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I didn't call it POJA she did. She wanted to POJA it, I did not. I called it a boundary, labeled it as unacceptable to me. Sorry if I did not convey that clearly. I was Honest with her. Oh good. In general, it's ridiculous to try to POJA anything regarding an affair with a WS. That's boundary time. POJA is for when your relationship is on firmer footing and when you're actually willing to negotiate. Of course you keeping the phone isn't really a guarantee that she won't contact the OM. If she decides that's what she wants to do, she'll find a way. You simply can't make it hard enough to keep her from contacting him if she decides to - I hope you're prepared for that. Mys
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myshae, then we are even, because I cringed when I read your post berating him for no reason. First off, it was HIS WW who proposed POJA to "negotiate" keeping her secret cell phone. It was her attempt to use MB principles against her H to facilitate her affair. It was not a sincere offer proposed in a recovery atmosphere, but a tactic to continue her affair.
She wants to POJA a secret cell phone to contact her lover, for crying out loud. There is nothing wrong with him responding that POJA requires ENTHUSIASTIC AGREEMENT on both parts. And guess what?? He is NOT ENTHUSIASTIC about his W having a secret cell phone to call her lover!
He knows that this is not a POJA matter, but a personal boundary issue, and OF COURSE he doesn't expect her to be ENTHUSIASTIC about getting busted and having to turn over her secret affair phone. There is nothing wrong with him pointing that out.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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[
Of course you keeping the phone isn't really a guarantee that she won't contact the OM. If she decides that's what she wants to do, she'll find a way. You simply can't make it hard enough to keep her from contacting him if she decides to - I hope you're prepared for that.
Mys So what are you suggesting? That he not TRY? I don't get your point.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Melody,I really don't want to start another holy war regarding MB principles on this board. POJA states: Never do anything without the enthusiastic support of BOTH spouses.She's one of the spouses. According to POJA, then any agreement made using POJA would include her enthusiasm. If he's not interested in whether or not she's enthusiastic then he's not following POJA. Which is fine in this case but it's important that she understand that's NOT how POJA works because someday, hopefully, they'll get to a point where they get to actually use POJA as it's intended and, at that point, it's NOT OK for him to just railroad right over her enthusaism. Also, she shouldn't be afraid of POJA because she remembers it being used as a cudgel. myshae, then we are even, because I cringed when I read your post berating him for no reason. First off, it was HIS WW who proposed POJA to "negotiate" keeping her secret cell phone. It was her attempt to use MB principles against her H to facilitate her affair. It was not a sincere offer proposed in a recovery atmosphere, but a tactic to continue her affair. Sure. She wants to POJA a secret cell phone to contact her lover, for crying out loud. There is nothing wrong with him responding that POJA requires ENTHUSIASTIC AGREEMENT on both parts. And guess what?? He is NOT ENTHUSIASTIC about his W having a secret cell phone to call her lover! Yep. But he's also not willing to negotiate which means he's not willing to POJA. He knows that this is not a POJA matter, but a personal boundary issue, and OF COURSE he doesn't expect her to be ENTHUSIASTIC about getting busted and having to turn over her secret affair phone. There is nothing wrong with him pointing that out. Yes, that's clear now. It wasn't clear before. He didn't call it POJA. He called it what it was - a boundary. That's a good thing. I was just very concerned that he might be creating damaging impressions on down the road. *shrugs* Best to clear that sort of thing up, don't you think? Mys
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So what are you suggesting? That he not TRY? I don't get your point. Nope. I'm just suggesting that he manage his expectations and realize his wife might not be as far along as he'd hoped - and prepare himself emotionally to discover more bad news. I'm worried about his emotional state and his difficulty managing his anger. He does tend to lash out (sorry to refer to you in the third person, Eagle, the grammar gets difficult otherwise). In other words - build in some fault tolerance. My point, Melody, is really quite simple. It's easy for his wife to contact the OM if she really wants to with or without that cell phone. She can use a pay phone. She can go over to a 'friend's house. She can buy one of those calling cards for 20 bucks. He shouldn't feel 'safe' just because he has that cell phone. Ya know? Mys
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myshae, I fully understand what POJA means. AND SO DOES HE. It does not include things that are damaging to the marriage when one is NOT in a BUYERS MARRIAGE. It is not intended to be used to HARM the marriage by negotiating the continuation of an affair. This was never about POJA, but about trampling on boundaries, using MB principles in a warped twist, to get her way. His w is no more interested in POJA than in the man in the moon. She is only interested in faciliatating her affair. Yep. But he's also not willing to negotiate which means he's not willing to POJA. He was not willing to "negotiatate" a secret cell phone. That doesn't mean he isn't willing to use POJA when appropriate.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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myshae, I fully understand what POJA means. AND SO DOES HE. Oh good. Then there's no real need to argue, is there? He was not willing to "negotiatate" a secret cell phone. That doesn't mean he isn't willing to use POJA when appropriate. Right. And, as I said earlier, it's somewhat ridiculous to try to negotiate anything regarding an affair with a WS. I think we're agreeing. It seems as though I'm saying the same thing you're saying and you're saying the same thing I'm saying. So why are we saying it? Mys
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Agree. And I hope that we also agree that there is no need to bust his balls over something he did right, is there?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Agree. And I hope that we also agree that there is no need to bust his balls over something he did right, is there? Sure. No one was busting his balls as you put it BUT.. since you seem very worried about this... let me just be very clear: Eagle, if you felt I was busting your balls in any way, I sincerely apologize. Everyone feel better now? Group {{{{{HUG}}}}}? Mys
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Much better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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MYS,
I am fully aware that she will break NC if she really wants to. That is a firm boundary.
