I am definitely too close and focused to be able to see the forest for the trees.

I hope this makes sense and I really hope you can point out the forrest to me. WW can't or won't do it.

I agree with Melody. Also how can your wife have confidence in the marriage when you are putting everything on hold until she commits? I'm not telling you to put in a pool, but you will need to pay your bills and maintain your credit, no matter what.

Mel,

I got ya and understand. What she is talking about rules is I set boundaries, she agreed to tehm before Christmas, they were based on what Not_so_Unique had posted on one of her threads. I will post a copy when I get to the house. I have not enforced them as she has read them a couple of times, but doesn't know what they said. A lot like talking to a brick wall.

I was asked to not post on her thread and have not. I don't mind her posting on mine or even reading it for that matter just so long as she can remember that most of my thread is venting and an expression of my true feelings.

I would love to see some real progress, I'm a charge ahead kind of guy. When she says I've controlled her ask her for specifics, I have and she can't remember. I will go into more detail later, I jsut got called into a meeting with our customer.

Chuck, can't there be a middle ground? Where you keep a cash reserve and pay bills to current status? I understand your need to protect yourself and agree with your thinking. But you still have to pay the bills regardless of whether you get D or not. However, doing it this way HURTS your entire family by damaging your credit score.

And it isn't an effective leverage to get her to back off her D threat.

I'm not using it as leverage, just going by what my lawyer told me a D would cost, then an estimate of custody battle. Due to the properties involved, 1 less now, but still 2 in different states, plus children, it gets expensive.

I could pay all the bills off, I have been paying way over minimum since I've been doing the bills. Taking a 3K cut in monthly cash flow does tend to put one behind the 8 Ball.

If she would show anything concrete I would press and pay all, but as long as it's a "day by day, tiny steps" thing I can't push 20 - 30K into it only to have to spend the rest on lawyers.

I am my only support, parents are dead, siblings don't have a lot to help out with a D, I have been beat over the head with a D so often since D-Day, I am not willing to give her even the slightest bit of financial help only to have to eat it as a "lesson learned" I learned that lesson in my last D. She, on the other hand has her mother who would probably take a 2nd on her house to make sure her daughter is happy. Other than that she has said she will not get involved and WW needs to do what makes her happy.

Sometimes I think it would be better to cut an run, minimize losses, and move on, but I can't do that to my kids. If I leave I will become a black hole in space and my kids don't deserve that, but I can't be with them either as it would be a long term trigger for me.

I could start over from scratch, but to me that is accepting even more punishment for something I had no control over. I have been in the WS position in my last marriage and know, from a male's POV, what is involved, but apparently from a female POV, it is very different.

Yes I can cave and put every penny I have into becoming solvent, and when she actually does file for D I will be even more in debt and she will get away scott free from any debt except legal fees. Either way I lose and for what, her weaknesses and indiscretions? Her desire to punish me for transgressions unknown to me?

Honestly where can I go from here? Yet again she is in control and has turned me into a smoking hole that the MOAB would be proud of. Where is she? Coming out of this smelling like a rose. Yet she doesn't see where she is in control, what she desperately wants, hence the "All thrust and no vector" comments.

H*** she won't even throw me a bone, but expects me to do all the work. I am tired, I've been doing all the work, carrying the load of the family, now the load of an A, I need a break! She can give me a break but refuses.

Controlling is telling her I don't think sky diving is a good idea, why, you have 2 children at home, a 3 and a 5 year old.

Flying in a helicopter with a bunch of army guys is never a good idea.

I'm tired and I don't feel like country dance lessons right now, my workload at work along with my TDYs are too much right now.

And the one that has always caused me problems, I really don't think it is appropriate for you to have all these male friends, most of whom are single.

So from my POV that is what she call controlling. There is probably more, but I can't think of any others right now. Those are the ones she beats me over the head about. I felt I was trying to protect her and our marriage, obviously a waste of time.

This is the boundaries letter I provided to my W.

WW,

You said the chaplain said the we must set boundaries, well here are my boundaries. Even though you are trying only for our kids, I hope you will agree to these boundaries.

What It Will Take

1. A no contact letter, explaining that you will not communicate with him again—ever. No loopholes. No contact for the rest of your life. Period. No defending him period! [color:"red"]DONE
[/color]

2. Become a wife and mother again, no matter what the cost to your “FEELINGS’ and whether you have any “FEELINGS” or not. Stop hurting me and our children.

3.• Become completely honest. Our marriage will not survive further deception. This not only includes not lying to me or the kids, but means giving me the whole truth, not just parts that will make you look good, or avoid confrontation, no omissions of any parts of the whole story. No lies, no evasion, no covering, just the full and complete truth.

4. Continue to keep me informed of your daily schedule, routine and movements, stop complaining about it, you volunteered to do it.

5. Carry your cell phone with you at all times. Call me if you are going to be late or have a change in plans, be completely transparent. Call me if you are awake in the middle of the night, sometimes just talking helps. After you move here wake me if you are awake and PLEASE TALK TO ME!

6. Lose your bad and negative attitude and develop a positive winning attitude about us, our family and rebuilding our marriage.

7. Get used to doing things that you feel make you miserable right now, as you get into the habit of doing these things you will become more comfortable with them and maybe just maybe you will learn to enjoy them as much as you used to.

8.• Commit to marriage counseling with me and individual counseling, whether by phone or in person. After all this trauma, we need every possible advantage in order to recover our marriage.

9.• Keep in close touch the way you have been. I am willing to do the same to reassure you.

10.• Every possible precaution must be taken to erase him from our lives and make contact with him so difficult that you would have to make great efforts and great deception to even make it possible. This includes, but is not limited to:

11. Change your home phone number [color:"red"] DONE [/color]

12. Block his number from your phone. [color:"red"]Doesn't have new # [/color]

13. Get caller-ID-blocking blocked so there are no blocked numbers on the phone bill.[color:"red"]Doesn't have new # [/color]


14. Block all of his email addresses from all of your email addresses and give me your passwords.[color:"red"]Doesn't have new email [/color]


15. Delete him from every possible contact list you have.

16. Get rid of anything he has given you, cards, memorabilia, anything at all. [color:"red"] DONE [/color]


17. I will continue to deal with all money issues. [color:"red"] DONE [/color]


18. Do not mention him in the context of the present. He has no more part in our lives.

19. It is as if he is now dead, and has no place among the living. (The only time his name will ever come up is in dealing with something affair-related.)

20. Tell me immediately if there is ever contact of any kind. If you are honest about this, we will simply find a way to prevent it from happening again through more precautions.

21. If this agreement is broken, at that point I will not allow you to remain in our home and you will have to give up all access to our children as I will not have their lives damaged and tainted by this type of behavior ever again. And, to be very blunt, depending on the level of dishonesty, especially in the face of all these precautions, I might very well decide to end things with you at that point and leave the marriage without notice or contact. I will leave and never return

22. You need to have some glimmer of how badly this affair has hurt me, in spite of how calm I have been in talking to you about it. I will not let this continue. There will be no accidents or second chances. There will be no excuses, and no reasons for any type of contact, at any time, ever. No matter how much trouble it might be to put these things into place, it is little enough to prevent the kind of agony I have suffered, and am still suffering now. I will not risk being hurt like this again. I love you enough that I am willing to try again, and I hope and pray you will decide to take that chance and accept that risk as I have.

23. I will never physically hurt you or our children, you are not worth jail or legal trouble to me.

Here is a list of things that you must do:
1. You must be totally honest with me about everything
2. You must answer every question that I ask truthfully and fully.
3. You must do everything in your power to prove to me that I am the one that you want to be with.
4. You must prove your love to me...You must be patient, gentle, compassionate and understanding.
5. You must feel my pain.
6. You must fully understand the devastation that You caused our children and I and our family.
7. You must accept full responsibility for your actions.
8. You must stop all contact with OM, write a No Contact for Life letter that we both agree to and send it, and not try to protect him. [color:"red"]DONE
[/color]
9. You must reassure me that it is OK to ask questions.
10. You must reassure me that you will not drive me away by doing the things that are necessary to heal.
11. You must recognize when I’m struggling or experiencing a trigger and comfort me.
12. You must be able to tell me how sorry You are and show you care.
13. You must re-enforce to me, that I am not responsible.
14. You must put your own feelings of guilt and shame aside and help me heal first.
15. You must reconnect emotionally, mentally, and physically with me and stay connected.
16. You must work on rebuilding trust. No secrets. No privacy.
17. You must be willing to seek counseling.
18. You must learn what is and is not acceptable when communicating with the opposite sex...You must establish boundaries and not cross them.

Here is a list of things that I must do:
1. I will give you the necessary time to prove your love and commitment to me. [color:"red"] DONE, although it seems that it hasn't been done and WW needs more time, so be it, take as much time as you need[/color]

2. I will be open with my feelings. [color:"red"] DONE, at a very hgih cost, still paying [/color]
3. I will ask the questions that are important to me. [color:"red"] Can't will start WWIII [/color]

4. I won’t be afraid that you will drive me away while you are trying to heal.

5. I will stop blaming myself for your actions. I am in no way responsible...even if I am Attila the Hun!
6. I must be able to let you connect with me. (this one takes time) [color:"red"] Trying [/color]
7. I must continue checking up on you in order to let you rebuild trust. [color:"red"] Gave up as it makes WW mad[/color]
8. I must be willing to seek counseling so that I do not get stuck in one of the stages of recovery such as anger or depression. [color:"red"] DONE [/color]


Things you need to know
1. I love you with all my heart.
2. You are in an infatuation, which is the same thing as being hooked on crack so far as your brain works.
3. When you come down from the infatuation, you are going to experience emotions of guilt, betrayal, remorse and a dozen other things that will make your joy trip right now simply not worth it.
4. You are hooked up with a person willing to destroy a marriage a family our children’s lives and so are you.
5. If you do not quit lying to yourself and terminate the affair - both contact and in your mind, I am going to leave without notice or contact. If you fail to work on the marriage and continue to press for a divorce, I will petition the court for full custody of our children as, by your actions, lying, cheating, and bringing another man into our marriage, you are an unfit parent.
6. I am doing this for me and our kids. I will help you if you will let me.
7. I will not be your doormat.
8. I love you and I always will, but I will not live a lie with you nor will I stand by and watch you lying to yourself or hurting yourself, me or our kids, period, end of discussion. [color:"red"] [/color]

Maybe boundaries were too much too soon, but I thought after 4 mos of NC this was not too much to ask. Maybe she should just be allowed to do whatever she pleases whenever she pleases.

Please let me know if you think these boundaries are out of line. As stated in an earlier post I used the boundaries from Neaks post as the basis for thes, I thought they were in line with MB. I guess not. I have not enforced any of them, nor have I bashed anyone over the head with them.

Todays stuff started as I couldn't tell her to take the job or not take it as I didn't know enough about where we were going and how we were going to get there.

Apparently this post is what started the deal earlier today. Venting and hoping for some clues.


Over lunch she let me know she has contacted a lawyer and had an appt with him at 2:00. She cancelled and rescheduled for Friday.

Eagle15


Well, they're not really boundaries because boundaries are about actions you control.

This part:


Was the only part that was a boundary. The rest of it was a list of demands or rules.

As for out of bounds, well, it's hard to tell. If that's all you'll accept then that's all you'll accept. I think you are entitled to set those requirements. It's only fair of you to be honest about it and tell her what those requirements are, too. So, if that's the only thing you'll accept then it's totally appropriate.

I, personally, wouldn't acquiese to a list of demands like that - I like myself too much. You seem to ask for a lot of things you aren't willing to give - are you sure you're building a partnership here? This sounds like punishment for her affair, to me. It's honestly hard to reconcile the things you wrote with any kind of love. Anger, I'd buy. But love? No, none of that sounds loving to me.

So, what's with the rules about reading this website, etc? Is all that exaggeration or are you really micromanaging her time like that?


I'm sorry to hear of this development.

You know, maybe I'm not qualified to comment on this thread because I'm neither the WS or the BS but I AM married and I can tell you that there's no way that list of boundaries would have gone over well with me. I think you do need and deserve some protections and you need and deserve some help healing. I don't think you're entitled to punish your wife and inflict pain on her or be cruel to her even known that she's put you through the wringer. And, that's what I think you're doing - whether you mean to or not. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I wish you both the best.

Mys

Eagle - Very often the WS feels they are doing all they can in the marriage just by being there.

Your list of boundaries/rules is a bit long. Somehow she needs to be an equal partner in this. She is telling us that she has been alone and has learned to value herself. Now she is back with you, and I can see why she is feeling like she doesn't want to be there.

Chuck, I have to agree with mys, this list sounds like a punishment. Sure, there are some things on there that she should naturally agree to in order to protect you, but it reads a like prison sentence written for a criminal, rather than an equal partner in a marriage.

Many of these are things that should be POJAed and others are feelings that she will come into once you get into recovery. Those can't be demanded of her. I think her reaction has been resentment and defensiveness, which has become a huge impediment to recovery.

And what does she mean about HAVING to read MB material, etc?

Would you want to consider starting over?

p.s. what does she say about contacting the lawyer?

I asked her to read and post in an attempt to get her to talk to someone. I never demanded anything. I gave her the boundaries most is direct from another member's post, I thought it was OK, I haven't enforced anything as even talking R causes mushroom cloud over the house.

Her version of POJA is I want this period. If I showed you the original NC letter and what was actually sent along with the emails that flew between here and OKC I think you might wonder what was going on. I tried to discuss the difference between AF mandated NC and actual NC, she sees no difference. She argued about wording I asked that she leave in the phrase it's the right thing to do, she wanted it to read it's the suitable thing to do. That's her version of POJA.

Lawyer appt is now Friday, she wants to know where she stands, she called a lawyer while she was in OKC, don't know the outcome. She won't say anything so I really don't know.

Please understand she was in Japan for 2 years, started telling me she was going to stay in AF if she got promoted, not what do you think, this is what I'm going to do. She then went to OKC, I looked for jobs there, none to be had, she even found a house we liked and I would have loved to live in, I volunteered to quit my job and move there anyway. That is where the financial suicide thing came into play, from her not me. She missed promotion by like 12 points, said she wanted to stay another year to try to make E-7. Again I asked if we should move there, but now I was here in huntsville, would owe my company for the move, plus moving expenses to OKC. I would have gladly done that, no again, it woud be FS. Soooo as time goes by she continues to tell me she wants to stay and take another shot at E-7, I take this as abandonment, tell her so and suggest that if she voluntarily stays away from the family for another year, makes E-7 (she definitely would have) she would then have 4 more years obligation to the AF, there is no AF base in Huntsville, she doesn't want us with her as it would be FS, soo I say that would be a deal breaker, she wanted to know what that means I say get a lawyer, abandoning the family for an AF career is a definite deal breaker. She says she supported my career and I stayed for 24.5yrs, why can't she, I say you can if we are there, also we were living in the same house for our whole marriage. It's different when you are in another state, think us moving there is FS and a no go, and you want to stay away, voluntarily this time for an extended period of time. I need you, I love you, the kids need you, it's time to retire, I am extremely lonely and want you to retire and come home. So there you have it, as much of the story as I can put together right now. I'm sure you will get a different picture when she reads this, but this is how I saw it and how I reacted to her demand to stay in AF and away from the family.

Hopefully she will consider everything carefully. The two of you have the world by the tail right now. This should be the beginning of a wonderful new marriage.

I hope you will relax a little and let her be more of an equal partner in this.

Remember that article about enduring? If you can both hold on a little longer, the chances are way in your favor of having happy lives.

myschae,

I would have never thought of those boundaries/demands/whatever prior to the A and finding this website. I used another BSs letter as a guide. i am more than willing to POJA, but it takes 2, I have carried this burden for a while, I am tired, she has put forth very little effort and feels it's monumental. I screwed up, but nothing and I do mean nothing I could have done deserves the punishment that I have recieved over the past 4 months. I truly hope and pray you never have to find out what being a BS is like, I'd rather she shot me dead in cold blood. Being a BS is like the death of a thousand cuts, it never seems to stop, you can see the person you used to love standing ther watching your pain and knowing full well they are the cause of it, knowing full well they can fix it, but choosing to stand by and watch you bleed to death, just like they chose to have an A, lie about it and everything else. Please understand I DID NOT DO THIS TO MYSELF, IT WAS INFLICTED UPON ME, I DID NOT GET A VOTE!

