Jen

I didn't miss it, but it doesn't dilute the fact you betrayed your husband, your family, again. Or the hurt he will feel ONCE YOU TELL HIM.

If this man is such a sh*t, then why have you risked your marriage for someone who has no where near the love your husband has for you?

There are some differences. For example my wife was the poster child for cake eating. She had zero intentions to leave the marriage and probably had to convince herself she was in love so she could feel good with OM. When OM talked about their future plans she used to roll her eyes in secret. There were no plans-----this was a game to ameliorate a MLC. The fact that OM was 3000 miles away was great------the last thing she wanted was for OM to be local. She didn’t want to deal with that stress and aggravation. On d-day she dropped OM in a heartbeat--------no if’s or but’s.

The above is not love I agree.

However, wanting to get out of the marriage very badly to make a life with OM is something entirely different. This is pretty close to being in love.

Rebuilding a marriage with someone that never wanted to end the marriage is a piece of cake when compared to someone that actually wanted out of the marriage. Harley says it can be done, but I am not man enough to do it------------I would bail out.

agreed


well said


ditto

Again I am not pointing fingers. Just wondering about the size of the wounds that we could be causing Jen.

Jen

I've been on a break from MB, and I've rarely posted to you anyway. I haven't posted because, frankly, I've had deep reservations about your situation, so I'm not terribly surprised to find that this has happened.

I believe you really, really, really need to get yourself some serious counselling from a good professional. You need to do it now, before you cause any more damage and pain to yourself and others. This board is a good support for people in pain, but it is not a place to come for the kind of help you need.

None of us here actually 'know' you, and it's dangerous to infer too much from cyber-revelations. However, the things you've done over the last several years, as opposed to the things you've said and the image you present of yourself, suggest that you are deeply conflicted, but are unwilling to confront those conflicts head-on. You come across to me as being stuck in childhood in certain areas of your life, and I think that that stuckness - with all its attendant frustrations and illusions - may be the source of your restlessness and lack of self-image.

Cod psychology apart, you have been the cause of a great deal of pain, and continue to do so. This is not Rob's fault, nor the OM's, nor the OMW's. The fault lies with YOU. You have a dark, childish, selfish side (don't we all?) of which I think you are in heavy denial. Nobody here can help you with that - you need proper professional help and support.

Please find a therapist who you cannot seduce. You have great charm and warmth, Jen. It may be both your strength and your trap.

TA

Does not make her super human.


Can't do it. But I won't hang my emotions and reactions to her indescretions on her.


Should she be banished for her mistake?


Well guess what? To bad she is not the diety that we all thought she was. She is human after all just like the rest of us.

Of course all of our hopes and fears are valid. But to hang them all on Jen is turning our hopes and fears into fantasy.

A demi-god one day and demon the next. That is something I could not handle. Can you?


Of course not.

Aph, Sorry. I am busy and this thread is gathering posts at a phenomenal pace.


They don't ALWAYS work. And the evidence for that IS right here. Agreed they are the best, or at least, a strong chance for success. But that is way different than a guarantee. And boil away all the claptrap, it comes down to the fact that BOTH the BS and WS have to WANT it to work.

My tone is cautionary to Kiwi. Mostly for Rob's sake. Personally, I would hate a wife who stayed and faked everything she felt because it was the "right thing to do" or "not to lose face on the board" or ANY reason for that matter. My statement is to get her to examine CLEARLY is Rob really what she wants. We cannot make her love him. Think of him a bit. For what he has done, he deserves the truth. And this extends farther than letting him in on what happened, it includes knowledge of where her heart truly is at.


Not sure I agree. If we entered into an agreement and you broke it to screw me, did not keep up your end of the bargain and hid it from me, or used my good faith in the agreement to put me at a disadvantage... THAT kind of stuff is not ethical. But if we make an agreement that after time turns out to be NOT what we expected and one of us decides to exit the agreement, well, that is why there are exit clauses in so many things. It is not the breaking itself that is unethical, but the manner in which it is done.

I don't condone what she did. But she did it. The only useful discussion at this point is what next. My opinion - some serious soul searching. Because if she CANNOT keep the agreement, that needs to be aired now than continuing such a disservice. And it would be to her and H.


I am not advocating an excuse for the behavior. That implies she should be off the hook to some degree. Not what I am postulating.

The principles on this board are great. I used them to the best of my abilities to try and save my marriage. And this is a great place to come to be bouyed up when you need it, etc.

And the board answers the question "Can we?" with a resounding yes. Look at the successes.

It also answers "How do we?" well, too.

But it rarely answers "Should we?" Which is important, too. And one that IMO should NOT be answered here. The statement "That marriage SHOULD end..." requires more insight than this forum allows.

My point is simply this... she needs to be sure. Mistakes like this are unacceptable. It needs to be the LAST and she needs to MEAN it, or she needs to walk. All or nothing time. The pot is stirred. This is the perfect time to answer the question of does she want it, frankly, to save her H ANOTHER painful day later.

In English???