I am very aware of POJA and how it works, have no problem with negotiation. Very good at it.
Not a problem, I believe if I hadn't cleared up a misconception we may have ahd words, but I am not that thin skinned. Thanks you for appology.
Mel thank you for chiming in here I always appreciate you hep, wisdom, counci, and guidance.
"Never argue with idiots or WSs, They just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
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Last edited by Eagle15; 05/02/06 07:39 AM.
"Never argue with idiots or WSs, They just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
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I'm mostly a human doing and the rest of the time a human being.
Effort is everything...is that a credo you have? Sort of, nothing comes of nothing, you must put forth the effort if you want something. So I guess effort is everything in a way. If you want a glass of water you have to put forth the effort to get up and get it, others have put forth the effort to get it piped to you house.
You can bump my thread anytime. I look forward to you posts, I don't always understand them, have to think very hard about them, ZEN like quality, but I do look forward to them and try to read whenever I see your posts.
"Never argue with idiots or WSs, They just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
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Thank you, Eagle... "Sort of, nothing comes of nothing, you must put forth the effort if you want something. So I guess effort is everything in a way. If you want a glass of water you have to put forth the effort to get up and get it, others have put forth the effort to get it piped to you house." Nothing comes of nothing? Hmmm. Weren't humans made from a thought, a desire...if you subscribe to God's creation...his intent mande manifest? Is nothing ever, really nothing? Or do we live by the nothing for nothing belief, along with the be productive, contribute, achieve, protect, secure, try, try again rules...which are handed down to us...like we're living others' lives all over again? Can you go to the sink and get a glass of love? Security? Is it piped into your house? And are we being productive, contributing, achieving, protecting, securing...in reaction to our fears? Of laziness, failure, inadequacy, defectiveness...like proof we aren't to ourselves and others? What if a lifetime isn't long enough to prove this? Because at any moment, no matter how much we vigilantly do, we could be lazy, inadequate, defective? If proving who you are instead of being who you are is what you believe, then can you ever get where you're going? And speaking to our human fears...what if we are productive for the joy of expressing who we are? What if we contribute because we can, knowing our talents and sharing ourselves? What if we can't fail because there is no try? What would being a human doing then look like? Would it look like walking fear and loss to you? I believed effort was everything my whole life. Beneath that belief was that I had to do in order to be...because just being was not achieving love, acceptance...and unless I demonstrated effort at all times, whatever love or acceptance I'd achieved could be taken away. I believe this is where I picked up life is a treadmill...and saw people with my child eyes not getting anywhere...full of regret, resentment and fear...mostly fear. Can you believe Plan A taught me this? It brought me to see this looped cycle, fueled by fear and expectations, where presence wasn't enough...action was my standard, and because my brain always demands balance, my standard for others? I measured myself by effort--didn't see the harm, the damage to my self--and I couldn't feel loved unless I saw the effort, contribution, achievement...felt insecure, on the edge of annihilation, a failure about to happen...while I waited to be chosen or not chosen, for sure. Then our MC told me to watch for absolutes...they are signals to us, when we answer with them...that my inner child was determining my life, not my adult self. I believed if effort was everything...because nothing came from nothing. Life lays inbetween...about halfway. I still go to the 180 (the absolute) to get to the 90 degrees...I'm hoping to see that moderate spot, the real one, without all this spinning someday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> LA
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LA,
I'm still digesting your last post. I put forth the effort because it is my will. It is what I want to do, whether or not I gain something from it. Eventually I gain peace and self respect from doing, I try not to ask for anything in return. I do the things I do for my family because it makes me happy. Why because I can do them, I can take care of them, I can take care of me. I do appreciate it when they do things for me, but I do things for them because I love them and I want to do things for them. I am not being forced, coerced, or driven, I do things freely from my heart. I choose to do these things.
