The pastor just called.

I asked him if could arrange a meeting with OM, OMW, and ME, and my WW,

He said he doesn’t think so but he will try.

Asked about meeting with my WW, he said it was short; all she said is that she was sorry
This happened.
He recommended help, and they have a list of counselors.

He recommended me to get IC even if WW doesn’t want to.
I told him I would consider it.

Would that be a good idea at this time, for me to go to counseling, or should I wait?

You going to counseling is smart.
You stop having these 'talks' with your wife is smart.

Protecting your own sense of self is smart.

-----

Why do you supposed your wife hates being around you? You make her feel guilty. It's not what you say or do, it's what she did...and until SHE deals with that, it won't stop.

I'm not recommending you play games, but you have some rights here, right now that you probably don't realize. Right now, if your marriage ended, who is better off, you or her? You are. You have learned from this whole sick event. You have chosen to grow from it. You can use what you know to safe guard your next relationship, and to better show love to whomever you may meet. THAT IS NOT WHAT I HOPE FOR, it is just a statement. I hope it gives you some confidence. She is controlling and manipulating your every thought right now... why not take away her control from you? Give her what she wants...give her NC with you. See how long SHE can maintain it...I would bet ya not too long, with her world collapsing around her... NC with OM, job problems, church problems, UNABLE TO SPEAK WITH HER HUSBAND (which is a much larger issue than you are capable of giving yourself credit for right now--I believe God tells us he makes wives yearn for their husbands--so, just let God work His grace on a husband that is willing to forgive his wife)...

Anyways, I'm sure you don't know me...but, I'm a BH who is now almost 3 years into recovery...or maybe 4, gosh, I can't remember how long it's been...!

-hang in there

Thanks RK,
I think I know you already.
I'm glad you're in recovery, I hope to be their soon.

Joseph, if the Pastor wants to try to arrange a meeting between the four of you, he can do so. But my opinion would be not to do that for a fewreasons.

1. OM and OMW are Christians (from what you said earlier) and, as such, are subject to obeying God no matter what. Therefore, their counseling would be based upon Scripture, not "nice ideas," though practical nice ideas could be incorporated where they support God's commands.

2. Don't get me wrong, nice ideas can certainly help, as many here on MB can attest. But there is a marked difference in counseling because of the issue of "who is in control" of someone's life...self or God?

3. Counseling of any kind is unlikely to have any "positive" affect on your wife at this point and won't have any effect until AFTER she is out of Withdrawal and actually trying, however feebly at first, to recover your marriage.

4. You seem to be suffering from a common ailment of Betrayed Spouses, confused and wildly swinging emotions and grasping at any straw that floats by in the hope that it will save your marriage. If you find that the emotional swings are high and interferring with work or clear thinking, consider getting an anti-anxiety prescription from your Doctor. I used Welbutrin (the same thing used help someone stop smoking) for about 6 months. It really does help smooth out the "highs and lows" and allows you think clearly. So if you think you need something like that, see your Doctor.

5. There should be NO Contact between the "affairees," and no "meeting" where they could attempt to justify their choice for adultery. NO CONTACT for life between the OM and your wife is a consequence of the adultery and the only way to fully recover. It is often very hard for years, for the participants, so the sooner it starts, the quicker they get through Withdrawal, and can begin Recovery.

6. The Pastor is NOT a counselor to you. He has a "vested interest" because of the school. He may have a responsibility to the OM and OMW if they are members of his church, as per his Matthew 18:15-20 responsibility for church discipline of believers.


Now, if you'll forgive me, a few words of "tough love," if I may.

Your marriage is already over and you need to understand that. It ended when your wife chose, for whatever reasons she chose, to break the covenant and commit adultery. Obedience to God has little, if any meaning to her, because the commandment is clear (and not a suggestion that one can accept or reject at will), "Thou shalt NOT commit adultery."

It is over at this point because your wife is NOT repentant, does NOT want to be married to you right now, and is hanging around for her own reasons, most of which center around HER and her fears and emotions, not you, yours, or the children's.