I am trying very hard, probably too hard, btu I'm not one to stand by and let things go. I need to take action. But I can't because I have no control over the situation, I have been working on this for 4 months long distance, she said the right words read the books, but can't apply the knowledge, What Now!

Eagle - I know exactly how you feel. My WH ripped my heart out and didn't give a d*mn. What will happen if she doesn't get on board, is that you will lose your love for her.

Eagle15

Let me take this out of order.


You are absolutely right. I definitely understand that you are in pain. I'm not stranger to MB but I've mostly stayed over on the Emotional Needs board. I come here occasionally to see if there's a thread I can respond to. I won't respond to yours anymore if you don't want me to.


Absolutely right again. I really DO understand that you're in incredible pain.

The thing is, that right now because of your pain and understandable anger, YOU are the biggest barrier to a complete recovery of your marriage - not your wife! Other's have told you that your wife is moving through the stages of a WS - she's trying to work her way out of the fog. It's like she's trying to come back all the way from Pluto and she can only obey the laws of physics in how fast she moves.

I think everyone understands that you feel you're at the end of your rope and want this fixed right now today - make it stop but it's just not possible. That expectation, hope, desire, <whatever> is really doing nothing but adding to your frustration and causing further damage that is going to have to be fixed if you ever want to have a true partnership in marriage.


Seriously? What now is that you look over your budget (which I know is tight) and calculate the cost/benefit of getting some professional help. You both need some professional accountability. You, specifically, need a lot of help in managing your anger in healthy ways so that you're not taking it out on your wife - that's NOT going to help the situation. She, specifically, needs some help getting out of the fog and working towards recovering your marriage.


So, the whole bit about being assigned to read the website for hours in the morning and not being allowed to do other things is a misunderstanding? If so, I suggest you correct that misunderstanding right away. It's botching things up.


Some of it is OK. But a lot of it is completely contradictory and probably impossible given where she is right now.

For example:


You want her to be honest. Good!

But then you say:


What comes first? What if right now she DOESN'T want to be with you (because of your anger etc. and because of her withdrawal)? How can she possibly fulfill both your honesty requirement AND the requirement that she prove to you something that just isn't true (but might be true someday)?
There are other things that are the complete opposite of MB.
For example:

POJA says "Never do anything without the enthusiastic approval of both spouses."
She's one of the spouses. If she's doing things that make her miserable, that's the OPPOSITE of MB. She's going to build so much resentment about doing things that make her miserable that there's no possible WAY she'll ever learn to enjoy them. You can't fill her love bank that fast.

And, while we're on the subject, Eagle15... about SF. I just really think you'd be a lot better off if you developed a whole lot of patience in this area and stopped initiating until things are on firmer footing between you. I know it's not fair. But, right now, when you have sex there's no fulfillment part for her - in fact you're leaving her crying and upset by the experience. You're comparing having sex with her to having sex with a pound of liver (you can justify it all you want by saying you were being radically honest but we both know that's just a cover for you deciding to retaliate against her because you asked her a question and she answered in a way you didn't like.)

If having sex with her is about as fulfilling as having sex with liver for you, I can't imagine there's any fulfillment in it for you. There's no fulfillment in it for her - she's feeling used. That means that sex is serving some other purpose (punishment? control? release? What?) than establishing or maintaining a intimate bond with your partner and I think that's unhealthy and is going to cause more problems then it solves.
And, some of your requests are somewhat unreasonable in the impossible range:

Ok, that type of stuff is hard when you're in a stage of intimacy - no one is a mind reader. And, she can't be expected to know how to comfort you all the time.

Eagle15, your list has some really, really good things in it. It also has enough really outlandish or flat out contradictory things in it to render it an impossible standard and therefore not of much use. Why not consider Melody Lane's offer and start over on it?

Mys

Believer,

Done

myschae,

Very good points. The boundaries letter was taken from Not_so_Unique's post about her letter to her WH. The bottom part was taken from I believe Big kahunas thread about what a WS needs to do to recover and help a BS recover. All I thought MB stuf, obviously not. As far as my WW goes, 4 mos of her own personal space, her living in OKC, the kids and I in Huntsville, reading that I asked her to do, can't make her do anything, if I could I would have made her stop and think before she chose to have an A. I thougt I was doing MB stuff, what I've read here and in all of the books. I thought she was a little more on board with this, as Former President Reagan said "You thought wrong!"

If you read all of my posts you will see that I have been at this for over 4mos, D-Day 14 Oct 05, NC 15 Oct 05 (AF mandated). Prior to that we had been seperated for almost 4 years due to her assignments and her fear of "Financial Suicide".

So my patience is running a little thin. She has rewritten our marital history, accused me of forcing her to read and post, again I can't make her do anything. She continually stated that she is not in control, she is not driving this situation. If not then who is??? "All thrust and no vector" Whenever I try to take control and get things done, I get attitude and anger, so I am just along for the ride now.

She has done everything to destroy this family and marriage, she sees Divorce as the only option, and says "the kids will get over it, children are resilient."

I have been seeing an MC/IC, she went a few times, the last time the MC said she needed to try to meet all ENs including SF, she read it that the MC and I were buddies, the "Good Old Boy Network" was in full swing and I put him up to telling her that. Now based on the 3 previous visits this was his conclusion, based on what she had told him, sooooo go figure. Now she won't go see him. His wife is also a Dr. WW interviewed her after I asked my IC t fill her in on the sitch so she would not be blind when WW interviewed her, WW was aware of this prior to setting up the interview. After the interview she thought ICs wife was in cahoots with IC and I and soooo she will not set up an appointment. Hasn't even tried to find an IC.

If you think I'm full of venom you should hear her when she goes off. She went off in MC a couple of times, now my IC says he doesn't blame me for being angry, he would have jumped ship long ago. Understand this man is very religious, believes in MB principle as they are parallel to the religious program he uses. He is very pro marriage, but sees my anger as a natural result of verbal and mental abuse at the hands of WW.

Having SF is an issue, I can and will do without, been doing that for almost 4 years nothing new here, so she doesn't feel bad about anything, heaven forbid she should ever feel bad. Not a problem, her feelings come first always have always will, again not a problem!

Here is the quote part of my boundaries came from:

The rest came from a WS recovery guide that I can't find right now.

MYSCHAE,

Please continuie to post to me as all POVs are needed. I can't get anything from WW.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#2685515

Link to other post about what WS must do.

Eagle15


The parts that you posted at the bottom of this were the parts that I thought were really, really good. I specified the parts I thought were somewhat contradictory - if you ask for honesty, then you can't also ask for her to tell you specific things that might not be true. It just doesn't make any kind of sense. Either she tells you what you want to hear all the time or she tells you the truth. Hopefully the two things coincide but, when they don't, something has to take priority.

If it were me, I'd pick honesty even if it meant she wasn't saying the things I wanted to hear.


Yes. You taking control and 'getting things done' is a very bad way to build a partnership. At the end of the day, what good is any of this going to do you if you don't end up with a good marital partnership?

I'm really not posting here to bust your chops or make you feel worse than you all ready do. I really want you to build a good marriage out of the ashes of your old one and, in my opinion, a GOOD/GREAT marriage is a partnership - not someone being in control and getting things done.

Now, I really do understand the problem of her not wanting to partner with you and how frustrating that has to be given what she's done. Her not partnering with you is not your fault, your responsibility, or your issue to work on and fix. All you can do is present yourself as the best partner that you can possibly be.

If, after all that, she still absolutely will not build a partnership with you, then you have some more tough choices to make. It's not pretty but there it is.


I'm sure she has her anger issues too. But, I'm worried about YOUR anger. You're entitled to it but, man, it's a bad deal if you can't find some healthy outlet to work through it and get it out of your system. Stuff like that starts to affect your overall health, you know?


*sighs*

This isn't about making her feel good or you feel bad or you sacrificing so she doesn't have to. Read what I wrote. It doesn't sound as though you're getting any of the fulfillment out of sex. And, it certainly doesn't sound as though she is, either. Good gracious, you can't possibly feel better about doing that than not doing it at all. Or, maybe you do (it was really just a suggestion).

Sex and intimacy is something that you should, at the very least, enjoy. When it turns into a power struggle, it can taint that area of your lives forever and cause troublesome scars that just don't ever heal right. You guys all ready have enough of that going on. I'd save you from any additional ones you don't have to get, if I could.


And, at some point they might be appropriate. But, right now, it's too much to focus on all at once and, as I said, some of it is so contradictory you're just asking for trouble.

Once again, if it were me, I'd take anything out that puts her in a double bind and gives her an excuse to be dishonest. The LAST thing you ever need to hear is "I said that because you told me I had to tell you x,y,z even if it wasn't true." UGH.

Mys

Thank you, very strong food for thought. I jsut can't think right now, I'll have to give it a day to digest. Until then I'm very quiet.

Eagle, this struck me as it did myschae:

Why not just get out a pledge paddle, whack her in the butt, and demand that she say "Thank you sir, may I please have another?"

Okay, the Animal House analogy was going a bit far as I am sure you would not physically abuse her. But the emotional abuse you inflict on her by demanding that she get used to doing things that make her miserable is a bit much, IMVHO.

You also demanded, "feel my pain." Well, if there is one thing I've learned here, it is that no WS can fully feel the BS's pain. BS's, including yourself, have said it over and over. You are asking the impossible there, also where you demanded that she recognize immediately that you are being triggered and that she comfort you. She's not a mind-reader, Eagle, and have you thought that maybe her best efforts at comforting you might not work? I know some of my best efforts to comfort/reassure my BH did not have the desired effect.

I don't know what to tell you. It's like you're trying to control her thoughts and feelings. It can't be done.

Speaking of control, neither of you has full control. You can only control yourselves, not the other. Considering your threats to cut her off from the kids if she doesn't recover to your standards in the time allotted, I can't say that I blame her for seeking legal advice. Probably just trying to see what her rights are. Would you not do the same if the sitch were reversed and she threatened you?

And on the MC/IC thing: The practice we went to does not allow the same counselor to be both MC to the couple and IC to one of the partners. Probably for the very reason your wife had problems with your set-up. There needs to be complete objectivity there with the MC -- neither partner should fear being ganged up on.

Again, I don't know what to say... you are still relatively early post-NC, there are demands being given, and she still sounds fogged/WDish.

GBH'

[color:"blue"]This is where I got the feel my pain, as I've stated before, maybe this was too soon, cart before the horse, but I doo see a lot of people on here quoting and sending people to see Suzet's post so for you here it is.
[/color]
Suzet*
Member



Reged: 06/11/04
Posts: 1778
Great article: What the WS/BS Must Do to Reconcile
#2685515 - 04/07/05 02:17 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



WHAT THE WS/BS MUST DO TO RECONCILE

JUST GET OVER IT ALREADY!
How many times has that been said to you? If it has been said to you even once, then that is a big red flag! No one has the right to tell this to you. If it is your therapist telling you this, then you need a new therapist because obviously this one has no understanding of infidelity. If it is your spouse telling you this, then they have no understanding of the devastation that they have caused.

In order to "get over it", you and your spouse must be given the proper tools and a map. I do not feel that you can successfully navigate the road from infidelity towards healing without these two things.

You do not really "get over it"...you can move beyond it, but you will carry the scars for life as a reminder. You do not forget, but you can forgive...if and only if you and your spouse have the tools and the map.

The former cheating spouse has the biggest responsibility in the healing process. They hold the key for the healing of you and your marriage.

Your spouse must be willing to make it their mission in life to heal you...no matter how long it takes. They should not have to even ask you what you need to help you heal...they should seek professional advice from others and start implementing it immediately. Maybe down the road they will need to seek your own personal advice. You hold the timeline to your own healing.

They need to explain to the children, if they are old enough, that they have hurt you terribly and that they are doing everything to help you heal. They need to tell the children that it is not the children's fault or the betrayed spouses fault. If they see the betrayed spouse getting angry at the former cheating spouse, that this is normal and well deserved and part of healing. They are to be told that they are not to blame the betrayed spouse for their emotional outbursts toward the cheating spouse and that the betrayed spouse should be commended for being willing to give them another chance because they do not deserve it.

In order for your marriage to successfully survive these are some things that your spouse must do:

1. He must be totally honest with you about everything
2. He must answer every question that you ask truthfully and fully.
3. He must do everything in his power to prove to you that you are the one that he wants to be with.
4. He must prove his love to you...he must be patient, gentle, compassionate and understanding.
5. He must feel your pain.
6. He must fully understand the devastation that he caused you.
7. He must accept full responsibility for his actions.
8. He must stop all contact with OP and not try to protect them.
9. He must reassure you that it is OK to ask questions.
10. He must reassure you that you will not drive him away by doing the things that are necessary to heal.
11. He must recognize when your struggling or experiencing a trigger and comfort you.
12. He must be able to tell you how sorry he is and show you.
13. He must re-enforce to you, that you are not responsible.
14. He must put his own feelings of guilt and shame aside and help you heal first.
15. He must reconnect emotionally, mentally, and physically with you and stay connected.
16. He must work on rebuilding trust. No secrets. No privacy.
17. He must be willing to seek counseling.
18. He must learn what is and is not acceptable when communicating with the opposite sex...he must establish boundaries and not cross them.

Here is a list of things that you must do:

1. Give him the necessary time to prove his love and commitment to you.
2. Be open with your feelings.
3. Ask the questions that are important to you.
4. Don't be afraid that you will drive him away while you are trying to heal.
5. Stop blaming yourself for his actions. You are in no way responsible...even if you are Attila the Hun!
6. You must be able to let him connect with you. (this one takes time)
7. You must continue checking up on him in order to let him rebuild trust.
8. You must be willing to seek counseling so that you do not get stuck in one of the stages of recovery such as anger or depression.

These are just a few of the things that I have thought of off the top of my head. With these things in place, then reconciliation can be successful. It is still a long journey, but with baby steps it can be achieved. For me, with all these things in place it took about 1 1/2 years to get to a really comfortable place. Without a majority of these things, I do not see how reconciliation can be successful.

If you were to decide to climb Mt Everest and you looked in the phone book under expeditions and called a company and told them that you wanted to climb Mt Everest and they said great. Then you would ask them how to do it. If their reply was to "just get over it", then I am sure that you would call some other company. You would know that it would require the proper tools and a map and a team approach. Well, you are facing a mountain that you need and want to climb. You cannot "just get over it". It doesn't happen that way. It will take the proper tools and a map and team work.

The majority of the things that I mentioned must take place from BOTH spouses before a successful reconciliation takes place. I am also only addressing reconciliation here, however the betrayed spouse has other options. If your spouse is doing EVERYTHING that has been recommended by the therapist to help you heal and you have made NO progress after say 1 year, then the betrayed spouse probably needs a new therapist who can help her better evaluate the situation and help her to start giving her spouse credit for what he is doing or come up with other options rather than reconciliation. Some betrayed spouses cannot reconcile no matter what their spouse does, but they may need therapy to move beyond the infidelity anyway.

If after 6 mos, the betrayed spouse has NOT progressed and the former cheating spouse is NOT doing his part, then there is no reason to expect any progress from the betrayed spouse toward reconciliation. Each person has a role in the reconciliation process...including knowing when enough is enough. I would never expect a former cheating spouse to be able to hang in there after 1 1/2 to 2 years of doing EVERYTHING recommended and seeing NO progress from the BS. I would also never expect a betrayed spouse to hang on for years if her spouse is doing NOTHING to help her heal.

I believe that forgiveness is independent of the cheater helping you heal. Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself...not the other person.

In the early stages the former cheater needs to find out from professionals what to do to help you heal. The wounded spouse is often in no condition to be able to know this in the beginning. Once the wounded spouse is down the road towards recovery, then they will be able to fine tune what is needed, but initially...no way.

Edited to change the subject topic

Edited by Suzet* (04/07/05 04:37 AM)

[color:"blue"] Also since I am at work and don't keep a copy of SAA, LB, and HNHN here I will have to find the reference later and post it this evening. It does say the WW should do things to try to reconnect to BH and if memory serves it does say that while a WS may be uncomfortable at first, maybe even not want to do it you should at least try and do it. The more you do it the more you reconnect and the more you get used to it, and eventually the more you will enjoy it. Now if you take that same logic and stand it next to what most WSs say around here about the first time PA with OP, the more they do it the easier it gets, tie this into the addiction theory and WA LA you have the addiction, the enjoyment and the reason why it works as well as the reason WSs have a hard time getting away from the OP. Wooooo Hoooo now you have it!

