TOW is a forum for other women- www dot gloryb dot com pink board

so what?

her H doesn't even know his wife has had a date with OM !

what difference could my little temper tantrum possibly make?

What I do or do not do has no bearing on this issue ... I needed a safe place to vent my feelings

The thread on Recovery began on a different subject ~prior~ to Jen's disclosure ... and then it morphed into ME discussing MY anger ... so as not to polute this thread... leave me alone!

Pep

The Other Woman

Noodle, I did not know of the other encounter. You are probably right that it contributed to the later downfalls.

It still galls me no end to see anyone say that a quick chat was not too bad, since they didn't intend to meet there. I really don't care whether either one intended it or not. The other FWS's will disregard this lesson to their peril. There is no safe contact. Ever.

This sad story just brings that home in a very personal way. (Not that I needed convincing.)

Giving someone the cut direct is not a chat. Or were you not talking to me? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

t&l

(Just to be clear, it was not Jen who said that a little chat was not bad.)

Mom, I think I would accept that scenario as one compatible with continuing my marriage, but the role of seeming cowardice is so much safer. Run away! Run away!

TOW

T~THE
O~Other
W~Woman

However, I would advise you to stay away from there and
stick to this Marriage Builders forum. I checked it once
and it is gaggy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

NSYN,

The FWS does not see the OP the same way the BS does and never will.

Yes, having a quick friendly chat with OW..would indeed be just like having a quick and friendly chat with my rapist..not in truth..but with regard to MY feelings

and yet

It ISN'T the same with the former lovers. That IS NOT the relationship that they had together. So from their perspective..

You see what I'm saying?

Lack of empathy for the BS is key..why the BS is [and must be] in a place of such diminishment that they ARE NOT taken into GRAVE consideration when making the choice to engage or bail.

Stan-ley,

TOW is mostly for CURRENT OW... MB is for FORMER OW... which is most likely WHY you won't see FWW's say they long, pine or even remotely like the OM.

I don't care about the OM. I don't care if he's happy, sad, what he says about me, what he thinks about the universe, or anything else. I have friends who work with him, and they know to never even pass a hello from him to me, or to tell me anything about him. As in: NOTHING. I don't want to know.

Being here (on MB) brings these feelings up again and again... there ARE some (hopefully many) FWS's around here who despise, or at least are *truly* indifferent to the OM. I swear on a stack of Bibles (I mean this sincerely) that I harbor NO warm fuzzies and get sick to my stomach when he does enter my mind (which is luckily very occassional - like when a song plays that was popular at the time of the affair). My affair began and ended in a five month period in early 1999. It's been years. I'm not going back. Not EVER. There is such thing as a WS who wants nothing to do with the affair partner.

Hi Stanley,

Thanks for posting this.

You brought clarity to what I had already suspected. My WW pines for the OM so much it is pathetic.

He is her "soulmate". Her one and only. She worships the ground he walks on. I overheard a phone conversation she had with him one morning and you would have thought she was talking to a movie star. She gushed all over the living room.

Never mind that he is a serial predator according to his XW. He has had too many affairs for her to count, each victim convinced she was his soulmate.

Most WW will always have fond memories of, and boundless love for, the OM. I have always believed that reality serves a useful purpose. When one pretends it doesn't exist, that tall fruit tree can fall on their house.

Why are we messaging back and forth when we could talk on the phone? I guess because the phone is in the other room and I don't want to go and get it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I'm not advocating deliberate contact, I hope you understand. But if Gargamel saw AJ in the store, and before she could speak to him, saw him abandon his cart of food and flee the premises, is it possible that she would perceive this as an indicator that the remaining attraction of his feelings for her were so strong he didn't even dare the briefest exposure of his iron filings to her womanly maggot? I mean, magnet? Where if he bumped into her coming around a corner, and gave her a cold, very brief, unmistakable rejection, followed by a powerful, controlled manly exit, I think it would be hard for a woman, even a foggy one, to put much of a good or flattering or validating spin on THAT one. That's what I think. I think.

t&l

thndrnlitng. What you just said, that is what I think also.
I think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Maybe you're right.

Run away! Run away! But do it in a manly fashion!

Maggots. Ew.

Gargamel, with Neak's husband's assistance, of course, put my daughter through H-E-DoubleQ on earth, and there's still radioactive fallout in Nirvana from it. Why shouldn't the OW get a good smackdown, if accidental contact is unavoidable? I also think it would make the FWS feel stronger and more powerful, and maybe, too, in some way perceive that they had made a very small atonement for their previous betrayal. Do I think that? I think so.

t&l

OK, OK. Run away. But be rude first. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

t&l

There is no back stabbing going on with Peps thread. Let's get that straight. What is going on is that the people in Recovery were hard hit with Jen's betrayel with the OM. They are expressing their views and feelings about it on their own forum. They have every right to discuss this topic as it hits home to all of us who are recovering. It is scary stuff and in our eyes incredibly wrong and goes against all that MB strives to incorporate.