Working on M is my choice, why? Because I do not feel that 1 mistake should define a person's life, especially my WW's life. If we were all perfect we would be unhappy and we would never learn anything. She has made a terrible mistake, made terrible choices, but she can recover, I would love to help her with her recovery. I have tried to help her, but I feel she is not receptive to my help. So I do not help unless requested. So far she has not asked for my help, she is holding everything in. We go on day by day, I know very little about her A. I know nothing about why she made that decision. One day when she is ready maybe she will tell me her story, it will hurt, I will get over it and we will be able to move forward together if that is her desire. I will move forward regardless. My choice if I get one this time is to move forward together as a team, equal partners. She says she wants this, I have tried to show her this is how it is and will be, but she apparently doesn't believe me. So I move forward alone, always with the hope she will want to catch up and walk with me. I stop frequently to give her the opportunity to catch up, but I know I can't make her.
"Never argue with idiots or WSs, They just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
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"Never argue with idiots or WSs, They just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
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Thanks for the bump, Eagle...I didn't see it.
"I put forth the effort because it is my will. It is what I want to do, whether or not I gain something from it." Eagle, this is me probing you to probe you...would you consider you see gain in effort? I am not heading for you to do nothing...I am heading to where you have balance in your life...your perspective...to be at peace just being, as well as just doing...
"Eventually I gain peace and self respect from doing, I try not to ask for anything in return." Peace comes from the inside...are you saying that you don't feel peace or respect yourself unless you are doing?
"I do the things I do for my family because it makes me happy. Why because I can do them, I can take care of them, I can take care of me. I do appreciate it when they do things for me, but I do things for them because I love them and I want to do things for them." Would you consider others doing and feeling the same?
"I am not being forced, coerced, or driven, I do things freely from my heart. I choose to do these things." Great to know. Lots of your power right there...do you feel resentment often, a little or not at all?
"Working on M is my choice, why? Because I do not feel that 1 mistake should define a person's life, especially my WW's life." Do you believe that many mistakes define a person's life...or the person? Do you believe we are who we are separate from a word spoken or an action taken? That there is a "you" and then there is stuff "you" do?
"but she can recover, I would love to help her with her recovery. I have tried to help her, but I feel she is not receptive to my help." Could this be where respect needs to be injected? Why does WW need help from you? What is so defective about her that she needs your help? She is as capable, whole and complete as you are...why help? Could this be why she isn't receptive to help...help with personal recovery? Could you specify what looks like "helping" to you?
"So I do not help unless requested. So far she has not asked for my help, she is holding everything in." This is a slight DJ...she may not be sharing with you, which is withholding...not necessarily holding it in...there's a difference, goes to intent.
"We go on day by day, I know very little about her A. I know nothing about why she made that decision. One day when she is ready maybe she will tell me her story, it will hurt, I will get over it and we will be able to move forward together if that is her desire." What about your desire? Can you see how you make her so powerful in your marriage? Her choices making yours by default? Or is that just me...Eagle, I could really be in a bad way today...no objectivity. I'm sorry.
"I will move forward regardless. My choice if I get one this time is to move forward together as a team, equal partners." You desire is to move forward together as a team...you are already equal...as partners...are you saying you've identified for you a lot about how you were in your marriage pre-A and how different you are now? Your choice is to stay, to wait, to listen, repeat, respect, learn and grow...that's what I'm hearing...desire and choice. Not in her power, yours.
"She says she wants this, I have tried to show her this is how it is and will be, but she apparently doesn't believe me." You can't show her how it is...you have your view of reality and she has hers...you can hear hers and she can hear yours...and so, you can't tel her how it will be, but what you are working toward for you.
"So I move forward alone, always with the hope she will want to catch up and walk with me." Big DJ...we are all together, one place, no linear thinking, one dimensionally living...that is you putting that on others. Know the difference between what she is not doing/believing that you want her to, and who she is being and choosing to do...bigger difference than you can imagine...which helps you.