If this comes across as condescending, (my best british accent "Sorry"), Sorry, but I've been taking a beating over this, I have not tried to enforce this as I don't want a nuclear exchange in my house. How, you might ask, do I know this would cause nukes in the house? Just mentioning it causes nukes to rain down on my head!

I put it together trying to be efficient and put a lot of stuff in one letter, sorry, my bad, but she reads very little and only when she is ready so I try to get everything at once as opposed to having to wait 6 mos or more for a response.

I am being as patient as I can, but the lies about trying were just that lies. I truly thought we were further along and she was a little more on board with this, as opposed to what I now know, she is hanging on by a thread waiting me out trying to force me to D. If it comes to D, and we have discussed this, I will do my very best to make her suffer more than I have. Do I want to do that? NO!!! Will I? You can take it to the bank, I certainly will. She knows this and is apparently OK with it. But if she continues along the path she is on I will spare no expense at trying to ruin her, and to quote her, "even if the kids and I have to live in a cardboard box!" I will not have my kids asking me why I didn't fight or fight harder. I already have that one coming very soon from DD21 from my XW.[/color]

Eagle...see my post on your wife's thread.

Seriously, I absolutely can understand the hurt and anger that all of this creates...and can feel it in both of your threads.

BUT...unless the two of you learn to DEAL with that anger without attacking each other, you may as well just give up now. ONE of you has to stop reacting, and start thinking and acting without attacking!!!!

I'm sorry...but I really think you need to give this some thought. If both of you do nothing more than try to hurt the other person, and neither one LISTENS to the other person without learning to ignore their own pain and trying to help resolve the issue instead...then there really is no hope, because you have NOTHING to build from.

Give it some thought. How can you ask her to quit DJ'ing and LB'ing when you can't do the same thing?

Myschae

I have threads under Eagle15Tooo.

Eagle
I know the boards have been hot lately with the posts and judgements, along with spouses responding on each others threads.
As a BS to a BS PLEASE take a look at your recent posts. Really look at them. I know you are in pain, guess what? so is she. Think about that.
It seems that you have gotten angry, and in that anger you are DJing and LBing. WHAT DO YOU WANT? Do you want to be right? Do you want to make her do what you want?
YOU CANNOT CONTROL HER
You can however chose to control YOURSELF
SHE CANNOT CONTROL YOU
She can however control herself

You are both hurt.
You both are hurting each other and your children in the process.
Please take a step back and listen. Just listen.

Hearing is not listening. Listen and learn from each other.
From the little I have read on yours and your Ws posts I see alot of anger, frustration, resentment, and pain from both sides. I also see DJs, LBs, threats, etc.

Do you really mean you want a divorce? REALLY
If you do, then that is up to you.
Do you really want to hurt someone that you LOVED that much?
If so, then by all means enjoy.
Do you really want to hurt your children?
She is still thier mother, above all else, whether you divorce or not, she is still thier mother. And you and her will still have to be in contact with each other over the kids.
I wish you two PEACE.
JE

Sorry for the threadjack.

Myschae,

I saw your response on the thread I started. I did not respond because I was trying not to bring the thread back up again. Once again you made some very good points. I thank you for them.

And now back to your regular schedule thread.

Eagle15,

I see that your Taker has taken over. You are being given some good advice here, so I won't waste your time too much. But when you have the chance, check Tired_dad's posts. Although I like Tired_dad he made the same mistakes you are making now. If you don't change course, you will probably end up exactly where he is right now--now a good thing indeed.

Best

Do I want D? [color:"blue"] NO[/color]
Do I think it will be good for our children? [color:"blue"] NO[/color]
Do I think it will be good for either of us? [color:"blue"]NO[/color]
Do I think it is the right thing to do? [color:"blue"]NO[/color]
Do I really want to hurt someone that I LOVE that much? [color:"blue"]NO[/color]
Did she ever give me a vote in this? [color:"blue"]NO[/color]
Did she ever tell me we had serious problems? [color:"blue"]NO[/color]
Can I continue having divorce crammed down my throat? [color:"blue"]NO[/color]
Can I continue busting my A$$ and being threatened by D?[color:"blue"] NO[/color]
Can I survive a D? [color:"blue"]Certainly, been there Done that got a T-Shirt[/color]
Can our children survive a D? [color:"blue"]Probably, according to WW "children are resilient, they will get over it!" Not what I would want for them, but I didn't get a vote![/color]
Will D be easy? [color:"blue"]Sure, pay lawyers the amount they ask, don't fight, just give up and it will be over in a few weeks.[/color]
Will I regret it? [color:"blue"]You bet, but I have given all I have to give. She hasn't budged she has said from D-Day "Iwant out! I want a D!"[/color]
Will she regret it? [color:"blue"]Not in the least![/color]
Will I miss my kids? [color:"blue"]Terribly, it may kill me to be without them, but I must cut all contact to survive. I will be very dark, when they are adults they will know how to find me and I will explain it all. I will save these threads and give them to them when they come to me. [/color]

Mel,

I would consider starting over, but it takes 2 to tango, I ahve been doing the 1 thing way too long and WW refuses.

As you have probably seen on her threads she wants none of it, and what you see is very little compared to what I get at the house if I bring up R or M. Sooooooo we're off to see the wizard the wonderful wizard of D. Not by choice, but because I'm tired & all this is killing me.

Eagle-

How about responding to another bird of prey? Take a look at what I posted to you before. I agree with the fact that you've basically just let your 'taker' take over. You know what...doing that is pretty much the best way possible to ensure that your family WILL end up destroyed. I personally can't think of a better way to shatter your family than what you're already doing. Both of you need to calm down...and the only person YOU can control is YOU.

Here is the post I just provided your wife on her thread...give it some thought.

Great post, I get it. I agree, but it takes 2.

You know I would have really loved to eventually put "in recovery" in our sig, and eventually "RECOVERED" in our sig. But I can't do it alone.

If this is what you REALLY want...then quit trying to be right, and do what you have to in order to be MARRIED.

You can't make her do her part...but you CAN make it EASIER for her to consider doing her part. Right now, what are you doing to make the concept of being married to you attractive to her? Are you showing her what she stands to lose by continuing her current behavior? Or are you simply not thinking and just reacting to everything she says and does.

Do YOUR part. Stop trying to fix the marriage for the moment, and start trying to fix the friendship first. If you are like most couples, you were friends for at least a short time before you were married. Get that back first...and let her see the man in you that won her heart all those years ago. NOT the ogre that her infidelity has led to. No one wants to be married to someone who is constantly judging, dis-respecting, attacking, etc...

I'm NOT saying be a doormat. But I AM saying stop acting emotionally all the time and start reacting more compassionately and understandingly. And give her the chance to do the same. Quit trying to force the marriage to begin reconciling right now...simply work on being friends, with the hope that your marriage can be reconciled in the future.

But...(and I will likely say this to your wife as well), I'm NOT suggesting that either of you go ahead and divorce right now either. What I'm suggesting is that both of you take a bit of pressure off the other for a bit, and re-discover each other some. NO CHOICE HAS TO BE MADE TODAY. OR TOMORROW. OR NEXT WEEK. And for goodness sakes, do as I suggested and work on learning to communicate with each other in a civilized and respectful fashion! Get that counseling with SH so that you both agree on what an LB/DJ/etc... is.

Hope this helps. Give some thought to what I said on how I dealt with MY FWW when the affair was over. I was NOT a doormat. I simply made the effort to understand what she was going through as well...and I knew that at least in my case, if I could help her deal with her own issues, I could resolve mine in time as well.

Can you two simply do something together that doesn't require you to talk about the R? Crosswords/online games/jigsaws/crocheting/walking/hiking/biking/anything that you can do TOGETHER to rebuild your friendship.

This is just heartbreaking.

I see so little love and so much control Eagle.
What do you love about her?

I admit I haven't read your whole thread, but what was your Plan A all about? What did you do that contributed to the state of the marriage? Why is this all about what SHE needs to do?

I saw the 8 items on your list, but really those were more demands of her.

I know you're trying to use the resources on this site, however you're using material from BS who had REMORSEFUL, REPENTANT spouses who would do anything to repair what they had done.

You haven't convinced your wife that she wants to stay. You still have Plan A to do.

Maybe she will get to the point of WANTING to be married to you.

I tried a Plan A long distance. Obviously it didn't work. I did the best I could, but I can't take D in my face everytime we disagree.
I have asked her to read and post in 4 mos she read SAA & LB, she can't tell you a thing about what she read only that she did read it.
I'm tired of all this, the fighting, hearing about OM, lack of desire not wnating to try or I'm trying, I see progress, but still want D. I ahve finally been beaten down farther than I ever have before. I'm done.

Please understand that I have loved my wife like no other, never even looked anywhere else, always thought she was it, #1. I tried to protect her from some poor choices, show my concern for what she wanted to do, instead of it being a good thing, it was labeled "CONTROLLING". When our children were 3 & 5 she wanted to go skydiving, first I thought it was not a good idea (safety, young children etc...), second it is expensive and according to her we couldn't afford much of anything else so how can we do this, third I wasn't invited, never asked. I ahve friends who skydive, all have been hurt at one time or another, I used to hang out with them alot but after seeing the results of a streamer, cut away, and reserve opening a little too low, I didn't think I wnated to do it.
Having too many male friends that I didn't know only heard about in comversation, yes she offered to introduce a few, but I thought it was inappropriate in the first place sooooo shame on me I'm " controlling" teh list goes on, but I won't. You decide!

Chuck, please don't give up. I understand your frustration. Can you please take a breather, calm down and regroup? This can work out if you both stop engaging in lovebusters: ie, your trying to educate her and her tossing around the divorce threat.

Maybe you will decide to move on, you would be perfectly within your rights to do so. But I really think another approach might change the situation for the positive.

Just remember, we are all really on your side here [except perhaps the poster who accused you of being "abusive" = NOT HELPFUL!] and want to see you succeed. Please relax and don't try to do anything tonight.

Mel,

Thank god. I'm just relaxing and having a brew. I told her to file, if she does, she does, I won't. I also won't fight it. I'm rolling with the punches. I responded to an earlier post from you. I wiil and am willing to start again, but she isn't. If she comes around soon maybe we can. I don't know as she won't discuss any plans she may have with me. I did tell the kids this evening and they are upset, but kind of knew it was coming as WW has in their words just been making up excuses. So I'm on hold and waiting to see her hand, it's a lot like Texas hold'em, but with much higher stakes.

BTW I was informed today my company may move me back to FL in late Aug or Sep, small raise, they pay for move, etc... Reason for wanting the FL house. WW is aware of this and doesn't have much to say about it. I giess she is still digesting it.

Eagle,

I think you know how an anaconda kills its pray don't you. It squeezes it to death, but not with brute force. Everytime the pary wiggles and exhales heavily, it just tightens the muscles and does not let the pray reexpand its diaphram (sp).

The more you wiggle, the more you vent to her, the more you get angry becaue she will not do something or she is laying to you with her mouth, the more she tightens the grip and she is squeezing the life out of your marriage.

Your defense is to STOP all of this. You may not realize this but choosing to NOT react to be inactive in the on going drama, is ACTION. It is a conscious decision and therefore is an ACTION. You say you are an action oriented guy, well ACT. Stop doing what you are doing, relax, and quit letting her tighten the coils.

She will tire if she gains no new purchase, if she gains nothing with her behavior. She will eventually see things differently. You don't realize but 4 months out from d-day is NOT a long time. Stop struggling so, and conserve your energy. Don't give in to the feeling you need to FIGHT for this. What you need to do is take ACTION, and often the best ACTION is to not engage in the drama.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

You and Mel are right, I'll just ride it out. I will try to keep my Pie Hole shut.

Thnak you

JL's analagy is so good. Stop fighting!
Its like being in quicksand, the more you struggle the faster you sink!

Read Ark's post titled "be still."

I think you still need to be in Plan A. She may have ended the affair and she may be at home, but you're not in recovery.

Are you trying to attract her back to the marriage? How are you doing it? Put your "taker" away for a while longer. When she regrets her actions is when you will start getting those items on your list. She's not there yet.

Eagle-

In an effort to provide consistent advice to both of you, while at the same time supporting not having you both going into each other's threads, here is what I just posted on your wife's thread...give this some thought my friend.

Thank you Owl. I really do appreciate your help. Please keep it coming.

Everyone else who has and is helping please keep it coming. I really do need all the help I can get.

Thank you all.

Owl posted:


Eagle, I second what Owl said, esp the above quoted part and I bolded neutral because I wonder if the MC you've been seeing is neutral. He's also your IC, right? I can't blame your W one bit if she feels like she's being ganged up on, especially with her reference on her thread that the MC suggested you seek more sex from her.

As I posted earlier, the practice we went to had a policy that an IC for an individual cannot also be MC to the couple. I suspect this is to erase any appearance of the MC taking sides.

Like Owl's, our MC basically acted as referee and tried to help each of us understand what the other was feeling, and she offered tips on how to communicate better. She took both of us to task for various things that needed working on.

Hey Eagle,

I checked your thread yesterday and I'm glad to see you've decided to give it a bit more time. I didn't have time then, I but did want to address what you posted about the steps for recovery a couple of pages back.


Reading it in context, it makes a lot more sense. I'm looking at that list as something that has to happen in order for recovery to be complete but, not as something that happens all at once! It's more of a road map that you can look back on someday and say.. oh, this fell into place then that fell into place... etc.

Many of the steps are probably sequential and somewhat dependent upon other steps and that's why it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that they'd all happen at once.

One thing to bear in mind is that recovery is a process not an event. Your wife isn't going to wake up one day and make all those changes - they'll happen gradually, over time, as you BOTH work on it. Some will go faster than others. Often, the initial steps are both the hardest and the longest.

I imagine this isn't what you want to hear because I know you've said you're tired and are having a hard time being patient. Do you think it would help if you thought of some of the steps as being sequential and dependent upon one another?

First, you have to open lines of communication. First, you have to establish honesty and saftey. First, you have to both recover from the maelstrom of emotions enough to think clearly in order to be able to make a committment to do some of the harder and more intricate steps (such as 'feeling someone's pain' or 'putting aside your own emotions in order to comfort and support.' First, you both have to decide to work together and not seperately. Before all those firsts happen, nothing else can be built because there's simply no foundation upon which to build. That means you might have to wait for her to get to some of the firsts before you can move on to any of the seconds.

It's a bit like Maslov's hierarchy of needs. First you've got to get the basic steps in place.. hammered down and firmly rooted. Then you can build on the next level up, then on the next level, then on the next level.

This isn't an effort to get you to 'shut your pie hole.' Shutting your pie hole and withdrawing isn't helpful either - except as it allows you to catch your breath, regroup, and gather some strength. Do that, if you need it. You have to take care of yourself - but bear in mind that while you don't control your wife, you certainly have influence in what happens in this. You're far from powerless!

So, for right now, I think it's wise to 'be still.' Let things process... let things move a bit on their own.. focus a bit more on some healthy ways for you to offload some of that anger within you. Do you work out? What do you find works off excess energy/emotion for you?


Mys

GBH,

I went to IC a couple of times, then scheduled W and I together for MC. About 4 or 5 times in a row we saw for MC, the last time she went (SF and level playing field discussion) she got mad and refused to go even if she was here in town. It was/is supposed to be MC, but she got mad and refused to go. To date, other than the interview with our MCs wife for her IC, she hasn't pursued any type of counseling, I may be wrong, but she hasn't mentioned anything to me about it. I continued to go to the same counselor, I think he is pretty good, doesn't use MB, but a religious program that is so similar the differences are small. He discussed SF and leveling the playing field with her based on 3 or 4 previous meetings with both of us. I did not see him as an IC again until she refused to continue counseling with him. Originally I had 2 IC appts right after D-Day, and then we saw him together as MC whnever she was here in town. Our MC did the same, acted as referee and gave us basic communication stuff to work/practice on, it all fell by the wayside after she got mad with him.

myschae,

I did not expect her to do everything at once and she had read the original posts I copied from, I just wanted her to have the same roadmap so we would be going down the same road together. Please understand I klnow very little about her A as whenever it is brought up things get ugly, from both sides. She really doesn't want to talk about it. I asked her about telling it like a story, timeline of events, or like a book you would read. I've read from a few posts that some BSs take the information better if it is told like a story unfolding, I guess it somehopw makes it easier to digest the information and keeps BS from gettting all worked up. The same posts recommend taking notes, not of teh story, but of questions that BS might have as the story progresses, but very important to not interupt the story. At least that is what I got out of it and it seemed to amke sense. I also thought it may make it easier for me to ehar and her to tell as opposed to a Q&A session or sessions or even worse something that makes her feel like she's living the Inquisition thing.