This thread has opened alot of wounds for recovering BS's and we cannot condemn Pep or anyone else's opinions on this matter. Therefore, I believe that I am in the wrong forum as I am recovering with my H and feel that it would be much healthier to my recovery if I move forward to the right forum.

Steping away from this now. Good Luck Jen and Rob

thn:

It's like an alcoholic taking a sip to prove he isn't an alcoholic. You know that can't happen.

It proves nothing to anyone... and in fact, brings harm. Even if it never goes further because...

Play too close to the fire... get burned. It is the law of nature. As adults, we don't need to learn the lesson again, do we?

An atonement, in my opinion, would be something along the lines of moving away from the affair partner, even if it's out of state... leaving a church or job where there might be accidental contact... sending and sticking to a true NC letter...

Also, and I can speak from experience, when my (now ex-)H ran into one of the OW's after the affair... he *said* he didn't talk to her and brought home a note she left on his windshield... she, by the way, followed him to the gas station to ask him if he received the note. He told me this, too, but only after I kept on him because I KNEW there was more to the story. He got in her car to tell her he couldn't even talk to her and she drove away with him in the car... and said she'd bring him back when he let her have her say. So they had a smoke together while she cried and cussed at him. I have no idea what he said... and it doesn't matter anymore.

None of this made me feel less worried about what really happened in that car. NC has to mean NC... or it means nothing at all.

Well this is quite interesting.

And it has put me in the mood to stretch some boundaries. As I am not known for mincing words, I am about to make a few inflammatory statements.

Please do not jump down my throat, as I am attempting to illustrate only. And I am going to throw out some "common" stereotypes for those purposes, they are not necessarily reflective of my personal beliefs.

Let's suppose KiwiJ was raised in a bigoted white euro home where the african american race was not tolerated, and considered "lesser" as in the typical culture that Ms. Parks and Dr. King fought so hard to eradicate. And let's suppose that KiwiJ were in fact actually attracted to males of this "lesser" race and made the choice to hide her feelings for years, only to finally realize that it was more important to be true to herself at age 50 and come out and say to her family that she could not hide those feelings any longer, engendering the wrath of her black-hating mother and father and probably ostracizing herself from her family for the rest of her life. I would ask you, how would you feel about her decision? To a one, I would expect that you would find this choice to be "right" and "noble." Nobody (well, actually few) condone (at least in public) this kind of racism these days.

Change gears.

KiwiJ is a lesbian. And has fought that down for years out of fear for ostracization and censure from her family. And at age 50, she leaves her husband, breaks up her family, to eschew her true feelings. How about now? Would EVERYONE still condone that as "right" and "noble"? I doubt the "Amen, NCWalkers" would be as numerous, given today's climate. But is the decision any DIFFERENT?

Change gears again.

KiwiJ never REALLY loved her husband. But continued in the marriage out of duty. And fear of ostracizing herself from her family. And now at 50 (or so) decides her heart really belonged with the OM. Is THAT any different? Sounds like the same pattern to me. How many will give me an "Amen, NCWalker" on THAT one?

So be VERY careful if you are sitting in judgement of KiwiJ right now. Be VERY careful what you label "right" and "wrong."

So let's look a few scenarios....

Scenario #1: Kiwi is in this marriage out of a sense of duty. It is a "good" thing, in that it fits the societal model of a husband, wife, and a few kids, reasonably contributing to society and a somewhat reasonable image of Ward and June, or your family of choice from the television. But it really was a mistake. And Kiwi has been sucking up this lie all along to "appease the powers that be." And reaches the decision NOW in the autumn of her life that that is what happened. And she now chooses the OM. If she is willing to face the legal consequences of breaking the marriage, if she is willing to face the ramifications of what her children will think, if she is willing to OWN the choice of choosing the OM, who are we to say that is WRONG??? The only thing I would be willing to say is that it is shameful that it took her so long to come to that conclusion for her husband's sake. Shameful and said, especially if he was led to believe that it was OK. But maybe HE would be happier too. Maybe HE would find someone else who REALLY appreciated him, instead of stayed married out of duty. Who are we to say that could not happen? Or will not?

What if it kills her husband? Last I heard, there is pretty much general consensus accross ALL religions that we are basically in charge of OURSELVES. The "devil made me do it" isn't really a reasonable defense for ones actions. We (hopefully) act in accordance to what we believe and know to be right. And many times (unfortunately) act according to what we want, of feel we need. So I would not say that she should continue this lie, if a lie it is, in this Scenario #1 that I have posed out of the sake of protecting her husband. And "fake" feelings for her husband out of a sense of duty. IF AND ONLY IF she is willing to accept the consequences of the choice either way.

