PS.....It just occurred to me after several of the above comments that it might have seemed as if I was holier-than-thouing myself above those on the recovery board.

For the record, let me say I am all in favor of venting in secluded areas away from the conflict.

One last note for the road. I agree that if contact is deliberately courted, even if it's to prove one's strength, personal growth, and I'm-so-over-it-ness, just one sip is a bad idea. For Neak and her husband, living in a small rural county with only one actual small town where there are markets and stores, planning to move away <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> but unable to financially accomplish it yet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> (Hey! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> She's my baby. It wasn't MY idea to be sending her off to Tornado Alley in northern Oklahoma! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />)...every time either of them leave their house during this moving, preparing time, they run the risk of at least drive-by contact. I think cold indifference at the first accidental meeting, and an absolute refusal to acknowledge any subsequent accidental meetings by word or even look doesn't have to harm the wayward and may do more to convince her, by his frigid rejection of any awareness of her presence, that this beast they called [color:"red"] LOVE [/color] is finally gone.

But that only counts if they're true accidents. Wittle Oopsies! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> "Well, look who's here by, heh, heh, SURPRISE!!!!! Giggle. Titter. Snort..." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> are a whole nuther ball game.

t&l

ncwalker -

I can appreciate the situations you describe, but the proper course of action is the same in all cases if the person is M'd or in a committed relationship. The person should first end the M (or R) and wait an appropriate amount of time BEFORE having contact with a FOP or having an EA or a PA or whatever. If the new life/person is really meant to be, then it/she/he will wait.

Stanley,

Likewise, if you are protecting your M and not allowing feelings to develop, then you will not fall in love with someone other than your spouse. It does NOT just happen. It starts somewhere, and can be stopped before you get to the "love" part or the PA part or whatever it gets to. People can (and should) just walk away.

I don't post much, and I'll probably get blasted for this post. My point in posting this is that I hope this thread develops into a discussion of MB practices & how to use it throughout life.

nts,

I wholeheartedly agree. One should end before the other begins. But I would call that the PREFERRED course of action. She is, sadly, past that one. The proper one would be honoring her husband. And that is done with the truth, in whatever form that takes.

What bothers me is the potential for waffling. Not the choice. If she chooses OM and means it, I am OK with that. Yeah, a crappy thing to do to H, but better than living a lie to him. That is what my X did, and in truth, I am better off without her than having her in my life, but living a lie.

It never should happen this way. But it has. The only thing left is what next...

a) Don't go back to H. Say goodbye TODAY, follow the dream, and don't insult him further. (BTW, hope the dream comes true. Not statistically likely).

b) Go back to H and friggin MEAN it. And after this time, she doesn't have a lot of "terms." Nor should she expect them. None. His way or the highway, for at this point, protecting his trust should be her life's mission.

My point is - we can't say it is "wrong" for Kiwi to leave her husband. Only that it is wrong to keep betraying him. It would be a lie to go back to him and not tell him what happened. But it would be no less of a lie to go back out of some sense of "duty" and hate being married, all the while pretending she loved him.

Now if this TRULY was a mistake, and it very well could be, the right thing to do is tell the H. Otherwise you steal HIS right to be happy. This NC breach may be enough for him.

I am not looking KiwiJ in the eyes when she tells us what she is telling us. I think motive and intent cannot be gleaned from this. What I only see is a scared woman. And rightfully so. Scared of where her heart is at. Scared of what her H will do. A fearful state of mind is NOT conducive to good choices. And it is easy to judge her choices when we are not in her fearful state. The only way out of this mess is

1) lose the fear
2) make the choice
3) stick by it

Like I said before. Unless he said "If you do it again, I don't want to know," he wants to know.

But it does NOT take away from anything Kiwi has done to help on this board. It does not devalue any point she has made that stands on its own merits.

I myself have learned important life lessons from preachers and bibles, but also from drunks and liquor bottles. The lessons from both were valuable.

Jenny

If you have been settling for Rob, and your last two years of self-delusion have not been successful, then you need to tell Rob this so that you can split and get on with your lives honestly.

If you truly love Rob and want to be with him, and this was just a sobriety test, you failed it and yu must tell Rob and hope he has it in his heart to help you get back on the wagon.

If you are confused, you need to tell Rob so that he can make a contribution to the discussion of confusion too.