I understand the process, but feel that everything she's done so far has been for show, so she can say see I tried, but you screwed it up. Probably wrong, but when she gets upset she always falls back on I give up I want out I want a D. Last time she saud that was Martin Luther King Weekend.

I am trying to "be still". Killing energy, especially anger is hard at the moment, it's too cold to ride my Harley, and my Z-28 is broken. The Z-28 should be fixed in a couple of weeks, and when the weather warms up I will be all over the place on the bike. She likes to ride as well so it may be therapudic for her, I know it is for me. In the Z it's about speed, the rush of very quick acceleration and pushing it to the limit, the sheer power. On the bike it's about being out not speed or power, not about a thrill seeking kind of thing. It's about letting my mind and the bike run free, not fast, just cruising, looking at the scenery, relaxing, no time limit, no destination, just cruising and taking it easy until I feel good, then turn around and cruise back and I feel even better. The way I imagine a bird feels flying in lazy circles, not a care in the world, wind in your face, living the here and now, not thinking about the past or future, just the experience of now. It's a mental release of sorts I guess. Almost like an addiction, I really enjoy riding.

(Bump for some input)

I'm trying as hard as I can. I'm being quiet and not provoking anything. I am not going to let myself be sucked into an argument. Trucking down bourbon street la da da da .......

I am talking with my lawyer. It is going to be expensive, it will be ugly, but I have to protect myself and my kids!

I see you are posting over on the divorce forum.

Yes I am. I used to be a boy scout, I must be prepared. I should have followed your advice and not read her thread, but I found some things very hurtful and not very hopeful. Sooooo I'm looking for advice there as well.

I fessed up to her that I read her posts and was hurt by them. She calls it honesty, I disagree. I can be completely honest with someone and not be hurtful about it or I can be really ugly about my honesty. I feel she continues to try to be ugly and call it honesty so I have to be prepared. If you get a hurricane watch you start preparing, if you get a warning, depending on the severity, cat 1 - 5, you must decide to either ride it out or evacuate, I'm not evacuating yet, but am getting ready to if the sitch warrants it.

She won't budge, won't answer tough questions when asked, not by me I don't ask tough questions anymore, but when the great people on this board coem out to help, you included, very high on my list of great folks, they do deserve an answer so they can formulate educated decisions and offer the appropriate advice. This is the same thing I get. So for lack of information I must "Be Prepared". She might view this as an pre-emptive strike, it's not, but I feel it must be done.

Please understand I have not given up, and I do continue to fight the good fight, I am trying to "be still". We are talking, but she still wants D first. What else can I say. She refuses to answer Mel's questions, why I can only guess, but they are the same questions I have asked, talked to my IC about and the response I get is "she's just trying to wait you out, run your patience out, make you cave."

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />Please keep posting to me as I appreciate your wisdom and knowledge along with everyone else, everyone here you, Mel, JL, Longhorn, GBH, Mortarman, and too many others to name that I have had the pleasure of recieving advice from, and all the advice was great. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Each and everyone of you are a gift from heaven, at least to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I will continue, but am also preparing for the worst case. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Thank you,

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />Chuck <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

She is aware that I have an appt Thursday. She doesn't seem to care.

The house in OKC closes Tuesday, so I can pay off bills. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I did not ask her to stop posting I continue to encourage her posts. I believe it has helped and would continue to help, but she is very stubborn, I fear this is another issue that she's decided to dig her heel in and not budge on. Just like wanting a D. She's never learned to "choose her battles wisely" IMHO. This is a lesson I learned the hard way and still struggle with. She's mad and the pendulum has swung to the extreme. She's like this alot, I've gotten used to it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Nothing seems to make her happy. I think our 2hrs tonight will be a cruise around town and maybe a walk in the mall, if I can get her out of the house. No R or M talk just talk and walk and drive. Used to work might work again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Your 15 hours together are supposed to be having fun, not talking relationship.

I also suggest that you involve her in where the money goes from the sale of the house. Make her your partner.

I will try to involve her, but she says because I inherited it she won't discuss it. I offered to pay off all bills, answer NO, pay for her D, answer NO, pool, NO.

We rode around talked about kids, her job offer, another job offer she turned down. She just seems really sad, I would think that after all the D talk and everything else she would be happy. I guess I can't do anything right in her eyes. She asked for it, I finally caved, and now I'm the bad guy again. I haven't talked R or M at all today, just let her know that she was going to get her wish. Now she's unhappy. What's up with that??? Just because I file doesn't mean it will happen, just means I've got my ducks in a row. If all works out it is very easy to pull the plug. This is the same lawyer who told me to try and work it out as no one wins in a D. His advice made me want to fight harder for M, but I feel like I've been banging my head against a wall. So I'm very confused again. I should be used to it by now I guess.

You are posting on the divorce board. How can she be happy about that?

Personally, I think she is making much more effort than 95% of WS's do.

I would not use the money for a divorce or lawyer. What a waste! I would put it aside and wait until she can POJA with you about how to use it.

Come on eagle, you're a smart guy. Can you not see that his established relationship with you as IC could very well make him less than objective (either perceived or real) when dealing with both of you as MC? IMHO, it borders on unethical for one counselor to take on both roles. And I'm not so sure his wife ought to be her IC either. Way too close, IMHO.

I know if our MC started to take sides during our sessions either one of us would have been out the door.

I will check for a new MC, she hasn't to my knowledge checked for IC. Might help, might not. Can't hurt. I do believe that when he talked to her and heard what she had to say he was quite taken aback. In our lst meeting of MC he even stated that after hearing what she had to say he was surprised I even wanted to continue working on M.

I don't believe he was taking sides though as he has gunned me down in her presence as well.

Eagle, if obectivity is not the problem, then what do you think her issue is? Does it stem from the fact that she is so fogged out? The more fogged out, the more averse most WS's are to good counselors.[they want the mollycoddlers that tell them what they want to hear, of course] Harley is an excellent counselor but he manages to tick off the real fogged out, deluded WS'. Do you think that is the issue?

It could be. I have talked to Jennifer a couple of times, I asked W if she wanted to talk, as Jennifer would like to talk to her, but no pressure if she didn't want to talk that's OK, she said NO, then she saw the CC bill and was not happy. I would love to have her talk to Jennifer or Steve, but until I 0 bal a couple of CCs that's not going to happen this week, maybe next week, if I can get her to talk.

We talked this morning, I said I would like her to continue to post, she said her posts upset me so she won't, I said that is my problem and I will deal with it and I think posting helps. Don't know which way she will go, the pendulum swings to the extreme, never in the middle.

Mel,

If you read her last post it says it all. Poor little fat girl, never could attract the handsome, outgoing, rugged, jock. Now that she is thin, she attracted one, acted on it, and doesn't want to come back. The problem with that is that type of guy will eventually see the stretch marks, sagging breasts, etc... and drop her for a younger, firmer "hottie", but she can't see it. The Shallow Hal Syndrome"

Nothing I can do about it.

Eagle - You are in rare form the last couple of days - from a pound of liver to stretch marks and sagging breasts. Are you interested in saving your marriage, or getting "even" with your wife?

Saving. Just discussing issues. Not getting even, stating facts. At 39 most women are sagging or starting to, and after she lost enough weight to cause me to think maybe she was buleimic or annorexic, to cause me to ask if she was OK, how much more was she planning to lose or had she reached her goal, I was extremely concerned. My sister was visiting at the time also and asked if she was OK because she was so skinny.

My response to her weight loss was not what she wanted to hear. She expected me to look at her a a young thin Hottie, maybe what she never understood was I have always looked at her like that. I have never complained about her weight, I think her stretch marks are badges of courage for bearing our children, to be worn proudly. I understand that age causes parts to sag, I understand that age and responsibility causes us to get out of shape, and we can't do the things we used to do when we were 20.

I have always complemented her, thought she looked good, told her that the older she gets the better she looks, and I believed it then and I believe it now, I wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it. It's not what she wants to hear, and a 48 year old computer guy is obviously not what she wants.

When she had to go to Japan, we agreed that our marriage was strong enough, almost all of our friends agreed as well. I ahd no idea she was so unhappy until D-Day. One of her main causes of unhappiness and mine as well has been her insistance on having many male friends, yes she has tried to get me to be friends with them, but when I was on Active duty, I was TDY a lot, when I was home I wanted to spend time with her and kids, I didn't need to be out and be seen. I don't need to flirt to feel good about myself, I don't need other women to tell me I look good to feel good about myself. I only needed to please her and ahve her tell me to feel good about myself.

Apparently there is nothing i can do! Am I wrong here?

She is at the attorney's office as I type this. We talked during lunch, not much, but a little. She was deeply hurt by my response to her weight loss, but let me ask any of you, if you had NOT seen your S for 6 months, and they lost around 35lbs (not sure exactly, but it looked like a lot to me) would you be concerned? She wanted me to say Wow you look great, not "Honey are you OK, are you sick, do you have cancer?" I was deeply concerned and worried about her weight loss and her health, I guess I really blew it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Eagle-

You know what...there are ways of saying things, and then there are other ways of saying things.

Look at how you phrased the things you said earlier about your wife. Nothing in there in any way meant to be uplifting, caring, loving, constructive, etc...

Nope...you DELIBERATELY chose words that were hurtful, negative, disrespectful, etc...

I tried to make this point earlier to both of you, and it's very clear by both of your threads that neither of you at this point is emotionally mature enough to take in the data. I swear, your thread and hers just reminds me of a pair of sixth-graders trying to hurt each other! All EITHER of you do is attack the other...not once have I seen a single kind, thought out comment on either thread.

At this point, unless one or more of you can grow up a little, I can't offer you any further advice or hope. At this point, neither one of you truly care about trying to REPAIR YOUR MARRIAGE AND FAMILY...you're more concerned with getting the last, most hurtful comment in. When/if you can get past this point, please send a shout out on the board and I'd be glad to offer whatever advice I can then.

Sheesh!

I would want my H to say, "WOW! Baby you look GREAT!" So yea, from a womans perspective, you blew that one.
Maybe somebody can answer me this question...Is the purpose of Plan A sort of like that old adage.."You can catch more flies with honey than you can with vineger?"
If that be the case, Do you have cancer wouldnt be in the honey catagory. Neither would your signature line.

But these are my observations from a saggy boob, over 40 stretched out mom. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Eagle, can you email me please.

OMG, that is so bad I am speechless! CHUCK!

Mel,

She had, in my opinion, great curves before she lost any weight, I didn't ask her to lose weight, never ever said she was fat or even hinted at it because I never thought she was fat. When I saw her after being away from her for around 6 mos, I was shocked. My sister was also shocked. It really did appear that she had a problem, at least to me, she felt she looked great and after the intial shock wore off I thought so too, but I was worried about her health and scared of losing her to an illness. I have appologized for that ever since, but apparently it didn't and doesn't make a difference.

My sig line has changed due to her strong desire for a D.

I understand honey vs vineagar, but understand I had not seen her for almost 6 months, she lived in OKC, and I live in Huntsville, just moved there in April with a teen daughter and pre teen son. Her weight loss was dramatic for me. She could have been on a commercial for weight loss products, you know the ones that have the disclaimer on the bottom that say this weight loss is not typical for everyone. The commercials that make you get your credit card out right now and order in the next 5 minutes whether or not there is a bonus. Her weight loss was very dramatic for me and a little tramatic.

Imagine your H being gone for 6 mos, yes you talk to him a couple of times a day, you are aware he is on a diet, and when he gets home he looks like the guy on the bowflex commercial. Like I said before she was not fat, she was under the AF standards for her age and height, but she wasn't happy.

Now for you guys imagine your wife, being gone for 6 mos, yes you talk to her a couple of times a day, you are aware she is on a diet, and when she gets home she looks like a skinny Hale Berry. I was very worried and concerned for her health.

I have never had an issue with my Ws weight, she has always looked good to me. The AF on the other hand did, she is now where she wants to be weight wise. It has always been her issue, I've worried about her weight loss though and sometimes the extremes whe went through to lose weight and meet the AFs standard, this is why I was concerned about her health. Laxatives, body wraps, sauna's, etc...

What more can I say. If I had been ridding her about her weight then yup I'm getting just what I deserved, but I have always thought she looked great and told her so often.
Sorry, I'm all screwed up.

I can understand you being concerned for her weight loss and it being a shock to you. But being the ripe old age you are, you should know that you dont say to your wife you havent seen in 6 months...Are you sick? Do you have cancer? when you should be huggin her and tellin her how great she looks! Those questions could have waited a day or two or never. Even my teenage boys knew you didnt say stuff like that to girls.

Yes, I am giving you a hard time over this one deal. But being that I am an AF wife and my WH just retired...I can see the military strictness all over your marriage. In both of you. Are you retired now, sir? And were you a senior NCO? Just curious. Your list of things you had for her to do reminded me of the numerous af rules and regulations.
Do you think you have brought a lot of your job home with you to your marriage? I mean, do you sometimes see your wife as one of your airman since she is AF as well? Know what I mean? Instead of seeing and treating her with tenderness of a lover and friend instead of her CO?

I am not judging you here. I just wondered if you have thought of these things.

Cathy

Yes I have thought of these things, and yes I am a retired MSgt, last 6 years working at a MAJCOM HQ. I have inspected places and people, I don't think I look at my W as one of my airmen, could be though.

I can't say for sure I said "do you have cancer, she just told me that today. I probably did say it though.

I have always been very direct and to the point, always been told my tact and diplomacy was not what it could be, when Colin Powell was Sec State, a few folks told me not to hold my breath for a job offer from him.

In a jam and when the chips are down though I have always been the go to guy if you want the plain unvarnished truth and want something fixed.

I dearly love my wife, but can't tell her because it makes her mad. I have never held back from her, she has always known how much I love her, not just with words, but in actions and deeds. She has never doubted my love for her, on D-Day and after until she said ILY was over the top, she never had to wonder where I stood or where she stood in our relationship. She is and was the love of my life, we always talked about growing old together, sitting on the porch holding hands, floating in the pool together when we retired, etc... She is 39, I'm 48, we talked about and I have tried to set up my retirement plan so when I retire she can to.

I have always held her in high esteem, even when we were dating she never had to question where my heart was. If you go to her thread ask her about a retirement we went to when we were at Patrick AFB NCO Club, when we were dating. Her girlfriends wanted to knock a girl out, she knew no matter how hard the other girl tried I wouldn't even notice her. She had to tell me about it after we got home. I had no idea what was going on, I just knew I was with her and took care of her, brought her food and drink, checked on her regularly to be sure her glass was not empty and if she needed anything. I would still do that for her today if we went anywhere.

My point here is I did not mean to make her mad I was and am truly concerned for her and her health.

No excuses though I have screwed the pooch in a very serious and bad way. I know now I can't fix this and apparently I will not recover from it.

You CAN recover from it. If you LEARN from it, and quit making the same mistake over and over and over and over.

Look, you're not acting here...you are simply reacting.

I'm ex-military. Ex-Army NCO myself. So you and I both know that you never do ANYTHING without a plan. And that you don't just have one plan, but several.

And...unless something CHANGES that plan, you don't deviate from it regardless of what someone tries to do to get you to do so.

I see no plan here. There is no plan here on how to make it through this. All I see is two people taking shots at each other.

Stop taking shots at her...even if she takes them at you.

Get your plan together...if you had one, re-visit it and re-shore it up. Start taking into account the things you've learned about her, and work out a better plan. Start ACTING according to your plan, and simply REACTING to everything she says/does.

If your plan remains to just sit there and react emotionally to every single thing she says and does, then you're right, you have no hope of recovery. Because neither of you are truly willing to do the WORK it takes to get there.