"I stop frequently to give her the opportunity to catch up, but I know I can't make her." You stop for you. You do for you. You've got to get this or your annihilation of self through her will continue...Eagle...you're on your own journey...
I've got to run...I'll watch for your post...Thank you very much. I do know you're earnest, sincere and want very much to see life in a new way.
LA
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[color:"blue"] "I put forth the effort because it is my will. It is what I want to do, whether or not I gain something from it."[/color] Eagle, this is me probing you to probe you...would you consider you see gain in effort? I am not heading for you to do nothing...I am heading to where you have balance in your life...your perspective...to be at peace just being, as well as just doing... [color:"blue"] Yes I do see gain in effort. [/color]
[color:"blue"] "Eventually I gain peace and self respect from doing, I try not to ask for anything in return." [/color] Peace comes from the inside...are you saying that you don't feel peace or respect yourself unless you are doing? [color:"blue"] No, just that doing adds to that peace and I am content doing. [color:"blue"] [/color] [/color]
[color:"blue"]"I do the things I do for my family because it makes me happy. Why because I can do them, I can take care of them, I can take care of me. I do appreciate it when they do things for me, but I do things for them because I love them and I want to do things for them." [/color] Would you consider others doing and feeling the same? [color:"blue"]Yes I feel that there are a lot of people who feel and do for the same reasons. Self fulfillment comes to mind. I may not be able to do my whole life, but while I am able I want to, when I am not able I will still want to, maybe on a smaller scale. [/color]
[color:"blue"]"I am not being forced, coerced, or driven, I do things freely from my heart. I choose to do these things."[/color] Great to know. Lots of your power right there...do you feel resentment often, a little or not at all? [color:"blue"] I don't feel resentment unless I'm blind sided. By that I meanI'm doing for many others without a care in the world, but when someone comes up and kicks my teeth in for no apparent reason, whether or not I've done something for them I do feel resentment, mostly hurt, but some resentment. I do get over things quickly, I see the glass as half full, even on D-Day I saw the glass as half full. [/color]
[color:"blue"]"Working on M is my choice, why? Because I do not feel that 1 mistake should define a person's life, especially my WW's life." [/color] Do you believe that many mistakes define a person's life...or the person? Do you believe we are who we are separate from a word spoken or an action taken? That there is a "you" and then there is stuff "you" do? [color:"blue"] I believe there is a breakpoint, averages I guess? You know like if someone keeps kicking people over and over, sometimes the same people, sometimes many other different people, even they know it is wrong they still go around kicking people. Then they become a person I would not want to be around so I would not be around them. [/color]
[color:"blue"]"but she can recover, I would love to help her with her recovery. I have tried to help her, but I feel she is not receptive to my help." [/color] Could this be where respect needs to be injected? Why does WW need help from you? What is so defective about her that she needs your help? She is as capable, whole and complete as you are...why help? Could this be why she isn't receptive to help...help with personal recovery? Could you specify what looks like "helping" to you? [color:"blue"] I don't think so, I have shown respect for her and I believe I continue to show respect. She may not need my help, she is certainly not defective, and she is whole and complete. I guess it comes down to how I was raised, men are here to help, assist women whenever andwhere ever they can. Nothing bad intended so please do not take offense, but I was raised to believe that women are the weaker sex. Experience has also taught me that people may say that, but then they also say every successful man has a strong woman standing with him supporting him. I know I always felt that my wife and I complimented each other, if one was weak, the other was strong, if one was tired the other was rested, I also feel we are equal, but different due to our individual strengths and weaknesses. We brought ourselves together in marriage and created a team that was successful in most of our endevours, we worked together for a common goal, that I thought was our goal, now maybe not true[/color]
[color:"blue"]"So I do not help unless requested. So far she has not asked for my help, she is holding everything in." [/color] This is a slight DJ...she may not be sharing with you, which is withholding...not necessarily holding it in...there's a difference, goes to intent. [color:"blue"] It appears that she is more withholding her thoughts and feelings, but holding her emotions in, when the pressure get to be too much and they escape it is not pretty. [/color]
[color:"blue"]"We go on day by day, I know very little about her A. I know nothing about why she made that decision. One day when she is ready maybe she will tell me her story, it will hurt, I will get over it and we will be able to move forward together if that is her desire." [/color] What about your desire? Can you see how you make her so powerful in your marriage? Her choices making yours by default? Or is that just me...Eagle, I could really be in a bad way today...no objectivity. I'm sorry. [color:"blue"] My desire is to move forward together as equals as a team. I can see how this could be true, not in every decision, but in a lot of the decisions made as a family. No need to be sorry, you have posed some very interesting questions and I have had to give them a lot of thought.[/color]