So if she CHOOSES the OM at this point, is that really wrong? There are some marriages that "should not have been." Face facts. How is ANY of our judgement when we have just learned that you don't wipe your nose on your sleeve?

It would be UNFORTUNATE if Kiwi were lying to herself all this time for her, her kids, and for her husband. But if the truth comes out NOW, why is it WRONG?

Scenario #2: Kiwi really DOES love Rob, made a big mistake, and was a little too cocky about what she could handle r.e. the OM. We have now entered the realm of bad judgement. If this is the case, she SHOULD have known better. But again, be VERY careful about what we burn her at the stake for. The sad truth is no matter what we feel from a MORAL point of view as wrong, there will be plenty of people who feel it is OK. As a society, we have to coexisist with a set of rules so that we can be reasonably interact with some certainty that things will be consistent. So we get together and make laws. And EVERYTHING ELSE matters NOT to what we can and cannot DO. Or anyone else for that matter. Laws dictate through common acceptance what we and those in our community can and cannot do. Morals ONLY determine what we ourselves (and NO OTHERS) WILL and WILL NOT do. There is a BIG difference. So if KiwiJ hasn't broken any laws, she is STILL OK and we should be reticent before we cast any stones.

The dust has not settled yet. So if scenario 2 is the case, we have a difficult choice. There is a REAL RISK that her husband will have had enough, and end the marriage at this point. In the face of Kiwi learning a valuable lesson... that she REALLY COULDN'T handle it. Before we say "she should have know better" and judge, I would pose that if the message were THAT CLEAR, this would never happen again. But in reality, I would bet quite a bit of money that some other WS who also knows these materials will find themselves in the SAME situation - a relapse with an OP. If the message was THAT clear, why would it happen again and again? Sorry folks, as Mark Twain says, "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other." At this point, Kiwi is at worst, only foolish. Frankly, in either scenario. In this one for courting danger as she did, in #1 for continuing a farce and calling it a marriage. But I am not willing to extend a "bad" label to her at this point.

And this is a big thing. For the OM could indeed be "playing" her. A significant risk. I, personally, would put money on that. Because if he felt the same way, where has he been all this time? There is the possibility that he, too, has come to the same conclusion, he and Kiwi were always right for each other. But that is a COMPLETE unknown to all of us. We only "know" what Kiwi allows us, consciously or unconsciously, to know. And it would not be a certainty for her, either. The best we can do, is hazard an educated guess.

None of us REALLY know what is going on inside her head right now.

There are only two things that I do know, and only two things for which I personally would pass judgement.

The first is, no matter what her choice, she needs to be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN when she makes it. Because either way, she is stealing from too many people. The OM, her husband, her kids, even us. We are comitting parts of our lives in this current development. Effort, energy, chi, whatever you want to call it, those of us who support her, and even her detractors. But unlike us, her husband and kids have a bigger stake in it, more reason to NOT walk away. Each of us can just ignore her posts, if we so choose, but THEY have a big stake in Kiwi making certain. It is akin to having to pick which one of two friends gets to die, and which gets to live. For if she chooses not, BOTH will rot away. I will not bust her chops for her choice, but I will if she waffles on it. That is akin to torturing her poor husband. Which leads to the second thing...

That her husband ALSO be given the same choice. For those that would say he would be better off not knowing, I would say since when does "less hurt" mean "better off?" The ONLY circumstance I would consider it wrong for him to know is if they had an agreement where he said "If it happens again, I would rather not know about it." Better for her? Perhaps easier, in the short term. But if she continues a lie, or hides the truth and he finds out through other means, what then?

No.

From where I sit, as full of sins and mistakes as the rest of us, Kiwi is OK by me with WHATEVER her choice as long as

1) she means it when she chooses,
2) and does not deny her husband his freedom of choice.

NCW

Quote

2) and does not deny her husband his freedom of choice.

As a former twice betrayed spouse, this is the one thing I wished I would have had ... THE TRUTH ... so I could decide for myself instead of being manipulated.

Please tell him, Jen.

Jo

NCW

That was a magnificent post.

I don't blame KiwiJ one ioda. I even told my wife that if I fall in love with another woman I am a goner. The truth of the matter is that many people that have affairs actually fall in love with OP. The only reason the affair fails is because it has no solid base-------the relationship is constructed on BS. However, the affair partners feel the real deal (love) and if given a choice with little to pay they would fly away.

The only scenario where returning to the marriage makes sense is when OP simply provides one EN that can easiy be provided by the betrayed spouse (if he or she desires to do so). In this instance the OP can only do one EN and is unable to do the other ENs. This limitation is pronptly recognized by the wayward spouse and the affair ends. However, if OP can do all ENs as well as the BH and then some more---------there is a problem.