Sure, you're tired of the fight. But you know what, you're wasting more energy taking these cheap shots at her and at REACTING than you are fighting. You're like a boxer who gets in the ring and just swings and swings and swings...no plan, no strategy...just trying to block and counter punch his way through 10 rounds. That is the fastest way to wearing yourself to exhaustion.

So...what's the plan? Or are you just giving up?

Owl,

The plan I ahve is to try and follow MB to a T, but it takes 2. I also have to protect the kids. I am not giving up, I am not a quitter. I do have a tendency to speak my mind and PC rarely is a part of it. I speak from the heart, usually after giving issues considerable thought. Dealing with this type of problem is very different than dealing with flag officers and briefing MAJCOM CCs. I was very good at that and am good at briefing the customers for the company I work for. I ahve never had to hold my tongue as WW used to hold the same type of beliefs, and believe it or not could almost read my mind. She could finish my snetences for me at any time. Now, to quote from AF PME she "listens to refute, not understand." I will work on getting a plan in writting this afternoon, when it's done I would appreciate your set of eyes and knowledge looking it over, bleed all over it if you have to, I will make appropriate changes, alot liek staff review, I would liek a good solid plan that will work, I wnat this to work.

I do feel I am too close to this to have a completely objective POV so your review is and wouldbe very important to me.

Owl, thank you for chiming back in and helping and not giving up on us.

Chuck

Oh, no, not a plan in writing.........

At work, do you compare your customers to a pound of chopped liver?

Believer,

Are you being funny, sarcastic, trying to push my buttons or what???

And by the way it is not chopped liver, the way the joke goes in the military is it just liver, the same way you see it in the butchers display case.

I don't screw my customers, so no I don't refer to them as any type of liver.

So exactly why are you busting my stones???

Pretending I'm believer...

Well, somebody has to!

Now just being me...

Eagle...I want you to know that your posts and your wifes are a contribution to this board and to people's lives.

Thank you for being here, very much.

LA

Eagle - I don't know what to say to you. Chopped liver, liver, who cares? I still have lots of hope for you and your wife, believe it or not. I think the two of you are going to make it, despite yourselves.

Thank you,

We cleaned the garage yesterday so we could put her Surburban back in. She had ideas of where to put stuff, no not in my behind, and it worked well. Just waiting for the trash man to haul stuff away and burn some stuff tonight, like the waterbed I bought for us just before we were married, we concieved our children in, slept in our whole married life, and she tainted with her A. Yup there will be a big fire today. Other than that not much is going on.

She did mention we would all move to FL if I get the job. I was surprised as she refers to everything in this hous as mine, not hers, to the kids, "it's in your fathers room, etc... I narrowed the selection down to this house and 1 other she liked this house, I put in the hard wood floors in the color she wanted. 2600sq ft, brand new, 3 car garage, 3/4 acre to make her happy. I could ahve lived in 1500 - 2000 for a lot less money and been happy, but some of her GFs in Fl had mentioned in the past that she needed the house she deserved. I had the chance so I got it for us. Still nothing.

I am here, being still, no R or M talk, just doing my thing. I am not outdoorsey stud, used to be when I was in my 20s, but I had a career, wife and kids, finish degree, responsibilities, no time for a lot of play. The things I did want to do she always told me we couldn't afford. Now we can and I'm basically alone.

Yes it does really hurt that I and our kids are paying for all the mean things the kids of her childhood did to her. I aske her how she could do that to us after enduring that for so many years, answer: Deer in the headlights look and silence. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

<<<BUMP>>>

Hi Eagle,

It is slow here today. But thought I would drop a note and see how you are doing today.

Pretty good, has been a calm day, just DD giving WW a hard time.

Is she still a WW? If so, how could it be good. Tolerable maybe but not good.

You deserve much better than that.

JMHO,
L.

I don't think she's still a WW, I don't know for sure. She is in NC, says she's working on M as best she can, still won't wear rings though. I guess I should change it to FWW or what?

She is going to orientation for new job this morning, 7:30 - 5:00. Tomorrow she has in clinic orientation, don't know when. Closing on OKC house tomorrow sometime. Hopefully this will be the end of that ugly chapter in our lives.

How do you get over something like "I was finally able to attract teh type of man I always wanted."? Makes me feel like 20yrs I've known her was all a lie. Definitely a death blow to the crotch, hurt as bad as D-day maybe worse.

Oh good grief Eagle this isn't a military battle plan, it's an M for crying out loud! I'm not sure M recovery would dovetail that well into formal written military-style plans.

Back to a little piece of advice that worked for my BH and me but you have never acknowledged, despite my posting it many times. I even think other people have recommended this, too. Do fun stuff together. Your kids are old enough so you can do things as a family if you choose, or do stuff as a couple. Have you even considered just going out and doing something fun? It could be something you did when you were first dating and falling in love, or maybe going through the recreational companionship inventory and agreeing enthusiastically on something new to try. Just take a break from the A talk and R talk and written plans and what not and just go out have do something fun together. Please? Pretty please? At least consider it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ya know, Eagle, I'm wondering if that's a bit of fog talk or rewriting of history. Keep in mind there is so much more to a man than that rugged and outdoorsey image. I sure can understand why that hurts, though. Wish I knew what to say, but I can't think of anything at the moment except to say it all sounds kind of superficial, the same as her being more attractive to him because of the lost weight.

We have and we are, we haven't A or R talked in about 3 days. It's hard though when she will not provide any input,all I get is "whatever you want, I just do as I'm told!" So I don't tell her what to do, just ask and if she doesn't respond I get on with something I want to do, I ask if she would like to help or participate, sometimes she answers, sometimes not. Either way I have things I have to do, she did ask if I wanted help with garage this weekend I said yes and she helped alot. It was nice to work together toward a common goal. I also cooked this weekend, she helped and it was nice. Are things getting better? Seems like it. I sure hope so.

This morning she had to go to orientation for her new job, I asked if she wanted to wear her rings, she said no I'm not working today. What's that mean? I said OK continue to advertise you aren't married, not a problem. She then made a big deal that I'm not wearing mine either, jsut took mine off recently, I said well I guess you're right I'm not, just waiting for you to tell me when you feel ready for us to wear them again. She says go get mine, ALRIGHT I'll wear them. Probably an LB, but who knows? Only the shadow and FWW that's who. I'm just truckin' ladadodaday

Hmmm... possibly a response to your list of what she must do? Not sure if that ever got to her, but if it did...


Baby steps are good. Better than no steps at all.


From an FWW perspective, that comes across as R talk and pressure. But I never took my rings off, so I can't say for sure, but it just sounds like pressure.


You got me! No idea!


Ya THINK?? I would say that yes, a bitter sarcastic remark in response to her pushing back after pressure from you would probably qualify as an LB.

Things didn't start to get better between my H and me until he stopped approaching the sitch with a heavy hand and instead started using a softer touch. In Harleyesque terms (and this was before I ever visited this site) he stopped the LBs and SDs and started to Plan A. It worked.

Do you consider your list of demands, written military-style plan, and sarcasm all parts of Plan A? I'm thinking they might not come across that way, but that's just my VHO, which I'm sure will again put me in the doghouse here.

The list of demands was not enforced, she still doesn't know all of it, she briefly read them and said OK, but alot of water has gone under the bridge since.

No dog house for you.

Eagle,

Her actions indicate she is stll a WS. Living on the edge of being a WS but definitely carries the traits.

This is not good and she is subtly trying to make you cross your boundaries.

BTW, do you know what your boundaries are?

That ring indicent was you attempt at manipulating her. Did it make you feel better? I think not. So don't use that tactic. Instead give her back her guilt. She doesn't wear her ring.....you make sure she knows the M isn't in recovery. You tell her YOUR boundaries for YOU, not for her convience but what you setup and implement for you and your family.

The more you present issues to her as coming from you and your family, the stronger you stance.

Remember you want the WS OUT of your life. Right now the WS is allowed to hang around and come out when convienent. Make the WS' life miserable so your W can come back.

Whem she makes those stupid comments about finally meeting the kind of man she wants.......I would babble back something like:

WS: Well I finally met the kind of man I want t/d with.

BS: Oh, does he know? We'll have to go warn him.

WS: What do you mean?

BS: Most men don't like to hear a WS is on the prowl. A few stupid ones might but only for a while. Real men like their women to walk and talk with them, not crawl after them.

See how u r difusing the WS attitude?

JMHO,
L.

Yup got it

Thank you Orchid.

Just another thought.....even if the Xws were to see this info....that's ok..... alright?

RE: Ws & Xws' don't digest this stuff well anyway. Their attempts at sabatogue (sp???) against a good plan.....is futile. LOL!!!

BS' have more endurance. WS' have short attention spans....they tend to create a lot of havoc but their energy for it doesn't last long.

In fact, the more they try to trip up a BS with a good plan, the harder they fall.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

OK Eagle...so, are you now divorcing instead of attempting to save your marriage???

I say this based on a post of yours on another thread.

Look...reconciliation and divorce are mutually exclusive...one works at complete odds to the other.

So, which is it? No point in offering you further advice or assistance if you're now going to divorce. Let us know.

Eagle?

She asked for it, then went silent and said a few things that make me think she's not sure, I'm having papers drawn up and held, they will be dropped if and when necessary, but only then. This is not an attempt to do anything but CYA. Ducks in a row etc...

The plan was and still is MB, just right now we are apparently on hiatus as everytime I think about R or M she slays me, don't have to speak, just think.

This weekend she got into it with DD saying DD is disrespecting her just like me. I ask how so, DD won't do anything she tells her. I said Oh and had DD take care of business, asked FWW to be a little more even handed with DD vs DS, see you still disresp me. Fog? Babble? I'm afraid to even post that here. Soo I'm in limbo keeping my eyes open and when the fog clears maybe she will help with MB, until then all I can do is try to be the best me I can.

I feel like I'm standing in the middle of a room with 1 foot nailed to the floor and going around in circles. Part of me wants to drop a nuke on the sitch and get it over, but part says make it right for me, W and kids, that's the part I'm listening to right now and have been.

It is very frustrating when I get beat up by FWW, then by some here (not U BTW, but others) for speaking my mind and or posting my heartfelt thoughts, tact and diplomacy are not my strong suit, I am not PC, but when I speak it is from the heart and I will follow thru.

Understand that I have to protect my end here, so far she hasn't tried to show anything concrete except her desire for D. I told her I don't do D, but she is wearing me down and if it comes to D well it will be one he11 of a fight. My kids said this weekend they do not want anything to do with W if there is a D, they want to live with me and not visit W ever as she has destroyed their lives and family. DS has told her he doesn't want to be a D Kid. No visible feelings about that from her sooo what do I do???

I started working on a plan, a couple of posters go balistic about a written military type plan, OK tehn wing it and go down in flames? Sit back and wait for fog to clear? Do the revenge A thing? I have been trying to be still and quiet, we had a pretty good weekend, but I still have to CYA.

Ideas? Advice? Please help!

Eagle,

U must be a BS because BS' never do anything right in the eyes of a WS. LOL!! Get it? A bit of MB humor here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ok, you make your plans for you. All the more reason to keep your children about you so that when the WS lashes out, you can all cover for each other.

I went the D route, checked out my options.....however, I did not let the WS know I was doing this..... the D was to happen on my terms and in my time, not the WS' terms and time. That's the key......you don't do what the WS tells u t/d. You do what you need WHEN u need t/d it.

L.

Well, IMHO, it doesn't matter if you write out your plan or not...nor do I truly feel that you have to share it with anyone at this point if you're not ready to.

From my perspective, I don't care if you have it written down as a complete OPORD or FRAGO...or if it's all in your mind. I simpy feel that you have to GET a plan, and stick to it. Right now, you're flailing around simply lashing out because you don't have a plan.

Get a plan...it will help you get your feet back under you and get you moving in the right direction.

Again, quit focusing on how she makes you feel, on how she's acting, what she's doing, etc... GET TO A COUNSELOR THAT YOU BOTH CAN WORK WITH...this is critical in my eyes.!!!!

Work on what YOU can fix...and actually LISTEN to her when you can get her to respond to things so that you can clearly understand what areas she feels you can improve.

Bluntly, I would give her the same advice. I still think that the two of you need to re-learn a LOT on how to deal with each other. You're both so ingrained in BAD HABITS that you simply don't even understand what it is you're doing wrong.

You repeatedly 'defend' your method of talking bluntly, etc... STOP IT!

I'm ex-Army...NCO for many years. I too am a BLUF (bottom line up front) kind of guy. But, while I may be blunt (LOL...for example, look at all of my posts to you and your wife!), I do not attack when I talk. I don't retaliate verbally, I try to be very thoughtful about how what I say will be taken. You need to learn to do this and apply that...STARTING RIGHT NOW.

And your wife needs to do the same thing. It's so frustrating trying to advise the two of you when it looks to us like all you're truly interested in doing is getting the last, most hurtful word in.

So...STOP attacking each other, no matter what the other person says or does.

ACTIVELY take measures to find a good MC that you BOTH can use to improve your marriage.

WORK on finding that FRIEND you used to have in your spouse...and work on becoming their friend again as well.

THESE are the baby steps I think the two of you need to start with.

Quit ALL talk or action pertaining to divorce...unless that's what you want to do. Again...working on divorce will destroy your effort to reconcile...and vice versa.

Just my thoughts.

Wouldn't a good plan be the Harley's Plan A? Just a thought.

Plan A is for negotiating an END to the affair. The affair is over.

Yup it would and I'm still trying, but as you already know you can't make deposits unles W allows it, so far the bank is closed. If you know how to open it I'm open to suggestions.

Mel,

I guess I'm back to just working on me then.

Owl, believer, others,

I have taken your advice, cancelled Attorney appt, asked tempest to delete my thread in D/D and changed my sig. I am trying to follow MB plan no AO, DJ or anything else that would be considered an LB. I have offered an "Olive branch" yet again and was told I am still not showing respect because I don't want to go out all the time, I don't want to meet her new male friends, etc...

So what should I expect now?

I will continue to work on me, take care of the kids and live my life. I will ask her to join me if I do go out, yes or no I will go anyway.

Life goes on and I guess I have to take things at her pace, baby steps and day by day. Crappy way to live, no plans for future, just see what each day brings, hope for best expect worst, anything better makes it a wonderful day?

Working on saving and rebuilding a stronger marriage. I need to get her on board, but nothing works. Any advice on how to do that? I want the nuclear option, no more of this baby step ******! I want the real deal, timelines, milestones etc...

GBH,

Pack sand!

believer,

Pack Sand!

This is a war to recover my M you are either with me or against me. No more BS!

Making the choice on what your goal is was your first step. You can't do anything without knowing what you want to do first.

Here's the problem tho. There is NO nuclear option. Your marriage has/had flaws and problems for years...just like the rest of ours. And it's going to take time to repair all of that damage...to include what led up to her A, the damage from the A, and all of the fallout since. We've discussed a few of the things that you both need to change in order to have a better marriage...communication, compromise, etc... You need to get into an effective MC program (THAT BOTH OF YOU CAN SUPPORT) to start on that.

No one can give you timelines/milestones/etc...and it's pretty unrealistic to expect that any of us could. Even your MC (whomever you end up with) won't/can't give you that kind of answer...it doesn't work that way. It's dependent on you and your wife more than anything else. If you want a good marriage with your wife...be prepared to roll up your sleeves and do some HARD, LONG work.

Quit trying for the quick fixes...settle for the little victories, and pay attention to your progress over time. Start with the things I've recommended to you...quit pressuring her to just suddenly let go of everything and be happy again...too much baggage for that to happen out of the blue. Fix your friendship with her first. This does NOT mean that you both should start acting like you're not married...just reduce the pressure on the the things that are too hard to manage right now. Focus on what you CAN improve right now, and work on a game plan to deal with those things that are out of your scope at the moment.

Again, this does not mean that you should condone anything that is contrary to rebuilding your marriage. It means that you've got time to fix this...so pace yourself.

I know this isn't the answer that you want to hear...but it's the only answer I've got.

How long it takes is up to the BOTH of you...you need to find out what's most effective in helping HER too, not just yourself.

So, you want to get started? Go get some recommendations for good MC's in your area, and have a list to sit down with your W and review tonite. And if she says she doesn't care, ask her what her preferences are...male, female, older, younger, etc... and do your best to meet what criteria you both can agree on. Call them in the morning and get this moving.