[color:"blue"]"I will move forward regardless. My choice if I get one this time is to move forward together as a team, equal partners." [/color] You desire is to move forward together as a team...you are already equal...as partners...are you saying you've identified for you a lot about how you were in your marriage pre-A and how different you are now? Your choice is to stay, to wait, to listen, repeat, respect, learn and grow...that's what I'm hearing...desire and choice. Not in her power, yours. [color:"blue"] Your statement would be true, however I really don't think I have changed that much. I mean I think that I ahve not been very far away from this pre-A. I have always had the power to act on my own regardless of anyone else's opinions or feelings. I have chosen not to run rampant, used to when I was young, learned that that is not always the best way, but I have always known I can and that I will accept the consequences of my actions, maybe not with gusto, but I will accept them and not whine or cry about it. After I did choose to do things and if they turned out bad or hurt someone it was my choice and I did do it sooooooo.[/color]
[color:"blue"]"She says she wants this, I have tried to show her this is how it is and will be, but she apparently doesn't believe me." [/color] You can't show her how it is...you have your view of reality and she has hers...you can hear hers and she can hear yours...and so, you can't tel her how it will be, but what you are working toward for you. [color:"blue"] I ahve made it known that I can and will move on with or without her, I prefer and choose to move forward with her. If she chooses not to, I will be sad for a while, but life goes on and I will continue to move forward with my life.[/color]
[color:"blue"]"So I move forward alone, always with the hope she will want to catch up and walk with me." [/color] Big DJ...we are all together, one place, no linear thinking, one dimensionally living...that is you putting that on others. Know the difference between what she is not doing/believing that you want her to, and who she is being and choosing to do...bigger difference than you can imagine...which helps you. [color:"blue"] I'm not sure I understand this. [/color]
[color:"blue"]"I stop frequently to give her the opportunity to catch up, but I know I can't make her." [/color] You stop for you. You do for you. You've got to get this or your annihilation of self through her will continue...Eagle...you're on your own journey... [color:"blue"] You are right I do stop for me as I want her to walk with me, move forward with me. I enjoy company and hers the most. I am used to walking alone, have done it too many times. [/color]
"Never argue with idiots or WSs, They just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
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Thank you very much for your response, Eagle. I can see where you took a lot of time and thought. I appreciate you. And I loved the blue. I'm trying it in another color...if I can. Ack. Don't hold me to it, please. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am divided on my response. I feel helpless, as I have many times in reading your posts...there is something here, in me, which holds on and holds back...feels futile. This is something I've needed to face in myself...so thank you very much for bringing me to this...my intent is to ask for something sacred in you to be open, which will help me. I know I'm asking a lot. Do you fear being manipulated? I'm still digging into my holding on/back stuff. Do you believe I will lead you to my beliefs, negate your own, in some way? This was a difficult answer, I feel, from you. I see you as a bundle of raw effort, conscious, careful intent and something strident in you. Might be me projecting onto you, but I smell fear. Fear of being wrong, misunderstood, judged...unless judged well. Is being judged well important to you? [color:"blue"] [/color] "Yes I do see gain in effort." [color:"black"] [/color] Would you say you believe gain in effort and loss in lack of effort? When I'm wheedling my own beliefs out from the inside, so I can see them, sometimes I have to flip them over...beliefs have duality built in...like "Humans do damage. God doesn't." Like beliefs are currency with two sides...same belief, which allows us to operate from one side or the other, believing them the same. Some aren't. I believed first, "Good people don't do damage." Which wasn't flipped over to read, "Humans do damage" because then, "Good people aren't human" would have to follow. The example I give, not pertinent necessarily to yours. I would appreciate hearing yours. I need some new discoveries here. I think I believe I'm wearing out a perfectly good example. When you read my post awhile back, on another thread, about you being...a human being, not a human doing...what did you feel? You had a reaction. What was it? I believe you do feel joy, reward and peace through your choices of action...I believe you express to others who you are through your acts of love...experiencing generosity by acting generous; care through caring; kindness through acting kind...and this "acting" is not like in the movies...I mean it in choosing acts, actions...having a difficult conjugation night, I guess. I wanted to phrase those carefully--generosity by acting generous--because I want to ask you if you believe it is possible to be generous...without acting it. To be caring, kind, supportive, honest, attentive, aware, accepting...without a single action. When you answer, would you also include if you feel any fear in it, any