There is no way, IMO, that your actions can be presented to Rob that will not make him feel settled for and ultimately rejected Jenny.

Rob has earned the right to be treated properly in this IMO. Even if it releases pain and leads to divorce you have to tell him IMO.

Who knows ? He's forgiven you before, maybe he will again ?

Whatever happens Jenny,please don't settle for Rob. Not again.

Dave

NCW,

"If she chooses OM and means it, I am OK with that."

I have two problems with this - maybe you can clarify for me:

1. It appears to be a thorough repudiation of MB methods. They don’t work so why are we even here?

2. It’s not ethical. Aside from morals, sin, choosing pain, or avoidance of pain – one should keep their promises. It’s pure ethics. Keep your promises or renegotiate before unilaterally breaking them.

One could, I suppose, interpret your posts to mean it’s OK for anyone to have an A, sample the wares so to speak, and then choose. As long as they choose, sooner than later. And pretty much at any point in one's M.

You reasoning seems to apply to all of life. Contracts, promises to children or elderly parents, treaties between countries, civil laws.

I can’t believe you mean this. It must be irony or something.

Then again, maybe this is the excuse I have been waiting for.

Jen,

I feel sad. For you, for Rob, for OM's BW. I even feel bad for OM.

I wish you well, and I will say a special prayer for all of you tonight.

Aphelion,

Hello, can you please help me understand why you feel bad for OM?

Thank you.

Hi Aph

It appears to be a thorough repudiation of MB methods. They don’t work so why are we even here?

This is more a demonstration that MB works ( Extraordinary NC would have prevented this meeting I assume).

Also MB can't work against a person's will. Jen clearly wanted to do this. MB isn't brainwashing.

This sit makes me sad and a little scared too.

Some of you appear to have missed that my last words to OM were "you are a ****** and I'm not going down this path again." but that is completely immaterial. Because, if he hadn't proved himself to be a complete jerk (yet again) I don't know what would have happened.

I wouldn't have had another A, of that you can be sure. I would have told Rob and I would have divorced him. Do you really think I'm so stupid that I can't see all this? This has blindsided me. I've always admitted the OM has a huge pull on me. Duh. I've always admitted that I'm completely vulnerable when it comes to him. That is why NC was so important to me. Please re-read your Harley. B gets it.

Prescott (Bob you know I mean) made me sick. Really, really sick to my stomach.

A repudiation of Harley methods? No, it's not.

We are nearly 3 years on. Life is back to normal. Normal was never where I really wanted to be. Exciting and how we were after d-day is where I want to be.

I wanted to meet my DD in Europe, the Greek Islands, or Italy again but no, too expensive, not worth it, silly thing to do.

I can't live like that.

Jen,

Ok, so u r vulnerable. We all are. Imagine Pep, Mel, WAT, JL or myself having an A? Entirely possible....but highly improbable.

So that means we are all vulnerable. Listen hon,....no sense in beating yourself up over this. You know you won't have an A? Then that's good. But still being near the OM gives you the heebie jeebies? Well it should. Glad you got feeling to get the heebie jeebies.

Ok Jen.....whatcha' gonna do? You know we love you and want what is best for you and your H. How can we help?

I'd offer a free trip to the islands but I suspect you got quite a beautiful place over there, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hugz,
L.

KiwiJ,

I am as upset about this as anybody - and I realize I shouldn't be. As a BS, I feel it is my right to know the truth - whatever that truth is. I feel I deserve that much from gemela. If gemela decides to go out for drinks with her swimming instructor, I do hope she will tell me even if that means divorce. I have the right to decide too - not just her.

Whether you stay in your M or run off into the sunset with OM, that is your business. You don't owe me anything. I also won't think less of you if you do run off with OM. We each have our lives to live. You have to make your own choices and accept the consequences of those choices. I guess I am trying to apologize to you. You have forced me to re-examine a lot of issues - but they are my issues - not yours. Thank you for your honesty here.

The OM is not an option. He never was and he never will be.

I am being more honest on here than I've probably ever been.

Tonight I'm doing my scrapbooking, H and DS are practicing guitar, I've had a lovely e-mail from DD in France.

Do you really think I want to change any of this?

It's as much me as Rob. We are at a very funny stage of our lives. Middle age. He wants to travel again, just on his terms ie when DD is back here. We are back to him watching TV all day, we are back to having a whole lot of garden rubbish to move, we are back to having a bathroom that needs renovating. These things are important to me.