"Plan A" that MB talks about is NOT a marital recovery plan. It is two things that are essential. First, it is a plan of self improvement based upon learning things like what Emotional Needs are and how important they are to all of us...and making the changes that will make you a better, and more desirable, person REGARDLESS of the outcome this mess, recovery or divorce.

Second, it is a way to show your spouse the differences between the fantasy affair that is fading and becoming exposed to all of it's flaws and a person who loves the WS regardless of the betrayal, the "prince" if you will, who was always there but had gone "unnoticed." It provides a "rock" to lean on as the thoes of withdrawal hit and a solid foundation upon which to build a newer, and better, marriage....one founded in new knowledge, earned trust, and true sacrifical love for one another.'

It is a LONG road back. Virtually all of them (Recovery attempts) start from the perspective of "I'll try, but I don't think it's possible. I don't think I could ever love him/her that way again."

Guess what, you do get there and you get beyond there. But it takes commitment, work, and time. It takes patience, learning, enduring, and love.

If you were born again believers I would point you to the sacrifice of love made by Jesus, but that would be inappropriate given your previous response, so I'll simply say that there is an example that can be followed, but only when one comes to realize who Jesus is and what He did for ME. Even that does NOT "guarantee" a recovered marriage, because it always takes BOTH husband and wife, together in faith and together in working toward recovery, no matter how hard it seems at times.

So, while you need to face the fact that the marriage you HAD is already over, you CAN choose to "start over" and begin a new marriage. If you choose that route, be forewarned that for potentially a very long time it will seem as though YOU are doing all the work. You will be. Yes, it IS unfair, but we are not talking about "fairness" here. There is nothing "fair" in adultery, and precious little that is "fair" in a couple trying to recover from the worst disaster to strike any marriage. So tighten the belt, buckle down, batten the emotional hatches, and prepare for a long "battle" to oust the alien and win back the "love of your life."

This is when we each take a long hard look at what our wedding vows meant to US.

And know that you can come here for support anytime, even if it's just a hug. Hugs are GOOD by the way. So are smiles. So is a "good cry" every now and then. We all started out bloodied and beaten, lying of the canvas from a "sucker punch" to the groin and the solar plexus. It was hard to breath, let alone bear the pain and STAND UP.

Joe, you are standing, but your knees are still weak. Time to let your "corner" (those at MB) help get you ready for the next "round."

Hang in there. Keep trying. Mistakes are not fatal.

P.S. If YOU have identified personal flaws that you want to work with an Individual Counselor on, feel free to do so. But what your MARRIAGE needs is Joint Marital Counseling with a trained counselor who is committed to saving marriages.

God bless.

Thanks FH.

this helps a lot.
it's easier said then done but I'm learning.

Some times I wonder why am I doing this.

Yesterday I got home they was having dinner, she didn’t get me anything.
I kissed and hugged the kids, and went upstairs to take a shower, before I go to get dinner.

She stormed in the bathroom, stating that she had to go to a meeting,

Me:
What meeting.
WW:
NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
I F***** hate you I don’t want to see you, OMW is calling people from school telling
Them that OM are having affairs with other people, blablabla.
I can’t be in the same house with you anymore, you have to leave.
Me:
I am not leaving, I didn’t do anything wrong.
WW:
It’s easier for one person to leave then all 3 of us.
Me:
I’m not holding you W; you can leave without the kids.
WW:
I’m their caregiver I will not leave without them you *****???!!
Me:
You are upsetting the kids, I will not argue with you, not in front of the kids.
You can leave if you wish, and I can hire somebody at work and I can take care
Of the kids.

This is when she called me bad names and opened the shower door, I thought she was going to hit me, but she slammed the glass door back so hard it almost shattered.
Then she left the room.
I never seen her that angry before

I finished my shower, went out to the other room, asked her if I have time to go get something to eat before she goes to her meeting, she said I’m not going, I’m to upset
To go to now.