freedom, heavy responsibility or repugnance? Whatever you feel would be appreciated. "Yes I feel that there are a lot of people who feel and do for the same reasons." Do you believe your family is included in that "lot of people"? "I believe there is a breakpoint, averages I guess? You know like if someone keeps kicking people over and over, sometimes the same people, sometimes many other different people, even they know it is wrong they still go around kicking people. Then they become a person I would not want to be around so I would not be around them." What do you feel about the person who is repeatedly kicked? Would you consider that as humans, we can feel kicked when we are not being? I ask this in general, not your present situation. Can you telescope out (gosh, I am having a hard time with images tonight) to get to your wider belief, as we are phrasing it here...not your wife kicking you...but those "others"? You pointed out two contradictory beliefs inside of you, which came in from the outside...what people say...females are the weaker sex; and behind every successful man there is a strong woman (pushing him all the way...how I heard it). Can I share a story with you? Don't know why I'm asking. I was raised with a lot of these same beliefs...my father saying some, and my mother saying others. In the early '60's, my parents had parties...and part of the show was my sister and I coming out before bedtime, to mingle and talk grownup...show how composed and appropriate we were. I also think, due to the liquor around, it was a set up for "kid's say the darnedest things" entertainment. I loved to play grown up, so I enjoyed these times. Once, a man there pulled me onto his lap and asked, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" And I promptly responded, as seriously as any six-year-old, "A nun." My parents beamed and applauded. "A nun?" the man said, disbelieving. "Yes. And then a priest." Insert general laughter. This really happened, just sounds like a routine to me now. "A priest! Girls can't be priests." I looked at my father, fearful that this man was telling me the truth. "But then how do I get to be Pope?" Gales of laughter... I went to bed heartbroken, honestly. I was tight with God and felt betrayed he had not let me in on the details about humans, gender limitations and injustice in his church. Later, I would channel that into stand up. I know you can see the connection. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> My story is to illustrate that before I had a parent telling me I could be anything, do anything...I believed I could. I believed in choice, in God, in equality and opportunity. Then I didn't. One strange man at a party and I changed my belief. Why? Really...if you consider it...why? Because I didn't know I couldn't. I didn't know beliefs were chosen...that we chose them...I took them in...like sleuthing truth instead of making it my own. So my question is knowing you have these two beliefs, from the outside, what do you choose to believe? In your adult experience with genders, how much or how little does gender matter, affecting our perspectives, interests, talents, abilities...because I believe Mother Theresa would have made a fine Pope...and she didn't want the job. I did. I'm asking for your truth...not your image, but from your self...would you consider these as two separate selves in you...the one made up of beliefs coming in...and the true self, the one God created, as is, complete, whole...with all the abilities, talents, perspectives, interests and desires of one soul; unique and separate? You sound certain of yourself...knowing yourself...having your standards and holding yourself accountable to them. Do you hold others to them? When I said "slight DJ" and "Big DJ" you didn't address whether or not you saw or believed your belief was a DJ...you addressed your choice of action. Could you tell me if you believe you DJ'd or not? Not great phrasing there, either. Darn. After my story, I thought I was doing better. Okay...would you tell me if you believe you did DJ and if so, how you feel about that? Or if you didn't, how you feel about that? "I enjoy company and hers the most." Have you told MrsEagle this lately? LA And as you can see, I didn't figure out the color thing.
Last edited by LovingAnyway; 05/17/06 11:46 PM.
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OP
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 957 |
LA,
Thank you for posting back so soon. The color thing is easy, first type up your post, hit continue, then you will see the color block on the lower right. Click on a color and you will see some brackets in the first set it will say color:BLUE, and the second set will say color you clicked on. Type in the open space or you can cut and paste the brackets {{Color:Blue}} at the begining and {{Color}} at the end, when you click continue again it will change your text to the color you selected.
Do you fear being manipulated? [color:"blue"]Yes as it makes me feel I am being tricked into something I wouldn't normally do. [/color] I'm still digging into my holding on/back stuff. Do you believe I will lead you to my beliefs, negate your own, in some way? [color:"blue"]No, I believe you will help me open my eyes to my true beliefs. I believe this because after reading a ton of your posts you are not trying to move people to a specific belief, but to help them open up to themselves. Just my opinion and perception of your posts and what I've seen in the responses you get. I feel I have gotten a pretty good feel for the kind of person you are and I feel you can be trusted to help (DO) with no other ulterior motive than your personal satisfaction that comes from helping others. [/color] This was a difficult answer, I feel, from you.