You two are already doing the 15 hours a week. GREAT...so keep it fun, and totally off-limits for R/A/M talk. Make it FUN...make it something you both look forward to! Ask your W what she would like to do...compromise where you can.

Go look at a book that I truly credit with helping to save my marriage..."20 (Surprisingly Simple) Rules and Tools For a Great Marriage!" by Dr Steve Stephens. My wife and I read a chapter a night...they're short. See if you can get her to agree to that.

Schedule time to talk about the A/R/M...outside of your 15 hours. STICK TO THE SCHEDULE. Keep it short, do NOT let either person run over. And...DROP the discussion when time is up...pick up where you left off when you come back. Keep a journal of what's discussed then so you can do so.

I've given you the 'baby steps' here and in my other posts...now it's up to you. I know you don't want to accept that it's going to take time to do this...but the sooner you do so, the sooner you'll be moving forward.

Owl,

Thanks, I will post updates as they occur.

Huh... her ein the frozen north they tell us to pound sand, not pack it. Regional differences I guess.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Fine Eagle, you win. Go ahead and deploy your nuke bomb - continue to dictate what she is allowed to do when regarding housework, unpacking boxes, reading, posting here; keep comparing her to a pound of liver; go ahead with your battle plan. I sincerely wish you the best of luck because you're gonna need it.

Aside from my sarcasm, I think Owl offered excellent advice above regarding timing and baby steps. It would be great if you can muster up the patience to make that work.

Eagle,

I am a newbie here and have no real advice to offer. However, I feel your pain. Just wanted to post this to say you are not alone.

My WW accused me of not noticing the small things she has been doing last night. It seems both you and I want huge "big picture" changes. I think this is related to "lead, follow or get out of my way" thinking. Military people are typically doers, not thinkers.

LA keeps wacking me a 2x4 over the LBs that I create. I cannot just sit and wait for something to happen. It is very hard for me to stand by and let my W destroy our M. But I cannot control her. It hurts but I guess that it has to be slow and we have to very GODLIKE in our patience.

C-

Post deleted by Eagle15

Eagle-

I know that the last post wasn't aimed at me, but I did want to point out to you (again) that there IS NO QUICK FIX.

Even divorce isn't quick.

I'm sorry that you don't have a choice in the matter, but it's flat out reality that dictates that this is NOT going to be over soon.

Even if she decided to work on the marriage tomorrow...if she did a complete turn around...it's going to take you both MONTHS to deal with this. It normally takes AT LEAST 2 years to 'recover' from an affair...under the best of circumstances. You need to resign yourself to this...you can't change it.

The ONLY thing you can change in this whole situation is yourself.

Owl,

You are correct, I feel like I was baited and have deleted post. It was not aimed anywhere near you.

Please stick with me here.

G2KT,

Thanks, if I can help you please let me know. Take out all sarcasm and evil things and I may have some good info in there somewhere, otherwise listen to Owl, Longhorn, Melodylane, faithful follower and a ton of others . This is the place to be if you need help, but hsow a littl;e more patience than I ahve lately.

GBH, the advice Owl is offering is what I'm taking, I have vented frustration, gotta vent somewhere. Most BSs would love a nuclear option to end an A, I know there is no such option if you want to work M. So what is you plan road map etc... to help me with recovery??? Other than busting my stones you haven't given much advice other than to say Owl gives good advice, which he does by the way and I'm trying to follow albeit with some difficulty due to my desire to get this over with, so do you have anything to offer???

I am waiting!

In the mean time I will be [color:"blue"]trying my best to follow Owl's lead and advice.[/color]

Owl,

BTW FWW is working days right now, orientation, and hasn't posted or read since Fri, should be back on soon, I don't know when and won't push the issue, it's hers to decide. She should be back by weekend though she doen't like to post on weekends(guessing).

Eagle,

I seems that last night, I became a real hypocrite! I was a real horses a$$. Keep trying as no one is perfect. I really thought that I had a handle on it. Things did actually get better around midnight, but it was a painful night.

It seems that I cannot learn from my mistakes, let alone yours. Go figure...

C-

Yeah, some days just when you think you know the rules they change up on ya and WHAM back to square one. As if it's not hard enough already, dealing with women and feelings, then an A drops into your life, W becomes an alien and away we go on the roller coaster. The good thing is as time passes the good times outweigh the bad and eventually things get better.

Good luck ot you. Keep coming on here and we can talk. I'll give you what help I can, haha all good advice from the pros here, but I sometimes (most times) have a hard time following. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Take care

Being still, nothing happening. I feel like a bystander, just watching the world go by and my M stagnate. No LBs, just being together, she spends most of her time w/kids. 15 hours a week is sporadic at best. Just standing by and watching for signs of progress.

Alright...first off, suggest that she come back and post here when/if she can.

Second...GENTLY remind her that she's agreed to that 15 hours a week. And, that the two of you need to try to spend a good portion of this time WITH EACH OTHER...not spending it taking care of your family. That means that if at all possible, the two of you need to spend a few hours a nite doing something TOGETHER that isn't just taking care of the kids.

If she feels that this is unfair, ask her to post that on her thread so that she can get some advice from the people here.

But...do NOT attack when you talk about this. If she gets angry or defensive, YOU get quiet instead.

Again, the intent is NOT to blow off repairing your marriage...the idea is that it all doesn't have to be fixed right now. And, that the two of you WORK right now to fix your friendship first.

My idea anyway.

Owl,

She should start posting over the weekend, she was posting in the mornings, but is now doing the orientation thing this week and next and starts mids the following week. We have been together, but kids involved due to CAP and other issues. She still wants the 15 hrs, but kids stuff is making it later and later, last night started at 2020hrs. I haven't brought it up, just watching to see what's up.

She complained Tuesday that I wasn't wearing my ring, I said well are you ready for me to start wearing it again? she said I am wearing mine! So I started wearing mine again yesterday, she forgot hers, but has them on today. Funny thing is she only wears them to work, but expects me to wear mine all the time. Now this is not a problem for me as I ahve worn my ring up until a couple of weeks ago, I just find it strange. I haven't commented on that, but just curious about your thoughts and opinion.

I will remind her that we should be doing our time around 7 as 8 or after we both get tired around 9:30. I don't think she thinks it's unfair, just would rather spend time with kids.

Another strange thing is Tuesday night going to pick up DD on Redstone we had to go off base and back on (gate 9 is meesed up coming from main base/BX area), I told her I only know 1 way to get there and was trying to give directions, she went off about having to go off and on again and missed the U turn, we went further down the HWY and I said we need to get off go over the HWY and back the other direction, she passed a couple of turn offs (she ws in middle lane) finally got off HWY, I had no idea where we were and pointed out the sign showing the on ramp and directin we needed to go, she missed the turn lane and ramp all the while asking me turn here, here , here, I said I don't know just saw the sign you did repeated that I've never been on this road before and since she passed the lane and ramp make a U turn, she endded up turning into oncoming traffic, tahnk god no cars were coming, but DS said Mom we are going the wrong way! By now I was very frustraed ans said Honey if you would listen to me we can get back on the road, I have no idea where we are ve never been on this road, but you are seeing the same signs I am and you are behind the wheel. She got mad, I shut up, DS got real quiet and we finally got back on the road. My question is why would she be asking me weird questions about turn lanes, cant see white painted arrow telling her she is oging the wrong way etc... I tried like H to not LB, but I was very frustrated, the road was clearly marked and the turn lane as well. I should have been driving, but wasn't about to tell her to get out and let me drive (IMHO BIG LB). It was just strange to ahve her asking me every step of the way turn here, turn here or go straight when I clearly told here I ahve never been there before. I did ask her if her eyes were OK, very concerned, not making fun or being judgemental, said I felt she might be having trouble seeing at night and this was one of the things that caused me to go to the optomitrist for my new glasses. All I got was "My eyes are FINE!" Sooo I'm still confused and quiet.

Eagle:
What is your wife's name on here? I would be interested in reading her posts.
Thanks!

Well, don't know what to tell you except that you likely did the right thing by trying to defuse her anger when she got confused while she was driving. If that happens often, it's a definite safety concern.

Interestingly enough, I've been stationed several times at RSA...and even know the gate and roads you were talking about. Gate 9 is the one out by the Thiokol plant, isn't it?

Eagle15Tooo

Owl,

Not sure about Thiokol, but 255 turns into it (Rideout Road?) Is Thioko; sort of south west of base?? ( seems to go through center to NASA side and east of Aero club. Gate 3 goes right past BX and dead ends past Hosp and GC at Gate 9.

Trying to stay cool. She doesn't sleep on teh extreme edge of the bed anymore, is a little more friendly in the house. A lot of other small signs. Hope is still alive!

Eagle, I think you might have messed up a wee bit when you said (part bolded for emphasis):


Accusing her of failing to listen to you might have come across as a DJ. Not being there, I can't say for sure, but it's just a thought.

But I sure can understand confusion/frustration when driving in unfamiliar places. I can get totally dyslexic and stupid. Left is right, right is left, you got traffic here, traffic there, trying to see signs and painting on the pavement, two other people talking at you, etc. etc.

It's funny how sometimes driving can bring out frustration in people, especially if you're in unfamiliar territory. My H and I have had our share of conflicts when one of us was driving and the other riding shotgun. We've learned to take these things in stride and laugh about them later, once the immediate crisis is averted! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

As for your earlier question about when I was going to provide valuable advice, I'm trying. I was thinking of posting something quite similar to what Owl said, about how the sitch took years to develop and won't get fixed overngiht, but he beat me to it and I didn't think repeating the same old, same old would add any value.

GBH,
Repeating works for me, no harm done, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I appreciate it, I'm a guy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> with bad hearing anyway so repeat repeat repeat, no foul with that unless it upsets you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The reason I said "Honey if you would listen to me " was because before we even got close the the place I knew we needed to make a U-Turn I was trying to give the directions she asked for and had told her I only knew 1 way as I don't go there often. She started carrying on about on and off base, one of ehr major Pet Peeves si being interupted when talking, she is very good at it, but won't tolerate it, so I shut my mouth hoping she would be done complaining about the Army and we drove right past, then things started escalating when I said sorry to interupt but we needed to u turn back there and things really went South from there. We then proceeded to uncharted territory for me and it got even worse. But we did make it on time, picked up DD and friend, DS had to tell story and I kept my"Pie Hole Shut!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Rings and games with rings, it never seems to get better.
Games in general, we are not in HS, this is real life and gaming is a foolhardy thing to do, they effect everyone involved and it's just downright mean to continue playing these games!

What games are you referring to?
C-

Wearing rings taking them off, giving me grief about not wearing mine, same o same o. Asking a question and when I answer going nuts about tone or attitude, I always watch carefully for attitude, I do have a sharp wit and quick tongue, so I ahve to be careful. Not wanting to make a decision, ask her waht do you think?? getting BS answers full of attitude , snyde remarks.. Try to start a convo and either being ignored or pounced on because she apparently doesn't want to hear whaat I have to say or max attitude. You know the kind of stuff that just really gets under your skin. It never stops.

U ready to reverse babble and give her back her guilt which in turn will give you some relief?

L.

Orchid,

U bet!

Do u require coaching or u just need some support in that direction?

L.

Hi. You are my first post. Yes, your WW will most definitely benefit from this site. I myself am a WW going through withdrawl. I have been searching for someone in a similar situation to talk with. I'd be happy to talk with you AND your wife. I have so many questions to ask before offering any support. How long has it been since d-day? Do you have children? Has your wife ever suffered from depression, anxiety or bipolar disorder? My husband uses this site too, so maybe you two could hook-up. Have your wife read ALL of Dr. Harley's info. on this site before she begins to participate in a forum. Print it off for her, then leave her alone to read it. My H has nearly driven me out of my home with all the stuff he's been making me read, but it has slowed me down enough to stay. If you are committed to saving your marriage (as my H is), you're about to enter ******. You need to begin meeting your wife's
EN immediately, even if she is unreceptive. Print off Dr. Harley's list of them for yourself, refer to them often. When your wife is ready, do the EN Questionnaire. Hopefully I'm not telling you stuff you already know, I'm just trying to be helpful. It was difficult for us to begin using this site because it is so full of valuable info., but these are the things we started with. Keep trying. Stay strong.

Sorry, like I said, I'm new to this! I just realized the date in which you first posted, so my previous reply is most outdated I'm sure. I'd still enjoy hearing from you tho'! Thanks.

Orchid,

A little of both.

KJ,

Thank you for your help. Different perspectives are definitely welcome, espceially from FWWs. Youo can view my FWWs posts by searching for eagle15tooo.

I'm with Orchid on the reverse babble. See how that works. I am still stuck on trying to avoid LBs...

C-

Eagle,

Just got back into town and I find you are looking for the nuclear option. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Let me think, I don't recall THE EAGLE carrying nuc's <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, nor do I recall air to air fighters NOT having a plan. Further, my man what you need to do is consider intradiction (sp) as part of your battle plan.

One of the posters said
While I am inclined to agree with this statement, I don't know of a single successful mission, battle or war that was not won without a great deal of planning and thought, and most often the war was one of attrition. Hence my comment on interdiction (sp).

So what is it you are going after? Bridges? Depots? rail systems? what? My recommendation is you go after the depots where the RESENTMENT is stored, for it is the RESENTMENT that is fueling this war. That means careful recon to establish where the depots are, exactly what they contain, and how they are replenished.

Once you have done this a PRECISION plan of attack should be considered with many sortee's being required and the WILL to prosecute this war until victory is achieved.

Am I talking a language you understand Eagle? I hope so.

Go after the depot's of resentment one LB at a time, one DJ at a time, and with confidence that you are NOT knuckling under if you don't persue frontal assaults but go after the means by which these depots are resupplied.

Time for a plan Eagle and it should be a detailed one. THEN and ONLY THEN should you begin your campaign. So slow down, settle down, and think. Gather recon and the best way to do that is to be with yoru W as much as possible and REALLY REALLY listen to her and observe her. Don't feed her any LB's or DJ's ,just watch and listen and gather recon as to what you are doing to resupply those depots of resentment.

You have your orders Eagle <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, get to thinking and planning.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I am inclined to end this with a quote from Pogo.

"We have met the enemy and they are us."

You bet "they are US (ME)!" I am going for the me needing ENs met or else option! Nuke em till they glow and make it a "GLASS PARKING LOT!" option.

Well Eagle,

Let me tell you as an expert on Nuc's, that policy often leads to alot of collateral damage and often just does not lead to a positive outcome even for the Nuker not just the Nukee.

Time to use your airpower in a more postive and effective fashion.

God Bless,

JL

Well I work underground and my mission is to disarm the WS....trippin' em up in their own babble is a tactic we use here in the MB defense unit. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Nuking seems so final. You need t/b selective on how you destroy the WS. You want to leave your spouse in tact and the may try to kidnap your spouse again so it is wise as JL said to get a plan.

Can you work with Jennifer on a plan? Remember LBing doesn't happen in plan B. In most cases, then WS have a moving desire to know where the BS is at all times. Use that as a tool and disarm the WS by making her wonder what u r up to. There is no RH policy or POJA with a WS. Just your spouse.

Learn the difference and implement. Let her see that you are willing to share your life with your W but NOT the WS.

My motto: Plan A your spouse but plan B the WS.

L.

Wake up! Clear the <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />FOG get off you A** and "JUST DO IT" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Um.... you need to calm down. Stop drinking soo much caffeine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

How would you like someone yelling at you? Now respond as best you can and walk away. You've got to give her time to digest your requests.

Her mind and heart are not in sync yet and your demands are growing.

Go read my 5 stages of grieving and learn HOW to control your temper so your good intentions get the best chance of making it through the fog.

Expect her to NOT like you. At least NOT right away.

You must pray for that clear mind, calm heart and LOTS of patience.

Got it?

L.

Why won't she tell me what I'm doing wrong?
Why won't she ell me what I'm doing right?
Why won't she tell me anyhting?

Eagle-

So, what's the status on the two of you getting into MC? I can't stress how critical this is for the two of you at this point...you NEED an environment to discuss this where you've got someone who can referree for the two of you.

Again, I don't see EITHER of you moving towards actually fixing things. Quit getting angry, and starting fixing your side of the equation.

Honestly, if you keep looking for the nuclear option, then you're doomed to never be happy with your recovery. It just does NOT work that way.