I told her come downstairs calm down and talk to me calmly, if you can’t do it
Wait till you calm down.

I don’t remember what I said, but some important phrases.

I never forced you to stay, I even told you before I knew you had a PA,
“ I lover you with all my heart, but if you want to go be with OM go I’m not holding you back”. Remember?

We both love the kids we both can’t live without them.
WW:
I can’t be in the same house with you anymore I will let you see the kids,
Me:
Good because I’m not leaving the house, you can fix the downstairs bed room and
Make it yours, if you like.
Beside I cannot afford to pay for this house and another place to live,
You will have to get a job.
WW:
Are you threatening me?
Me:
No just telling you the truth.
Moving out will not solve anything, and will not change anything,
I’m not responsible for what OMW is doing; all I did was tell her the truth
Which she was entitled to?
I’m sorry you feel this way, but I can’t help you with that.
I was trying to be a welcome mat for you, I was used as a doormat, and you even wiped your feet on me.
I’m not your father, I was done being disrespected, it is not ok for you to go out and have SF with OM, and me sit down and not do anything about it, I’m not sorry for telling OMW, I’m sorry for my part in our bad marriage before the A.
And I’m sorry you feel this way right now.
I heard you say that you hated me, do you hate me, or you hate yourself?
You are in a very hard place right now, you are very angry, and hurt.
And I never make decisions when I’m that angry, and neither should you.
I need to go out for dinner now I will see you later.

I went and had dinner, came back about an hour later, she was calmer, I tucked the kids in, asked her to join me downstairs for a cup of tea, she said she doesn’t want any,
It would keep her awake all night, I said just a green tea or chamomile tea, NO thanks she said.

She did join me thought, I was very calm and southing, I asked her to talk to me as a friend not her husband, I told her that she should tell her best friend which is my DD’s teacher, before she find’s out from somebody else, and that she would understand,
She said yes like my other ex best friend did, I told her this is my advice, the choice is hers.
I told her that I know exactly how she is feeling; she just lost somebody she loved,
She started crying and stated again that he was the only person that told her she was beautiful and she believed him, I said like I told you before this have nothing to do with him and everything to do with you.
(My w have BDD body dimorphic disorder, in another word she thinks she is ugly)

My wife just turned 40 she is 5’10” 160 lbs, piercing green eyes, flawless skin,
Long dark hair. in another word a stunning gorgeous woman.

And that’s a fact. She just doesn’t believe it.

Then I told her even if one of us moved out let’s say I move out, what difference is it going to make, I ‘m at work all day anyway, I will still want to come home to see the kids
Everyday, so the only difference is that I will be sleeping somewhere else, do you think this is going to change the way you’re feeling now.

No answer, besides I’m tired now I need to go to bed.

Me: Good night, do you need a hug
WW: No.

I did say a lot of other things, like usual I was preaching; I don’t remember what I said
But it wasn’t disrespectful and I was always calm, I was glad that I could calm her down.
for some reason her words don't hurt me anymore,this is
the first time after D day, that I see her cry,
I feel more in control of myself now, I did not cry.
I did feel bad to see her in this state, but I didn't feel
guilty.

This morning I talked to her for a minute about other things she seemed ok.
I don’t know.

Did I talk too much?
I think a lot of things did get through her fog I don’t know
I guess I’ll wait and see.

I just remembered somewhere during the conversation I told her that she was the most important person in my life, she does come before the kids, and that I still love her
And that this marriage is dead, I want to start fresh.
And if she thought that I didn’t care for her then why am I going through all this agony?

Of course she never answered to that.
I don’t know if it was the right time to tell her that, oh well it’s already out,
I should have kept this to myself.

I don't know if NC is on.
I never told her about NC because at this point she doesn't care, she doesn't want to save the marriage.
should I tell her anyway, and how to go on telling her?

Sounds like you've got something going there, 21. You're working the MB program like a pro. You're saying all the right things and hanging on to your temper very well. Good on you, sir!

Thanks LH, I needed that.
Thanks alot.