I see you as a bundle of raw effort, conscious, careful intent and something strident in you. Might be me projecting onto you, but I smell fear. Fear of being wrong, misunderstood, judged...unless judged well. Is being judged well important to you? [color:"blue"] True, I don't like being wrong maybe fear it, but I learn from it, grow from what I've learned. I also try to learn from my mistakes. I am misunderstood a lot, doesn't bother me much, but does to some extent. I want to be judged well, it is improtant to me, but sometimes it can't be helped. It does upset me, so I look for the lesson in there and try to impprove and grow from the lesson. Maybe a defense mechanism to keep from being judged poorly or neing seen in a bad light. [/color]
"Yes I do see gain in effort."
Would you say you believe gain in effort and loss in lack of effort? [color:"blue"] Yes to some extent, mainly because I ahe had to work hard and put forth a lot of effort to get the things I want out of life. Nothing has ever been just handed to me, no strings attached. [/color]
When I'm wheedling my own beliefs out from the inside, so I can see them, sometimes I have to flip them over...beliefs have duality built in...like "Humans do damage. God doesn't." Like beliefs are currency with two sides...same belief, which allows us to operate from one side or the other, believing them the same.
Some aren't.
I believed first, "Good people don't do damage." Which wasn't flipped over to read, "Humans do damage" because then, "Good people aren't human" would have to follow. [color:"blue"]I can see this, but I believe good people make mistakes, it is unfortunate, but it happens. This doesn't make them into bad people, just good people who maybe had a lapse in judgement or found themselves in bad circumstances. Flip side, we are all human and generally try to do good, we are prone to mistakes, but we can learn and grow from the lessons our mistakes provide. [/color]
The example I give, not pertinent necessarily to yours. I would appreciate hearing yours. I need some new discoveries here. I think I believe I'm wearing out a perfectly good example.
When you read my post awhile back, on another thread, about you being...a human being, not a human doing...what did you feel? You had a reaction. What was it? [color:"blue"] First eraction was WOW, I need to think about this. I felt this may be something I needed hear and do. My curiosity went up. I gave it some serious thought. [/color]
I believe you do feel joy, reward and peace through your choices of action...I believe you express to others who you are through your acts of love...experiencing generosity by acting generous; care through caring; kindness through acting kind...and this "acting" is not like in the movies...I mean it in choosing acts, actions...having a difficult conjugation night, I guess.
I wanted to phrase those carefully--generosity by acting generous--because I want to ask you if you believe it is possible to be generous...without acting it. To be caring, kind, supportive, honest, attentive, aware, accepting...without a single action. [color:"blue"] I guess you could, but I don't know how. If I have done it in the past I didn't recognize it. Could it be that by being known as this type of person others who have no experience with you still respect you based on a reputation? I don't think I fear it, I can see where there could be freedom in it. I don't see any heavy responsibility or repugnance there. There would be some responsibility, to yourself and others, to continue so you could continue receiving or generating thos positive good feelings.[/color]
When you answer, would you also include if you feel any fear in it, any freedom, heavy responsibility or repugnance? Whatever you feel would be appreciated.
"Yes I feel that there are a lot of people who feel and do for the same reasons."
Do you believe your family is included in that "lot of people"? [color:"blue"] Yes [/color]
"I believe there is a breakpoint, averages I guess? You know like if someone keeps kicking people over and over, sometimes the same people, sometimes many other different people, even they know it is wrong they still go around kicking people. Then they become a person I would not want to be around so I would not be around them."
What do you feel about the person who is repeatedly kicked? [color:"blue"] I feel bad for them, want to help them, maybe even defend them. If it is someone close to me I would help them, shield them, defend them, fight their battle if they are not able or fight beside them if they are able. [/color]
Would you consider that as humans, we can feel kicked when we are not being? I ask this in general, not your present situation. Can you telescope out (gosh, I am having a hard time with images tonight) to get to your wider belief, as we are phrasing it here...not your wife kicking you...but those "others"? [color:"blue"] Sure you can feel kicked whenever you feel or percieve you are being wronged. Sometimes just not getting what you want feels like being kicked, even when what you want could hurt you. [/color]
You pointed out two contradictory beliefs inside of you, which came in from the outside...what people say...females are the weaker sex; and behind every successful man there is a strong woman (pushing him all the way...how I heard it). [color:"blue"] True, you heard it as it was intended. It is a contradiction in a way, but most men have been raised to lead, take care of women, "Knight in Shinning Armor" type of thing. So from their training (the way they were raised) they bring certain elements and behaviors to the table. Women are generally raised to be nurturers, not necessarily damsels in distress, but somewhat dependent on men, also supportive of men. They bring these behaviors to the table. Either standing alone are quite capable and able to move through life. Together they can compliment each other, fill weak of empty areas for the other, help each other learn to fill the emptyness on their own without having to have another help, but have or allow the other enhance their lot in life.[/color]
Can I share a story with you? [color:"blue"] Sure. [/color] Don't know why I'm asking. I was raised with a lot of these same beliefs...my father saying some, and my mother saying others.