SC, i miss you terrible!!! i need friends today and all that is going on around here is such awful sad stuff!!!

ok, i guess that is always what is going on around here but you know what i mean...

care to say hi over here
you don't even have to read all my rambling!!!

This was an activity to provide entertainment (a pastime) to make better (or improve) her middle life crisis.

I hope that makes it clear

Stanley,
Thanks. Didn't recognize MLC. Ghost... here I come...
--SC

Jen,
Thank you for sharing this. I haven't read everything on the thread but got the jest of it...you accidentally had contact w/ OM and continued contact with a couple meetings and saw him for the jerk he is.

I am glad you had this wake up call. To me it just signals that you are a work in progress...there is no coasting in recovery.

I hope by now you have talked to Rob. I hope you continue to work on your progress. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

Thank you for sharing the hard stuff.

Together Alone, do you live in my brain? Cod pyschology? I don't think so. Wow.

I need to take a break from the board for a while.

I need some time in my own head.

Jen:

Not the note I was hoping you'd leave on, if leave is indeed what you're doing.

best,
-ol' 2long

This sentence below from HOOPSIE has stuck in my mind out of
all these many conversations.

It is SO SAD to think Kiwi's huband may not know yet of this latest betrayal.
It is so very Cruel and Sorrowful that he may still be in this state of oblivion. He needs to know. It is the ONLY chance of their marriage surviving...TRUTHFULNESS.

From Hoopsie: "He will feel like a one helluva fool when he finds out that the teeming millions in cyberland have been discussing the betrayal of his marriage while he's snoring obliviously on the couch." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Maybe Rob doesn't care anymore. Maybe Rob is tired of being second best. Maybe Rob doesn't do things around the house or have desire to travel and do exciting things because he is second best. Maybe Rob doesn't care because his wife doesn't break her neck to sneak a peek of him walking his grocery cart down the aisle. Maybe Rob is so tired of the daily walk of being the BS, that he knows and is choosing so what.

Kiwi, that is the perspective of the BH. I'm sorry for your situation that you are in. The longer you wait, the worse it gets, it is an infection, and it gets worse with time not better. You know this.

Well this is exactly right. It doesn't matter to me what KiwiJ does. It is her life and I hope she finds happiness in it. If gemela went for drinks with OM, I hope she would have the decency to tell me that our M was over - because it would be. I am not killing myself in the BS role just to have it all thrown out on a capricious meeting. In my sitch and with my WW, I would want to know and I would want her to start packing her bags. M with me is going to be fun at times and boring at others. If W can't deal with the boring, I need a new W. People tell me that love is a choice. Having fun is a choice too. I had fun cleaning up vomit yesterday. That is because I chose to have fun doing it. Someone who just wants to have fun all the time simply doesn't need to be married.

It is funny how my WW views things now as compared to how she viewed them a few short months ago. When she was in full A, she was like a caged animal in the house. Now she is not. She seems to like the safety of it. And in my WW's case, I KNOW it is a problem of maturity.

Stanley, I think you are quite lucky in some respects. I decided not to read TOW and you should stop. It will twist your mind I think. You keep saying you are not man enough to handle a "real" A. Somehow I seriosuly doubt that. I think you would do just fine although I hope you never have to prove me right.

At some point my WW will have to look at her M and decide if that is the life she wants. Well, okay, the life she wants is probably jet-setting around the globe but she needs to marry someone else to achieve that. I would like an heiress wife who would allow me to quit work and race motorcycles, play golf, etc. but that is not likely either. All I have is gemela and I try to make the best with what I have. If we need to make some adjustments like going zorbing, okay - I'll go. But I will do that knowing I am going to have to clean up even more vomit. Just part of the package.

BTW, I was just going through my emails this AM and I saw a brief period on this tread where someone suggested (or else I incorrectly inferred) that it is Rob's fault for not being more vigilent about where KiwiJ went and that he allowed her to go for her "drinks date". I just simply could not friggin believe that.

Or maybe it is just the we have different concepts of what a "recovered" marriage is and I am assuming Rob believed he was in successful recovery. I will say that I do NOT trust gemela. I may NEVER trust gemela. I won't now for sure until NEVER is actually over and I have died. Then I will post back and let you know the answer.

But I WILL say and I have REPEATEDLY told gemela that I am NOT willing to live my life looking over my shoulder. Living in paranoia - that is not life. That is a living he77. It certainly is NOT marriage - at least not a marriage I want any part of.

I am not recovered (yet). When I doubt gemela about where she has been, she tells me to call and check up on her. I tell her she is missing the point. She STILL does not get it. If I were in Rob's shoes (and I am in a manner of speaking) and I saw my wife get all dressed up in her nicest shoes and best perfume (and I have) to go out on a Friday night and I had to ask her "hey, you aren't by any chance going out to have drinks with the OM are you?", I would file for divorce immediately. I am willing to do a lot of things for my family but I am not willing to sacrifice my self-respect (well - any MORE than I already have) and I am not willing to drive my self to an early grave with anxiety.