Don't thank me, 21. You're the man doing all the hard work. You just keep it up, okay? Stay strong, pardner.

Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Your reverse babble was awesome. Great job!

I’m trying LH I’m too terrified right now, she is a very stubborn woman and she
Can keep resentment forever.
But you know what I’m at peace with myself, because I know that I’m doing the right thing.

I don’t know what else to do.
Should I talk to her?
Should I tell her about the fog and the addiction?
Knowing that I already told her it’s an addiction and a fantasy, and she denied it.
Her words where I’ not addicted to anything.

I can’t even ask her for NC because she doesn’t want to work on the marriage
At this point.
She denies having contact, but I have a feeling they’re still talking.
I’m trying to find out.

No, don't bother trying to talk to her about anything more complicated than tying her shoes. She simply is not ready to hear anything remotely connected with "relationship," reconciliation, etc. She's an alien right now, 21, just beamed down from the mother ship and she doesn't speak the same language we do. Logic is completely foreign to her so don't expect to hear anything approaching logical concepts from her. Don't waste your time trying.

No wayward spouse shows any desire to work on the marriage at this point. Don't worry about it. I'm surprised you didn't hear the oldie, but goodie, "I WAS going to work on the marriage, but not now."

The key here is to understand the alien is not going to change back into your wife overnight. If you expect rapid progress, you'll hurt the chances you have to recover your marriage. Patience, patience, patience.

Keep on snooping to find out what the contact is and let OMW know what is happening too. Don't worry about asking for NC at this point. You've already told her about the need for her to stop seeing this other man. There will be plenty of time to reinforce the fact you aren't going to accept a third person in your marriage.

Keep on snooping. You need to know how they are communicating and what they're talking about. OMW will be interested in anything you find out. Keep in contact with her. She's your strongest ally at this point.

Hang in there, 21. Things are percolating in Fantasyland. It's not nearly as wonderful a place as it was. They're having to deal with a lot of adversity and splinters are beginning to show up in the facade.

[color:"red"] Should I tell her about the fog and the addiction? [/color]

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

if you do ... wear a cup !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> ... she may kick you

NO

don't teach
preach
blahblahblah

she cannot hear you until she extracts her head outta her wazoo

Pep

Hi, Joe...

Thank you for saying you're terrified right now...you know you're in that fear place when you say

"I don’t know what else to do."

You are a human being, not a human doing. This was important to learn when I was in your shoes. Listen to LH...he's right...your fear wants you to take action to stop your pain and FIX this...get this lesson...fear is giving you half your pain...breathe and know this isn't "fixable" it's livable...for right now.

Be you, Joe...get to know you deeper, all of you...your first reaction to fear is to get rid of the fear...yet you are not panicking...you're not jumping into the future...you are looking at the present...this is great, isn't it? Different reaction maybe, a little?

You are monitoring...do your checks only a set number of times a day, calmly...

The inbetween times, breathe deeply, smile, love yourself...play with your children...choose your thoughts...practice choosing your thoughts...

Do not allow yourself to educate her...that's the fear...the wishful part of you which believes, "If only she could see"...accept she can't see right now...know that...believe it...like LH says...and instead, share what you know about you...

"I feel terrified. Do we have any milk left?"

Small stuff...true stuff to you...not her.

No educating on any subject but your own thoughts, feelings and beliefs...

You are calm...you are used to having her in your head...spilling your thoughts...contain them...they are yours. Keep your mind on them...they are clues to you about you...worth knowing. Breathe.

You are doing well...there is no next step...stay respectful...separate and equal...each day feels like a week or more...it isn't...it's one day. You're on pain-time...long, drawn out and can be dizzingly slow...breathe more...hug, congratulate, say "I love you" to YOU more...

Be present when your WW is present...stop your expectations...see her as new...which won't be difficult...and do not judge.

You're doing this, Joe. You are on a hero's journey...and yes, hero's are terrified, enraged, vulnerable, frustrated and through this journey, they learn why...they learn their limits and their power...you are on this journey.