In the early '60's, my parents had parties...and part of the show was my sister and I coming out before bedtime, to mingle and talk grownup...show how composed and appropriate we were. I also think, due to the liquor around, it was a set up for "kid's say the darnedest things" entertainment. I loved to play grown up, so I enjoyed these times.
Once, a man there pulled me onto his lap and asked, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" And I promptly responded, as seriously as any six-year-old, "A nun." My parents beamed and applauded. "A nun?" the man said, disbelieving. "Yes. And then a priest."
Insert general laughter. This really happened, just sounds like a routine to me now.
"A priest! Girls can't be priests."
I looked at my father, fearful that this man was telling me the truth. "But then how do I get to be Pope?"
Gales of laughter...
I went to bed heartbroken, honestly. I was tight with God and felt betrayed he had not let me in on the details about humans, gender limitations and injustice in his church.
Later, I would channel that into stand up. I know you can see the connection.
My story is to illustrate that before I had a parent telling me I could be anything, do anything...I believed I could. I believed in choice, in God, in equality and opportunity. Then I didn't. One strange man at a party and I changed my belief.
Why?
Really...if you consider it...why? Because I didn't know I couldn't. I didn't know beliefs were chosen...that we chose them...I took them in...like sleuthing truth instead of making it my own.
So my question is knowing you have these two beliefs, from the outside, what do you choose to believe? In your adult experience with genders, how much or how little does gender matter, affecting our perspectives, interests, talents, abilities...because I believe Mother Theresa would have made a fine Pope...and she didn't want the job. I did.
I'm asking for your truth...not your image, but from your self...would you consider these as two separate selves in you...the one made up of beliefs coming in...and the true self, the one God created, as is, complete, whole...with all the abilities, talents, perspectives, interests and desires of one soul; unique and separate? [color:"blue"] I believe that one person cannot do it all, cannot be the be all do all person, that would be God. I do believe that you can choose to be around people who compliment my attributes, I can team up with, work with to help solve our problems together, learn together, and move forward together with, also it's nice to have company. [/color]
You sound certain of yourself...knowing yourself...having your standards and holding yourself accountable to them. Do you hold others to them? [color:"blue"] Not really, but then again I try to set an example, if it works for you great, if not your call. I can't make anyone do something they are adamantly against. [/color]
When I said "slight DJ" and "Big DJ" you didn't address whether or not you saw or believed your belief was a DJ...you addressed your choice of action. Could you tell me if you believe you DJ'd or not? Not great phrasing there, either. Darn. After my story, I thought I was doing better. Okay...would you tell me if you believe you did DJ and if so, how you feel about that? Or if you didn't, how you feel about that? [color:"blue"] "Slight DJ" Could be or could be just my perception from a position that has been excluded. "Big DJ" Could be seen a such, but I think more of a wishfull and hopefull thought and feeling than a DJ. It would depend on which side you are on and how you feel as to how you would percieve and recieve it.[/color]
"I enjoy company and hers the most."
Have you told MrsEagle this lately? [color:"blue"]Yes in words and actions. I believe she would tell you she has never had to question how I felt about her and even today how I feel about her. On the other hand I have always had to ask her or look for her feelings about me. I thought I was comfortable with our relationship and our feelings for each other, comfortable enough to agree to a 2 year seperation when she had to move to Japan. Again when she was required to move to Oklahoma, when I felt things were starting to go bad I offered to quit my job, sell our houses, and move to Oklahoma to put our family back together, I had had enough of being away from her, our kids wanted all of us to be together as well. She said no it would be financial suicide. I said I ahve been there before, I can get another job we can always make more money, not a problem. I will do this for us, no regrets, I jsut want our family back together as one.[/color]
"Never argue with idiots or WSs, They just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
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