Gemela can have all the affairs she wants. Why? Because I can't stop her if she sets her mind that that is what she wants to do. If I find out that she is doing it, she is gone. She knows that. Marriage is not about having affairs. Marriage is about being faithful to the commitment or getting divorced and then finding someone else. It is NOT about shagging the pool boy because life is not quite as exciting as you want and you feel you need a little spice in your life.

My point is that, if Rob needs to be watching over KiwiJ to ensure she does not drop her drawers for OM, Rob doesn't really need to be married to her. It is not his responsibility to keep KiwiJ from having an affair. That is HER responsibility - and apparently one she does not want to accept. Her choice. If she doesn't live up to your expectations, too bad. BTW, there IS NO Santa Claus either. She should, however, tell Rob. To keep it a secret is inexcusable.


One more thing. I, as a BS, was really panicked by this thread at first. Then I realized that my sitch is my own. KiwiJ is not gemela. Some may thin Stanley is hard on KiwiJ. I have no opinion. I will say that if you are a BS and are panciked by KiwiJ's drink date revelation, please read Stanley's posts VERY carefully. He is doing all of us a huge favor. He is reminding us that not all WW's or (F)WW's are alike. KiwiJ may have extenuating circumstances that do NOT apply to our sitches. For that, I am extremely thankful for what Stanley is telling ME. I also have not read TOW. I also do not want to. That would be a little like listening to Linda Blair discuss theology while puking split-pea soup. Gotta consider the source.

Stanley, I find your comment about falling in love with someone else without commiting infidelity rather naive. How on earth is any already married couple meant to know if they are in love if they don't practise some infidelity? There has to be an overlap, some time with the OP in order to get to know them a bit better than saying hello across the room. You said if you fell in love with an OW then you would leave the M, but THAT is not how it works. You would ignore it at first and then it would play on your mind and then you would maybe talk more to the OW and what, you'd know you were in love and decide to divorce Myrta? No, of course not, you hardly know her....and this is why A's are so popular. Most people aren't sure of the OP and so they foster feelings of attraction for the OP living in a twilight zone of neither one thing or the other, and feeding the attraction bit by bit. Then of course the thrill takes hold and feeds the attraction even more. Little bits of contact are presumed innocent by the WS - using their personal judgement, they know it's ok to have coffee with the OP - it's like a fact finding mission. Attraction is so powerful that it covers a multitude of sins, just the way nature intended it to be (ever noticed how you don't feel cold or uncomfortable before an orgasm but you feel it straight after?) I think the same analogy can be applied to attraction in A's - the discomfort of doing wrong is dulled - nature dulls it.

Love isn't even in the equation. The OP is making the WS feel great. Really great. Happy, energetic, positive, alive, attractive, desirable ..... and imo there has to be quite a lot of water under the bridge before the word love is used. Unless the couple are very immature or uneducated.

I also believe that the WW is sexually stimulated by an OM when her H is no longer arousing her. Not his fault. It could be Brad Pit and it wouldn't make any difference. If she is used to having sex with him she will find an OM far more sexually arousing. If she lets the attraction get out of hand that is. I think you are very lucky that Myrta was able to walk away from that. She was using her OM for sexual excitment that she couldn't get with you. You were her wonderful husband - she wanted you too. You for love and comfort and family and him for sex and excitment. It's so weird that we traditionally think of men as being the sleaz bags but I think A's turn women into sleaz bags and it both shocks and delights them.

Anyway poor old Jen eh? Geez you lot have been hard on her. I think she probably wanted the opportunity to drop the exOM. There was maybe a bit of resentment that he wouldn't leave his wife for her and now she had a chance to get even. Nature is very powerful and women are emotional driven beings. Maybe she wanted to be the one to tell him to take a hike. Dangerous game if it was that. But for what it's worth I think she was crazy for telling MBs. If I was willing to do what she did, I would keep it my own business. Unless it was a cry for help. In which case she was very brave.

AN

anyname,

Are you advocating then that having an affair is a good thing in that it lets the WS avoid burning bridges in case the A doesn't pan out? Maybe the WS can keep testing the waters until they get a hit? Gee, and I had been so harsh on my poor WW. I thought she had done something wrong. I really owe her a serious apology - on that planet you are from that is.

Hi anyname

There has to be an overlap, some time with the OP in order to get to know them a bit better than saying hello across the room. You said if you fell in love with an OW then you would leave the M, but THAT is not how it works.

What you advocate here is the freeloader approach to relationships in a marriage : Stay here but continually be on the lookout for a better situation.

That's OK with a house or a job but not, I think , decent within a marriage.

Staying with someone until you find someoene better is sickening selfishness IMO. The thing to do is, work on your marrige. If you aren't happy, divorce and THEN find someone else. Its dreadfully exploitative to stay with someone for comfort while looking for a better situation. Affairs offer temporary excitement that almost never continues on into a relationship , so comparing one's current marriage with an AFFAIR is not a fair comparison.

So the approach you describe doesn't even work very well unless a person wants many affairs to keep the excitement going.

If a marrige isn;t satisfying and can;t be fixed or endured, then divorce and start dating OUTSIDE the excitement of an affair. Thats surely the best way to find along term mate that may be an improvement over your original marriage.