LA

ROFL!!!!

Oh, Pep...you're pricless. I'm gonna start calling you Master...card.

LA

Hi LA.
did you read my morning post on what happened yesterday?

she is a little calmer today, should I tell her that what
she said yesterday didn't hurt me and she is welcome to vent her
anger any time she wants.
because this is the truth, I felt in control, espacialy
when she started crying, and I didn't wonder why.
is that bad?
why did I feel good when I saw her tears?
did I stoped loving her?
or I just got stronger?
like I said I am in some sort of peacful place right now,
not that it doesn't hurt anymore but I'm at peace knowing
that I'm doing the right thing.
I don't know if I'm making any sense.

Do I love her or it’s the competitiveness in me?
I never backed down from a challenge in my life.
Do I think it’s a challenge?
Yes?
I feel good now because I think I’m in more control then before.
I'm just thinking outloud.

I was going to give her or maybe read to her this letter
I wrote.
I know you are in a very bad spot right now.
I know exactly how you’re feeling. I’ve been feeling this way for a long time.

I know how I’m feeling, and I believe I’m doing the right thing.

When the war started back home I was 13, dad was overseas, we couldn’t get in touch with him for one whole year. I had to grow up fast and be the man of the house and I did.
I took care of my family, 4 siblings and my mother. I had to carry a gun to protect
Our house.

31 years later I find myself facing another kind of war, only this one hurts way more, it hurts without a wound, it hurts without a cut, and it hurts without ever being shot.

It’s still affecting my family, my new family my own family.

If trying to keep my family together, is wrong then I don’t want be right.
If loving my wife and forgiving her, no matter what she has done is wrong, I never want to be right.
If what I’m doing is wrong I don’t want to be right.

I used to love you for what you do, this was judging you and I’m sorry for that.
Now I love you for who you are, and it feels great, it even hurts better,
Knowing it’s the right way the only way to love.

You’re anger outburst didn’t hurt me that day, it was you’re own emotions and you shared them with me, for the first time in our life you shared you’re feelings with me.
Feel free to vent you’re anger at me anytime you want if it makes you feel better,
But please not in front of the kids.
S was looking at you in shock like who is this woman, yelling at daddy,
DD came back later and you heard her ask me why mommy said mean things to you daddy?
I did not answer, I didn’t know what to answer.



I've been avoiding talking to her lately, she is always angry.
should I give her some space?
should I stay away?
should I go out see some friends?
should I take the kids out? she wouldn't like this, but I need to spend some time with the kids, without the negative energie she is projecting.

21 -

Your didn't stop loving her. You changed. And your love for her changed. No less deep. Just different. Independent. It's a healthy love. Same thing happened to me. I went to the center of the storm and got calm. Ghandi. EVERYTHING felt different.

Don't be discoraged when you get sucked back into fray. It will happen but it will only be temporary. Now that you know this new way to live and practice, practice, practice it every day, you'll never again have to live in the fury of the storm. With no center. At the mercy of the winds.

Are you with me? Cause I'm following you. VERY similar situation.

Your response to the big night was perfect. Great 'centered' speak. You're an inspiration.

I wouldn't tell her she's welcome to vent her anger. Tell her she's welcome to SHARE. And that it's safe for her to share with you without fear of you judging her. That's all. Leave the hurt out of it. But if you DO hurt, tell her. Hurt is OK. Judging is not.

Marriage is owning then sharing your feelings. LA taught me that. BTW I'm an LA protoge so you'll hear me use a lot of her concepts. They work for me and they'll work - are working I can see it! - for you.

You're doing a fantastic job. And LA is right. What you are doing is NOTHING short of heroic. A hero's journey is difficult, lonely and full of self-doubt. Luckily we both have this board to act as a guidepost. Great isn't it!!

[color:"red"]"I feel terrified. Do we have any milk left?" [/color]

I am in love with this approach!

EGG-ZEE-LENT'E

Pep

bump