I am in IC, W is looking into IC and then MC. We are going to talk about an appt with Jennifer this evening. I emailed to find an appt earliest is next Tuesday, 7PM.

I have offered olive branches all week. Tried to engage in convo, got neg attitude, something simple like " I would like to take all of us to Pizza for lunch.....They have a good salad bar, about same as fast food."...got cut off here with "whatever" I said please let me talk I am just trying to make some pleasant convo and figure out what to do about lunch. Then got the "I didn't ahve an att" on and on.

I really am trying, I asked for some feedback last night and all H ensued, most by me, I just need to know which direction to march in as opposed to having 1 foot nailed to the floor.

Eagle, a good start would be for you to top posting on your W's thread. Huge LB up there, sir.

I suspect the reason she said "whatever" stems back to your prior list of demands about how she should think, act, and feel. You were treating her like one of your airmen and her response was to try to do what she's told. Please consider the possibility she's basically going out of her way to not disobey any of your orders.

You asked:

It's a real possibility she does not know the answers to those questions. When I was at that stage, I honestly did not know how I felt about anything. I was truly lost in many, many ways.

It takes time, Eagle. It took years for you M to get to this state; it is not going to be fixed overnight, and I know I'm not the only one who has posted that.

All I can say is maybe try to treat her in a way that you would like to be treated. I can't imagine that barking orders and being the thought and feelings police work very well for any one.

Eagle-

What have I suggested?

Stop asking. Stop working on the R all the time. Right now, work on YOURSELF, and work on your FRIENDSHIP with your wife more than anything else.

Don't wait on your W to setup the MC...work together with her to do so. Get one that you BOTH can agree to. And get it done NOW. If you're in a hurry, then rush THIS PART at least!

Set limits on when/how you two talk about the R/A/etc... Schedule a set time and duration...keep a notebook of what's discussed so that you can resume where you left off. AND STICK TO IT.

AND...do not discuss any of that outside of MC or your scheduled times!!!! Keep that up until the two of you reach a point where you CAN discuss things without it being a constant battle.

You've heard me say this same stuff over and over. You've said that you were going to follow my advice...so when are you going to start DOING IT???

As soon as we both get home from work. We had MC she doesn't like him. She got a new list from tri-care approved MC/IC. She hasn't contacted any of them as of yet, I am afraid to contact any of them as she will see that as controlling and not want to go. So I continue to go to my IC, I contacted Laurie at MB, Jennifer doesn't have anyhting open until Tues next week. I can't schedule that until I can talk with W.

OWL & GBH Thanks for keeping me straight.

GBH,

Just a question to understand no offense intended, so please take none.

Why do I get blasted for posting on her thread, but she gets a free ride posting on mine?

Again just asking, no offense is intended.

Perhaps it's because she hasn't posted on one of your threads since Feb 21 and you show up on hers quite frequently.

I know you're angry because of what happend, so are many of us. I'm not sure how I would have reacted if my FWW had not stepped up and tried a little bit shortly after D-day, but it's clear to me that you MUST step back and quit expecting your W to respond the way you want her to.

As has been said by others, work on yourself and don't expect much in return early in the process. This is going to take weeks, if not months, without your confrontational pattern. The confrontations just set you back.

Just remembber, it's going to take time. Be cool!

xring

Because I don't seem to remember seeing her post on your thread, at least not recently. The threads kind of long, so I might have missed something, but as x-ring said, she hasn't posted on your thread since Feb. 21. The tone of your post wasn't exactly civil, either.

Reading/posting on one another's threads can sometimes do more harm and good. If you don't believe me, go to the EN board and look up posts by slimjim and LookingUp11. Sitch is not identical to yours as there was no infidelity, and they seemed to have called a bit of a truce more recently. But early in their participation there was lots of cross-reading and cross-posting and it was totally counter-productive.

No offense taken, BTW... I honestly don't always have time to go through everything here and might have missed something. I just go by what my aging short-term memory provides me!

Xring,

Check her thread again, I don't post regularly there, but I did bump per a few requests. I was just curious though.

Thanks

Eagle,

I don't want to get in a contest with you, but you posted twice this morning. Both posts were pretty much "in your face" type of messages. These are not productive. That was my point.

xring

Gotcha, Thanks

Eagle,

Remember when I asked for people's opinions on whether my W should post here? The only common answer that I got was that it is not a good idea to read each others posts.

Now, I do not normally just take advice without understanding and agreeing with it based on my experience. I have read both E2's thread and yours in full. I can see the animosity, the anger and the resentment that this caused. HINT: Block you wife's posts. Stay off of it...don't read it...don't post to it. Cool? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Once your marriage is recovered and much stronger, then you can POJA on whether to read each other's posts. But this would take a lot of strength. How much of what you have posted is just venting? Venting is not logical... Venting is not kind...Venting is quite explosive...Venting can bring out the worst in people...but...Venting is healthy provided it is ISOLATED from your W. This is why we vent, to purge from our souls all the bad crap that our M cannot handle right now. How strong would a marriage need to be to handle all of this emotion when some of it may not even be true!

Just something to think on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

C-

G2KT,

Thanks I needed to hear that.

How are ya today??

If I make it through tonight, we will have had two good days in a row. That will be a record since the $hit hit the fan on Feb 5. I have actually accomplished something at work today...also a first for the last few weeks.

Keep the faith. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

C-

You too! Good Luck and Take Care!

R u still wondering about these questions?

IMHO, the reason is because she is still a WS.

WS' don't want to help the BS by telling them anything helpful. Instead the WS enjoy seeing the BS in pain. Don't give her that satisfaction. Your W doesn't like to see you in pain so when she babbles pain and suffering your way....you know u r dealing with a WS, so move th other way.

L.

Hi Orchid,

Yes

You are probably right, Still in WS mode and FOG, NC still good as far as I know.

Yup you are right. Thank you and I will continue.

I really appreciate you help Orchid, you have great insight are very helpful to us and I hope you continue to post to me and to my W on her thread.

Thank you

Eagle-

So has your wife quit posting here?

I can't say that I would be surprised...you've done a masterful job of discouraging her from doing so. I was hoping that she'd continue to consider the advice I'd been giving the two of you.

If she does return, please consider blocking each other's threads as a poster suggested in her thread. If you continue in attacking her here, there is no way she'll ever come back for advice.

She hasn't read or posted for a couple of days. She is working days and spends evenings with DD & DS. As far as I know she will continue to post as she can.

Not a problem, I will take advise and apply as best I can. I would appreciate it if both sides were viewed before judgement was passed.

Tell me what I've not viewed. I've seen her posts on your threads, and yours on hers. I've actively discouraged both of you from attacking each other repeatedly.

I'm telling you what I know as a BS. That by taking every single thing that is said and done as an attack on you and responding in kind will do NOTHING to heal your marriage. It will only continue to maintain a wedge between the two of you.

Look...I'm an "attack the problem, not the person" kinda guy. My wife is the exact opposite. When angry/hurt, she goes for blood. Often my INITIAL response is something similar...but I almost never give in to it...instead I work on fixing the PROBLEM...not trying to hurt her if we're fighting. Even when she is at her worst, I'm working to solve the issue. Because ONE of us has to be that way, or we just can't get through the problems.

Many of your comments are spiteful, angry, vengeful...aimed at doing NOTHING positive. And even the ones that you may intend as being positive come across differently due to the way that you phrase or the method you use to communicate them. This is one of the KEY areas that the two of you need to work on via an MC.

I really do mean this...if you both continue to act as you are, without either of you actually trying to break this cycle, I don't give you high odds of reconciling.

And I do see a very similar tendency in your wife...and bluntly, have called her on it when I've seen it happen as well.

Last thing...you have GOT to reconcile YOURSELF with the fact that things are NOT going to get better overnight in your marriage. Not even this week. Or next week. But, it CAN happen OVER A PERIOD OF TIME...if you WORK for it. No 'nuclear fixes'...if you can't get past that, you're just setting your marriage up for failure.

So...on those 'baby steps' I keep going on about...status on getting a new MC? Have you and the wife done anything fun...just the two of you...in the last week? Not even something romantic...just fun. Think of it as dating when you were a teen again. Just go to a funny movie...go shopping...go to one of those ceramic cafe thingies...go do something where you can laugh and joke with each other without once talking/bringing up anything to do with the R/M/A. Rebuild the fun friendship between you first. Starting NOW!

Owl,

Sat night went to drag races, both of us had a great time, She said she had fun and enjoyed it, it was her idea, she passed up on steak and lobster for chili chees fries and bottled water. Not a judgement just what came about, we had steak and lobster Sun night w kids, it was good as well, had a good time.

Nothing romantic in months, not a problem anymore. I really don't think she is where we can joke about anything yet, I've tried and been shot down. Believe me jokes were not related to R, M, or A, just generic stuff, so I'll have to wait. I am trying and being as neutral as I can right now until she says or shows she is ready to talk, laugh, and joke. We went shopping, spent over 2K Sat. It was OK, got stuff we needed and kids wanted, had a pretty good time. I just don't understand why if comm is her #1 EN, why she won't comm. So I'm throttling back and waiting and watching. Obviously nothing else works, duh, I think finally got it.

I have an appt w Jennifer thurs 8PM, to my knowledge she hasn't contacted an IC or MC. She says she doesn't have the time at work and they are all closed after she gets home. I asked if she would like to talk to Jennifer, she said we'll see.

I mentioned her responses to my attempts at comm Sat on the way to lunch. I was trying to engage her about some brochures she had. Got my head bitten off and handed to me, I said wow, I was just trying to start a small conversation, she turned away so it ended. It goes like this all the time.

I am now on her timeline, calm, and trying to control myself. I find that if my GASF is low I'm a lot calmer so I'm trying to keep it low.

Actually, this sounds right on track. Now just give that some time to sink in. As long as NC is in place, and you're both actually working to spend this time together and keep it light, I really do feel this is your best bet to move forward at this point.

Remember what I said about scheduling that time to talk about R/A/M. At the same time, set some rules and format for that discussion as well. Simple courtesy things...and ensure that BOTH of you AGREE to them.

1. No yelling.
2. No interrupting...no matter how much you might disagree with what's being said, let that person finish talking BEFORE you voice an opinion.
3. No personal attacks. Saying how an ACTION makes you feel is one thing...saying how the other person makes you feel is ANOTHER. Get the picture?
4. Discussion starts at xx time, and ends at yy time. A journal will be kept to show what was discussed last. If a subject is not finished at the end of the last session, write it down and start with that at the next session.

I really think that this is something that would improve your communication around the ISSUES. And it allows you to leave the REST of your time open to just being a family/married couple again.

Hope this helps. It sounds to me like you spent this last weekend doing the right kind of things.

2. No interrupting...no matter how much you might disagree with what's being said, let that person finish talking BEFORE you voice an opinion.

This one will be hardest for both, but I'm trying hard and getting a little better.

Good Job Owl!!!

Eagle, this makes a heck of a lot of sense to me.

C-

LOL...you guys have no idea how scarey it is that anything I'M suggesting makes sense!!!

Heck...you'd figure that with all of this 'advice' I give, I would never have ended up on this forum in the first place, huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Glad you're here though!

Had a good appt w/Jennifer. Worked ouut a good plan. Covered a lot of info. provided good ideas, just have to implement. Away we go.

Keep trying, man. This crap is tough. Let us know how it works out.

C-

Glad to hear that, Eagle!

It's not easy, but it DOES get better. Following a plan is the best medicine for this that I can think of...flailing around like a man in quicksand is the worst possible action.

Take it slow, and stick to your plan. I'm curious how her plan matched up with any of my advice?

Pretty doggone close Owl. Different way of saying it but pretty doggone close.

W asked me this morning if Jennifer wanted to talk to her last night I said yes, but you had left. She had said when she left come get her if Jennifer wanted to talk to her, I didn't hear that as Jennifer was talking so I missed an opportunity.

She did ask if I was going to call again yes next Wed @ 8PM would she like to talk, not sure what she thought but she was asking about cost, I said $XXX.XX per hour whether you talk I talk or both talk. Jennifer did want to talk to you to get ideas to help me get straight. She said Oh, we'll see.

IC went well last night, recommended taking a break, do not argue, excuse myself and walk away. This will be very hard for me to do as I have never walked away from confrontation or challenge, but I will do it. It is the only way. Roll with the punches and let everything roll off like water on a ducks back.

Eagle-

Walking away ISN'T a natural response to a fight for most of us. But it IS VERY effective in dealing with a situation where one or more of the participants are unable to control their temper.

I use this tactic as well...and it does NOT hurt to admit to your spouse that the reason you're walking away is so that YOU can calm down and talk about this reasonably once you're able to do so.

Sounds like great advice to me!

Thank you for the confirmation, this is definitely against my instincts (notice I didn't say netter instincts). It has to be done if I'm ever to see progress.

Please stay with me, I really do appreciate your support, advice and help.

Thank you again

Appt with Jennifer next Wed 8PM, W says she would like to participate. I think weekend went well, just confusing. Bought some books, bubblegum for the brain. Went our to early dinner last night went well. Went shopping w W and kids went well. No hassles except MIL called, big hassle. We'll see how rest of week goes and appt.

Appt went well W talked to Jennifer for almost an hour. We got homework and will try to get it done soon. DD & DS are scheduled for IC/FC at end of month, earliest I could get them in. W was supposed to get them an appt and didn't. W has yet to find a local IC. Rest of week gone OK, we'll see how weekend goes, drag races Sat night.

DS is having issues, talked with W this morning, he said some things that sent red flag up to her. I talked to him and he is stressed about sitch at home, not knowing if W is staying or leaving, and issues at school, tons of homework, etc... He needs stability, and reassurance, I reassured him I am always and will always be here for him, restated the W is trying, but I have no control over her actions. IC & FC for kids can't come soon enough. I'm very worried about DS and will try for an appt for him asap.

You know Eagle, your tone has changed lately. Sounds like things are getting solved and moving slowly forward. Good for you and your M!

Just a bit of encouragement....

C-

Nothing is getting solved, nothing has changed, I'm just being still. Laid back watching and waiting. Working with Jennifer, reaccomplished EN questionaire, went over it with W, some improvement seen I guess. Completed my LB questionaire, don't know about W, but that was one of our assignments from Jennifer. Still don't feel safe or comfortable, just dealing with it. Have an IC at 6 and MC with Jennifer at 8 this evening.

Can you speak to Jennifer about the grocery money?

Money is not an issue for me, we have sold house in OKC, all of it is in joint checking, she has check book and ATM card. Money probs were when she retired, no money coming in on her side and I had to do some belt tightening. In addition to that she had withdrawn 750.00 and opened a bank account in OKC, never said a word and I didn't know until the mortgage came due. We usually grocery shop together with the kids at Sams and WalMart. What are you talking about???

Well apparently it is time to cave in to WWs demands. Monday I am going to my lawyer and filing for the big D. Nothing is working, she hasn't changed her outlook on anything, if anything it has only gotten worse!

And by the way this is not an April fools joke!

Eagle,


I am sorry to read this message. I hope all goes well with you and your children. If it is truely what she wants, then there is no denying her. You have done an admirable job in trying to save your marriage, and I am sure your children appreciate the efforts you have made and how you have taken care of them.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

What would you do in this situation? I really need you advice here.

D-Day was 14 Oct 05, W was living in OKC ADAF, retired 1 Feb 06, came home to family 27 Jan 06.

Just started talking to Jennifer 3 weeks ago, keeps house clean, holds hands occaisionally, kisses (pecks on lips or cheek) occaisionally, SF once a month (maybe depends on her feelings), and we do sleep in the same bed, must maintain our sides though cuddling and snuggling happens occaisionally.

Over 2 mos, and this is as good as it gets, NC in place since 14 Oct 05. Has no desire for SF, says I'm here trying, won't do anything to ease my fears, pain, etc...There is no vocal affirmation on making M work, "Just watch my actions." Conversation is her #1 EN, but she won't discuss anything with me, whenever I talk to her she says I'm all attitude, others around us hear this and question her motives, they don't hear or see an attitude. Says she is here and this constitutes working on M, does not meet any of my emotional needs, she is here for the kids, stopped reading MB material, gets upset whenever R or M discussions occur. Apparently playing waiting game to see who has the most patience and if she can force me to file for D. Told me that her paycheck would go into joint account, went behind my back and opened new account has paycheck direct deposited there, this has been in place for over 2 weeks, just found out Saturday, can't be an LB for me, I can't ever get upset about anything, I'm supposed to suck it up and be concerned about her feelings, my questioning this premeditated action by her is a BIG LB for her. Supposedly she is informing me of her whereabouts this is not working, if it was I would have known about the visit to the bank, she is intercepting the mail and hiding her actions if anything should show up (like new bank account stuff, who knows what else she is hidding, a real trust builder here), lying about financial aspects that will cause bills to go unpaid.