When I said before that I felt bound to him I meant he is family. That's probably the nicest and best thing you can say about anyone.

I would die away from Rob. I know I would. But how do I know? I've been with him since I was 18.

BTW Orchid, you made my cry. I've always been frightened of you. You made me cry.

I've been amazed at the support of people I never would have expected it from and the writing off of me from people I would have expected better of.

Have you explained to Rob that grouting is an EN for you?

LMAO Traic, yes I have.

I know you're sort of being funny but it really is an EN for me.

My father kept our house and garden in the most immaculate condition you can imagine. It was so important to us as a family. I feel I can't even invite people over. I love company but don't want them to see all the things that need doing. (He won't get a "man" in to do them either. won't spend the money)

BTW no one ever matches my father. This is a very big problem and sounds funny but isn't.

Jen

I am so sad to see you rationalising, Jenny. Because thats what it look like to me.

I didn't miss your last words Jen. But they meant nothing, as you seem to agree in you rpost here.

You had finished previous meetings with OM fervently asserting your disinterest and your poor opinion of him. Yet you found yourself in contact, then conversation, then socialising with OM.

OM didn't believe the finality of your rejection in the past, and your recent actions have completely reinforced that in him mind, I have no doubt.

You swear up and down that you wouldn't have had another affair, but by many smart people's definitions Jenny, that is exactly what you have just done. An EA at least.

That a rage rises within you to deny this should tell you something IMO.

Prescott made me sick too. If you read today that he had been in email contact with his OW, bumped into her at the store then arranged to drink socially with her, and gave the excuses YOU have given to the press, what would you think of him then ?

What do you think he should do then Jenny ?

What would you do if you were his long suffering wife ?

You have always admitted that OM has a huge pull on you, when was that, Jen ? All i have read from you for the past two years have been how very very over him you are; how Rob is your everything, how the thought of OM disgusts you and how you can't see what you ever saw in him.

Then here you say that you know NC is vitally important for you but you met OM previously and hurt Rob because of it. Now you choose to make yourself vulnerable again by communicating with him, meeting him and escalating it.


You say you are nervous about giving yourself completely to Rob ? Are you sure you ar enot just nervous about permanently, irreversably closing the door to OM ?

Jen please do not snap-recommit to Rob with tears and repentence and 'try your best' again to be happy with him. I fear and loathe being "tolerated" more than almost anything else on earth, and I know many men agree with me.

Do not just work out whether you can live happily without OM in your life at all for ever or not, but whether Rob is all you desire. If he is not, please tell him. You both need the change for a content code to your marriage Jen. Not more of this, please.

I care very much. Probably too much. I am sorry that I placed expectations on you that you were not able to meet. It was not fair of me

Well at least you are laughing. That is a positive sign. I don't hire people to do work either. But that is because I believe I will do it better. I didn't say CAN do it better. I said WILL do it better. It is a question of commitment. Don't forget I have a Snap-On tool for EVERYTHING so I do have an advantage.

I do wish you the best. I couldn't help but muse over your comment about wanting things like right after Dday. Gemela forced me to paint the garage with her last weekend. Boring as all get out. I can think of a lot more things I would rather do. Marriage is boring to an extent. That is one of its attractions for me. Not that I like boring. it is knowing that somebody will be there for me regardless of the circumstances. I know there is a point here but I totally don't understand what I am trying to say. I'll stop talking now.

"Nothing like the smell of varnish in the morning". (sorry - that was napalm).

Jen

MB marrige IS boring haven't you noticed ? No hot passion, no recklessness, no arguments only discussion, no annoying habits that make a person human, no disrespectful talk or behaviour so we never grow our envelope of interaction, and instead we are to take our pleasure in 'intimacy' and conversation and in the absence of anger. Shoot me in the head, please !

You may not be built like that Jenny. I know I'm certainly not. But this is just a stopping point on the journey. You think life with OM would be exciting all the time ? After you'd washed his skids and heard him fart or a few month steh excitement would die away. You know like I do that relationship excitement is a transient way to position us to be ready for breeding. Its not a sustainable state of living.

The trick is, I think, to find adventure TOGETHER within your marriage. Do stupid stuff TOGETHER.

I can't do that very much now because we have young children and no babysitters but YOU have that chance.

But any hope of a REAL sustainable adventure starts with you telling Rob doesn't it ?