If she would work on M, open her eyes and try to be a little more positive about us, she would see I am still in love with her, although falling out of love very quickly, willing to listen, try to understand her POV, and talk to her, be affectionate any time, any place, would give her the world, but she refuses, sooo. What can I do??? I ahve run out of patience.

First Eagle,

Read this story by SKM SKM's Chronicles

Next I would suggest that you back off and have patience. Talk with your children about their feelings and what they see. Don't pump them for information ask them what they see and feel.

You might be surprised at their insights. Don't validate or invalidate their feelings or insights, but think about the data you have received. Frankly, your W has a lot of resentment, rightly or wrongly, and she needs to deal with it.

Further, since you have lived alone for 4 years and are used to running everything yourself, sharing the family and home are very difficult transistions. Further, she is used to being alone and not having to account for her time, her thoughts, her efforts to anyone not you, not the kids, NO ONE.

I am thinking part of this is this transistion from you two leading entirely different lives for the last four years. Next, she is now retired and THAT takes some getting used to. I believe you have also retired as well. One tends to define onesself via their jobs and when one retires some identity is lost. Oh! and finally there is that "little" detail of her affair. That is why I posted SKM's chronicles for you. Do you see the challenges?

I would strongly urge you to address the issues you both feel about living apart for so long and then being together again first. Then talk about the issues of her having to be responsible for and TO the kids. Talk about strategies that will help ease this transition for the both of you and then do them. Take your time. You are in no hurry are you. She can file if she likes, and you can file if you like, but neither of you gain much either way.

I believe if you start to see things from her side, and can talk about them and decide together how to treat them, she may well come around and start to do the same for you.

This is a very complicated situation, and the A just adds even more complication.

Must go, but think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Post deleted by Eagle15

And now you know why nothing has worked. However, my advice still stands IF she will end the A. Until she does, there is no need to expect much of anything from her, so don't waist the energy it takes to be mad.

I am sorry to hear about this, but perhaps now things will become more open.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you JL

Eagle...

You aren't safe to talk to. Neither is she.

Make yourself safe. Make yourself safe for everyone...reward yourself.

LA

LA,

I'm working on making myself safe. I did not blow up, We did talk. I am trying to be as safe for her as I can, but the deceit and lying has to stop sometime right? I guess I just don't get it.

Eagle,

Making your conversation safe for one time only begins the change. Over and over again is when you become safe.

You are not safe from yourself, either, Eagle. Please know that. You judge yourself, measure, estimate and value yourself within strict guidelines. I see your marriage as craving acceptance and ownership like rain in the desert. Be open to it.

Not blowing up is a good start...not DJing, which is what I see as the most harmful to you and to her, would be worth focusing on. This isn't as easy as seeing it in front of you...like raising your voice or calling names. It is a perspective of allowance, a deep belief of permission, rightness, that is life long and can be difficult to detect.

You're not alone.

Would you care to explore DJs more? I know my posts are long and you may not choose to...but if you will read McCrackens' thread "Fog Talk or Truth" it might give you an insight into making yourself safe for you and for her.

LA

Well I now have the cell in my possession, she is very mad about it and wants to POJA about it. What now?

I'm curious, Eagle, why do you feel your W is not entitled to keep her own bank account? She is earning money, why shouldn't she be able to hold her own account?

If you looked at the thread ML started yesterday about finances, you would find it is not at all unusual for Hs and Ws to hold their own bank accounts.

EagleTooo had actually started a thread about this a few weeks ago, about the time she started the job. It gave me the impression that she was not allowed to make any sort of purchase without clearing it with you first. Sounded a bit unreasonable to me that she had to seek your permission to make small purchases like a cup of coffee or a tube of toothpaste.

Your wish for total control of her and her wish for a little independence and breathing room seem to be feeding a viscious cycle. Whoever it was that pointed out that you two needing to adjust to being together after living separately for a long time has a good point.

And JL (I think): EagleTooo's A has been over for months. She is no longer in that A - NC since last fall.

She wants to POJA her secret cell phone??

Tell her you are definitely NOT enthusiastic about her having a secret cell phone. That should be the end of that. As Dr. Harley says, in POJA, you NEVER do something the other is not enthusiastic about. END OF STORY.

Thanks Mel,

GBH,

Look a little further up in this thread, She has and has always had total access to everything financial, ****** she used to do all the bills and tell me how much I could get at the ATM, 40.00 a week. this went on from marriage until she went to Japan, 13 years. We have always had joint account, no seperate accounts, her wish, sounded good to me, I never questioned it.

There is a big difference between POJAing an account and doing it, hidding the paperwork and mail that comes in about it, and then lying about it when asked. Why would she need over a 1000.00 per month???

I do not "dole out an allowance" to her. She is a big girl knows how to use ATMs and the check book. She is trying to be a victim and you are aiding and abbetting. Thanks GBH for your objectivity!

Now what do you have to say about her cell phone from OKC??? Hidden, lied about it, lied again about where it was, arguing about keeping it, no reason for it unless she is lying about her intentions. Lying is #1 on my LB list VERY BIG LB!!! Very Close to a deal breaker!
What do I do now??? Hold her hand, sing Kumbaya, and become a doormat??? Please GBH tell me what I should do!

Sorry, Eagle, I'm not up to speed on this whole thread. Have been in and out since its inception and having a full time job, going to school, and being invovled in a volunteer organization, I don't have time to review the whole thing.

Secret cell phone is definitely a deal breaker. I either missed that part of the thread or my aging brain forgot about it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Neither cell phones nor bank accounts nor credit cards should be secret. I can understand your anger and you are perfectly justified to call her on that.

Another question (sorry): If you do file for D, will you go through with your threats to cut her and her parents off from the kids?

Just trying to point out that neither of you is acting like a saint in this sitch. She's fighting for independence; you are fighting for radical honesty. Looks like you both know how to push each other's buttons, no question.

That's OK.

Yes I will. I will not allow her to continue to hurt and abuse our children.

You are right. I asked her if we could lay down our weapons and start over, she said OK whatever. Sooooo what now?

Perhaps stopping the threats to cut her off from the kids might be a start. Do you really think you have the legal right to cut her off from the kids? What does your lawyer say (I can only assume you have consulted one what with this serious charge you are making).

How was she ABUSING the children? That's a pretty serious charge, Eagle. And don't try to pass off her getting cross with one of them as abuse. So has she been physically beating them? Constant verbal abuse? Neglecting them? Denying them food, shelter, and other essentials? Most of all, do the kids feel abused?

I would think that if she is truly abusing the children, you would have removed them from the abusive situation by now. To do anything less would peg you as an abusive father for letting it happen. So perhaps it's time to get real, stop the drama, and try something productive.

My suggestion is that you find yourselves a good MC and commit to at least trying.

"Yes I will. I will not allow her to continue to hurt and abuse our children."

Eagle? You both are hurting and abusing each other and the children. You can't enforce a boundary on something you're doing yourself. That would be like saying you can have an A and she can't.

Agreeing to lay down your weapons is the best start. Giving each other a clean slate, being new, seeing each other for who you are and not having it corroded with all the resentments you both have made in yourselves is where my H and me started recovery.

Be safe. Choose your actions on your code, not on her response. She can do the same. The effect are immediate relief. That relief will evaporate the moment you judge, and all the clean slate commitment will dissolve when you DJ. You have to recommit all over again. You will remember the relief.

Your weapons to be laid down...

Judgment - which includes Blame, Resentment, Measuring sticks, pointing fingers, facts (instead of the opinions, feelings and beliefs they are).
DJs, AOs, SDs
Believing there is the truth, not your truth and her truth.
Believing you are responsible for her thoughts, feelings and beliefs.
Her believing you are responsible for her thoughts, feelings and belief.
Comparison, part of judgment...holding her to your standards and you to hers.
Believing you can control her, make her, cure her.
Her believing she can do the same to you.

You pick up your tools:

Ownership
Choice
Listen & Repeat
"I feel" and "I believe" statements
Acknowledgement
Stating your intent "To inform. To support. To heal. To harm" State it, own it.
Respect (you are separate and equal to everyone...actions don't change that; attitude doesn't change that)

You lay down the weapons and you do not allow yourself to pick them up to use on yourself, either.

You hold the tools and use them on yourself as well as others.

I believe she is not fighting to be independent of you, but to be respected as separate and equal to you.

LA

GBH,

Alabama is not a 50-50 state, they have specific laws concerning adultery adn abandonment. They allow for a very short period when the divorce is concerning adultery.

Abuse to me is keeping the kids in the dark, them not knowing whether or not she will jump ship from day to day, etc... She refuses to give them a safe feeling, keeps them in limbo.

The kids do not see the interactions between WW and I, they do see and feel the tension in the house. When secret cell phones are found and it is being discussed they do hear about it, they are not deaf, I'm the one with hearing aids.

I am in IC, we do MC with Jennifer Harley Chalmers every Wednesday evening. She has not found an IC yet.

LA thank you, I tried to discuss you post with WW. I hope she will read it and think about it. I would love to work on this with her as a team. I really do want to put my weapons down, Jennifer told me the same last night.

Quote:
[color:"blue"]Eagle? You both are hurting and abusing each other and the children. You can't enforce a boundary on something you're doing yourself. That would be like saying you can have an A and she can't.

Agreeing to lay down your weapons is the best start. Giving each other a clean slate, being new, seeing each other for who you are and not having it corroded with all the resentments you both have made in yourselves is where my H and me started recovery.

Be safe. Choose your actions on your code, not on her response. She can do the same. The effect are immediate relief. That relief will evaporate the moment you judge, and all the clean slate commitment will dissolve when you DJ. You have to recommit all over again. You will remember the relief.

Your weapons to be laid down...

Judgment - which includes Blame, Resentment, Measuring sticks, pointing fingers, facts (instead of the opinions, feelings and beliefs they are).
DJs, AOs, SDs
Believing there is the truth, not your truth and her truth.
Believing you are responsible for her thoughts, feelings and beliefs.
Her believing you are responsible for her thoughts, feelings and belief.
Comparison, part of judgment...holding her to your standards and you to hers.
Believing you can control her, make her, cure her.
Her believing she can do the same to you.

You pick up your tools:

Ownership
Choice
Listen & Repeat
"I feel" and "I believe" statements
Acknowledgement
Stating your intent "To inform. To support. To heal. To harm" State it, own it.
Respect (you are separate and equal to everyone...actions don't change that; attitude doesn't change that)

You lay down the weapons and you do not allow yourself to pick them up to use on yourself, either.

You hold the tools and use them on yourself as well as others.

I believe she is not fighting to be independent of you, but to be respected as separate and equal to you.

LA
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The above quote really got my attention, not sure why, but it did, Thank You.

Can you explain code to me??? I'm not sure what it means, also can you provide examples??? I would appreciate it.

You choose your own code to live by...

You make a list of standards...what you do not allow yourself to do to others or to yourself...

You make a list of boundaries...what you do not allow others to do to you...

They will match.

As a test, take your list of standards...the allow nots...and flip them around as "must do's"...remember, whatever there are for others, they must also be what you do for you...

For instance...I looked at what I was wailing about inside myself when my DH was WH...

I wanted...

Honesty
Consideration
Appreciation
Attention
Effort
Acceptance

I didn't want

Dishonesty
Rejection
Being used
Ignored
Judged

I played with these, mulling and tasting them...figured out...

Honesty...I wanted to be honest with myself and others, and when lied to, that would cross my boundary...however...I could not make WH be honest with himself...see how that couldn't be my boundary?

Consideration...well, if I thought about it, consideration meant that I wasn't last place, to WH or myself...I only had control over one of those...so I chose to put consideration into my code...I would consider what my WH said, listen and repeat, no judgment...repeating to myself that this was his stuff, not mine...which got me to respect...which I added to my code...and part of consideration is appreciation, which is also part of honesty, stating what I appreciate...geesh, and all that takes attention, which is awareness...and boy, that's a lot of effort...

See where one thing you're thinking of will lead you to another?

Then I boiled it all down to one...Acceptance. Accepting that we are all separate and equal, by God's design...all capable (so fixing/pleasing is out of the question); to live respectfully, I would keep my own stuff my own...ownership...which eliminates the need for blame...oh, that is a boundary!

A rather metaphoric process.

Result (chill when served):

Accept; accept humans as they are

Respect; every one is separate and equal, with their own thoughts, feelings and beliefs; to react is disrespectful to myself and others

Be Honest; express appreciation, admiration, thoughts, feelings and beliefs


What I didn't add to each of those was: know their actions about them, not me. This was the crucial part because each one of those depend on that.

I am human and the world revolves around me. I'm the axis, and yes, a little off kilter. My human condition, made by God with only these eyes to see out of--to know this is to know my limits.

I have the pull to walk into every human I meet, so I can live other lives. I violate my code (acceptance for self, respect for others and honesty for self) when I do this. I do not allow myself to do this.

In the same vein, what others do, they choose, because I know I choose. I cannot make them, manipulate or force them. They choose.

Unless I maintain my standards, I cannot enforce my boundaries. There is internal conflict when I attempt it...I get mixed emotions (information) coming from beliefs I am putting in opposition.

I changed my beliefs to align with my standards and boundaries. I stay aware, in the present, and do my best.

I am not allowed to judge others or myself. I check myself and say, "Better?" "Worse?" And adjust as necessary.

I am not creating another me...by recreating my image of me...I have to be honestly me, and that has made the difference.

You can do this.

Tell me why you shared with MrsEagle, instead of keeping this all to yourself?

LA

I would like for us to work together on this, she thought laying down our weapons might work, this looked like a great way to get started. It appeared to be something to be shared, not kept secret, I don't do secrets well. I provided a printed copy to her asked if she would read and we could discuss, that's as far as it went. She agreed to read and discuss, we have not gone farther yet. She also read it on this thread. I felt that doing something together with a common goal might be a good thing. If she wanted to work on it we would if not I would.

Eagle,

I know you want for you both to work together on this. I get that. I've gotten it throughout your thread. My message, the one God is driving towards you, is that you only control you. You have your thoughts, feelings and beliefs and they are yours. You are addicted to your wife, emmeshed, and it feeds your fury, creates your resentments and gives you permission to focus on anyone else but yourself.

Your time has come. Just yours. This isn't about secrets, it is about you stop disrespecting your wife by educating her. You share what you learn, for you, not her. You share your thoughts, feelings and beliefs with "I" statements to demonstrate to you and her, you know they are your truth.

See the bind? If she isn't discussing it with you, what are you doing? Are you looking at it, probing inside yourself, wondering what judgment gives you in the form of a payoff? Discovering how you operate and why?

Let's work on it...what thoughts did you have? What beliefs do you have in relation to acting from a code and not reacting to others?

You matter. You count. Just you. You are separate and equal to everyone on the planet, but Eagle, you keep secrets...you keep them from yourself. You're human. It happens. I am reaching out to you with nonjudgment. I know you feel pain, frustration, anger and resentment daily. All of those, you are giving yourself half of them. It is your half that you control. I want you to stop. I believe you really want to stop.

LA

Well,

Just found that NC has been broken with original OM!

What now???

Boundaries Eagle. I told you this.

Your W will not withdraw and be able to focus on your M while she is in contact with OM. And its is enormously disrespectful to you to maintain contact also.

You need to show her that you want to work on a restored marriage with her, but do not NEED to do this, and so will not tolerate such flagrant disrespect and dishonesty.

Boundaries.

If your W chooses to leave then, so be it. If keeping her home comes at a price of no recovery progress, disrespect and persistent contact, do you want that ?

Its your call Eagle. What will you tolerate
?

Happy Easter to all MBers.

I'm back from vacation and wondering about your response to my last post to you. I see where you said there was contact--did MrsE tell you or did you find out in another way?

LA

I found out about it by checking cell bill for her secret cell, also multiple contacts in Jan, she says attempts, who knows.

Hope your vacation went well.